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Prosprctor
02-10-2003, 09:13 AM
No posts????
EEEEKKK

How will NT know that CG needs some work if no-one lets them know?
OK here is first:p

HMMMM this was weird.. asked for fields to be filled so this might not post right. maby cuz it's the first ?

Tod Cole
02-10-2003, 09:40 AM
Cool new discussion board.
:p

steveg
02-12-2003, 12:11 AM
I agree the cg needs work. NewTek used to acknowledge this. I believe it is important for NewTek to give us a good cg before charging for upgrades. After that they can charge for all the upgrades they like.

Paul Lara
02-12-2003, 06:24 AM
Work is well underway on the next major version of Toaster, which will include a re-write of CG and re-working the flow.

Paul Lara
02-12-2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Prosprctor
How will NT know that CG needs some work if no-one lets them know?

NewTek knows.
NewTek has received plenty of wonderful suggestions for improving CG.

creach
02-12-2003, 08:12 AM
sorry to get a teesny bit OT, but what is Revolution [2]?

Dan

Prosprctor
02-12-2003, 10:33 AM
Revolution1..Toaster on the Amiga
Revolution2..Toaster on the PC

Thanks Paul...

"next major version of Toaster,"
This mean PAID upgrade????
OR
Upgrade for the CG

Scott Bates
02-12-2003, 01:54 PM
AFAIK, everytime they say "version" they (seem to) mean paid upgrade, not a free patch or build. YMMV since I'm not sure any of us have yet mastered AlienSpeak. :confused:

steveg
02-13-2003, 01:56 PM
Paul: "Work is well underway on the next major version of Toaster, which will include a re-write of CG and re-working the flow."

I hope the cg will be upgraded before this new version for all of us who have already paid for what was advertised with a decent cg. Unless this next version is free I for one will not trust NewTek again if I have to pay for a decent cg. I have put quite a lot of faith and expect NewTek to fulfill their promises.

ted
02-13-2003, 03:19 PM
I'm one of the biggest whiners about the CG.
But If many of the rumored improvements are in T3, I'd be pissed off if NewTek gave it away.

I want NewTek to turn in record proffits this year so they can keep the development moving forward.

Whenever I've lost a client because of price, I've had a new one take their place. Some clients want it all for free and feel justified demanding it no matter what I give them.
Working for profit is what helps make my business worth all the hard work and I'm not afraid to tell them so.

I'd be ahamed to even imply NewTek is gouging it's customers. With their track record, they have proven that's not their M.O..

We may not always feel like we got everything we felt we deserved, but you can't forget all the stuff we got for free.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as much as I HATE the current CG, it does work.
So if NewTek improves it, why shouldn't they get paid for it along with the dozens of other improvements?

JMHO

Paul Lara
02-13-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by ted
I'm one of the biggest whiners about the CG.
But If many of the rumored improvements are in T3, I'd be pissed off if NewTek gave it away.

...Some clients want it all for free and feel justified demanding it no matter what I give them.


Well stated, Ted. :)

Prosprctor
02-13-2003, 05:32 PM
Gouging????
Newtek dosen't gouge as far as I can see or have seen. As I have been getting thier stuff since the early Newtek days, I have always been satisfied with product AND price.

Yes CG does work, and so does my old car but Cal. won't let me drive it untill it quits laying down a smokescreen that a battleship could hide in,and this ver of CG is less crisp than the Amiga version, I run my output to a 32" TV right next to my other 32" TV of the same brand that plays nothing but the FOX network and side by side with those CG graphics the Toaster output leaves ALOT to be desired, with the Amiga much closer to the real thing.

We don't expect anything free from Newtek as we want them to make every bit of profit there is to be made....

BUT

If we pay for thier product and stay with thier product thru thick and thin (when they switched from the Amiga to the PC), we don't like getting a newer version that is less than the one that was 2 versions ago (toaster 4000 to the VT2).
New versions should contain new things,and versions that are out now should be top-notch (with bug fixes and such) before a new version comes out and we can deal with the NEW bugs then, and so our disagreement comes about by not fixing what there is out there now before going to a new version.

steveg
02-13-2003, 09:27 PM
Noone is trying to get anything FREE. I fairly paid real money expecting the complete Studio In A Box (T1) to have a decent cg. Instead I got Speed razor. I then paid additional real money for the upgrade to T2 expecting that surely in this second version of the new toaster I would get the CG. And have waited as NewTek stated that they are working on it. It still has not been delivered. And to add to that NewTek has announced that I may get to pay a third time for the cg that I should have gotten in the beginning. This is a long way from wanting it for FREE. I just want what I have already paid for the first two times in full faith expecting NewTek to deliver what was promised and not for FREE.

Paul Lara
02-13-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by steveg
I paid additional real money for the upgrade to T2 expecting that surely in this second version of the new toaster I would get the CG.

That Video Toaster [2] came with a CG is not debateable, Steve.

That it does not live up to your expectations is unfortunate. We have been listening to the suggestions you and others have made, and are working on a re-write of this application that we think will please the community.

steveg
02-14-2003, 10:52 AM
This isn't even worth going over again. Everyone knows the current cg is not adiquate. You have even acknowledged this in the past. Do what you are going to do anyway. But if you are going to charge us for an upgrade to the cg at least give us the satisfaction of proving that it works this time before we pay for it again.

Gordon
02-14-2003, 12:05 PM
Sorry Steve, but you would have to count me as one that thinks the current CG is pretty good and produces very good results. I don't know what your seeing on your TV but my broadcast monitors, (Panasonic and Ikegami), say the output is crisp. I like all that you can do with the fonts, borders, shadows, image maps and other textures, colors, gradients.

There are some that think that the CG is not good because it doesn't do the cheesy 3D fly-bys, spins and stuff you can get with cheap software. This is partially true but then TED project and a DDR will fill in the gaps for doings spins and fly-bys and still give very good results, (when High Quality is choosen).

The only thing that remains missing then is true 3D and we have FXmonkey that will allow us to do that!

JReble
02-14-2003, 01:12 PM
I for one have hardly ever used the Toaster CG. I'm just happy I've got Lightwave and a Toaster together on a PC rather than some out of production computer from the 80's. I have and probably always will find much better routes for getting graphics work done with other applications. Hell, it'll be hard for anyone to make a graphics app that makes me quit using photoshop for stills and overlays.

My only concerns are that the Toaster develop some additional file handling systems so I can plug and play all those graphics into the switcher and TED as smoothly as possible and on the fly. Then my only other worry is that it's going to move to the cursed win XP platform exclusively. Just when we get Newtek onboard with the mainstay computer platform, those grabby lunatics at MS proceed to wreck havoc on the OS environment with their control freak mentality. Hope newtek is lookin seriously at linux.

Still, before anybody at Newtek gets any ideas of moving to a new retail version, y'all better make sure to fix the audio issues for good on this one. There ain't another application out there that will make my audio record at the right level through TED!
:D

ScorpioProd
02-14-2003, 01:13 PM
OK, ignoring any feelings on ergonomic design or efficiency of use or functionality available, let's just look at output quality. I think we would all agree that output quality, no matter how easy or hard it is to create something, is where the rubber meets the road.

I am using the latest Sony Broadcast Production monitor, a PVM-14L5/1, which I consider top of the line, to look at my output.

A frame of text or even crawling text looks perfect in quality to me. That's never where I've had an issue with the CG.

But take one look at a scroll! OMG, HORRIBLE. THAT is the most critical handicap to me in my use of the CG. I do event work that often requires very long scrolls at the end, like 100 lines worth. The quality of the T[2]'s CG scroll at ANY speed is really bad, full of aliasing along any curves or diagonals.

And yes, this is even true at the "video frame rate" friendly speeds of 2,4,6 that Andrew told me to stick with. I do stick with only those speeds, and I get horrible quality edges.

It looks SOOO much worse than the scrolls from the Classic Toaster CG.

That said, I expect this, along with many other issues like justification to the page, to be fixed or implemented in the next version of the CG.

If the "new" CG happens to be part of a paid upgrade that is providing many other new things, I have no problem with that. And I don't see any point in wasting resources to "fix" the existing CG if it is being totally thrown out in the very near future.

SBowie
02-14-2003, 02:53 PM
As is frequently the case, I agree entirely with Eugene. Scrolls suck, but otherwise the output looks fine. In some respects it's kind of ToasterCG v .099, but maybe that's no great surprise given all the variables involved in a) a new product from b) a small company in c) a difficult economy.

Some will insist it's not a new product but, again, I don't ever remember a CG being promised as part of ToasterNT, and T[2] has been only out a little over a year now. I just can't sign onto complaints about an extremely overlong wait voiced elsewhere in this thread.

With the exception of clean scrolls, seems to me it fills reasonable expectations for a version 1 app. Sure, there are a few oddly missing layout functions in the gui, but otherwise it's not really so bad. My big complaints were speed and stability, but those are much better now.

I think part of the trouble is that it just isn't seem as 'sexy' as the rest of Toaster[2], so it seems kind of lame by comparison. But translating any of this into a lack of generosity (much less 'gouging' !) by NewTek seems grossly out of proportion.

Just my .02...

ted
02-14-2003, 03:36 PM
Even on static CG's I don't think the quality is top notch. The edges are noisey and the colors bleed far more than any CG program I've used, including the old Toaster CG.

However I still feel NewTek did include a CG in this build and they are now heading towards an improved version just like the Toaster.
I couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to move up to T3 and understanding that a paid upgrade is in order.

So like any company, you buy the improved version and move on. Try paying for an AVID upgrade, or even their service contract!

I'm not trying to diss anyone here.
I guess you feel the way you feel and that doesn't make you wrong. I just think most people understand that paying for improvements is part of our world, and NewTek has been more than fair with free upgrades.