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kfinla
02-23-2004, 05:39 AM
I'm just wondering when a fully stable, or as stable as 7.5a version of LW will be out. I've heard rumours that Apple's putting out OS 10.3.3 and the graph editor will be fixed with the openGL re-write, I've heard Newtek is releasing a 7.5d patch, that was being beta tested weeks ago, and I hear sometime before Christmas LW8 will be out.

Im just wondering if anyone knows how much longer all these solutions will take. Its been weeks or months in some cases that we've been waiting for a fix.

Darth Mole
02-23-2004, 08:27 AM
The LW 8 launch offer runs out at the end of March, so it should appear some time before then. Otherwise the offer isn't any damn good to anyone...

mlinde
02-23-2004, 09:17 AM
Actually, I'm sure a lot of people know the answers to these questions. The problem is whether they are in a position to tell anybody. People who beta test software sign NDAs with the developer, and are unable to discuss anything about the software. That includes those folks who beta test OS X, Lightwave, or any other application. They may know something about functionality, but the only people who know possible release dates for anything are the big bosses (like Andrew Cross, at Newtek).

IgnusFast
02-23-2004, 09:53 AM
I have to bang this drum too! I don't even use the graph editor, and Lightave as it stands is completely unusable. With the user interface refusing to respond at random intervals until I quit and relaunch the program, it's bascially worthless.

PLEASE ISSUE A PATCH ASAP!!!

modent
02-23-2004, 01:51 PM
I have 21 copies of this program that I cannot use. Its so frustrating. Soon the powers that be are going to ask me about all the money spent on this software. The only thing I can say is that I bought a product that doesnt work and I don't know when it will ever get fixed.:mad:

Beamtracer
02-23-2004, 08:25 PM
Lightwave 7.5 works fine with Jaguar, but not with Panther.

The fix for Panther is taking a long time. Newtek was going to release a graph editor patch, but it doesn't seem to have eventuated. Maybe they're waiting for OS 10.3.3 to arrive which apparently fixes it.

A solution to make Lightwave compatible with Panther should have come long ago.

blabberlicious
02-24-2004, 01:16 AM
Thanks for that crumb of news Beamtracer...

NT, you OWE it us to at keep us informed about this release - particularly after the debacle of the Q4 release date.

Please! Enough with the Powertool plugins 're runs' or the jaw droppng enhancements to the 'Additionals' Tab in Layout...... :-)

Please, publish a list what's (being) fixed in 7.5c and a status report on the Panther fix.

Until you do, your credibility with this mac user will continue to plummet.

Frankly, I'm not interested in upgrade deals, or 64 bit roadmaps at this stage -

I'd just like to be able to use LW on the current mac PLATFORM.

It's totally unstable - even modeller cr*ps ouut after 15 minutes and 'forgets' paths to plugins, etc.

Maddening!

Please!

Ge4-ce
02-24-2004, 01:20 AM
Indeed.. but I allready gave it up.. This is no good marketing NEWTEK!! I just wait.. and I wait.. I'm without graph-editor for about 5 months now!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to drive to a different location where they had PC's with lightwave on it when I had to use the Grapheditor.. I have an expensive LW on an expensive Mac and was not able to use it for 5 months.. I wonder how much it has cost me...

blabberlicious
02-24-2004, 01:39 AM
I think us mac users needs to petition NT - anyone fancy organising that?

How best to go about it?

From my experience, the only time NT have responded to these sort of concerns is when we marr the 'gee, great video Proton' posts from the hobbyist crowd with a reality check about our legitimate concerns.

Even then they just split the thread off into it's usual, unanswered mac ghetto.

Workers! Rise up!

Ge4-ce
02-24-2004, 02:27 AM
mmm.. You know.. Apple will come out with its 10.3.3 wich is in final status right now.. It should be lauched early next week or this week.. then the graph editor and other OpenGL stuff will be fixed.. too bad the first verion was pulled because of 20" iMac problems.. But Hey.. that's why they beta-test it..

It sure is not right from newtek to let us in the cold for that long. but hey.. Since Apple solves the issue.. My guess is, it is also Apple's fault that some things in LW don't work anymore..

They changed something in panther : LW broke..
they have changed something in 10.3.3 : LW fixed..

So imagine Newtek know this, and they probably do, they just waited for Apple to fix their Mistakes!

But nevertheless.. We were out of Graph editor for 5 months..

But to reply to your post.. It isn't worth it anymore to start a Newtek Rant "again" because of this problem..

My opinion: it would be better that Newtek played a little more Open Book with us... so we know what we're up to..

blabberlicious
02-24-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce


My opinion: it would be better that Newtek played a little more Open Book with us... so we know what we're up to..


That's my point.

All I want to know what's being fixed - because a lot crucial stuff in 7 didn't work properly for mac, and I want some reassurance about the nature of the update.

Not unreasonable.

Boo!
02-24-2004, 03:33 AM
...jus a quicky
im usin 7.5 on a G4867 Ati 9800 card in Jaguar and im fine with the graph editor.
my boss is fed up with the wait of the new G5's and all these updates that are meant to solve problems out. would it be possible to do what i have to on the G4 and just render everythin out on the G5 without touchin a thing except F9/F10...???
sorry if this may seem like a backward question but my Boss is goin crazy over here due to dead lines...

thanks.:D

Ge4-ce
02-24-2004, 03:46 AM
yeah.. that would be possible!.. That's a method I use regulary..

Just twitch everything in Graph editor on a G4 using Jaguar, then open the scene on the G5 and render it..

No problem.. should work fine..

It even works for a lot of plugins..

if you only have one sasquatch license, tweak it on that one computer, installing and rendering of those plugins on other computers is possible.. Only editing the settings would be possible on 1 computer..

However, make sure that you have the same settings, plugins installed on the G5.. otherwise you could end up with weird results!

Boo!
02-24-2004, 05:08 AM
...thanks dude!:D :D

Beamtracer
02-24-2004, 05:41 AM
I think Newtek sincerely believed that LW8 would be released late last year. Something happened that made them delay it. Maybe they wanted to fix more bugs, who knows.

Because of this delay, in January Newtek made a decision to release a patch to fix the graph editor in LW7.5 so that it would work with Panther.

Then Apple recently displayed beta versions of OS 10.3.3 which apparently fixes the graph editor anyway (according to other people's posts on this forum). So, maybe Newtek is just waiting for Apple to release 10.3.3 which fixes the problem. No point releasing a patch when Apple is about to do it anyway.

Remember when Apple released OS10.2.8 (I think that was the one) in early November last year? Then they pulled it a few hours later because it had a bug that caused some hard drives to erase. It's possible that Apple is also being very cautious, and bug testing 10.3.3 more thoroughly, thus taking more time.

IgnusFast
02-24-2004, 06:24 AM
What about one of the older problems, like the mouse input mode not working? Or my major issue (which is apparently not as common, granted) where the interface just stops responding? I haven't heard boo regarding *those* issues, and the mouse one is downright ANCIENT!

Moser95814
02-24-2004, 01:27 PM
I am currently enrolled in an advanced LW course at my Community College and we are in the process of upgrading from G4"s to G5's in our "Mac Lab". We have one so far and the rest are on the way. At first, most of us were very excited about the G5's until we started trying to use LightWave and experienced the same problems previously mentioned in this and other threads. PhotoShop is also crashing even doing simple renders running under Panther.
Needless to say, our enthusiasm has waned considerably and our professors are exasperated considering the huge investment the school has committed itself to in a time when we are financially strapped.
I feel alittle bit better that there seems to be some progress at resolving these problems and hope the solution for LW as well as PS comes quickly before we have to give up the rest of our G4's. (this would mean disaster for many of our students who rely soley on the lab to do their projects.)
In the meantime I hope that anyone reading this will post whatever new info they have on a fix so I can pass it on to the faculty and my fellow "Waver's" and give them some assurence we haven't made a terrible mistake.
Also if anyone has any ideas about the problems with PhotoShop CE and Illustrator CE such as work arounds, they would be most welcome.

Ge4-ce
02-24-2004, 01:34 PM
I haven't heard of any problems regarding Photoshop and Illustrator on Panther..

CE you say? what edition is that? The only ones I know off are CS, (alias number 8)

I work on a powerbook with panther.. no problems found, dayly photoshop and illustrator work..

kfinla
02-25-2004, 05:29 AM
I've also had the interface in layout seize up, key commands work still, so all u can really do Is save often, and relauch layout after it no longer responds to mouse clicks. The save scene pull down usually works always, its just the 'save all objects" that needs a key command mapped to it i guess to truely avoid any data loss.

I'm really hope'n 10.3.3 comes out pronto, ive heard next week, for about 3 weeks, im in the middle of production and really not looking forward to porting everything to a PC that dosent have G2, Taft, or sasquatch, animating and then bringing it back and hooking everything up again.

And switching back to 10.2.8 ive tried, i'd have to install a 2nd copy of LW on the partition running Jaguar, and Ive got LW so customized it would be a huge hassle, also problem is I have FCP, and DVDSP2 which like panther.

Anyways thats my story..

Moser95814
02-25-2004, 11:51 AM
Sorry, CS.

Also the Adobe problem was corrected by doing a reinstall so it wasn't a Panther problem after all.

Thanks for the feedback.

Saverio
02-25-2004, 02:20 PM
Thats it, I give up!!

I agree with the views on the Versiontracker forums :

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/11998&page=1

Newtek does not give a stuff about the mac community or the farce it calls software it produces for it.

I tried to download the 7.5c upgrade to be greeted with a waiting message from iGetter (its been waiting for 14days now) and when I brought a model home from work (a 4000 poly car door model in obj) format my G4 800dp running 1.5gb of ram and an Nvidea geforce 4 card felt like you'd just kicked it in the balls the way it was heaving at moving the model!

On my poxy windoze xp box running 128mb ram and a 32mb matrox card it moves it like a rocket on speed!

Why is it I can take a CATIA model off a unix box and put it on a crappy windoze box and work the model, and when I get home, on my Mac which IS superior in every respect makes my mac feel as adequate as a commodore vic 20 then its time to say...

Sorry Newtek, but if its a choice of your upgrade to V8, id rather pay the difference for the crossgrade to cinema 4d or alternatively the full asking price for a seat of Maya.

Your developers clearly don't give a crap and I can only sympathise for the poor guy above who trusted you clowns enough to pay for 50 licences and now has to explain to his boss why he's pissed their money on something that doesn't work.

Maya here I come.

Ge4-ce
02-25-2004, 02:35 PM
It's no use to shout here in this forum against Newtek.. Ok, there have been mistakes.. and afterall.. With all the problems I'm facing right now, I can't find a better programm to do the stuff with I want! Maya is way more complex! or you have to do way more effort for getting the same results..

I actually don't know what to do.. I stay with LW and hope they release it soon! Everyones patience is gone.. way gone..

But remember... the grass is always more green on the other side of the mountain.. or how do you say that in english..

BTW,.. did you check the FPrime plugin from worley.com??? No other app gives you the oppertunity to implement such a plugin!

Saverio
02-25-2004, 02:45 PM
I'm just really pissed off!!

I used to use strata studio until I discovered Inspire which was really good, and I agree that as a package you can't beat LW.

Its not that I want a candybar interface, or pretty lights, but it really annoys me when I load my dual licence onto a windows box which is inferior in specification (a P3 for goodness sakes), with only 128mb of ram and a 32mb graphics card and see the software on your machine behave like you'd just tried to load it on an old mac performa!

As a package LW really is king, but could NT please do us the curtesy of supporting us properly. I waited for months for the OS X version of LW to come out and like many of us we need NT to work with us because our livelyhood counts on it.

Ge4-ce
02-25-2004, 03:13 PM
On that part.. I totally agree with you..

LW 8 should be running properly on a Mac..

It should have the same amount of optimisation for Mac as it has for wintel.

We allready know that NT has made a commitment in optimising LW 8 for the Powermac G5! So that's good news!

We can only hope that NT is investing the extra time they need for LW 8 to release to fix all the bugs and make LW 8 a very very stable version running speedy on both Mac and Windows..

So.. time will tell.. Don't forget Apple makes mistakes as well.. Especially in Opengl problems wich could be the main reason why your model doesn't rotate that fast on a Mac.. what OS are you using? 10.3.3 that will come out soon promises a +10 to +30 % OPenGL performance depending on your system, JUST BY A SYTEM UPDATE,.. + it would fix the graph editor problem..

So we can't blame all on Newtek..

Saverio
02-25-2004, 03:48 PM
Your right there, apple are indeed the masters of coming out with a gem only to shoot themselves in the foot at the same time!

The system is as follows:
G4 800dp, 1.5gb ram, OS 10.2.8 and a Nvidea Geforce 4 Ti card.

Also do you know of any mirror sites that have LW 7.5c as i'm running 7.5b

The image which is causing me angst was originally a CATIA file converted into IGES format. In Rhino3d we converted it to .obj format and that's what we imported into LW.

It was for a product mock up, and the guys at work like Maya, but I never was that keen on its rendering. I suggested LW and since I had a dual platform licence I thought i'd show them how good it was, and on such a crap machine it was really good, so understandably.. my shock when I ran it on the above:(


I wonder if its because the whole Unix thing is still new to NT?

mlinde
02-25-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by kfinla
And switching back to 10.2.8 ive tried, i'd have to install a 2nd copy of LW on the partition running Jaguar, and Ive got LW so customized it would be a huge hassle, also problem is I have FCP, and DVDSP2 which like panther. Sounds like you already have a 10.2.8 partition, which means your "huge hassle" would take all of about 15 minutes.
1) use the LW CD to install the Eve3.framework while running 10.2.8
2) Copy your Lightwave 3D 7.5 folder from the 10.3 Applications to the 10.2.8 Applications.
3) In the "programs" subfolder, change the name of the HD (if it's even listed) in the various preferences for LW
4) Copy the LW preferences from the 10.3 ~/Library/Preferences folder.

You are done, Lightwave (along with all your customizations) is ready to run.

In addition, "customization" in LW can be easily duplicated by saving your menus and keys as text files, which are then loaded into an additional version. Also a 2-3 minute procedure.

mlinde
02-25-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
But nevertheless.. We were out of Graph editor for 5 months. Let's see, 10.3 was released on October 28th (10/28) and it's now February. I'm being nitpicky, but it's actually only four months.

mlinde
02-25-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Saverio
Thats it, I give up!!
...and when I brought a model home from work (a 4000 poly car door model in obj) format my G4 800dp running 1.5gb of ram and an Nvidea geforce 4 card felt like you'd just kicked it in the balls the way it was heaving at moving the model!

On my poxy windoze xp box running 128mb ram and a 32mb matrox card it moves it like a rocket on speed!
Maya here I come. Have fun spending another $1500. Maya is crippled by the hardware just as much as Lightwave. The issue with performance isn't all in Newtek's court, especially since the core technology behind the 3D application is OpenGL, which (as I recall) is being developed and maintained by Apple, who also builds your hardware. Most of your performance issues are solely the responsibility of the designers of your low-level OS and hardware. Um, that ain't Newtek.

Ge4-ce
02-26-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by mlinde
Let's see, 10.3 was released on October 28th (10/28) and it's now February. I'm being nitpicky, but it's actually only four months.

Woops.. sorry.. I did not recall the exact date.. I went to Macworld in Paris in september and there is was Panther all over the place so I thought it had shipped end september early october..

Then it has been 4 months without GE :) but not ONLY 4 months like you call it :) If you drive to work with a shiny corvette and your work is 60 miles from home, you don't say.. I ONLY walked 4 months to work because my Vette broke down..


btw.. I do NOT own a corvette,.. bit I wish I did.. :(

Darth Mole
02-26-2004, 05:28 AM
FOUR months....

Let's just let that sink in.

Ge4-ce
02-26-2004, 06:36 AM
Speaking of!!

I now have that "NOT RESPONDING INTERFACE-problem" as well!!

Oh boy.... And I thought the Graph Editor was a problem..

When I load items from scene, the interface does not react anymore and I cannot move rotate,... anything in viewports.. Basically,.. I can't do ****..

Yes, .. I can open windows with shortcuts.. but cannot change settings.. :rolleyes:


This sucks..

IgnusFast
02-26-2004, 06:50 AM
Yup, that's the problem. MAN I hope it gets fixed soon!!!

Ge4-ce
02-26-2004, 07:00 AM
I have a feeling that with 10.3.3 all problems will be gone..

...

Long pauze...


....


HAAAAAAAHHAAH HAAA HAAA


I think I just go back to my paper and pencil.. take up my dusted peg bar, and go for some 2D animation.. sigh..

Seansds
02-26-2004, 08:34 AM
I have a big project coming up and I need this program working in Panther. I love Lightwave but this is ridiculous. I didn't pay $1400.00 to watch it crash on me.

Come on guys, give us a patch or at least make a public statement saying that 10.3.3 will fix our problems.

Thanks,
Desperate in Denver

mlinde
02-26-2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Darth Mole
FOUR months....

Let's just let that sink in. Yeah, I know it's bad. FWIW, I try to email Newtek each month asking about it, if not more often.

Oh, on the other 10.3.3 note, 10.3.3 may fix the GE problem, but the other stuff won't be touched, like the mouse/tablet or the LScript issues, or any other 7.5c problems. For those of you who've forgotten all the little issues with 7.5c, the GE is just the big obvious one, so don't go running to 10.3.3 expecting a panacea.

As for 10.3.3 release dates, I would expect that it will be released when Apple is sure it's ready. Since it's had two developer releases we can hope it will me in March, but I wouldn't hold my breath, Apple will release when they think it's ready, no different than any other developer.

MichiganJ.S
02-26-2004, 01:27 PM
I sent this note to Newtek on the 16th of this month:


I know that LW 8.0 is the highest priority over there at NewTek right now, but please don't forget about MY needs as an existing Mac customer. Without the Graph Editor, I cannot animate. Without sensible mouse control, I cannot model efficiently or arrange my scenes the way I'd like to. Plus, of course, the all-too-frequent crashing (don't deny it, you know it's true) makes scene setup and rendering virtually impossible (I hit "Save All..." hundreds of times a day). I was able to partition an extra hard drive and install X.2 "Jaguar" on it for some temporary compatibility this month, but working in two systems is hellishly inconvenient when you have UNIX permissions and other apps to consider. I have essentially been without a working Lightwave for 4 months now, and I'm seriously, seriously considering a move to Maya rather than just throwing another $500 at this LW problem in hopes that the Mac version of 8 will finally live up to it's PC counterpart. Please, work a little MORE actively on the 7.5c update. I genuinely need it now.

- Michigan J.S

All I got back was a damned 2-line form letter telling me to "keep checking Newtek.com for updates". Gee, I hadn't thought of that.

F*** Newtek. I'm not taking this another year. I'm moving UP to MAYA as soon as I possibly can. I'll get myself all of the training DVDs from GnomonWorkshop.com, and then I can finally start doing REAL work on my mac. It's a learning curve, and it's definitely a large investment, but at least I'll be using a true mac program. Alias is committed to the Mac. I genuinely don't believe that Newtek is. I mean, if they cared about us, wouldn't they have at least made a token appearance in this thread? Possibly said something to de-escalate the situation, and ease some of this rage and frustration we're feeling? No, they aren't saying anything.

CAN YOU HEAR ME, NEWTEK?!?!? ARE YOU LISTENING TO US AT ALL?!?!? :confused:

(sigh)

Saverio
02-26-2004, 02:48 PM
My setiments exactly... it would ease some of the pain if they at least turned around and said "hey its not perfect, but we are thinking of you"

but instead the silence speaks volumes.
all it says is "I wish that system would just roll over and die, until it does... we can still dupe them for another five hundred.."

I hate windows, but I see that even if the mac version of Maya didn't exist they support Linux, so have a good unix foundation. Newtek give the big player talk, but their lack of commitment to the platforms they develop for says it all.

Chuck
02-26-2004, 03:26 PM
We are always listening, even when we don't seem to be talking much. Just as my personal observation, I really don't think that Maya only being willing to port their lower end application demonstrates a superior commitment by any stretch of the imagination. The equivalent behavior on our part would have been if NewTek had only offered Inspire on the Mac, and not LightWave 3D.

We know the situation is frustrating, but we do not have the patch at a point for public release yet. I'm not sure how long that will take. We're doing the best we can to manage our development priorities, and will get the patch out when we can insure that it solves problems and does so without creating other problems.

Seansds
02-26-2004, 04:25 PM
Thanks for the input Chuck.
It makes me feel better to know that there is a patch on the way.

pantone
02-26-2004, 08:25 PM
"I really don't think that Maya only being willing to port their lower end application demonstrates a superior commitment by any stretch of the imagination. The equivalent behavior on our part would have been if NewTek had only offered Inspire on the Mac, and not LightWave 3D."

I think that's a bit misleading. You're comparing a product you don't even make anymore to one you do.

The current version of Maya complete runs efficiently and without problems on PC as well as Mac. MEL works the same in one environment as the other. The graph editor, dope sheet and modeling functions work the same. The fact that the extra modules in Unlimited aren't available on the Mac in no way limits the functionality of the Maya complete software by platform.

Personally I think it's futile for users to expect answers from software companies beyond "Yeah, we know about the issue and we're working on it."
For better or worse it's the way things are. You get the answers when they have them...not before. Adobe does it. Apple does it. Microsoft does it. Newtek isn't alone in this behavior.

If Newtek didn't care about Mac users they wouldn't be developing for Mac. The fact they continue to offer the software to Mac users means there must be enough of us out there to keep them working on it. Why else would they put up with the hassles? If they were really THAT BAD then mac users would've migrated away a long time ago. That doesn't appear to have happened.

NonPlanar
02-26-2004, 08:33 PM
Oh?

Cool, so where's Aura for mac?
Where's the video toaster for mac?

(Both great tools that greatly enhances LW, if you only had a PC.)

Please.

I walked out of a Don Ballance demo of VT2 once because he was dissing the Mac totally. I guess he hadn't noticed that the studio he was giving this demo was also an authorized mac dealer. I really should have complained about that a long time ago... but it seems appropriate to bring it up now since that was the first bad seed in a long series that Newtek planted.

Flash forward to present time.

Newtek has not been able to return my phone calls /e-mails about the RealViz /DFX problem (please seek other posts under my name for further info on that). Only a promise they would contact me with more info later. Later. LATER.

One of the reasons I didn't want to wait with the pre-order is because I teach (soon to be taught?) Lightwave 3D. As such I'd like to have the latest releases of the software I work with, so to well prepared for lecturing. Students ask me all the time what 3D software I recommend. Do you think my answers might be influenced at all by the way software companies treat Mac users? (rhetorical)

I have now indeed purchased Maya complete for Mac (and wow, it runs perfectly in 10.3+) and Shave and a Haircut (wow, hair that shows up in reflective surfaces). On top of that, it's not nearly as complex of convoluted as many have claimed in this forum.

But I'm not writing this to rave about Maya, or to trash Lightwave. This is really about how companies can win or lose customers based on how they treat them. Regardless of how great or poor their software is.

My 2 cts.

Thanks.

nonplanar

NonPlanar
02-26-2004, 08:42 PM
If they were really THAT BAD then mac users would've migrated away a long time ago. That doesn't appear to have happened.


Not yet, anyway. You never know what might start an exodus. I'm seeing some pretty clear signs, though.

js33
02-26-2004, 10:47 PM
I wonder what the ratio of PC to Mac Lightwave users is? Of course now that most people have the Duo dongles Newtek has no way of knowing anymore.

Cheers,
JS

NonPlanar
02-26-2004, 10:53 PM
All I know is that the number of posts in the MAC section is much higher than in the PC section.

That doesn't mean there are more mac users, obviously...

It's pure speculation, but still, the numbers are interesting.

Jimzip
02-26-2004, 11:08 PM
All that means is that there are more problems with the Mac version of Lightwave..
I just hope all this kerfuffle is worked out before I have to work on my major assignment.

Jimzip :D

Aegis
02-26-2004, 11:42 PM
Cool, so where's Aura for mac?

www.bauhaussoftware.com :)

Satchie
02-27-2004, 01:34 AM
I think constant presence through communications to customers is a way to tell them "we care about you, we are working on the matter", but I've seen many flames come and go by, until Chuck's words, why wait soooo long to tell those customers they are working on the solution? I know LW 8 is a hard task, taking into account that you are making it 64 bits -am I wrong?-, so hats off to you, for all that hard work, but, please, keep in touch with the customers, in constant communication, and not those loosy letters, the customers will give you loyalty, as long as you show them the same loyalty.

Ge4-ce
02-27-2004, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by NonPlanar
All I know is that the number of posts in the MAC section is much higher than in the PC section.



Hehe... All the PC-users are posting in the "gallery-finished" section.. :rolleyes:

blabberlicious
02-27-2004, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by Chuck

We're doing the best we can to manage our development priorities, and will get the patch out when we can insure that it solves problems and does so without creating other problems.

Do you mean you'll get 7.5d out AFTER LW8 is released?

Please clarify.

mrunion
02-27-2004, 06:57 AM
WARNING: I am a PC User! Never used a Mac. Seen one once. The following is an actual opinion. It is ONLY and OPINION! Forgive me in advance if I sound like I'm doing anything other than expressing that.

1) How come a new software release from Apple makes it NewTeks fault LW is broken? I just don't understand.

2) Being a PC user using LW (and some other Windows-Only tools) I am stuck with XP. XP is GOOD. I like Linux better, but can't use it for "daily" stuff.

3) Windows releases break stuff too. All the hardware that quit working when 2000 came out for example. I really don;t see ANY company having to write software to work with stuff they don't want to support anymore. Again, I'm NOT saying they should *say* they support it, and then *don't*. I'm just saying that NewTek apparently wrote LW for certain parameters, Apple changed them, now everyone is mad a NewTek. Is the reason everyone is mad is because it's been four months since the new OS release and there is not a fix?

4) I'm definitely NOT trying to cause ANYONE an issue. I just want to understand. I know that Mac is very popular among artistic/graphic/etc. stuff, but it isn't the majority. For whatever reason -- good, bad, indifferent -- it isn't. We all make choices on what hardware and software to buy. I personally prefer PCs. I take the good with the bad.

5) The TV studio I have to send tapes to for something we do for our pastor was talking to me about how we did our editing. He mentioned that I needed to get a Mac because they were "standard" for that work. He said I could get a good used one for around $1000 bucks. I respectfully asked him what format he wanted our stuff in. He told me. I repectfully told him my brand-new $1200 PC does that, so I saw no reason to change right now. He agreed.

Bottom line. Please, please understand that I respect EVERYONE'S platform of choice. But if you don't like something that is a result of a decision you made (software/hardware choices, etc.), then make a different choice. Just be glad NewTek isn't PC based. Rarely do "old" apps get supported OR fixed when something new is released unless you have some special maintenance agreement. I mean, when new PC software is released, old version might as well not been born.

Be mad at me if you wish. I am just trying to understand the delimma. I mean no disrespect or hard feelings towards anyone.

MichiganJ.S
02-27-2004, 07:09 AM
BTW, I wanted to come back here and apologize while I still had the opportunity. My little rant on the previous page was way too harsh on Newtek (see: F*** Newtek). I'm prone to pretty rapid mood-swings, and I'm a week past my deadline now because of Lightwave troubles, so I was just out for blood. That doesn't warrant such an extreme outburst, though, so I'm sorry. Please keep working on that patch, and keep us posted!

(p.s: There are more messages in the Mac forum than the PC forum because Mac users are more high-maintainence!)
(p.p.s: Why the lighter mood? Perhaps because... MY G5 JUST ARRIVED!!! :D )

Darth Mole
02-27-2004, 07:50 AM
mrunion...

To be honest, I think us Mac users are venting at NewTek becasue venting at Apple is like asking the tides to stop or howling at the moon.

Hopefully Chuck ad co. understand that, which is why his repsonses are so measured. He knows we don't really hate NewTek, but what else can we do? Apple has millions of users to look after, NewTek has, what, thousands?

Ultimately, some onus has to fall on NewTek to support its users, given the Apple has bigger fish to fry. After all, LightWave runs on OS X, not the other way round... and four months is a long time for your main app not to work properly.

It's also been bad timing: not only have we not had a fix, we also haven't had LW 8. And to a user, it looks a simple problem - fix a few OpenGL calls and make the Graph Editor work again - when I'm sure the converse is true.

It will be deeply ironic if the new build of OS X actually fixes the problems introduced by 10.3.2 and we don't need a bugfix...

Eithe way, there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Ge4-ce
02-27-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by MichiganJ.S

(p.p.s: Why the lighter mood? Perhaps because... MY G5 JUST ARRIVED!!! :D )

You just bought a new G5 at the 'everlasting' evening of the announce of new Powermacs?

Tomorrow , when the SF Applestore opens, Apple holds a pressmeeting possible with the introduction of new Macs..

If not.. it would be next month.. or else they would have to jump right to 3 GHz in june like they promised..

But we will see..

BTW, about that rant.. Everyone once in a while has been tired of all this software sh*t.. We Mac-people are just to goddamm spoiled!! we think it's normal everything just works!

NonPlanar
02-27-2004, 08:01 AM
it's cuz of promises not kept, promises that NT made, not Apple.

Chuck
02-27-2004, 08:41 AM
Actually, just as a reminder, not all responses we make are public. Folks may wish to remember to hit the User CP (User Control Panel) button from time to time to check private messages.

Thanks!

Chuck

NonPlanar
02-27-2004, 08:45 AM
New Private Messages
View All Private Messages


There are no new private messages since your last visit

blabberlicious
02-27-2004, 09:02 AM
Is that some kind of joke?

I'm sorry, but if it is, it missed by a mile.

The only private message I ever got was when I apologised to Chuck for hijacking the latest 'Great New Tools' Video Post - in a vain attempt to get some of these mac questions answered.

and that was was months ago.


Please take us seriously.

NonPlanar
02-27-2004, 09:41 AM
O, I don't think it's a joke. It's called putting out fire with gasoline.

You know, I've come to realize this all started when NT moved away from Topeka, KS.

But this might well be my final post here. I simply really don't care anymore.

Total indifference stage has been reached.

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:05 PM
weird logic...

lets see..
1.lightwave ran perfectly well before apple came out with 10.3....
2.when apple released 10.3 lightwave didn't run as expected..

so..?who broke lightwave???...oh of course newtek did!

..err no they didn't!...

newtek have only so many people to fix bugs...and this bug was created not by a new version of newtek's 3d software at all but by a operating system vendor's new version of osx...

so should newtek fix up a new version of lightwave that may very well only work on 10.3...when the next version 10.4 comes out apple may decide to break lightwave again a different way...

also please be aware of apple/lux and alias...they could be coluding to "rubbish" lightwave by intentionally breaking it so opening up the market on the mac platform for lux and maya
who better to help break it than ex empolyees cuddling upto steve jobs on stage?

vent your anger in the right direction...your missing the point here by a lightyear.

steve g

blabberlicious
02-27-2004, 12:32 PM
Maya works with Panther - and has done for all the recent OS upgrades.

I think they had the forsighte to tune their apps with the betas that Apple seed prior to release.




Unlike NT


You keep saying Lightwave 'Ran Perfectly' on the mac before -


Perfectly?

Cresshead:

What experience do you base that on?

Perfect unless you don;t mind your expensive mac hardware being trashed by $500 PC, because rendering is optimised for Intel chips, or the the crappy Hub is .F****d on all but the simplest tasks.

The list of other bugs you can find on this forum is there for all to see. Most are far from trivial.


No software is perfect, but for many of us this situation and the way it has been handled has decsended into farce.

NT seems to only seem able to 'firefight' mac concers, instead of pre empting them. All the roadmaps, special offers can't disguise the fact that they REALLY taken their eye off the ball.

And mac users are used to fighting their corner, so they are getting what they deserve - a slating.

Chuck
02-27-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Is that some kind of joke?

I'm sorry, but if it is, it missed by a mile.

The only private message I ever got was when I apologised to Chuck for hijacking the latest 'Great New Tools' Video Post - in a vain attempt to get some of these mac questions answered.

and that was was months ago.


Please take us seriously.

I have posted some private responses to some of the folks on this thread, and have not received replies, and when that's happened I have always found that it was due to the folks I was sending private messages to not being aware of and using the private message section. No, I have not sent private messages to everyone, and please do not take that as an insult. Please also rest assured that my attempt to let folks know (without being specific as to who) that they might have private messages was not intended as a joke and is certainly not intended to insult anyone. My apologies if you felt upset about this.

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:48 PM
and YOU must also be totally aware that newtek have a new development team doing their best to get lightwave 8 out there for MAC and PC as well as dealing with lw7 issues...newtek have been thru great changes of staff an re location..the origonal developers of modeler and layout for whatever reason "moved on" and for all intents and purposes left newtek "high n dry"...from then till now they have been working their socks off trying to make up for lost ground and time...and then we get apple's latest osx busting lightwave...

not one to curses n swears but you have the "absolute luxury" of being able to use lightwave on mac or a intel pc at the drop of a hat with no financial penities of moving your licence...

no one...REPEAT no one! gives you the free option to install and use a 3d app on pc or mac by just moving a dongle across for nothing...and have 999 fre render nodes of a real prdiction quality renderer....not a have a go scanline or one node of mental ray for fre and $1500 for node number 2.

if you have lost your trust in a company that has at its heart a goal to provide a top 3d program for the masses and not the elete top few people who can splash out on $2000 programs and $800 upgrades every 6 months and who do not let to move your platform of choice freely but instead charge you thru the nose then off you go...feel free to donate your credit cards to "RENT" maya or 3ds max....

i do have sympathy for your situation however..i'm VERY interested in getting a mac soon to run lightwave on and make DVD's so a fully working lightwave on mac is really needed but i can wait till they sort out any problems...you should be able to have a dual boot osx10.28 for ligthwave until the main crash bugs of panther are either fixed or side stepped by a new osx or lightwave 8.

as for the hub..well the hub is definatly not perfect on mac or pc but like i said newtek has new developers now..and they are making some cool stuff for lw 8...no doubt a new hub is on their hitlist for you.

keep cool if at all possible!:)

MichiganJ.S
02-27-2004, 12:58 PM
Quick response to Ge4-ce:

You just bought a new G5 at the 'everlasting' evening of the announce of new Powermacs?
Tomorrow , when the SF Applestore opens, Apple holds a pressmeeting possible with the introduction of new Macs..
If not.. it would be next month..
I'm certain that they will announce new towers tommorrow. Why? Because my new G5 is CTO, and CTO orders can't be returned! I'm so obsessed with Mac rumors and speculation that a new tower tomorrow would be pure poetic justice, hence there's no way God's gonna' pass up on that one! I suppose you'll have me to thank for the announcement, then! They'd just better not be too cool, or I'm going have to break some furniture around here...

Seansds
02-27-2004, 02:19 PM
I don't think the new towers will come tomorrow.
Apple has a RAM special when you buy a G5 that runs through March. My guess would be 1st part of April.
But I hope your right.

NonPlanar
02-27-2004, 02:25 PM
Chuck,

And how are we supposed to know who you mean? I mean, I've had it happen where people claim they have left a PM for me in this forum, but I never got it. I'm not conviced the private message system on this site is 100% reliable.

At any rate, if you feel you have something to say to me directly, feel free to e-mail it directly:

[email protected]

Beamtracer
02-27-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by cresshead

1.lightwave ran perfectly well before apple came out with 10.3....
2.when apple released 10.3 lightwave didn't run as expected
Sure operating systems change and get updated. That's just part of the game. Software vendors then have to modify their applications to be compatible with the new OS. This happens with every OS, and every software vendor. Some software vendors like it because they can charge money for the upgrade.


Originally posted by cresshead
so..?who broke lightwave???...oh of course newtek did!

..err no they didn't!...
Yep, changes on OS X broke Lightwave. But the onus is still on Newtek to modify Lightwave to run on it. This is the same with every software company. Adobe had to modify Photoshop to run on Panther.



Originally posted by cresshead
be aware of apple/lux and alias...they could be coluding to "rubbish" lightwave by intentionally breaking it so opening up the market on the mac platform for lux and maya Entertaining conspiracy theory. I don't think Apple's OS update was done to intentionally break Lightwave. They updated OpenGL to a newer version.

It would be flattering if all Apple's attention was centered around Lightwave!

Newtek and Apple often have discussions about how they can make Lightwave run better on the Mac. There have been comments from Newtek in earlier threads about this.

mlinde
02-27-2004, 04:01 PM
But the question comes back -- if Newtek was supposed to fix it (and they apparently worked out a solution that isn't publicily available yet) why did Apple fix it themselves, with a new OS update, as 10.3.3 apparently changes the behavior again. I'll tell you why -- Apple introduced a bug in the code, and Apple had to fix it. Whether it only affected Newtek or it affected 100 OGL developers, it was a bug from Apple.

According to Scott, it seems like the fix at Newtek was a good thing for other reasons, but the song remains the same: Apple made an error with OGL in 10.3, and they are now fixing it with 10.3.3

Did Alias change Maya to work with 10.2.4 or 10.2.5? No. Why should Newtek change Lightwave to work with 10.3, 10.3.1 or 10.3.2 if it is a bug in the OS code? (please note I still believe there are other reasons worthy of a 7.5 patch, this is specifically about the Graph Editor bug).

IgnusFast
02-27-2004, 04:14 PM
What version of OpenGL does Apple officially support? For all we know, the function in question could have been an older, unsupported function. Or maybe it's been wrong all along, and they finally fixed it to work like it should and broke programs that depended on the older implementation.

We just don't know. I know I'm just a hobbyist, and that my needs for this product are much different than some pros out there. But I had never even *used* the graph editor before yesterday. Of MUCH more concern to me are the mouse and UI lock-up issues that are plaguing this release. And I don't really care who's problem they are; I'd just like them fixed, please! :)

Any time you write a program which is dependant on someone else's software (whether it's the OS, a database, an IP stack, whatever), it's foremost your responsibility to make sure the problems AREN'T yours, then forward them on to the next in line.... and in the mean time, find a workaraound. That's development, baby!

mlinde
02-27-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by IgnusFast
What version of OpenGL does Apple officially support? At least 1.3, as I saw documentation referring specifically to that version at one point. I think they may support 1.4 and the current OpenGL spec (at opengl.org) is 1.5.

mrunion
02-27-2004, 05:44 PM
Thank you for helping me uderstand. I do understand what you mean about having to vent. I also understand now that things were complicated by the "already present issues", thus this just seems like the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back..." thing.

Though I'm sure it doesn't help anyone at all, I am confident NewTek will not leave you guys hanging. I know that's "easy for me to say" 'cause I don't have a Mac, but NewTek just seems like they are awlays trying to do the right thing. I'm sure they handle it appropriately.

Thanks for taking the time to enlighten a non-Mac-member in your plights.

Moser95814
02-27-2004, 06:34 PM
Do Mac's use Intel architecture?, chips?, ect. Or do they have there own prepriotory hardware? Please excuse if this seem like a dumb question but I'm not a techie and most of my experience has been with PC's although I use Macs at school.

mlinde
02-27-2004, 06:52 PM
In general computer architecture is similar, but the Mac uses it's own custom designed logic boards with processors made by IBM or Motorola. The majority of the hardware is standards compliant (802.11g wireless networking, PCI-X, AGP 8x, PC2700 DDR SDRAM, Nvidia or ATI graphics chips), but the software is completely different, from the firmware in the GPUs to the operating system itself.

Moser95814
02-27-2004, 07:15 PM
I guess what I'm asking is why the "Big shots" (please see below)in CG seem to be leaning toward Intel based systems and not Macs. Is this a sign of the times or what. Many of my ( well healed) friends frown when I tell them I get pretty decent results from my dual processor PC and that I need to upgrade to a G5 or be left in the dust. I'm really at a loss since my scenes look and play back great on my PC but when I present them on a Mac (G4's) at school, layers are distorted and the overall presentation is very fuzzy. When I show them at home they all say "WoW".
This may not be a system problem but I'm not sure. I would be hard pressed to spend the money on a G5 especially if I don't have to, but presentation is alot as far as my grade is concerned.
Any input would be most appreciated.


With the move, Pixar becomes the seventh major studio in eight months to switch to Intel for animation rendering, which requires heavy data processing. Other studios include Industry, Light & Magic, Sony Pictures <6758.T>, Walt Disney Co. <DIS.N>, and Dreamworks, according to Santa Clara, California-based Intel.

js33
02-27-2004, 08:35 PM
I hope NT and Apple get all the bugs worked out soon.

I use my Mac for video editing, some music production with Garage Band which is kickass considering the price and DVDSP2 for DVD authoring of course.

Cheers,
JS

mlinde
02-28-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Moser95814
I guess what I'm asking is why the "Big shots" (please see below)in CG seem to be leaning toward Intel based systems and not Macs. Basically it's a cost issue. These houses are building Linux renderfarms running Renderman, and you can build a high-powered PC for nothing, especially if you aren't buying an OS with it. They aren't running windows on these things. And, the switch isn't from Macs, but from SGI systems. Studios like Pixar also recently made a big move to do all their compositing on Macs running Shake, which didn't make the Intel newswire.

Many of my (well healed) friends frown when I tell them I get pretty decent results from my dual processor PC and that I need to upgrade to a G5 or be left in the dust. I'm really at a loss since my scenes look and play back great on my PC but when I present them on a Mac (G4's) at school, layers are distorted and the overall presentation is very fuzzy. When I show them at home they all say "WoW" There are a lot of hardware/software issues with performance on the Mac, IMHO. With an application like Lightwave, which looks and acts the same on both platforms, but performs better under Windows, it makes sense for a lot of people to do their 3D with Windows if they can afford the additional hardware.

As for your presentation, I don't know what you are presenting, and how. There are so many possible issues you'd have to post some details. Start with these questions:
1) Is it a quicktime movie?
2) If so, are you playing the same movie at home and at school?
3) What codec are you compressing with?
4) Do you understand the difference between Mac & PC Gamma on displays?
5) If you don't, do some reading up on it, and make sure to adjust your display or make different versions of the file calibrated for the different displays.

The display gamma issue is a difficult one for people who are going to a different platform to understand. Basically Apple decided that white was a very important color, and ships monitors calibrated to show white very brightly, while Windows/PCs are targeted at a darker, grayer white. What you find is that a file moving between platforms will color shift because of the calibration of the monitor. However, this may not be your problem, so review the list of questions above.

sparks401
02-28-2004, 10:42 AM
My heads hurts, reading all this. I like Lightwave. I had my working project crash on me right after I upgraded to Panther. I am anxiously looking for the situation to be fixed quickly, by Apple, Newtek, or whoever. I have no choice but to be patient...my project is in LW, I learned 3D in LW, I like the guys at Newtek. I hope that the situation gets fixed, even if that means I have to buy LW 8.

archiea
02-29-2004, 01:04 PM
Well, there's been alot of harsh words thrown already in this debate, and in some cases rightfully so....

I just experienced situation that can be stated as being related to this....

The possibility has just come up to do more 3D work at an old place that I worked at, as I mostly do 2D these days. The plan a few months back was to update my 6.0 Mac LW to 7.5 (at the time that the free update to 8.0 was announced) and present more 3D stuff on my reel JUST for opportunities like this. Panther came out and I read about the problems. However, 2D was still my main bread winner, and FCP4.0 was necessitating panther. And besides, a fix for LW was sure on the way, if not LW 8 would be out 4Q.

As it was, LW8 never came out, LW7.5d is still up in the air. I got the Maya PLE to attempt to use that but much of my tutorial and workflow was LW already. Then work got busy and I didn't have the patience to deal with the 7.5 problem. so now that they are asking for more 3D on my reel there isn't any. Re-learning 3D and making a presentable piece for my reel, hence, maintaining my marketbility, is hard work enough with my work schedule. To have to dodge between the "right" apple software upgrades and LW patches on top of that is just alot of work, even in hindsight.

The realities are that if I was serious about having LW work I would have created a dual boot mac. But wait, LW 8 is just around the corner.... then its not.

While we can point fingers at Apple or to NT, it really doesn't seem to be doing anything... Apple's update broke LW, but it didn't break other apps, so the answer there isn't even clear....

What I really do need to hear is what NT plans for the futiure so that this and 7.5b never happen again. And while postphoning the release of 8.0 indefinitly seems to be NT solution to avoiding another 7.5b, it doesn't tell me what NT plans to do with a current version of LW that breaks because of a system upgrade.

While NT's problem is not unique in the software biz, its a problem for us mac users who need a professional solution for 3D, without the fanboy excuses that seem to make up LW tech support on the Mac...

As I've debated before, people kept applauding Nt for lowering the price of LW, and for not charging for x.5 updates. While NT's lowered price does reflect the market trend, the free x.5 releases does little to my confidence that NT can support professional mac Lw users from a standpoint of resourses. In effect, we are getting what we paid for. So how do I get what I want (high end support for LW) even if it means paying extra for it?

wapangy
02-29-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by archiea

While we can point fingers at Apple or to NT, it really doesn't seem to be doing anything... Apple's update broke LW, but it didn't break other apps, so the answer there isn't even clear....


Panther broke other apps too, like UT2K3 and Halo for instance, they crash all the time (on certain video cards only). Thats also fixed with 10.3.3.

I don't care why or how things get broken or by who. But things do, and by other systems as well (I've seen tons of things go crazy with XP).

Overall, I just don't see why its that big if a deal to at least fix the minor bugs. If its up to apple only to fix opengl then so be it, but there are also little ones that newtek could have done. I've payed $5 for share ware apps that get updated every week. I've payed over a thousand for an app that has been broken for months.
Whatever, I don't care anymore. I just hope LW 8 is working fine and out soon.

Beamtracer
02-29-2004, 11:00 PM
Some people here would consider OS X itself to be a bug. When OS X was released it broke just about everything. Software companies had to work hard to change their apps to be compliant with the OS.

I remember that Newtek was the first to have a major 3D app working on OS X. They had a beta out before OS X was officially released. They released Lightwave for OS X the day that OS X was officially released.

In the case of OS 10.3, I think most major apps actually did require some kind of modification to be compliant. Adobe released patches for many of their apps.

So Newtek isn't the only company affected by the changes that OS 10.3 brought. It's just taking a bit longer than expected to be resolved.

I don't think problems will continue past March. We have OS 10.3.3 about to be released, as well as Lightwave 8 on March 22.

archiea
02-29-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by wapangy
. I've payed $5 for share ware apps that get updated every week. I've payed over a thousand for an app that has been broken for months.
Whatever, I don't care anymore. I just hope LW 8 is working fine and out soon.

While its not fair to compare a shareware app to a 3D app from a technical standpoint, its a valid argument from a customer's standpoint. which leads to my question; how much DO i have to pay to ensure that i can have a professional 3D app on the mac?

archiea
03-01-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer


I remember that Newtek was the first to have a major 3D app working on OS X. They had a beta out before OS X was officially released. They released Lightwave for OS X the day that OS X was officially released.


I wonder what happened to lead to our situation today, considering that momentum.... Before OS-x is out and LW is running... now we get a system update or a patch from NT and the whole thing goes to crap. And we STILL don't have LW in apple stores.


Originally posted by Beamtracer


In the case of OS 10.3, I think most major apps actually did require some kind of modification to be compliant. Adobe released patches for many of their apps.



I'm curious how Cinema 3D has fared with all of this....


Originally posted by Beamtracer


So Newtek isn't the only company affected by the changes that OS 10.3 brought. It's just taking a bit longer than expected to be resolved.


I think the problem is that NT is not currently equiped to handle the pace of OS-X's development..... period, As I've asked before, how much would it take to give LW PROFESSIONAL (as in like not fanboy) support for the mac comunity. As in like Mac based studios getting a new build of LW in a resonable time should a new system or patch cause a problem. NAME YOUR PRICE NEWTEK, and i will weigh it against the cost switching to a PC and/or switching 3D apps. I'm as serious as a heart attack, CHUCK, I'm at the end of my rope. Apple charges $1,500 a year for support of Shake, Discreet charges thousands. Yes, this is the calibur I am asking for. I just want some security in knowing that if i embark on a project...especially if its someone else's money, that I will not be the situation that I was in this past year.


Originally posted by Beamtracer


I don't think problems will continue past March. We have OS 10.3.3 about to be released, as well as Lightwave 8 on March 22.

Well, that can be said about the Iraqi war, and they spend billions on that. We just spent $495. I think I'll not hold my breath this time.....