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Ross_DD
02-07-2004, 03:07 AM
We are still waiting....

At since, release date was showed in autumn 2003; now, we are in february 2004!....

Is it a bit "un-correct"?... i don't want believe that.

And in the meantime, we are still waiting....

Bye

Carm3D
02-07-2004, 03:12 AM
Programming is not an exact science. Sometimes bugs can be difficult to find.. and it's exponentially more difficult with a program as complex as a 3D animation system. I'm glad they're not rushing out an incomplete product. Stability is the most important feature.

hrgiger
02-07-2004, 03:19 AM
It wasn't just autumn 2003, it was winter 2003. And at this point, they're really just a little over a month past their deadline as they had until Dec 31st 2003.

Johnnyx
02-07-2004, 03:19 AM
..I'm with Carm3D - its not as if I can't get on with my work or anything... I have pre- ordered, and when it arrives I don't want any hastle... so bug fix away guys!

(don't get me wrong.. I an still really looking forward to the release.. !!)

(woohoo - edit button!)

Johnnyx
02-07-2004, 03:21 AM
err... that's "I'm WITH Carm3D" ... I really should read these back before I post!

J

Carm3D
02-07-2004, 03:30 AM
I'm Johnnyx - I have discovered the edit button.

;)

Ross_DD
02-07-2004, 03:58 AM
Hi,

(sorry for my very bad english language)

Please, HR excuse me for my chronologic error.
also i don't want any bug too and it is right but... why publish LW8 release date in very early time?
This is my simple doubt...
Programming is not an exact-science and we are just a little over the deadline, Dec2003.
It's all right...

Is it not right make advertising about LW8 when it will effective shipping for sure?

(i hope is clear...)

Thank You Very Much.

CoryC
02-07-2004, 07:02 AM
I might have this mixed up :confused: but I thought on Feb 2nd Lightwave 8 came out for a moment, saw it's raytraced shadow, and ran back inside. According to legend that means 6 more weeks of speculation.

:D

mlinde
02-07-2004, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Ross_DD
why publish LW8 release date in very early time? Well, I'm going to drop in and suggest that Newtek targeted a release date based on feedback from the development team saying something like "We can have it done by Christmas"

Then Christmas rolls around, and they are still looking for sneaky bugs, and they have to let the date slide by so the software is better. It happens to every software developer eventually. They go to add a really cool feature set, and suddenly the bugs in the new features take longer to remove than was expected. I know it's happened to me WAY too many times.

jr_sunshine
02-07-2004, 11:22 AM
All I can say is "I told you (NT Forum viewers) so.

Back in Nov 2003, I predicted the LW team had more bugs than they could handle with the new dopesheet (and scene editor) and that they would miss their date and that we would probably not see LW 8 until at least March 2004. Typically, one of the LW marketing guys will post about comments like the one I made back in Nov 2003, but the comment never happened. So, I can only guess I was at least in the ball park on my prediction. I freely admit it was and still is pure speculation, but as we approach March 2004 my prediction is getting more and more accurate.

Anyway, I am still disappointed about the delay but the upside is we are getting a very cool upgrade to LW very soon.

Regards,

DigiLusionist
02-08-2004, 11:41 AM
No one is asking NT to rush the release. Just to let us know when they anticipate the release. They must have some idea by now to make an announcement.

Hobbyists and still image producers seem to have no clue how involved the process is to complete an entire (professional-caliber) character animation project. If they did, they'd understand completely why those of us who are very small studios would like to use the new CA tools in LW8.

In order to use them, we need to know when LW8's coming out. If we have no idea when it's coming out, we can't plan LW-centric productions.

If we can't plan productions around LW, we are forced to move on to Maya. If we use Maya, we pay a hell of a lot more, waste time learning it and working it into the pipeline, and having to find folks who know how to use it.

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a LW-centric studio.

So, I hope some of you guys who deride our frustration with silence will take a moment to think beyond your immediate needs, and try to understand why we NEED the communication from NT. It's not the frivolous rantings/whinings of some bonehead users. It's basic professional marketing required by pros who have invested time and money into relying on LW.

Andrew Sweet
02-08-2004, 11:55 AM
How many people on here know how to use 7.5 fully.......I know many very talented artist's that still use 6 and with stunning results, so please folks let's just wait a little longer, in the meantime create some art...

Andy Sweet

Phil
02-08-2004, 11:57 AM
I would just like a list of bugs squashed so that the 8.0 update can be considered fairly. I'm not happy that there has been no such list with the number of outstanding issues that are known about in 7.5. Why on earth can't the dev team simply throw a bugs fixed list up there - surely one must exist for QA to run through for new builds?

That's really my main sticking point in relation to 8.0 and there's no reason to throw money at NT for 8.0 if there is no certainty that issues long standing in the LW code haven't been addressed. Vague assurances don't help. Rushed releases don't help. More information about the bread and butter of LW - stability, compatibility, etc. - are of vital importance.

DigiLusionist
02-08-2004, 12:42 PM
Andrew, as a small production studio, I model, texture, rig, animate, light, and render. So, yes, I use ALL of LW. For those of you who don't know or use the majority of LW's tools, that might be a relevant question.

Have you ever animated a show in LW 7.5 with thirty-five characters that each had to be rigged and animated? It's really a massive undertaking in 7.5 if it's to be done in less than a year.

We're using Maya now for the rigging and animation, and it's a huge financial burden and an artistic shift I would've preferred not having to make.

Yog
02-08-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Phil
I would just like a list of bugs squashed so that the 8.0 update can be considered fairly. I'm not happy that there has been no such list with the number of outstanding issues that are known about in 7.5. Why on earth can't the dev team simply throw a bugs fixed list up there - surely one must exist for QA to run through for new builds?

Unfortunately that would entail admitting there WERE bugs with the current release.

We all know there are bugs in LW7.5, as there are in just about every software out there. But there are a couple good reasons for not publically admitting it before the next release is out.

1) The day after Newtek anounce a bug fixed list (prior to LW8 being available), you can bet at least one rival company will run with the headline "Newtek admit to "X" number of serious bugs in their current release".

2) It creates a bit of a sticky problem by saying to existing customers "Yes we did sell you software with bugs in it, and if you would like to spend an extra $500 we will fix them for you".

They might be small reasons, but you could be sure some people would make an issue out of them.

Dave Davies
02-08-2004, 01:25 PM
Some people in here are just plain amazing - they complain about Newtek missing a deadline AND in the same post, they demand a new release date! I can't be the only one who sees the irony in that!

Long time ago, Newtek used to announce release dates well ahead of time, and they usually hit them dead on. Then with Version 4.0, they missed the target date, and got beat up very badly for it.

Their response was to quit announcing, and just show the product when it was ready to ship. I don't blame them, and with the reactions I'm seeing in here, it wouldn't surprise me if that same policy isn't being re-considered.

At least now, they give us examples of new features, which is a great idea! I love to know what tools are coming. I even delay some projects to take advantage of them, but I would never rely on having them by a certain date in order to commit to a project! That's just sheer idiocy!

Let's face it, there must be valid reasons for the delays - after all, Newtek MAKES MONEY on a major release ! That tells me they're not holding it back on purpose.

As for telling us a new date - would you, with the heat they're taking for missing the last one?

Those who pre-purchased shouldn't have a problem with it either - software release dates are always tentative - always have been. Anyone who doesn't know that should keep their money in their pocket.

And why should any company announce their internal problems to the world? Depending what they are, that just might further undermine our exisiting investment.

Let's face it folks, when the Amiga died, Newtek pulled off one of the most difficult and spectacular moves in this industry - surviving until they could port a very complex application to an entirely new platform. That deserves some credit, not to mention giving them benefit of the doubt!

However, if we want them to stop all communications about new releases, we just need to keep up the bitching.

Dave Davies

Carm3D
02-08-2004, 01:37 PM
I was glad for the delay.. I couldn't afford the upgrade until a week ago, and now I'm gonna get DFX+! Yay! :D

Aegis
02-08-2004, 02:16 PM
Let's face it folks, when the Amiga died, Newtek pulled off one of the most difficult and spectacular moves in this industry - surviving until they could port a very complex application to an entirely new platform. That deserves some credit, not to mention giving them benefit of the doubt!

Actually the PC port was under way from the point 3.5 was released on the Amiga with the PC, Alpha and Irix versions debuting alongside the Amiga at v4.0 - LightWave 3D 5.0 was also released on the Amiga and whilst timing-wise NewTek were a little late to the PC market (3D Studio had already gotten a big chunk of the market) it's incorrect to say that NewTek had to "survive" making the codebase multi-platform. The demise of the Amiga did impact the Video Toaster though and it was a long time before NewTek were ready with VideoToasterNT during which time they had to survive pretty much on LightWave sales alone.

I'm not particularly in a hurry for 8 to arrive - I'd rather it was a stable release but many people have pre-ordered and they expected to get what they paid for in December - can't blame 'em for being angry. As to release dates, well NewTek couldn't really have done the whole pre-order thing without one: "Pay us now and some time in the future we'll send you a update" :D

Andrew Sweet
02-08-2004, 02:18 PM
Digi..

I also produce complex work, and it's also good to use *other* tools and yes it's not cheap, surely the more tools you use the better your options, again lets wait as so far those 8 demos look very good, and I'm sure it's not far off.

Andy

DigiLusionist
02-08-2004, 03:59 PM
That's a sweet looking... whatever it is, Andrew.

I do use other tools. I prefer the LW workflow for the most part.

Guys, I'm not sure what is terribly unreasonable about wanting to know when the heck the software I am relying on will appear.

At the very least, is it not UNDERSTANDABLE that I want to use LW and have access to LW artists to do the project, but without any idea of what is going on with the software, that I am justified in being concerned about business decisions?

All last year there was mention of LW8 coming out. I waited to start a character-intensive project because I preferred to purchase LW seats over Maya. However, I wasn't about to plunk down that much money to preorder. Cashflow would kill me.

Then, LW8 was announced as coming out, with a projected release time frame (not a specific date, but a timeframe). So, again, I waited.

This was followed by no further info for a loooong time. Only recently has a spec sheet about features been released. And, no indication of when LW8 will actually be released.

That's six to eight months of waiting for information and software. Now, I don't get why you think it is unreasonable for guys in my position to need to know something in order to make informed business decisions.

Am I the only one who feels this way? Anyone?

Damn. It is not only frustrating to wonder about this, but to have to read responses that negate/trivialize/dismiss another LW pro's POV...

Such things have caused me to mull over why the heck I'm even a LW user anymore. Financially, it's become expensive (timewise, especially) and frustrating.

And now that I've started using Maya, it really makes me wonder why other LWers would rather chase off guys like me, who have been members of this community FOR YEARS, than to lend understanding and moral support.

I guess if it's no problem for you, it must not be a problem for others.

Nemoid
02-08-2004, 05:21 PM
Well. its clear that when a studio has deadlines to respect and decisions to take, wich means time and money investėments they need to have a precise reference about dates and so on.

the only thing i don't understand, is why waiting for a new release when you just can do great jobs with 7.5 right now.

ok, some things like rigging are way more difficult in it, and i'm sure they will be faster in 8 for sure, but in one side you have currently a tool to use .
on the other side, you have a new release to wait, with new features you'll have to learn as well. so, in these tasks,when deadlines are close, the best way you can do it faster is using 7.5, maybe with other tools like TSM, for example, wich can be efficient for huge productions.

probably this delay, is caused from the change of team wich happened in Nt. they are a good team, work very hard, but when this genre of things happen, they can have some prob at first , just because they have no great experience on working on that app and features. that's why a company can't always decide : ok, the app will be out that precise day.

Hope that Lw will come soon, though and over all, I hope it will be a great step further, and the same have to be the entire 8.x cycle, during wich the new team will have the possibility to tweak lw more and more and make it grow with its features and workflow.

cresshead
02-08-2004, 05:43 PM
it'll arrive!

i'm still busy "learning" lightwave 7.5 with some CDrom videos from splinegod i bought the other day as well as creating a whole load of 3d illustrations for sport training excersises wit 3ds max so if LW8 came out today it'll be next to fusion...waiting for me to have time to load it up!

there's so much in the current version i havn't touched yet.

though if lw8 had come out before the new year then i may have used it on the book illustrations that i'm currently doing in max and character studio due to the setup time lightwave 7.5 may have taken compared to character studio with 3dsmax..that's how max got chosen for my current work....still the money i earn from that will go toward a Mac to run lightwave 8 on!

later!

DigiLusionist
02-08-2004, 07:19 PM
Nemoid, a huge consideration for me on this project is having so many characters singing and dancing at the same time, in addition to performing non-standard actions, such as acrobatics, tossing things around, etc.

I don't want to use mo-cap. So, in order to do something of this magnitude with 7.5, I'd have to have thirty character animators alone. If I could afford thirty animators, I could afford a full XSI production pipeline. With the improvements to LW's CA tools that I have been following, the task may be possible for a team of ten animators to pull off.

It's a matter of scope, really. It's possible to do what I want in LW, but with tons of people and money. Maya and XSI already can pull it off, but at an exponential amount of money to me. So, it becomes a matter of trying to figure out if I can do the project with LW8, or not. The problem for me has been how can I figure that out if I don't know enough about the state of the software.

I certainly would like a stable enough release to use in a production, so I don't think it would be good for anyone if NT rushed. I'm not saying rush it. I'm merely asking when it will come out. Simple question, really. One that is crucial to my business planning.

I don't hate NT, or anything. I wouldn't have been training people on LW these last six years, if I did. If anything, I really want to use their product. Otherwise, I wouldn't have waited this long and I would've just completely blown off LW by now.

For now, I am producing a demo with Maya, and if the tools in LW8 bear out, and I haven't completely lost my taste for it, I will order the ten seats I think I need.

animotion
02-08-2004, 10:37 PM
DigiLusionist, your opinions are just as valuable as any one elses on this forum. There are valid points on both sides of the issue. Don't feel like you are being alienated. I want LW8 as much as anyone here but I think I understand what NT is up against. I just hope the wait will be worth it when it ships.

I personally think that LW8 needs some serious re-working on the joint deformations issue, I have spent many frustrating days with that one. Also more motion mixer functions are needed. I think these things will help LW8 meet the huge anticipated expectations NT has created for LW8.

DigiLusionist
02-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Thanks for that, Animotion. I guess I'm freaking out about now due to the huge personal investment I'm putting into the project.

The deformation and MM issues you're talking about are indeed very important CA considerations I have been hoping are addressed.

It certainly is amazing how much stuff the NT programmers are having to tackle in order to bring LW's CA tools to where their spec sheets are saying they will be!

gjjackson
02-09-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by CoryC
I might have this mixed up :confused: but I thought on Feb 2nd Lightwave 8 came out for a moment, saw it's raytraced shadow, and ran back inside. According to legend that means 6 more weeks of speculation.

:D

That's really, I mean really a good one.

Nemoid
02-09-2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
Nemoid, a huge consideration for me on this project is having so many characters singing and dancing at the same time, in addition to performing non-standard actions, such as acrobatics, tossing things around, etc.

I don't want to use mo-cap. So, in order to do something of this magnitude with 7.5, I'd have to have thirty character animators alone. If I could afford thirty animators, I could afford a full XSI production pipeline. With the improvements to LW's CA tools that I have been following, the task may be possible for a team of ten animators to pull off.

It's a matter of scope, really. It's possible to do what I want in LW, but with tons of people and money. Maya and XSI already can pull it off, but at an exponential amount of money to me. So, it becomes a matter of trying to figure out if I can do the project with LW8, or not. The problem for me has been how can I figure that out if I don't know enough about the state of the software.

I certainly would like a stable enough release to use in a production, so I don't think it would be good for anyone if NT rushed. I'm not saying rush it. I'm merely asking when it will come out. Simple question, really. One that is crucial to my business planning.

I don't hate NT, or anything. I wouldn't have been training people on LW these last six years, if I did. If anything, I really want to use their product. Otherwise, I wouldn't have waited this long and I would've just completely blown off LW by now.

For now, I am producing a demo with Maya, and if the tools in LW8 bear out, and I haven't completely lost my taste for it, I will order the ten seats I think I need.

Well, you are right and not right at the same time. you have to do really a huge project, but huge projects involve money and people with every package you use. actually, i believe lw 8 could help ypu on doing it better, but frankly i don't actually believe you could do all that stuff alone and in no time only because you'll use 8 instead of 7.5. you'll have to learn how new tools will work, and being a new release maybe (i say MAYBE ) there will be some initial little prob or bug. now, since many months are passed an Lw8 is not there yet, and you started to do your job with Maya,there are 2 possibilities.

1) continue to do what you are doing now, with Maya and Lw7.5 together, maybe considering a way to get them working together in a mixed pipeline so that you use every strong point of what you currently have at your disposal.
maybe you'll need smth like MB as well, wich is fortunately quite cheap and rocks for CA and autorigging. (incidentallyKaydara's Fbx plugins allows to import scene element Lw/maya, and vice versa)this way you will have unlimited rendering and modeling capabilities of Lw, coupled with Maya flexibility and MB power for CA. enough for a bigger work with a few collaborators, maybe 2-4 guys. then , when 8 will arrive, since you just have 7.5 , the upgrade is cheaper, and you will have IMO 2 powerfull tools instead of 1.

2) Keep waiting for 8 only, but this IMO is a bit riskful right now.waiting means loosing money. i can understand the wait is long, and NT deserves it too in many, many cases.

But your case is for me an exception to a general rule.

animotion
02-09-2004, 10:21 AM
DigiLusionist, I understand your situation but, I think its a little risky myself. What if you wait and then come across some devistating bugs? If I were you I would start out using 7.5c as much as possible and then use 8 for things that would be too counter productive to do in 7.5c. This way the time lost is minimized.

DigiLusionist
02-09-2004, 11:03 AM
Oh, like I said, I can't wait anymore. I'm doing the demo now with Maya. If the LW8 CA tools look up to the task I have, I'll use it. Otherwise, I've been using MB for the last five months, and may just use that with LW for the actual full project.

Maya is nowhere near as intuitive or fun to use as LW. Which is why I want to use LW8 for my project. MB is really cool, though!

gjjackson
02-09-2004, 11:17 AM
I've found MB to be pretty awesome myself. I was hoping for something close to it for v8. I suspect it's far too much to expect from an upgrade. LW would probably have to be massive to incorporate a tool such as that. As with anything you can't expect one application to do everything. Otherwise you'd have what Windows is attempting. I can see it now, Windows ships with built in LW. LOL.

Phil
02-09-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Yog
Unfortunately that would entail admitting there WERE bugs with the current release.

<snip>

They might be small reasons, but you could be sure some people would make an issue out of them.

Well yes, but given the huge list of known issues, workarounds and documented bug fixes that accompany 3ds max releases (just one example), I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I get the impression from many that the perceived current attitude from NT in relation to bugs in LW, publically I stress, is not too dissimilar to King Canute's. When bug reports have been filed, I've recently been lucky enough to get a confirmation from Deuce that the issues have been verified. That's as much info as I have - no indication of whether a 7.x patch will appear or whether 8.0 will fix them. As such, there is still no order from me for 8.0.

I don't expect them to hold my request above anybody elses's, but I do think it's a legitimate request that bug fix related information is made available. If nothing else, NT could simply point at the old devs and say 'look what our great new dev team managed to fix in the code - you can trust us with the future of your graphics business.' *shrug* It would certainly make me feel more confident. This is honestly, for me, a higher priority than any number of new features in 8.0 - the number of issues in 7.5 is costly at this point.

Nemoid
02-10-2004, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
Oh, like I said, I can't wait anymore. I'm doing the demo now with Maya. If the LW8 CA tools look up to the task I have, I'll use it. Otherwise, I've been using MB for the last five months, and may just use that with LW for the actual full project.

Maya is nowhere near as intuitive or fun to use as LW. Which is why I want to use LW8 for my project. MB is really cool, though!

You're doing right, for now.

Maya unfortunately have to be completely customized and loaded of MEL scripts to make it more intuitive and user friendly for the artist.the good side is that you can customize it project related. Its very powerfull, but its made more for great team, with TD and so on.

MB rocks! :)


I'd like too that Lw 8 come out now: Lw is so fun to use that makes your day better sometimes.
But we have to face reality : Nt needed a bit more time.

this is also because they received tons of bug reports and feature suggestions , having started to listen users very much. :)
so they need a little more time to debug some Lw areas to make the app. rockin' solid.

DigiLusionist
02-10-2004, 08:55 AM
Yes, when they finally serve up LW8, it will be a fun day.

*salivating* I'm hungrily awaiting the new dish...

Nemoid
02-11-2004, 01:44 AM
LOL :)

I am drooling as well.