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View Full Version : Inspiring NT for LW8.5 ____ LW9



Hervé
02-08-2004, 11:40 PM
now here we talk about rendering.... and it looks so optimized.... and so fast....

http://www.cgfocus.com/ArticleDetails.cfm?ArticleID=243

see by yourself....

Hervé
02-08-2004, 11:44 PM
fastest GI ever...

http://www.cebas.com/index.asp

look the render of front page.... too much man....

all we need is NT opening LW to other rendering engines... coz I really doubt NT will ever beat that.... so please... does it hurt your feelings to do so...?

Hervé
02-09-2004, 12:22 AM
and best of all ..... no more jaggies..... he he... those with archi stuff thin lines know what we are talking about here....

Ade
02-09-2004, 02:37 AM
Looks great, I wonder how much effort is needed to get that quality?

Im really disappointed with LW8 in an architect point of view.
3ds6 was probably one of the best updates ever seen in a 3d app. In one update they solved all their rendering problems.

I think c4d uses cebas too?

riki
02-09-2004, 02:58 AM
Beaytuiful renders, though I can't bring myself to read the article since it doesn't mention Mac. But amazing stuff.

Panikos
02-09-2004, 04:15 AM
It may written 2 years ago, but every word of it worths a thousand more.

http://www.richardrosenman.com/global.htm

I can easily generate Perfect Stills with LW-GI.
I did this many times.

The trouble begins when you animate them.

:)

Exper
02-09-2004, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Panikos

http://www.richardrosenman.com/global.htmLightwave?

Hervé
02-09-2004, 05:22 AM
It sounds strange, but this is not talking of LW at all, bu he said if I missed one GI renderer, let me know.... well LW is one no?!...

Panikos
02-09-2004, 07:49 AM
Actually LW is not a renderer (only) but a full package.
This guy wrote about renderers only and I dont think that he omitted LW intentionally.
Besides this web was created 2 years ago

:D

claymation
02-09-2004, 07:59 AM
Well in one update Newtek is solving all their character animation problems. Great Job!

It is not great for those who want render updates but it does give me the feeling that they are doing complete solutions to existing problems and not just little patches and extra plugins.

So when 9 comes out, or maybe 8.5, who knows, I'm sure they'll tackle rendering or modeling and it will be a good size improvement.

My guess is that they might go after rendering since that is the next big one since so many people want edges and n-gons it may take longer for them to rebuild the parts they need to get them to work. Who knows. In any case good stuff is on the way. It will just require a bit of patients

Jay

Hervé
02-09-2004, 08:48 AM
AAAaaaah Paience is the key word today....

:cool:

Hervé
02-09-2004, 08:49 AM
what a word .... I did a mistake,..... PATIENCE... it'll come right....

Yog
02-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Final Render is OK (i own copies of Stage-0 and Stage-1), but I these days I always use Vray (http://www.chaoticdimension.com) for my GI rendering needs.

Both Final Render and Vray are blindingly fast, what takes me hours to render in LW only takes me minutes in Vray (and animations that use GI are even magnitudes faster again), but Final Render tends to sacrifice just a bit too much quality in the search for speed.

Both LW and Vray have brute force methods of calculating GI, and for this Vray is only slightly faster, but where the real speed increase is in how the interpulation works and smoothing algorisms.
Whereas LW just interpulates on a distance threshold, Vray can use a combination of distance, normal angle, and/or colour difference between surfaces.

Just to give some idea of speed, 650k poly model of the inside of an office, 32 light sources, 8 light bounces = 13min/frame, then 7min/frame there after using add to GI solution, full video res, no flickering. Machine specs = 1.5Gig CPU + 512Mb RAM.
I wouldn't have even been able to think of taking on that project with LW.

If I could do all my work within LW, I would be the happiest person here. But I have been to the other side of the hill, and for GI rendering the grass is indeed greener.

Hervé
02-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Have you ever tried to render with eight bounces in LW,.... well I did.... ha ha ha... still laughing of the snail speed.... I could see one pixel after another popping like the big city of Orion... on the good side it allows you to take some brak, ... err hummmm, vacations....

So to conclude Lots of people are holding their breath until 8 ,5 or 9

jamesl
02-09-2004, 06:07 PM
Yeah, LW needs to support modular/external renderers. :eek:

j

Hervé
02-09-2004, 11:37 PM
That is what I think James, coz frankly, the wait of users for a new renderer inside LW is going to be toooo long, I dont think a lot of us are going to wait that long.... and when I see LW8 is not even here, then what about LW9.... 5 years...? NT , accept the fact that you're in the juice, and let other renderers enter....

Hervé
02-09-2004, 11:39 PM
I forgot, by the time we'll have a new renderer, who knows where other apps are going to be.... right now we are very late.... but in a year or so, we'll be super extra late...

cresshead
02-10-2004, 03:22 AM
i think a connection to vray, brazil or dar i say mental ray 3.2 would do lightwave's renders of gi type stuff if not then they need to look at things like vray or even lightscape and use a similar method as they are simple for the artist to operate
rather then the huge amounts of controls that final render gives you...too many sometimes is not good.

steve g

Hervé
02-10-2004, 03:34 AM
gimme one good reason why we dont have any bridge to other renderers..... one is all I ask .....

Matt
02-10-2004, 04:53 AM
The only one I can think of is because when the majority of the code was written for the renderer there was no need to support third party renderers because LW had the best out there!

I agree though, times have changed, the quality of other renderers has surpassed LW (although you pay a _LOT_ for the privilege!)

Having said that, it does pretty damn well considering the lack of development to the renderer. It is _still_ serving my needs despite some improvements I'd love to see.

P.S. Just like to add, while the images on the others sites are very cool indeed, I'd love to know how easy they were to setup, that's a big factor IMO.

ddho1981
02-10-2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Yog
Final Render is OK (i own copies of Stage-0 and Stage-1), but I these days I always use Vray (http://www.chaoticdimension.com) for my GI rendering needs. . .

how complicated is the process of bring lightwave stuff into max to render vray or final render? i do pretty much all arch viz (but intend to dabble in CA once 8 comes out cuz it looks so damn fun).

let's hope they do a super upgrade for 8.x or 9 for GI like they did for CA . . . that would be super sweet.

Yog
02-10-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by ddho1981
how complicated is the process of bring lightwave stuff into max to render vray or final render? i do pretty much all arch viz (but intend to dabble in CA once 8 comes out cuz it looks so damn fun).

let's hope they do a super upgrade for 8.x or 9 for GI like they did for CA . . . that would be super sweet.

I use Deep Exploration for the transfer, as it does a good job of keeping all LW's mapping co-ordinates intact (even LW's non UV mappings get converted to MAX UV mappings).

After that it is just a simple matter of setting up your lights, selecting Vray as your desired renderer, select the quality preset in VRAY (so easy to use it has presets) and hit render.
For extra control you can convert all materials to Vray's own material type (there is a fuction that does this for all materials in a scene automatically), but I rarely find I have to do this.

I find Vray both simpler and more compicated than LW's renderer. Simpler in that you can just use one of their included quality presets, or you can go in and change "everything" manually.

Final Render is very much the same.

Yog
02-10-2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Matt
I'd love to know how easy they were to setup, that's a big factor IMO.

Often easier than you think.
We are often told that LW's GI rendering isn't a total replacement for proper lighting techniques, i.e. you can't just shine a distant light through a window and expect good results, (and for LW this is true), but this is precisely how I do a lot of my stuff with Vray.
Added to that MAX now has a set of materials that mimic real world material properties (masonary, paint, wood, etc) like the old Lightscape presets, and things become easier still.

Lewis
02-10-2004, 11:50 AM
HI !

I just wanted to show this image

It's RADIOSITY and it's only ONE light in scen which shines trough window :). It' looks like it's possible that what Yog says it isn't ;).

It's 57 seconds render (3.15GHz) with low AA and 10*30 rays + 2 bounces. It's not perfect but for that rendertime i tlooks pretty fine ?

BUT i do agree that LW radiosity needs major speed boost so that we can use montecarlo with 3 bounces or so and not wait 2 days for render ;).

Hervé
02-10-2004, 11:03 PM
Yep but as you can see the columns look like it's not connected to the ceiling.... and you have no objects in scene to interact, no textures, probably and aa is on Low.... and this is not Monte_carlo... but I do get your point....

Fact is we just need a simple bridge...

Would it be hard for someone to write a plugin or a script or whatever it takes.... ?

Later

Phil
02-12-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
Yep but as you can see the columns look like it's not connected to the ceiling.... and you have no objects in scene to interact, no textures, probably and aa is on Low.... and this is not Monte_carlo... but I do get your point....

Fact is we just need a simple bridge...

Would it be hard for someone to write a plugin or a script or whatever it takes.... ?

Later

Unless you are going to force a bake of everything in the scene for every frame, it's going to end up somewhat like the MR support in maya - some things are not going to be renderable. Issues like HVs and other post-process effects would like not be easily managed, especially where nulls were being referenced for filter parameters - it's not a trivial concept by any means. Splutterfish's Brazil system demonstrated just how much work had to go into building a viable render engine for 3ds max and I don't underestimate just how much work would be involved in trying to deal with an apparently less open LW system.

You can see issues within LW's own render engine, sometimes resulting from the lack of correct data handling (pixel/environment/image filters can mangle each other by way of an example) so what hope for shifting all this data intact to an external renderer?

If even RIB export was easy, we'd be drowning in exporters, but the fact is that whilst geometry and arguably basic surfacing can be exported by some solutions, it's still the case that this is far from complete (shaders, procedurals, etc. missing). Last time I looked at this, lightman was the most viable solution, but it couldn't translate much of what LW supported natively.

Personally, I'd stump up hard cash for a commercially supported, fully updated RIB exporter that works on every level, but the LW plugin market is very soft commercially so I have no real hope that one will emerge.

Similarly for mental ray exporters - just how much commercial demand is there for these kind of things that would make anyone want to work on it? I don't see return in the retail price of LW to suspect that NT would be able to emulate the recent moves from discreet and alias to bring MR into their base package either.

In that light, it's not so much of a foot bridge across a river, but more of a channel tunnel in terms of the challenges faced.

Freak
02-12-2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
That is what I think James, coz frankly, the wait of users for a new renderer inside LW is going to be toooo long, I dont think a lot of us are going to wait that long.... and when I see LW8 is not even here, then what about LW9.... 5 years...? NT , accept the fact that you're in the juice, and let other renderers enter....

How are NT stopping you from using other renderers?

Well i know that LW does'nt allow direct 3rd party render engines (currently) Evasion3D added Dispersion effects, after many here asked for it....

But really, if it's so important too you.... Why not go and use Maya in conjunction with LW?

Essentially you will have to pay for Mental Ray as a Plugin to LW anyway!

I mean MR and Brazil are more expensive just for the Renderer,
than LW is a complete application...

Point Oven and the Beaver project already allow, communications between the programs, so essentially you already have access to Mental Ray and and Maya's scanline renderer already... (and others)

Renderman can also be used with LW.....

And as for faster rendering, well LW is the ONLY professional application to allow unlimited rendernodes!!!!

If you decide to use MR, Renderman, Brazil or Vray....
you are going to pay through the arse for the privelidge..
And they won't be allowed to use unlimted render nodes,
(as they all lock their nodes)

So if you have a renderfarm, LW's radiosity already is faster than
it would be with MR, (unless you pay for a bunch of licences)

I think it's a rather pointless feature in a way, as it's already what bigger companies do now... ILM, DD etc, all use multiple apps in their pipelines....

Panikos
02-12-2004, 08:12 PM
Lewis, the image you attached makes the columns flying cause the calculation space wasnt detailed enouch, and for this particular detail maybe you need 2 light bounces.

Lewis
02-12-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Panikos
Lewis, the image you attached makes the columns flying cause the calculation space wasnt detailed enouch, and for this particular detail maybe you need 2 light bounces.

It IS 2 bounces in this render - that's the reason why i think its SUPER fast considering 2 bounces and 10*30 radiosity settings :).

I have one faster

THIS one is 32 seconds in 900*450 resolution (just pushed minEV spacing more up)

BTW i think it's little issue with modle 'coz modle isn't mad ein LW and it's transfered form *.dwg whuch is originaly made. I'll check is there any unweld points or so.

Lewis
02-12-2004, 09:02 PM
I just checked model and it had 2278 unwelded points :). SO i belive any of connections isn't been welded (points) so some light sure leaked there but main reason for all errors is just big MEV spacin in radiosity (interpolated) to get desired speed. I'll render montecarlo and interpolated version with new fixed object but i'll show them tommorow since montecarlo with 2 bounces will take time ;).

Hervé
02-12-2004, 10:46 PM
Now how hard is it to bring an entire LW scene in Maya.... ?

Panikos
02-13-2004, 02:32 AM
Lewis, please ..

Can you do me a favour and email me this model and scene.
I would like to render it using a custom tool.
I will let you know of rendering time, as well as I will upload the result.

My email is [email protected]

Thanks

Lewis
02-13-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Panikos
Lewis, please ..

Can you do me a favour and email me this model and scene.
I would like to render it using a custom tool.
I will let you know of rendering time, as well as I will upload the result.

My email is [email protected]

Thanks

No problem I'll send you scene tonight when i get home (i'm at work now). Just remind me with one e-mail to [email protected] so that i don't forget :).

There is few errors in render but considering render time of 32 seconds i think it's comparable to fastest renders outhere ? I saw thos eposts on cgarchitect (where model is from) and even 2-3 minute renders in other renders aren't looking better.

BTW i did rende rmontecarla dn it looks better but it was rendered overnight (about 2-2,5 hours) and i'll post it here.

I just want to prove that ONE light shining torugh window in LW really CAN do realistic lighting - opposite to what YOG said :).

WizCraker
02-13-2004, 11:40 AM
Lewis,

Did I miss it in the text, but what did you use to render this in?

Phil
02-13-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
Now how hard is it to bring an entire LW scene in Maya.... ?

Geometry and texture mapping should carry across - Right Hemisphere has their Deep Exploration package, for example. I'm not sure how much lighting data would be portable and procedurals, etc. would present problems unless you baked them to textures first.

In general, I'd only expect to be able to carry geometry and perhaps basic surfacing over, but then you could always investigate the Beaver Project to see how far their solution has come.

Jure
02-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Yes you can bring down radiosity render times in LW with interpolated solution. But, you have to be aware that this is *only* possible for single frame renders. As soon as you would want to make an animation the blotchiness of the solution would go all crazy. And here is where other renderers like Vray shine. Vray can acctualy save the solution and use it for other frames in animation.
Also the so called interpolated solution is much more advanced and has got many, options you can tweak compared to LW's.
Also Lewis is trying to reduce render time by increasing min. eval. spacing and intrepolation value thus making solution that is very blurred and looks very clean. But unforutnately also quite flat. The detailed shadows are quickly washed away this way. While other GI renderes know where more rays are needed for more detailed shadows and where it needs very few (like on flat surfaces).
Don't get me wrong, I'm a hardcore LW'er but when I saw things vray can do, my jaw dropped.

I got this render very quickly, just by playing with settings around a bit. It's very easy. Now bear in mind I'm no expert in Vray so this could probably get optimized further.
Now judge by yourself...
http://www2.arnes.si/~ssdjjude/temp/46.jpg

Freak
02-13-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
Now how hard is it to bring an entire LW scene in Maya.... ?

Point Oven allows transfers of mesh animation data, between
LW, Messiah and Maya...

http://www.ef9.com/ef9/PO.htm

Beaver project can convert scenes, from Lights to Particles.

http://www.thebeaverproject.com/

- Motion curves for cameras, lights, geometry and nulls
- Deforming geometry such as softbodies or clusters
- Camera properties such as resolution, pixel aspect, frame aspect, lens, focal length
- Light properties such as color, intensity, falloff, spotlight cone and penumbra, shadow mapping
- Polygonal geometry export with UVs and textures
- Rigid and softbody dynamics, particles
- Import of LW scenes and objects into Maya. LW curves are baked on a per frame basis

Lewis
02-13-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Lewis,

Did I miss it in the text, but what did you use to render this in?

LW 7.5c :)

Panikos
02-14-2004, 02:26 AM
730secs

Inhouse tools

labuzz
02-14-2004, 03:24 AM
Hello Panikos,
Looks good ( good bouncing light feeling with details! but grainy ) , but what do you mean with "inhouse tools" ?
BTW you have a bunch of tests renders for this scene here:
http://www.cgarchitect.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000001;p=1

Panikos
02-14-2004, 03:43 AM
Noise can erased at the penalty of extra rendering time
2 methods here :
- Render at bigger Res, so noise will get smaller
- Increase # of samples

Inhouse tools means proprietary technology, not for public use.


:D

Hervé
02-14-2004, 03:54 AM
Hey thanks Phil and Freak, I'll check the Beaver Projet stuff, looks like the way to go....

Panikoooooos , you have a very nice render regarding the render time ! Could you increase your Proprietary tool to see a nice clean render... could you use it in animations.... ?

LAter

Panikos
02-14-2004, 04:15 AM
Yes, it can be used in animations
I am using it on my 35mm short and works great.
I will render a cleaner version and post it later.
;)

Panikos
02-14-2004, 04:50 AM
Here is a cleaner bigger version.

Labuzz, I checked that URL.
I am satisfied with the results I get.
Accurate, good and faster in many cases than the examples shown.

Panikos
02-14-2004, 11:51 AM
:cool:

labuzz
02-14-2004, 12:32 PM
Panik,
nice, what i s the render time( cpu also ) on this one?

Panikos
02-14-2004, 12:40 PM
Salut mon ami Borhan.
I didnt notice the render time, parce que je suis tres occupez.
Mais, cest bon ;)

Next time I will notice it
Merci beaucoup mon ami Borhan