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View Full Version : Features that should be in Lightwave 8



harhar
03-13-2003, 01:37 PM
Interactive Previewer:
Newtek should merge Viper with G2's interactive previewer and create a much more powerful one, one that support the preview of much more features. Mabey even scrap Viper altogether and replace it with G2's interactive previewer, and it should be extensively developed. It is something that no other 3d program has, and should be Newtek's focus of development.

User Defined Undo Redo limit:
more undo control needed in layout and modeler.

OpenGl Animation render:
like the one in Cinema 4d.

EXR format support:
EXR will be more popular than HDRI

More layout-Modeler integration:
User should be able to send modeler files to layout without thge need to save first. It can be easily implemented by save thje model file to a temp directory. And The save of scene files in layout should automatically save all object files.

Curve to polyline conversion:
convert a spline curve to polygon line, useful for many many things.

Displacement as a standard material editor parameter:
User should be able to apply displacement in modeler. And by making it a standard material editor parameter, it'll be easier for users.

Expression Editor Exit button:
should be implemented to avoid confusion.

Ability to select & delete surfaces:
User defined surfaces should be deletable, and all the polygons should be selectable.

Sculpt Tool:
This is great modeling tool. operations such as push and pull should be added with tweakable stength, depth and area of influence.

2 sided polygon extrude:
polygons created by the extrude operation should be forced into 2 sided.

Instancing:
For the render of massive amount of identical objects. Mabey just bundle HD instance with Lightwave 8. Replaceit its raytrace algorithm with that of Lightwave's of course.

Intelligent polygon reduction:
The one in Lightwave right now sucks horribly.

Intelligent Selection Tool:
A 3 dimensional area can be defined by the cursor so that everything outside the area disappears. Great for select and tweak polygons that are hidden in the depth of vertices.

Skelegon Mode:
When in this mode, only skelegon is seletable. And activates skelegon X-ray in modeler.

Multiple level of subpatch detail display:
great for complexs models that need to be subpatched.

Imporved Area Shadow:
it should be less grainy.

Interactive UV mapper:
like the UV unwrap in 3ds max.

Analytical UV mapping method:
UV map should be calculate so as to avoid texture distortion.

Real-Time Shaders:
more pixel shader & vertex shader support.

Image Viewer Pixel Filter support:
User should be able to apply pixel filters through image viewer and image editor so as to get fast feedback.

Photoshop Filters support:
Lightwave should be able to recognize and use all photoshop filters.

Motion Blur Pixel Filter:
fast fake motion blur would be very useful.

Fast preview for sky tracer 2:
There's one for skytracer 1, but none for 2.

Melt Function:
Like the one in Messiah.


Renderer Improvements:

Automatic ray tracing acceleration using the BSP algorithm and hierarchical grid algorithm.

More anti-aliasing options, such as adaptive recursive oversampling, adaptive recursive undersampling and low-discrepancy jittering to avoid "staircasing'' at sharp edges

full Quasi Monte Carlo low-discrepancy sampling avoids "random noise'' and ensures faster convergence to the correct solution. Algorithms are completely deterministic (no animation flickering due to randomness; re-rendering a frame produces exactly the same result).

motion blur should be visible in reflections and refractions.

shadows and caustics of moving objects or moving lights should be correctly motion-blurred.

Chromatic Abberation should be supported by the renderer.

sub-pixel displacement that resolves even the finest detail of the displacement map, without excessive memory consumption.

JohnL
03-13-2003, 02:19 PM
Is this a feature list for LW 8.5b? ;)

Panikos
03-13-2003, 03:28 PM
I suggest you read some similar threads in Feature Requests.
You will find solutions for some of your requests.

To start with, MotionBlur is visible in reflections.

hrgiger
03-13-2003, 09:45 PM
Worley labs is one of LW's better plug-in developers so I doubt that Viper will see much more advancement, especially to the power of G2. I think they're trying not to step on developers toes like they have in the past. I don't think that LW will put something into LW that will make G2 obsolete. It would be great to see some kind of merger between the two though. Please, just no G2 lite.

Modeler has 128 levels of undo. IF you need more then that, it's time to scrap that crap and start over. I agree that Layout could use more. I believe there is a script that will do this for you though right now.

There is a plug-in called curve2poly that will change the curve into a string of two point polygons. Especially useful for making hairguides for sas and saslite.

I can't imagine how having a skelegon x-ray would be that useful in modeler. Just build your skelegons in a seperate layer with your model in the background for reference until you're happy with them, and then cut and paste them into the same layer as the model. Would work just the same as what you're talking about, and only skelegons would be selecteble.

Subpatch Display modes? You know you can change the subpatch display resolution in both modeler and Layout already, right?

As far as rendering improvements: I believe that motion blur is a post process effect so it suffers the same problem as sasquatch in that it will not show up in reflections, because it's not actually in the scene to reflect. Hopefully, somebody will come up with a dirty trick to fake this though. Especially hoping that for Sasquatch 2.

DaveW
03-13-2003, 11:44 PM
There already is a motion blur pixel filter, it's called vector blur.

PG_Melt is a free melt plugin.

Subpatch has the regular disply/render settings in the object panel and there is a level of detail modifier in the custom object list.

The fast preview for sky tracer 2 is supposed to be viper. How fast it is depends on your settings and your computer.

I don't understand why you want extruded polys to be forced to be double sided.

I don't know about caustics, but shadows from moving lights are motion blurred, just not for distant lights.

Panikos
03-14-2003, 03:33 AM
Distant Lights emmit parallel rays of light. If you move a Distant Light the shadow doesnt move, only rotation plays a role here.

Think of a Distant Light as a vector towards a direction.

Valter
03-14-2003, 11:15 AM
I love this new improvement. I hope that "ghost" dept of LW development like too.

Freak
03-15-2003, 03:09 AM
Yeah many things you asked for already exist....
But overall i agree with a quite a few of your suggestions...

Better Viper! Yep agreed.... Or at the very least, remove the defect of LW not being able to share information with other plugins) that way G2, could replace Viper, and see shaders and everything else that Viper can.

Integrated Instancing! (not HD's version)
Sub Pixel Displacement, or 16Bit Dis Maps at least.

Hub Integration, YES!!!!
Thats really my only quibble with the hub, i need to manually save a file, even when i just want to quickly test....
(hmmm, i think i just thought of an Lscript i can make tonight)

OGL animation render (another 5.6 feature they took away from us) Really they could just put back in all the goods they took out of 5.6 and i'd be happy! Flush Command, and PS filters were also back in 5.6, also i can think of another 20 5.6 features, that should never of been removed.

Real Time Shaders, etc... OGL2 or DX9 support...
And while we are there, lets add Renderman shader support
(although from my own attempts at writing one, it would be quite slow)

Image Viewer Pixel Filter support, (that actually sounds like a great idea to me.... Not sure how possible it would be, but i can't think of a good reason why not)

mattc
03-15-2003, 09:24 AM
As far as polygon reduction goes, Marvin Landis's Qemloss3 is available as giftware. It does an extremely good job on poly reduction.

2 side poly extrude...well, HDPumpit, Eki's Q-thickener.....

The multiple levels of subpatch is essentially heirarchical subd's and I gree, it'd be nice to have them. :)

Regards
Matt

hrgiger
03-15-2003, 12:58 PM
Have you guys seen the latest 3D world magazine? They ask users of different software what they would like to improve about them. Lightwave is one of them of course.

gonzalo
03-16-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by harhar

Renderer Improvements:

Automatic ray tracing acceleration using the BSP algorithm and hierarchical grid algorithm.


Are you sure LW is not doing that already? I am not.



More anti-aliasing options, such as adaptive recursive oversampling, adaptive recursive undersampling and low-discrepancy jittering to avoid "staircasing'' at sharp edges

This is already somewhat present in Lightwave, as Adaptive AA. Not as comprehensive as other vendors, but I bet you never noticed before.



full Quasi Monte Carlo low-discrepancy sampling avoids "random noise'' and ensures faster convergence to the correct solution. Algorithms are completely deterministic (no animation flickering due to randomness; re-rendering a frame produces exactly the same result).


This is never a problem with Lightwave's moblur or antialias algorithm, since it is not stochastic.



motion blur should be visible in reflections and refractions.

It is. Lightwave's AA/moblur algorithm gives you that for free. You might want the opposite (ie. no moblur) as a way to speed up renders, thou.



shadows and caustics of moving objects or moving lights should be correctly motion-blurred..


Shadows are. Caustics not sure.



Chromatic Abberation should be supported by the renderer.


Not sure what exactly this is.



sub-pixel displacement that resolves even the finest detail of the displacement map, without excessive memory consumption. [/B]

This is indeed missing. But if it is already hard to do for scanline rendering, it can be really, really, really hard to do for raytracing.

harhar
03-16-2003, 09:59 AM
full Quasi Monte Carlo low-discrepancy sampling avoids "random noise'' and ensures faster convergence to the correct solution. Algorithms are completely deterministic (no animation flickering due to randomness; re-rendering a frame produces exactly the same result).

This has nothing to do with motion blur or anti-aliasing. This is a radiosity/global illumination algorithm that doesn't flicker in rendered animatio, unlike the one in Lightwave right now, which flickers a lot.

Sensei
03-22-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by harhar
Photoshop Filters support:
Lightwave should be able to recognize and use all photoshop filters.

We are working on it right now.

It will be called ImageFilterFactory and loads *.ffl and *.afs files. There is 3rd party tool for converting *.8bf files into *.afs files, so if it'd convert them correctly, there should not be problem to use them with ImageFilterFactory too.

With this plug-in you will be even able to create your's own filters, and immediately see the result in LightWave, as you might see in the attached screen-shots.

To my surprise it is working quite fast even though formulas are not directly compiled to x86 assembler (so there are still chances there will be Macintosh port).

The first dead-line for this plug-in was end of March but now I am not so sure about it. Anyway, when it will be released news will be send to Flay.com and other CG news servers and to this forum to LW - 3rd Party group.

If you would like to see this plug-in built-in LightWave v8, talk to NewTek...

Valter
03-23-2003, 02:31 PM
whoooaaaaaa!!!! :D



great man!!!

I hope this plug-in have suport to Field rendering and allow users to pick objects or surface to apply it

btw great plugin


excuse my english

Sensei
03-23-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Valter
whoooaaaaaa!!!! :D



great man!!!

I hope this plug-in have suport to Field rendering and allow users to pick objects or surface to apply it

btw great plugin


excuse my english

I am afraid it does not supports field rendering unless LightWave will takes care for it by itself nor allows user to pick objects or surfaces to apply it on. It works as ImageFilter so the above two things are not available.

But for image processing only these surfaces you want you might try other ours plug-in MatteBySurface, here is URL:

https://secure.reg.net/product.asp?ID=12394&TemplateID=-1.

Obviously if you would like ImageFilterFactory process image or image-sequence used for surface textures, yeah, it's possible.

Valter
03-23-2003, 06:56 PM
ok thanks sensei:)
but in my case I need of field rendering.

I could apply this plugin after render of my main animation rendered frame by frame, but in this case I think call afterfx to do it is more fast.

Could Image filter factory to destroy my alpha channel??


thanks and good look

Mylenium
03-23-2003, 11:26 PM
Why, oh why? Really, I do not understand why someone is wasting manpower on a plugin just to use Photoshop or FilterFactory style image manipulation. Just in case no one has ever heard: There is a technique called comping that will pretty much allow the same "magic" but with much more control. BTW, the old 8bf-loader was always pretty much useless (it worked only with a very small number of filters, filter controls were missing etc.) and I can only assume that even this new tool will not be able to overcome this problems.

Mylenium

faulknermano
03-24-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Mylenium
Why, oh why? Really, I do not understand why someone is wasting manpower on a plugin just to use Photoshop or FilterFactory style image manipulation. Just in case no one has ever heard: There is a technique called comping that will pretty much allow the same "magic" but with much more control.
Mylenium

mylenium, i think you're missing an aspect of image filtering. image filtering does not necessarily mean manipulating the "final rendered image" only. it can also mean manipulating loaded texture images as well.

i find being able to use photoshop filters in this way to be a distinct advantage than the alternative we have now: which is to process the image file in photoshop, save it, and then reload it back to the image editor.

Sensei
03-24-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Valter
ok thanks sensei:)
but in my case I need of field rendering.


Quick research confirmed that plug-in can check no problem whether user enabled field rendering and whether even or odd frames are first, so if LightWave does field rendering at too early stage (this needs more research) there are still chances to fix this in ImageFilterFactory.


I could apply this plugin after render of my main animation rendered frame by frame, but in this case I think call afterfx to do it is more fast.

Why do you think so? ImageFilterFactory is integrated with LightWave, receives float data originally stored by LightWave (i.e. more precission). Also it does not needs saving frames and loading them.

Also if you would like to apply FilterFactory filter for image texture, without using ImageFilterFactory (what you have currently), you need to preprocess images in image processing software and save every of them as separate file.


Could Image filter factory to destroy my alpha channel??

In what sense destroy?

ImageFilterFactory leaves alpha channel untouched if Alpha Formula is just 'a' (the all 3rd party filters I saw, because original FilterFactory does not allows editing this parameter). But in ImageFilterFactory you can no problem change this formula for whatever you want.

Sensei
03-24-2003, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by Mylenium
Why, oh why? Really, I do not understand why someone is wasting manpower on a plugin just to use Photoshop or FilterFactory style image manipulation.

We had no better things to do ;).

If you have the ideas for some nice and useful plug-ins I am open for them and listen...


Just in case no one has ever heard: There is a technique called comping that will pretty much allow the same "magic" but with much more control. BTW, the old 8bf-loader was always pretty much useless (it worked only with a very small number of filters, filter controls were missing etc.) and I can only assume that even this new tool will not be able to overcome this problems.

Why do you think so that if this old plug-in had some problems, incompatibilities with original FilterFactory, ImageFilterFactory will have them too?

It's my job to make ImageFilterFactory having not such bugs...

Anyway, ImageFilterFactory works with text files, not directly on compiled *.8bf filters. So, if you find formulas for filters on Internet you will be able to use them.

I will appreciate any suggestions, if you have any.

Mylenium
03-24-2003, 09:13 AM
Well idea for plugins:

- universal L-System (not just for plants)
- fillet/ blend tool (round, stepped, tangential)
- interactive rounding
- fully integrated dynamics (rigid, soft, rope, cgds...)
- event driven particles (like Thinking Particles in C4D and MAX)
- crowd simulation
- really useful deformers for Layout
- fluid simulation (volumes, surfaces)

etc....

I'm quite sure, I will find tons of other ideas in the dark depths of my brain.

Mylenium

harhar
03-24-2003, 02:42 PM
don't forget:

integrated subsurface scattering shader;
integrated skin shader;
anistropic shader;
integrated network render manager (like alfred in PRman)
nurbs/implicit surface based universal fluid system
quasi monte carlo radiosity
real time display support all directX 9 features
fully interactive 2d compositor (like XSI)
parametric human primitives (like XSI)
adaptive subdivision surfaces
advanced cel shader
flash export
nurbs primities
complete nurbs modeling tools include blend, fillet, merge, snipe, stitch, extrude, loft, trim
Surface construction from point clouds
automatic surface repair with advanced analytical algorithm
bone to skelegon conversion
deformers: lattice, cage, shear, shrink wrap, bend along curve
built in cloth designer
automatic rig generation (like XSI)
built in advanced lip syncing module.
vector painting directly on 3d geometry and analytical UV map generator that generates distortion free texture maps.
parametric shader editor
built in fluid shader (like Maya)
built in ocean surface generator (like Maya)
built in photo modeling tools
nurbs to polygon conversion module
Particles that can slide down the surface and drip off the edge (like Houdini 6)
ability to paint bump, displacement, specularity, transparency, thickness.
Render EXR images
ability to build complex shading networks
efficent asset browser
volumetric materials
Hypervoxel 3
import bip files
advanced noise shading reduction

Valter
03-24-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Sensei
Quick research confirmed that plug-in can check no problem whether user enabled field rendering and whether even or odd frames are first, so if LightWave does field rendering at too early stage (this needs more research) there are still chances to fix this in ImageFilterFactory.
hehehe Cool!!!:D The hope is last to die... Let's to work!!! :D

Originally posted by Sensei
Why do you think so? ImageFilterFactory is integrated with LightWave, receives float data originally stored by LightWave (i.e. more precission). Also it does not needs saving frames and loading them.
ok

Originally posted by Sensei
In what sense destroy?
ImageFilterFactory leaves alpha channel untouched if Alpha Formula is just 'a' (the all 3rd party filters I saw, because original FilterFactory does not allows editing this parameter). But in ImageFilterFactory you can no problem change this formula for whatever you want.
This was my doubt about alpha channel and Image Filter Factory. :)

Sensei look that http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51823

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=719

Sensei
03-25-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by harhar
real time display support all directX 9 features

This is rather impossible. LightWave is written to be as much portable as it's only possible, so it uses OpenGL except a couple places where it does not fit. In such places DirectDraw or GDI on Windows is used.


adaptive subdivision surfaces

By this you understand subpatch level controlled by f.e. weight-map? This definitely can't be done in separate plug-in because plug-ins can't generates additional polygons in Layout while rendering scene (this is a shame to be honest)...


Surface construction from point clouds

Spray points in Modeler, press button and you get 3D object? That could be done, but I don't think so it's really useful and somebody would buy it...


bone to skelegon conversion

Did not DaveW say you that there is free plug-in which does it?


built in cloth designer

I was thinking about it for a while, but to be honest don't know where to start...

If it would be DisplacementHandler, user would have to takes care how the whole cloth looks like before wearing it on target object. Or there would to be really complex Modeler plug-in which does it.

If it would be ImageFilter or PixelFilter it'd be as much limited as SasLite and Sasquatch (you would not see cloth after ray reflection or refraction on some object).


built in advanced lip syncing module.

This is not a big problem, it could be normal DisplacementHandler...


parametric shader editor

You mean ImageFilterFactory but for pixel shaders? hmmm... Sounds nice. I will think about it, especially because I could reuse parts of ImageFilterFactory ;).


built in photo modeling tools)

What do you mean by this? Did you check ImageForm and ImageSeqForm?


ability to paint bump, displacement, specularity, transparency, thickness.

LightWave is too limited it this area. 3rd party plug-in would have to create and save image maintained by LWImageUtil global after every modification and load it again but as image maintained by LWImageList, maybe when Pentium4 will be around 5-10 GHz it will be possible at reasonable speed ;).

It's unbelieveable there is no functions to modify existing LWImageList (which are used for textures, backdrops and others)...

Sensei
03-25-2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Valter
hehehe Cool!!!:D The hope is last to die... Let's to work!!! :D

Don't be so happy about it... Currently I am smarter than yesterday because I know the everything must be done inside ImageFilterFactory and this looks like a really major task... If you are the only one who needs it on the world, I am afraid the work (and money) involved in it won't return to me...

To clarify this, ImageFilterFactory already receives image which has one row even and another one odd or vice versa. So the plug-in to handle it correctly would have to somehow clone image and double height them, so they would be single frames, then process them, one by one. And at the end integrate correct lines from both of them.


Sensei look that http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51823


I don't think so there would be problems with creating this...


http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=719

Quickly, forget about virtual mirrors... LightWave does not have tool classes which could be used for simulating this process... They would have to be enabled all the time and receives the all user events and LW internal events, especially addPoint() and other low-level one...

Valter
03-25-2003, 11:34 AM
ok thanks sensei.

I hope that you do this plugin (new edgetools) for us :D


later

BeeVee
03-28-2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Yeah many things you asked for already exist....
OGL animation render (another 5.6 feature they took away from us) Really they could just put back in all the goods they took out of 5.6 and i'd be happy! Flush Command, and PS filters were also back in 5.6, also i can think of another 20 5.6 features, that should never of been removed.


Umm, you can save out an AVI animation of your OpenGL viewport in this version, you just have to be aware that some codecs want horizontal and vertical pixel sizes that are divisible by eight or 16.

B

Lightwolf
04-04-2003, 08:43 AM
One thing I've requested a couple of times:
OpenGL render at the camera size, saved a single frames to disk. (Basically an openGL render mode).
That would be so cool, quick renders of animatics to pass on to the editing department. It would make a big difference on tightly scheduled jobs.

Sensei
04-14-2003, 09:41 PM
I just wanted to inform you that we found an quite easy way to implement field rendering into ImageFilterFactory, it was easier than I thought the first time.

But I hope so you are aware that in certain circumstances (it depends on whether filter uses src() function or not) this will produce a little worser result than normal rendering?

BeeVee
04-15-2003, 01:37 AM
For an OpenGL animatic you can render a preview and always chop out the frame you want from the resulting anim...

B

Lightwolf
04-15-2003, 02:18 AM
Ben,

I know, there are a couple of caveats though:
I can't exactly define the rendering res (let's say I want to do a very rough composite, or I want to go straight into my editing system). Also, I can't render to any file format, like sequential single image files, which can be a pain to when going to an editing system.
You just need more time and can't automate tasks as easily.

Cheers,
Mike