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Prosprctor
02-10-2003, 10:22 AM
Poll for CG UPDATE

Gordon
02-14-2003, 06:03 PM
For the most part, I love the CG! For what it does, it does well. For what it doesn't do, Aura, FxMonkey and Lightwave are nice compliments. However, it is not perfect and some things are just a bit too hard for the average user. Let's put together some constructive suggestions for how we would like to see the CG improved!

Things I like

Quality is great.
Tons of control for the face, border, shadow, fill.
Graphics tools with similar extensive control.
Image maps as textures for objects
Mulitple pages are all saved as individual TGAs with alpha.


Things I don't like - suggestions for improvement.

No align to screen commands
It is a bit too hard to do some simple 3D animation even given FX monkey. I can create some stuff but the average user cannnot.
An operator/effect that we could drop on the time line that open up the CG interface would speed up the
I don't mind using TED to create the motion paths for CG but again the lack of spline controls makes it a bit less than what we need.

Gordon
02-14-2003, 06:23 PM
Things I don't like - continued

Formatting a list of credits! Trying to line up a double column of 'Role' and 'Person' is a significant pain.
Some feel that the quality of the scroll is not as good as even the original Toaster. They may have a point.

Prosprctor
02-14-2003, 10:33 PM
When you say Quality

Quality is great.
Do you mean program or output.

I think the program itself IS great, the output on the otherhand....well...run it side by side with either CNN or Fox news and see how the lower thirds compare. I use the same TVs (size and brand, bought both at same time) so I don't get the quality of one brand over the other, and I switch incoming cables so that I check to see if 1 TV that may be a little off.

The Aura used for lower thirds are just as clean but the CG lower thirds are not (jaggies). Also LW graphics are sparkling clean so it rules out a bad signal from VT2, And you already commented on the Rolls so I won't go furthur into that.

We would like to get a clean working CG before we have to pay for it again, even tho it is just a part of the overall cost of the VT2.

If I went to Sears and bought a stove and 3 burners worked fine (LW,AURA,Toaster) and 1 burner only went to medium (CG),I would be upset if Sears told me I had to buy the newest model to get the 4th burner workin right, because they say the the 4th burner at least works on the model I got.

And we aren't saying we should get a totally bug-free program when it firsts comes out, (that would be impossable), but there have been 7 (?) VT2 updates and the CG is still the same.

steveg
02-14-2003, 10:55 PM
It is obvious that NewTek feels the cg is just fine, per Paul's response in an earlier thread. Even after many times NewTek said they are aware of the problems with the cg and they are "working on it", they now feel comfortable in not fixing it for us until we pay for it again. You can tell by this Poll that they don't want to fix it for free unless we absolutely insist. Problem is there is always someone who loves all the problems and insists it doesn't need fixing. How do you fight that logic? Then there is always someone that insists we should be happy to pay more money for bug fixes. If you so much extra money that you can afford to pay over and over for bug fixes maybe you can afford to help pay for some of us who are tight on dollars instead of speaking for us. It is apparent that NewTek has already made their plan to force us to upgrade to T3 by not giving us a good cg until we do. Tim didn't used to use these kind of sales tactics and I don't understand why he is now.

Prosprctor
02-15-2003, 11:21 AM
Looks like it hu?
And I don't understand it either. The Amiga days was ALWAYS----QUALITY FIRST!!!"

Maby now it is because there are so many programs out compared to the early days that ya have to get the newest and greatest tricks out in the marketplace first and get the jump on the rest even if there are problems.

I must be too picky in my old age.

Gordon
02-15-2003, 12:32 PM
Wait a minute. Don't confuse my opinion and this poll with anything from Newtek. I find that Newtek is bending over backward to improve every area of the Toaster and we can see more improvement on the CG. So don't go suggesting that Newtek doesn't care or won't be improving their product - nothing could be further from the truth.

First of all, you may have a valid point about the quality - even if I see it differently. There should always be room for discussion. Perhaps, because of the way I do CG, I don't see the problem that you do. I may need to re-evaluated with a more critical eye.

OTOH, perhaps I see the same thing and interpret it differently. You see 'jaggies' on a TV, (which will have built in sharpness filters so that the blurry broadcast pictures look sharper), and I see great detail on a broadcast monitor, some detail which I know will be lost once it goes through the smoothing process of TV broadcasting.

Now to cover why you might not be seeing the same results from Toaster output as you may see on TV broadcasts.

There are a lot of factors that go into how good CG will look. The most important factor is the fonts used. Unless you have purchased commercial fonts, (and not all of them are of great quality), then you can't really say that the Toaster doesn't produce as good or better results than CNN or other broadcast. You can't expect the Video Toaster to turn all the 'included' Windows OS fonts into broadcast quality. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Remember the Compugraphic fonts that you had to purchase and cost $45/font? It is these professional fonts, (again - not professional fonts are suitable for broadcast TV), that you would need to use in order to get the same results. I have purchased a CD with 2002 fonts for only $35 and you get what you pay for. 99.9% of the fonts are crap - low resolution with not enough 'hints' to produce excellent results.

However, you also mentioned that you like the output from the bitmaps rendered in Aura and Lightwave. I will check into this and see for myself. Aura has built-in anti-aliasing, (which can't be turned off - at least when scaling a picture), and the same holds true for Lightwave.

I just ran a quick test and the CG page created and saved in TosterCG and a CG page created in Aura, using the same font, (Arial), same size, (48), same border, (black - 2 point), same color face, (medium grey), produced the same antialiased result. Not exactly the same as I noted that the 'i' was 'dotted' differently and the font in Aura was a percent or two smaller, but so close to the same that when zoomed in at 200% you couldn't really see any difference in antialising.

But based on your input:

Suggestions for improvement - continued

User selectable anti-aliasing for ToasterCG.


is still a good suggestion to make up for lesser quality fonts.

Paul Lara
02-15-2003, 12:51 PM
Steve said
It is obvious that NewTek feels the cg is just fine

Steve,
NewTek readily acknowledges that CG could be better, TEd could be better, Switcher could be better, DDR could be better. . .

. . . and we are indeed working on making them ALL better.
To say that "I am still waiting for a CG" is like saying there is no nonlinear editor in Toaster, because it doesn't meet your needs.


You can tell by this Poll that ...

If you'll notice, it was prospctor that posted this poll, not NewTek.


we should be happy to pay more money for bug fixes.

There has never been a paid upgrade from NewTek that was just bug fixes. In fact, out of the seven free updates we have provided to the Toaster community in the past year, none of them were just bug fixes, but also included new, requested features and optimizations as well. NewTek works hard to provide the most features for the best cost for any video or graphics professional, in a manner that is not even comparable to any other company in this industry. To that end, I believe NewTek is succeeding.

ted
02-15-2003, 03:00 PM
To that end, I believe NewTek is succeeding. [/B]

Ditto!!!

steveg
02-16-2003, 12:42 AM
I am not trying to out debate you Paul. I know and you know the cg is not adiquate. If you feel you have to charge to upgrade the cg just do it and we will see how many used toasters show up for sale. That makes it real simple. I can't believe that after stringing us along, all this time, by saying that the new cg is in the works you expect us to pay for it again. I won't say anything else on the matter. Just do what you think will make you the most money and we'll all see what happens.

videoguy
02-16-2003, 07:56 AM
dont you huys realize how lucky we are newtek is a great company that provides awesome products and even better customer support. try getting anything from AVID for free! I think newtek should charge for the next upgrade i am sure it will be well worth it and it will allow newtek to contiune improving all their software.

SBowie
02-16-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by steveg

I can't believe that after stringing us along, all this time, by saying that the new cg is in the works you expect us to pay for it again.

And that's where you lose the sympathy of most of your readers. Most of us have been dealing with NewTek for years, and know that language like "stringing us along", "gouging," and "rip-off" have no place in the same paragraph with the name NewTek. It's beyond ludicrous, and calls into question your reasonableness.

You have mentioned your disatisfaction is partly due to your expection of a CG in VTNT 1.0. Those expectations were unfounded, as has been pointed out several times. Whether based on inadequate research or a dealer that misled you I can't say. NewTek never promised a standalone CG app as part of the first release - period. I don't see why they should be criticised because you didn't do your homework.

Now the CG was an expected part of the T[2] bundle, and lo and behold, it exists. It could be better, but I've seen worse. NewTek fulfilled it's commitment, per usual. True, it may not have satisfied all our wishes, but then this is hardly a huge surprise in a Ver.1 application.

Even so some actually seem to like it, and no solid moral argument can be put forward that NewTek has failed to live up to their promise. Bluster doesn't change the facts.

Even if your existing complaints were resolved, someone else could state that they expected the CG to have native DVE's like some other apps, and that since it doesn't meet that expectation NewTek has ripped them off. But no-one promised that either.

NewTek has shown sympathy with hopes to see the CG improved, and have stated that they are working on it. In witness of their good intentions, it has been updated several times during the last year. BUT - they've never once promised a new version or replacement app as part of the current release.

You're not happy with it -- you're not alone. But you haven't been ripped off, and no amount of vehement name-calling is going to alter that fact. You seem to expect them to hold up any significant upgrade of the entire system until every last bug is squashed in the CG. I can't think of any developer in existence that has ever pursued a policy like that. How you make your future decisions vis a vis paid upgrades is your business, but I really doubt many share your sceptical attitude about the way NewTek conducts itself. They're not perfect - no-one is -- but they are usually at the top of the class.

steveg
02-16-2003, 11:29 PM
I was not going to say anything else until you, sbowie, have eroniously stated that NewTek "Ripped me off". Please do not put words that I did not say in my mouth. Show me in my post where I said NewTek ripped me off. I did not say that. You did. I tried to clearly say that when NewTek said they were working on a new cg to replace the current inadiquate one they did not mention that they were going to charge more money for it. They just continued to say they were working on it. then after many many months someone stated that there would be a T3. Then someone said the cg fix was not going to be free as I am sure many expected, but, instead would be part of a charged for upgrade. Why are you so mad that the cg which has been discussed to be inadiquate by many others for quite some time, needs to be fixed for all of us? I will repeat my final say on the matter. If NewTek feels justified in charging for the upgrade to the cg, Let them. We will see then how many accepted the decision and how many didn't. My posts were not made to anger anyone who works for NewTek, nor to get anyone to miss quote me. They were meant to state an opinion on a subject that apparently I am the only one who feels this way about. Thank you, Steve. By the way I never considered buying an avid because they do charge for upgrades the way they do. So please do not confuse the Toaster with the Avid. I didn't buy a Hugo either.

ted
02-17-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by steveg
If NewTek feels justified in charging for the upgrade to the cg, Let them. We will see then how many accepted the decision and how many didn't.

Steve, you are right. They will have to live by their decision. But speaking for myself, I'm sure I'll be going forward with all the improvements because as technology continues, I don't want to get left behind.

I don't think Microsoft ever warned me that they would improve and move past Windows 93, and I'd have to keep paying for those weak, but working programs, to keep getting better.

But basic common sense helped me understand, that's part of our world. Thank goodness things keep getting better!!!:)

SBowie
02-17-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by steveg

Please do not put words that I did not say in my mouth. Show me in my post where I said NewTek ripped me off. SNIP...

By the way I never considered buying an avid because they do charge for upgrades the way they do. So please do not confuse the Toaster with the Avid.

No, you didn't used the words - my apology. You just implied it clearly. I quote:

"unless this next version is free I for one will not trust NewTek again"

"NewTek said they are aware of the problems with the cg and they are "working on it", they now feel comfortable in not fixing it for us until we pay for it again."

"It is apparent that NewTek has already made their plan to force us to upgrade to T3 by not giving us a good cg until we do."


Those comments allege a rip-off, even if not calling it one outright.

BTW, Steve - I never mentioned Avid (even by inference) in anything I wrote. Perhaps, like me, in your post you were responding to sentiments found elsewhere in thread as well. No apology necessary.

Rich Deustachio
02-17-2003, 12:44 PM
Steve G,

If the new paid upgrade has lots of new features that we all have been asking for, along with a new CG that works the way we expect a CG to work, then It would be worth paying for the upgrade, but if it is just a new CG and some bug fixes which I have heard it is not the case, then I would agree with you about not wanting to pay. I have faith in Newtek that they will release a new version well worth the cost of the upgrade along with a CG that will satisfy us all.

RomainR
02-17-2003, 04:17 PM
Damn I went on a trip for ten days and it seems like a lot has changed and then I read this thread and realised that maybe not.

This reminds me of the time I use to PLAY in a forum of my previous system. Certain people would just nag and whine all the time and no matter what.

Common people, we all have to make a living. You can't expect to have unlimited free upgrades to be included with a card that costs only $2,495 (if I remember correctly).

The main thing the T[2] cg is really crapy at is scrolls. But hey if you bought T[2] just for CG than you must have issues...

It's not like there are no other solutions. You got Aura and any paint program that can dish out a 720 * 1000 will give you a more than decent scroll.

Make Movies, not war.

SBowie
02-17-2003, 04:45 PM
D'accord... c'est assez.

Tod Cole
02-17-2003, 05:45 PM
Breathe...Again...Again...
:o

Prosprctor
02-17-2003, 07:07 PM
Rich
CG that works the way we expect a CG to work

That's what we want

Romain
Common people, we all have to make a living. You can't expect to have unlimited free upgrades to be included with a card that costs only $2,495

If you read the thread all the way thru then you would see that we didn't say we wanted unlimited free upgrades, just the bugs out of 1 version before we have to pay for a 'NEW' version, that has new things and new eyecandy stuff.

But I am going to take Gordons responce to heart before I say anything more, so I will look for a program that will let me take windows fonts and give them a higher resolution (so far I only found ones that let you do 250X250 resolution), or else I will look into getting the 'Professionell broadcast fonts' he suggested.

So if anyone knows about either and would post it here then I will research them.

ScorpioProd
02-18-2003, 01:03 AM
Well, Digital Juice's Editors Toolkit comes with some professional fonts. I haven't gotten to try them yet but I've heard they are good ones.

Gordon
02-18-2003, 08:23 PM
Hi;
Thanks 'Prosprctor' for considering the suggestion. Using the Microsoft Arial font, I created some lower thirds in font sizes from 20 to 49 points and I just can't see where they could be any better. The ToasterVision program out monitor shows jaggies of course and this is to be expected but the final output on the Ikegami monitor is just absolutely perfectly antialiased.

I will also try my Panasonic monitor and take a still photo of it. I doubt that the still will capture the resolution due to interlacing but I'll give it a try. If it works, I will try and attach a photo.

What font and font sizes are you using that produce jaggies?

Prosprctor
02-18-2003, 09:09 PM
OK checked out some font making programs and nothing came up to make Windows fonts a higher resolution.
Then checked out the Digital Juice tip....599 for the toolbox

All I need is the fonts but not all the backgrounds because I am totally happy with the Aura-LW-CG graphics output,and couldn't see that investment for 50 fonts.

BUT I did seem to make a discovery about the CG that the Amiga CG didn't have (maby it was because the Amiga did it automatically ??) don't know but there was no setting for it there, but there is now.

It even cured the roll output :)

I set the Alpha down to 80 on all the lettering and the bleeding,jaggies, strange colors, go away

Even on the thinnest fonts and any size or width I set.
The rolls are really readable now, even red and green letters.

Some fonts need lower settings (lowest I did on any font was 72 of the 30 different families I tried)

Was this something that everyone but me knew:confused:
I don't remember reading about that in any program discriptions.

And Gordon;
because of the theme of the project (now going into it's second year) I am using the bloody lettering (dracula) and the Zapped( looks like lightning)
and I use the TVs as monitors because that's what consumers have.