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cresshead
02-21-2004, 01:54 AM
okay we don't know exactly what it's all about as yet, but it sure looks to be a killer plugin...

so as a general interest...by what we know already what would be the "no brainer" buy it now price for everyone...take into consideration that it looks to be a real time saver for previews and setting up your scenes REALLY FAST...and it's similar to G2 in some areas...

personally i'd say a figure or btween $100 to $200 would get nearly everyone who has lightwave to buy this cutting edge technology for their lightwave..and remember it runs on lw7.5 and lightwave 8 too.

cagey5
02-21-2004, 02:19 AM
Speaking as a hobbyist I voted $200 as a no brainer anything more than that I would have to think long and hard on, but it would probably fall into the 'Nice to have' box, but put it out of my price bracket. [Mental note: generate a 'Really Really Nice to have' box]
Having said that I'm sure the studios will buy at the drop of a hat irrespective of price because it will pay for itself and the professional individuals would also be prepared to pay more than $200.
I'm just hoping he's going for the 'pitch it low and cast a wide net' approach because I'm sure this is a product everyone wants it's just whether or not they can afford it.

jamesl
02-21-2004, 04:28 AM
I voted for $500, and if you had an option for $1000, I would have voted that. Jeez, you guys... if someone told you a week ago that you could have near instananeous raytraced feedback for your renders in LW, wouldn't you just go nuts?
$200? That's all it's worth to you? Granted, if you're a hobbiest, you might not be able to step up, but if you make a living with this stuff, I'll bet it pays for itself with one or two jobs at $1K!

I just hope Steve sees something big out of this, so he continues to develop for LW.

cheers,

j

cagey5
02-21-2004, 04:31 AM
Yep. I think that's what I said!

3DBob
02-21-2004, 04:56 AM
I've invested heavily ( for a single freelancer ) in Worleys' plugins and everyone is a scorcher - I've got 2 G2, sas, polk, taft - and have used them all. The Aman head I use for my avatar used sas and g2.

I'll also be using G2 extensively in an up coming project next week where I'll be using its "art" mode (something fprime doesn't do).

In the past Worley has offered special introductory pricing for owners of his previous plug-ins and this makes for good will and respect. I do hope he does likewise on this occasion, as many instances where I would have used f9/g2 - FPrime will suffice and do a better job.

If G2 had never existed and I had never bought 2 copies, I would be willing to pay $500 for this. As it is, I think $300 more appropriate, as I will want to get at least two licences. A special intro price for previous plugin owners of $250 would make this a no-brainer.

my 2c

Bob

KillMe
02-21-2004, 05:21 AM
anything below $300 absolute no brainer - $400 will still get but will be reluctant and sad to see the cash go - $500 same as $400 but even more sad to see my wallet getting lighter

any higher than $500 and i'm just gonna have to admire from afar

lunarcamel
02-21-2004, 08:01 AM
I think its rather stupid to even have a poll - it will not influence worley one bit. How much should LW 9 cost when that comes out?

Come on guys ;)

Gui Lo
02-21-2004, 09:25 AM
Well, we can see that Worley have a must have plug-in at any price. But like all 'must have's it still depends if you have the asking price amount available.

I do make a living from producing 3D but beyond $300 then I must choose between LW8 and Fprime. The other, I must put off for a few months and at the moment it is looking like Fprime.

So I can buy both now for a low price point or Worley need to wait a few months after I buy LW8.

FPrime looks to be priceless and worth a lot more than I can afford right now. A special intro price of $250 would be great and I think most LW owners would would take advantage of this offer.

My 2Cents.

Gui Lo

hrgiger
02-21-2004, 09:29 AM
Polls are hamrless and i don't think the intention was to sway Mr. Worleys pricing. Sounds to me like he already has a price in mind.

cagey5,

Sure, I think it's worth a lot more then $200 but look at what Steve said on the site.
"....our pricing is designed to make the decision easy. It's also a great way for us to celebrate Worley Labs's 10 year anniversary with you! "
The $500+ he charges for Sas and G2 aren't an easy decision for most people. I'm willing to bet he's charging less for F Prime. Besides, wouldn't you rather have 10,000 people buying your product at $200 then 500 people buying it at $500? Maybe it won't be as cheap as $200 (I hope it is) but I'm willing to bet it won't be as much as G2 and Sas.

cresshead
02-21-2004, 11:22 AM
re "stupid to have a poll"
well your opinion is of course respected and valid to you.

i'm not seeking to get the price altered either lower or higher...
we simply do not know what this thing really does yet so how could i!

for all i know it maybe a new renderer for lightwave.

i though it might be fun to see what people would be prepared pay for what we know so far...and make it a absolute "go get it"
descision ...

we can't really evaluate it yet but it's fun to see what people's feelings on the plugin are at this very early stage...

so far $200 area looks the most popular

i was going to put a $1000 marker as well but after what worley posted i though that was too high a figure as their main pligins are $500 each and worley said F PRIME would be in a lower pricepoint i belive.

if you find the idea of the poll annoying please ignore this thread!

have a great weekend

i look forward to more news on F Prime next week!

cheers

steve g

lunarcamel
02-21-2004, 12:15 PM
cresshead:

I understand why you decided to poll this topic. My issue is related to all the hype about new products and err upgrades that fill these forums with more clutter then useful information.

I think this poll would be more useful once everyone actually knows what this thing does/ or is - know what I mean?

And hey, I hope it's cheap too - who doesn't! ;)

pauland
02-21-2004, 12:54 PM
I think one of the really interesting things about the poll is that nobody (so far) has picked $400. Apart from that it's a nice bell curve, as you might expect.

I wonder why $400 isn't a favourite choice. Any marketing gurus care to tell us?

Paul

prospector
02-21-2004, 02:08 PM
Because of the way ads are run, people have gotten use to the first number.

'On sale for under 400 would 99 times out of a hundred mean 399.95, so subconciously the first number is Always remembered.
Which is why 300 is higher.

That sound plausable???:D

So if it does go for 399.00 would then people NOT buy it because that means 4 100 dollar bills come out the wallet instead of
the 300 box checked off in the poll.

A 300 check off means what range? 250 to 350? 300 to 400?

That's why I checked 50. I figure the range would carry up to 99.99.
Anything after that I would have to compare that price to a CPU upgrade which would benifit more in the long run.
It would also speed viper some so it wouldn't be a total loss of viper speed.

pauland
02-21-2004, 02:51 PM
Err.. prospector, I'm not totally convinced by your argument. Never mind, some so and so has now chosen $400!

Paul

js33
02-21-2004, 02:57 PM
I would rather have F Prime than a slightly faster CPU. F Prime will save much more time in setting up a scene than any few minutes you might gain rendering a sequence with a slightly faster CPU. Besides final rendering is done at night when you are sleeping and F Prime will save your actual setup time and allow you to get more done.

I think this thing will be worth its weight in gold but the market reality is that I think people will be willing to spend up to $300 for it so anything between $200- $300 is fine with me.

Cheers,
JS

jamesl
02-21-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Besides, wouldn't you rather have 10,000 people buying your product at $200 then 500 people buying it at $500?

I doubt you'd lose 90% of your sales for a difference of $300, but you might lose 30-40%, and your support costs and overhead would be lower, so you might end up making more money selling fewer copies. But I'm a snob, and I want to pay $1000 so my competitors can't afford it and I have and edge... :p

j

hrgiger
02-21-2004, 04:39 PM
I wouldn't be so sure jamesl. I would say sasquatch is probably Worley's favorite plug-in but if you check out just the members on this board, you'll find very few people actually own the full version. I had it but I sold it to Dodgy, another member on this board so I could pay for my Lightwave 8 upgrade. With the potential of what F Prime means as far as speed, I think if it were priced at $200 or slightly more, I think you'd find very few people on this board who didn't own it. I would say probably more like70-80% or more. Not 30-40%. But who knows.

riki
02-21-2004, 05:12 PM
Worely's plugins look great, but generally speaking, out of my price-range.

cagey5
02-21-2004, 05:16 PM
Well to use the figures as of today and ignoring the G2, Sasquatch element the breakdown in sales would be as follows.

$500 - 12 people = $6,000
$400 - 14 people = $5,600
$300 - 32 people = $9,600
$200 - 67 people = $13,400
$100 - 88 people = $8,800
$50 - 102 people = $5,100

That would bear out what most people are saying, to maximise the income a price of between $200 and $300 would make most sense and generate a large user base more inclined to be future purchasers

mattclary
02-21-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by jamesl
I doubt you'd lose 90% of your sales for a difference of $300,

It would knock me out of the running, or at least SERIOUSLY delay it for me. If it's $199 I'll order it the day it's available (already cleared it with the old lady ;) )

I'm not sure what you use LightWave for but a lot of us are hobbyists, so $500 is a lot of cash for something that isn't going to make you any money.

If it turns out to be a complete replacement renderer for LightWave, I would probably be willing to spend more. The $199 figure is just for the instant preview capabilities.

And as to the worthlesness of this poll, F Prime is the most interesting thing I've seen on thse boards in a while. I'm more pumped about that than I am LW 8. That probably stems from the fact that I don't do much animation and would be more benefited from render improvements.

prospector
02-21-2004, 07:42 PM
JS33
F Prime will save much more time in setting up a scene than any few minutes you might gain rendering a sequence with a slightly faster CPU.

Mine usually run 1 min or more with avg being 1:30

at a min of 1800 frames, if I can save 10 sec each, thats 300 min
or 5 hours per anim.
For me, I don't think a faster Viper would be worth it over CPU.
Even now it dosen't take that long to surface, but others may do less rendering and it WOULD be worth it to them.

I'd have to see what the pricing will be. which means for me anyway..low

js33
02-21-2004, 09:46 PM
Well there's certainly nothing wrong with a faster CPU but what if F Prime can be used for final renders? Then you will save much more than 10 seconds a frame not to mention the setup time saved to get your surfaces and lights just right. Then it will be a win win situation.

Cheers,
JS

prospector
02-21-2004, 10:56 PM
Haven't read anything on that yet...
But we will see..

GregMalick
02-22-2004, 05:52 AM
looking at Worley's other prices... I think it will be $499 Right in line with G2 and Sasquatch pricing.

Whether I personally will buy it depends on all it's features - which of course we don't know yet.

TyVole
02-22-2004, 06:34 AM
jamesl makes a good point when he mentions the cost of support. There's an inherent cost to each software sale. So, creating a higher price point may in fact allow you to generate a higher net income even while reducing your gross revenue. Especially for a very small company like Worley.

Also, a higher price point generally creates a more sophisticated user base (studios as opposed to hobbyists), which may also reduce support costs.

Of course, I'm hoping for a low price like most people here; and based on Worley's site, it looks like we'll get one.

hrgiger
02-22-2004, 06:50 AM
That's true to an extent TyVole, and to be perfectly honest, I hadn't considered those points but there are still other factors.

First, you have to consider that some places can offer very low prices because they sell in such quantity (aka Wal-Mart). Also as far as the cost of each software, subtract the cost of producing CD's as Worley doesn't use them. He ties the plug-in to your dongle and makes the software a download on the website.

Also, look at all the complaining on this board over the last few months over the lack of improvements to Lightwave 8's rendering. Worley is offering a product that has the potential to give us real-time rendering. It remains to be seen if it will be able to handle radiosity solutions but even if it doesn't, look at how easy it will be to fake radiosity with F Prime since you can set up your bounce lights and see the results in real-time. It sounds like Worley understands that everyone will want this product and he'd be a fool to try and sell it for a price only a fraction of us could afford to pay for a plug-in.

private
02-22-2004, 07:22 AM
I don't understand how Newtek can offer great added bonuses for upgrades and new licences with the DFX+ and Real Viz deal that supposedly retail around $1500, but come to some sort of agreement with Worley on something like a full version of Sasquatch, G2 etc. It's hard to believe that they are giving the software to Lightwave users, so Newtek must be subsidizing it somehow. That would be a pretty penny thrown Worley's way.

pauland
02-22-2004, 07:31 AM
Newtek can offer the great deals because their partners offer a product which is either not the latest version (as in RealViz) or is an incomplete mix/limited version (as in Eyone). This isn't to say that either of these offers isn't a fantastic bargain, or that the software is bad. It's top notch software in both cases.

The important thing is that people taking up the ofers are providing an additional revenue stream to the partner from outside their mainstay market. Not only are they getting some income, from many people who wouldn't otherwise aquire the product, they are also generating future income from upgrades in the future, again from outside their main market.

Worleys market is synonomous with Newteks, so the same kind of benefit can't occur. Why should worley strike a deal for customers already in his market? He's already done that with SAS lite.

Paul

cresshead
02-22-2004, 08:22 AM
re pricing..look at the price of console games which are generally around 40-50 yet the cost of the r n d and quality of them is like that of a small feature film production with big names for audio narration, mo caputure or even a star in the games..and is in the millions of pounds in most cases...they make their money back and profit by the number in which they sell them..millions of them in some cases..yet there's no console games for 200 each as their is a defined pricepoint for a console game.

whereas plugins for 3d apps has a limited market and then a limited segment of that market depending on what the plugin does and what niche it fills

F PRIME looks to be a general plugin in that everyone who has lightwave can benefit from it's usage..so the potential market fr it is the whole lightwave userbase.

let's see what happens this week eh?

cheers

steve g:cool:

cyphyr
02-22-2004, 08:31 AM
@ 3DBOB

I'll also be using G2 extensively in an up coming project next week where I'll be using its "art" mode (something fprime doesn't do).

Er did I miss something, How do you know?

cyphyr

3DBob
02-22-2004, 09:04 AM
@ cyphyr

I summise that as an f9 replacement, FP will not have all the shader functionality that G2 has, like art mode, Sub surface scattering, edge shading effects etc. It may show the results of these G2 shaders/modifyers in the preview - but it will not be doing the shading without G2. Hence they are mutually exclusive but at the same time complimentary.

It is also my personal belief that FPrime will show sasquatch preview - although, I must stress this is a combination of assumed Worley aspiration and my own desire for having better feedback for the allready awesome ( but interminably tweakable ) sasquatch.

3DBob

KillMe
02-22-2004, 09:35 AM
a sas perview woudl be awesome but i doubt it hair is complex stuff, that said if it jsut gave you a hint at what it would be like it woudl be very cool

cyphyr
02-22-2004, 09:48 AM
@ 3DBOB

I'll also be using G2 extensively in an up coming project next week where I'll be using its "art" mode (something fprime doesn't do).

Er did I miss something, How do you know?

cyphyr

CB_3D
02-22-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
a sas perview woudl be awesome but i doubt it hair is complex stuff,

So is a mirrored, textured and shadowed 250.000 poly object and yet...

He has been dropping hints that Sas, G2 and the new product (Fprime) will complement each other.

3DBob
02-22-2004, 02:19 PM
@ Cyphyr

To clarify, I believe FP will show G2/sas effects - but only if you have objects set up with those plugins. So FP will show G2s' "Art mode" if G2 plugin loaded and surfaces applied to objects.

Sas already has a link to G2 with respects to shadows (corrected from earlier versions) I reckon these packages will all work together - it makes sense - everyone gets FP because it's so dam useful anyway (and reasonably priced) - then Worley just makes all his plugins use it as a preview, therefore, he only has to update one preview technology, and then he can just concentrate on the functionality of the various plugins.

If I was programming it - it would be my goal. It would give you a competitive advantage over other plugin makers - he could even licence out the SDK for other plugin designers to hook into FP.

3DBob

Meaty
02-22-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
jamesl makes a good point when he mentions the cost of support. There's an inherent cost to each software sale. So, creating a higher price point may in fact allow you to generate a higher net income even while reducing your gross revenue. Especially for a very small company like Worley.

Also, a higher price point generally creates a more sophisticated user base (studios as opposed to hobbyists), which may also reduce support costs.

Of course, I'm hoping for a low price like most people here; and based on Worley's site, it looks like we'll get one.

that is of course assuming a parabolic (or something similar)model for the cost of support vs units sold as a function of profit... which i am not entirely sure is the case, though i suppose it could be.

edit: i would have guessed that it was linear then plateauing at some point

Qslugs
02-22-2004, 04:41 PM
I bet its free. Kinda like the disgusting plugin. I bet the plugin is R&D for G2 and Sasquatch for visualization purposes. I wouldn't doubt it if he gave away copies to his other plugin users. Just like Disgusting. If it's not free I bet that its cheap. 50-100 dollars. Someone wrote a similar plugin for C4d, I hear that sells for around 60 dollars.

mattclary
02-22-2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Qslugs
I bet its free.

That's funny!

cresshead
02-22-2004, 06:58 PM
the thing for cinema is like active shade [max], viper[lw] and ipr [maya] and doesn't do realtime raytracing like F prime.

like comparing a skatboard to a saturn 5 rocket...they are both forms of transport but a rocket will get you there faster...[F prime]:D

also note that whilst sniper pro [cinema] is pretty fast..it is not nr realtime as we see with f prime..also note that sniper pro generally kicks out very small pixelated previews...not 1024x768 realtime renders as demo'd with f prime so far...of course we do not know if F prime can handle caustics and radiosity like sniper pro so a full feature comparison is not available just yet.

...more info should be around later today i hope!

CB_3D
02-22-2004, 07:19 PM
If this thing could really do radiosity, caustics and hair just as fast as the rest we saw, ill be officially speechless for a week.

cresshead
02-22-2004, 07:29 PM
you n me both! [speechless]

hey, i know a whole load of people who'd look forward to me being speechless for a week!

....here's hoping!

js33
02-22-2004, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by CB_3D
If this thing could really do radiosity, caustics and hair just as fast as the rest we saw, ill be officially speechless for a week.

You and about 50-100,000 other people. :D

Cheers,
JS

jamesl
02-22-2004, 08:58 PM
I know a guy who wrote THE OTHER lightwave hair plugin, and he couldn't get a fair price for his work (although it was a very good plugin), so he abandoned the Lightwave community and sold his technology to Softimage for seven figures. So while Worley struck a deal to provide Sas lite for free, this guy left the LW community altogether. My point is, if F-Prime is WORTH $1K, even if you can't afford it as a hobbiest in your parent's basement, doesn't he deserve it anyways? Before he abandons developing for a platform that consists of 2-bit hobbiests that can't afford to move out of their parent's house? If this post offends you, I apologize, and sincerely hope, for your parent's sake, that you get a better job and move out.

j

ikaruz
02-22-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
the thing for cinema is like active shade [max], viper[lw] and ipr [maya] and doesn't do realtime raytracing like F prime.
Just out of curioutsity I've been hearing people mention maya's IPR and XSI's limited rendering region tool. Are these the equivalent of Lightwave's viper?

Fprime looks to be similar to what Sniper Pro can do for Cinema 4D but Fprime looks alot faster and better quality :).

DigiLusionist
02-22-2004, 09:33 PM
James, you kill me...

js33
02-22-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by ikaruz
Just out of curioutsity I've been hearing people mention maya's IPR and XSI's limited rendering region tool. Are these the equivalent of Lightwave's viper?

Fprime looks to be similar to what Sniper Pro can do for Cinema 4D but Fprime looks alot faster and better quality :).

Maya's and XSI's limited rendering regions are just that. You draw out a box and it just rerenders that portion. Sort of like Lightwave limited region but it updates as soon as you draw out the box. Actually this could be developed for Lightwave to as all it would take is allowing you to draw a box on the render preview and it would just rerender that portion but F Prime let's you update the entire render even faster than these limited region renders do.

Cheers,
JS

jamesl
02-22-2004, 11:22 PM
Actually, Maya's IRR uses the same deep render technology that LW's (v)IP(E)R offers, with the same handicaps.

jamesl
02-22-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by cagey5
Well to use the figures as of today and ignoring the G2, Sasquatch element the breakdown in sales would be as follows.

$500 - 12 people = $6,000
$400 - 14 people = $5,600
$300 - 32 people = $9,600
$200 - 67 people = $13,400
$100 - 88 people = $8,800
$50 - 102 people = $5,100

That would bear out what most people are saying, to maximise the income a price of between $200 and $300 would make most sense and generate a large user base more inclined to be future purchasers

So now, we have 17 people willing to pay $500, for a net of $8500.

And 47 people, willing to pay $200, for a net of $9400.

Is it worth $900 for Worley to have to support more than twice as many people? Can you see how this stops being an economy of scale, unless you can get thousands of people to buy? He's not making Big Macs, he's making a tool that can put your competitor out of business.

j

DigiLusionist
02-22-2004, 11:59 PM
He's not making a WMD.

And I can see how the paltry numbers you guys are projecting right now don't make it viable for Worley to provide CS without losing money.

But I would think 5000 seats at $200 ($1,000,000) might make it less of a losing proposition.

jamesl
02-23-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist

But I would think 5000 seats at $200 ($1,000,000) might make it less of a losing proposition.

And do you think he's sold 5000 licenses of Sasquatch? G2? Polk or Taft? Combined?!? Maybe...

j

DigiLusionist
02-23-2004, 12:21 AM
Have no knowledge of the actual number sold.

Just know that developing a product for less than 1000 seats seems impractical.

I'm not sure how anyone puts bread on the table working full-time on something (plus any staff and advertising) if they're only selling to a minute niche market.

Plus, a studio may be the target market, but then, I'd think he'd be pushing this for Maya, then.

LW houses might not be able to afford 50% the cost of LW per seat to buy the plug-in.

jamesl
02-23-2004, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist

LW houses might not be able to afford 50% the cost of LW per seat to buy the plug-in.

But that would still be more than $500.

I just think that it is worth supporting developers of this caliber that are developing for the platform that you depend upon for a living. To try to lowball what they are doing may help you this month, but will kill the platform in the long run.

j

Verlon
02-23-2004, 12:35 AM
James, that is 67 people for a net of $13,400 vs the $6,000 for the $500 price point. You should check your numbers :P

He doubles his money at $200 and then some. You bring up support. Personally, I have had no need to call in for support on his products. If the product is made so well it needs very little support, then that is much less a factor. If they have to patch it for LW9, the same patch applies to 1 user or 1000.

I would think there are bragging rights and clout to be gained by being able to claim that '80% of all lightwave users are working with my product.'

As a hobbyist, I bought full Sasquatch (shave too for that matter), but I am living without G2 because hitting F9 is less painful then hitting my credit card for half a thousand dollars.

The same will likely apply here as well. It is nice, but I don't have deadlines, just an imagination. I get the impression from his web page that it will be less than that though.

Joe Alter did not leave lightwave over pricing. He specifically said he was unhappy over not getting the support he need from Newtek. Whether or not this is true is no matter. That is the reason he gave.

DigiLusionist
02-23-2004, 12:37 AM
No one's suggesting lowballing. But making the plug-in too expensive is needless, too.

Speaking for myself only, I could not afford to pay $12,000 for just this plug-in alone in order to outfit the workstations I'm getting.

I would definitely get at least one seat of this at $500 or less, because it would make work MUCH faster. But, I have a very limited budget, and am not Sony.

I've been able to get work done before without this plug-in, and I would say I'd still be able to pull projects done without it, if I couldn't afford any seats of it.

I produce my own work, not stuff for clients. So there's no competition to rush against...

EDIT: And, I would think that getting $2,400 from me for 12 stations at $200 per would be better than getting $500 from me for only one.

jamesl
02-23-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Verlon
James, that is 67 people for a net of $13,400 vs the $6,000 for the $500 price point. You should check your numbers :P


What are the numbers at the top of this page? 47 is the number I see next to $200. Is that incorrect?

And I never mentioned Joe's name, but there was only one sale of Shave that he needed, and he left the LW community. I can see the same thing happening with Worley, and then what will you do? Why is Steve expected to do charity work for the hobbiest? He might, if studios and software companies were not willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars.

j

jamesl
02-23-2004, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
But, I have a very limited budget, and am not Sony.


Neither am I, and we don't use LW. Wouldn't even consider it. Because it's a hobbiest platform, without professional features.

And how does it stop being just that?

????

:rolleyes:

j

p.s I use LW in my own personal work, but I'm tired of A-holes using the fact that I work for a studio against me.

pauland
02-23-2004, 01:15 AM
Yes, but if someone will buy F-Prime for $500, they will also do so for $200. So the $200 purchasing customers include all those who would have paid more.

Paul

DigiLusionist
02-23-2004, 01:15 AM
Not going to get in a pissing contest. I use Maya, too. But for the cost of the app, maintenance, etc, I still prefer to use LW.

And, since this plug-in is developed for LW, $200 to $500 for it doesn't seem "hobbyist" to me. Just a great value.

DigiLusionist
02-23-2004, 01:17 AM
OK, James. That was uncalled for.

jamesl
02-23-2004, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by pauland
Yes, but if someone will buy F-Prime for $500, they will also do so for $200. So the $200 purchasing customers include all those who would have paid more.

Paul

And by that reasoning, Worley should sell it for $1.00.

j

jamesl
02-23-2004, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
OK, James. That was uncalled for.

Please quote what was uncalled for. I can't imagine what it was.

j

pauland
02-23-2004, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
And by that reasoning, Worley should sell it for $1.00.

j

From the poll, the maximum profit occurs when the price is $200. You counted 47 customers buying at $200, which is right, but you forgot all about the customers that would pay more than $200, but will still happily pay $200. So there are a lot more than 47 customers buying at $200.

Why are you so worked up about this?

Paul (a 2bit hobbyist who paid the same price everyone else did for LW)

3DBob
02-23-2004, 03:45 AM
Ok guys - keep it real.

Here's my reasoned take on the poll.

As I said before, I would be happy to pay $300 a licence, since i'll be buying 2 licences at this price you can add at least another vote for the $300 price point here. The above figures do not include the number of licenses a voter would be prepared to purchase. If it was more than $300 I would only buy one. I'd probably get only one to start with anyhow - but if there was introductory pricing for previous plugin users, say $250 I'd get 2 in the period.

My point is this, at $300 dollars there are 51+1 licences to sell guranteed ( 300+400+500 voters ) and I bet if it had a 250-300 intro price selling moving to 300-350 final price - a good number, maybe the majority of $200 voters would find the extra $50 for the chance to get an introductory price. By rewarding previous customers you are adding value to the purchase because they may feel they'll be similarly treated the next time the developer comes up with another ground breaking technology. The purchase is therefor incentivised and a high purchase rate attained.

The lightwave community is many more than the 158 ( at time of counting ) in this poll.

My personal take on this is as follows:

$249.99 intro price for previous Worley plugin users (Normally not your hobbiest - and I know a lot of them in the UK)

$299.99 intro price for new Worley customers

$349.99 - $399.99 final price ( therefore incentivising customers ).

3DBob

Dodgy
02-23-2004, 03:55 AM
Given taht the standard worley pricing is 499, and he made a special mention of making it a price which would make the choice of picking it up easy, we can be almost certain it's going to be less than that. $400 would be a drop, but it doesn't feel like enough of one to put the stress on it. A significant price drop would be $300 so that's what I'm guessing... $200 would be a dream come true:)

mattclary
02-23-2004, 05:58 AM
JamesL, I don't argue that F Prime couldn't or shouldn't sell for more. Because I choose to place the welfare of my wife and child above my hobbies does not mean I'm still living in my mother's basement.

My point is I can't justify spending $500 on a toy when I have a family to take care of and I will get no return on the investment.

I am not arguing that Worley should take my plight into consideration when he decides the price, either I can afford it or I can't, not his concern.

Of course, he has done the work, so it would seem logical to cast the broadest net he can to maximize his profit.

Verlon
02-23-2004, 07:32 AM
James, thsi is quoted from your post via ctrl c and ctrl v

$200 - 67 people = $13,400

I did NOT use the numbers at the top ofthe page, but the logic holds. Everyone, save perhaps you, who would buy it for $500 will certainly buy it (and perhaps buy more of it) for $200.

This is supply and demmand economics that they teach in high school. You raise the price too much, demmand goes down and you lose profits. If your price gets to low, the margin is so small that the volume does not offset the lost revenue. The most money to be made on this graph is at the $200 price point (given that there are no manufacturing costs, its a download).

Another quote from you...


Neither am I, and we don't use LW. Wouldn't even consider it. Because it's a hobbiest platform, without professional features.

And how does it stop being just that?


Are you implying that by making the same product more expensive, it becomes more professional? Because this is what it sounds like you are saying, and its ridiculous. I can sell you a copy of Poser for $16,000 if you like, but that won't make it better than Maya.

No you didn't name Joe by name, but most of us knew exactly who you were talking about when you said it.

mattbolton
02-23-2004, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by jamesl

My point is, if F-Prime is WORTH $1K, even if you can't afford it as a hobbiest in your parent's basement, doesn't he deserve it anyways? Before he abandons developing for a platform that consists of 2-bit hobbiests that can't afford to move out of their parent's house? If this post offends you, I apologize, and sincerely hope, for your parent's sake, that you get a better job and move out.

j

What?? Do you really think that the average "hobbiest" is some kid living in his parents basement? I think you would be surprised to find out that most "hobbiests" who can afford LW plus any other accompanying tools are married, have children, and an established career of their own. Does it make you feel better to belittle other users who do not "work in the industry" because their responsibilities(or wives) would not allow them to purchase an add-on for $500, while they may be able to manage if it was only $150? What he "deserves" and what price he can make the most profit with are two different things. I daresay that supporting "hobbiests" can be a lucrative business just as well as supporting "professional" users; marketing and product quality are the important factors.

jamesl
02-23-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Verlon


Another quote from you...


Neither am I, and we don't use LW. Wouldn't even consider it. Because it's a hobbiest platform, without professional features.

And how does it stop being just that?


Are you implying that by making the same product more expensive, it becomes more professional? Because this is what it sounds like you are saying, and its ridiculous. I can sell you a copy of Poser for $16,000 if you like, but that won't make it better than Maya.

No you didn't name Joe by name, but most of us knew exactly who you were talking about when you said it.

No, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I also stated that I use LW, but Sony doesn't (or any other studio I've worked at) as some were implying that it's easy for me to encourage Steve to ask for more for his work since Sony was going to pay for it anyways. They won't, but I will. I wasn't implying that a higher price makes it more prestigious, I was saying that if developers can't charge enough to make it worth while, they'll leave. And right now, the impression is that the developers -owe- it to people to make it affordable for the average guy. I've always said, if you can't afford it, you're not making money with it, you don't need it. Period.

j

KillMe
02-23-2004, 10:35 AM
why dont we leave it to worley to descide whats its worth and leave it at that - sure he knows what its worth and what price point will earn him the most cash back

hrgiger
02-23-2004, 11:07 AM
Not sure what the argument is about. Worley said that he's going to make the decision for us to buy FPrime easy which suggests he's probably going to sell it for less then $500 despite what James thinks it should sell for.

I'm not sure what James has against hobbyists or what his ridiculous statement about Lightwave being simply a hobbyists platform was all about.

mattclary
02-23-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
he's probably going to sell it for less then $500 despite what James thinks it should sell for

LOL! This part just really struck me as funny for some reason. :D

jamesl
02-23-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger

I'm not sure what James has against hobbyists or what his ridiculous statement about Lightwave being simply a hobbyists platform was all about.

I was being faceitious. Obviously LW is more than just a hobbiest platform... my point was that it's becoming difficult for developers to consider it as more than that when they are forced to sell their wares below what they could get on other platforms.

*Golem voice*
Thems thieving hobbiests..."
:mad:

j

pauland
02-23-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
my point was that it's becoming difficult for developers to consider it as more than that when they are forced to sell their wares below what they could get on other platforms.

*Golem voice*
Thems thieving hobbiests..."
:mad:

j

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. I've no doubt that worley can make a lot of money selling his product if he get's his price/volume mix right.

If worley or anyone else want's to support other platforms at a different price point then good luck to them.

Paul

Meaty
02-23-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by KillMe
why dont we leave it to worley to descide whats its worth and leave it at that - sure he knows what its worth and what price point will earn him the most cash back

duhhh... because we're bored!!!! :D

cresshead
02-23-2004, 12:28 PM
some of you need to see daylight more!

shave price...

on max it's [was..now withdrawn due to dispute with splutterfish who ported it but were not paid properly by all accounts] $500
on cinema it's $449
and on maya it's $800

if i remember right shave was around $250

so shave price is MARKET DRIVEN...maya's version is more expensive...then the max version and then the the cinema version...

remember that maya used to cost 28,000 for version 1 with the modules...7,000 for artisan for example...yet the hi end market dried up and alias wavefront [alias] dropped the price a couple of times to gain new footholds in lower markets...the last price drop was from $6000 down to $2000...james i'm sure you must have argued that alias was doing the wrong thing at the time and made maya a hobbists program..so probably removed the hi end features and finally made it usable for plebs who install it in their bedrooms.

as for lightwave not being a proffessional product well..i won't even bother to list the emmys and awards that lightwave is used in on televison and film plus cutting edge science work [mars] and tv adverts that defy most people to comment that they were cgi in the first place..[nike]

some here are just having fun twisting a blade in your back because newtek decided to make their software affordable from day one and not the same cost as a house like maya was.

back on topic with F prime please...!

mattclary
02-23-2004, 12:47 PM
Worley needs to get off his butt and post a price and a way to buy the damn thing! :cool: The day is wasting!

js33
02-23-2004, 12:57 PM
YES. Do it now. I want to use F Prime today. :D

The sooner he releases it the sooner his bank account will start to swell.

Cheers,
JS

cresshead
02-23-2004, 12:57 PM
maybe he's having to re render out a raytraced 3D text "price tag"..these things can take ages to render..raytracing etc..tough stuff!

..he might even have changed the price from taking a look at this poll and up'd it from $99 to $200!

or he could be on the phone to those at XSi and have sold the technology for a seven figure sum on the advice from james!

...waaay to go james!:rolleyes: ;) :D :( :cool: :eek:

mattclary
02-23-2004, 01:04 PM
Yep, I was starting to think it was James' fault... ;)

cresshead
02-23-2004, 01:10 PM
well..can't wait any longer..off to watch some splinegod video training that arrived today [thanks larry!]

...though i'll check worley later on no doubt!

steve g

cagey5
02-23-2004, 03:09 PM
Well since this thread is turning fairly nonsensical, I'll add my pennysworth.

[Worley Quote]
Since there's nothing like this tool in LightWave 8, and we're confident the FPrime renderer is something every LightWave user (both 7 and 8) will demand, our pricing is designed to make the decision easy. It's also a great way for us to celebrate Worley Labs's 10 year anniversary with you! *
{End]

The asterix at the end points to a 'year of the monkey' stamp. Also Worleys chinese, zodiac.
A 'monkey' to use monetary slang is 500 so 500 bucks it is ;)

And if you believe that ....

xeno3d
02-23-2004, 03:33 PM
shave price...

on max it's [was..now withdrawn due to dispute with splutterfish who ported it but were not paid properly by all accounts] $500
on cinema it's $449
and on maya it's $800

Actually Shave for Maya is now $299 for a node locked license

cresshead
02-23-2004, 04:12 PM
that's a big price drop for maya version of shave/haircut from $800 to $299..maybe he's aiming at the "maya hobbist market" now that the studio's have bought what they wanted at $800.

or could it be he's done his sums and is reaping the rewards of huge sale numbers at 299 compared to a handful at 800?

BTW still waiting for worley to give out some more news/demo videos....

steve g

Muad'dib
02-23-2004, 04:57 PM
Looks like those pricing q's have been put to rest by the man himself - check out the website ;) $279 Now - $ 399 Later

OH I almost forgot to mention the new demo :D ;)
Yes it does procedurals ... and some other bits to drool over as well ... any takers that Worley has GI taken care of as well :D

Meaty
02-23-2004, 05:29 PM
wow very nice price indeed

GI... would be nice, but i am skeptical until i see it. If it does GI... well, i guess I wont need a renderfarm anymore.

novadesigns
02-23-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by jamesl
I was being faceitious. Obviously LW is more than just a hobbiest platform... my point was that it's becoming difficult for developers to consider it as more than that when they are forced to sell their wares below what they could get on other platforms.

*Golem voice*
Thems thieving hobbiests..."
:mad:

j


Well, I sure am glad you cleared that up because it certainly doesn't come across as facetious, it comes across as a seriously arrogant statement. Gee, I would hate to have my boss stop paying me because we're using "hobbiest programs" to make our award winning TV show. I guess DNA isn't as "professional" a studio as Sony. :rolleyes:

I don't see how that statement could possibly make your point about developers considerations, even though its a valid one. Maybe you should try to be a little more straightforward so as to avoid needlessly insulting all your professional bretheren.

BTW, I'll have you all know that we had some folks from Sony Imageworks visit us here at DNA several months ago to talk to us about their pipeline, etc... They ended up being fairly impressed with us instead and blown away by G2 (which they had never even heard of!) and by the amount of shots we TDs crank out each week. You can thank Lightwave for that. :)

harlan
02-23-2004, 06:05 PM
So far, we've yet to see anything indicating that FPrime is for more than just "previewing" - albeit it does allow you to save the image.

If FPrime isn't a full blown render engine that allows us to render out scenes, etc... - perhaps someone could write a utility that "bakes" out FPrime renders straight from the timeline. Hmmm...it would also be interesting to "bake" renders while scrubbing.

I dunno, I just took a big hit of crack.

3DBob
02-23-2004, 06:09 PM
Well I think Worley has got the price SPOT ON - just shows his genius - he went for the mean of my two introductory price suggestions (previous and new user prices) and the max of my post introductory prices. Did I know? No... Did my comments influence him? No... just seemed obvious - this way everyones a winner - no one can really argue - and worley get what he deserves for a damn fine bit of code!!

Now about the Sas preview insight I had....

3DBob

Meaty
02-23-2004, 06:41 PM
Bob, you seem to be on point... any predictions on GI and volumetrics? ;)

Skritter
02-23-2004, 07:25 PM
I think it is about time we know what this baby CAN NOT do.

:D

3DBob
02-23-2004, 07:28 PM
I look at it like this - 2 years ago I saw a bunny covered in fur that you could rotate in realtime on a faily low spec machine - no pre-rendering.

Sas can render millions of fur fibres in just seconds on a faily low spec system - longer for long hair granted - but when you are getting the fibres looking and lit right you will be taking closeup looks at fibre clumps and highlights - so it wouldn't necessarily have that much to render. Also worley typically has flags to turn objects/lights/etc or groups of them on or off to speed and hone things.

Couple this with the fact that the preview in sas is less than optimal - and if I was Worley - I'd like FPrime to be able to show sas preview - or enable the capability in sas 2. Sas can do so much if you are prepared to spend time with its nobs and the f9 key - remove the need for the f9 and you will free the plugin to show its muscles - and it is so strong. Better results with sas will mean more sales of that plugin - I'm certain this fact is not lost on a man of Steves intellectual capacity.

Note: personally I'd like to see sas in reflections first!

With regard to GI - Well I was using lightscape on 600MHz Dec Alphas back in the good old native 64bit days of 1998 - this would churn out first pass GI extremely quickly and refine - similar to the way we have seen worleys FP do raytracing. You could stop the solution at any time when it looked good - and using the supplied plugin for lightwave 5.6 you could render D1 frames in seconds in LW on Intel CPUs running at 200Mhz! Results were stunning.

One could remove the external apps and plugins (now all killed by autodesk) out of the pipline - take as a guide the settings in LW global illumination panel - and work a rough lightscape style GI solution on the setup and you could get very good feedback on the realtime build of the solution. It might even look better than LW GI - Lightscape in my oppinion still does.

Worley did something similar with his area lights that he implimented in G2 - less/no noise with a solution in seconds.

My personal view is that FP will, if not initially, then with sas2, support preview of sas. As for GI - I believe this to have less of a commercial significance to Worley as it will not sell his other wares. I dont' know about you guys - but I tend to get the scene looking great (if I can) with standard lighting set-up, and then turn on GI for that extra warmth and reality if the contract demands it.

The fact is that you can get the surfacing and lighting done in FP. When you want to do a tweak on radiosity settings - you render a low quality GI with f9 late in the pipline - tweak in G2 and then up the samples for final render.

But there you see it in my last paragraph - I've used the dreaded f9 key - and for FP to be make f9 truely redundant - the workflow I've described above must also be now defunct. Therefore I'm hoping for Sas and GI - but then I'd like a yacht and a stint on the ISS!

Lets just enjoy the tease - and grin at the thought of the increased productivity - and buy the plugin from the one team that has consistently delivered increasingly high quality tools to our community. May Worley Labs prosper and all who sail with her!

3DBob

xeno3d
02-23-2004, 08:50 PM
... a 6 pack of shave for maya will run you $499... a 24 pack... $1800.. he has restructured his pricing. I'm still upset about the whole Shave and LightWave abandonment that happened, so I sold my shave dongle, but I don't forsee me ever needing to use it or Maya anyway seeing as how we have Sasquatch :)

not that it has any bearing on this thread.. just some general info :)

cresshead
02-25-2004, 04:43 AM
got my f prime money ready...from my current batch of sales at turbosquid..that'll pay for F prime!...so it's sorta free !

cool

steveg:cool: