PDA

View Full Version : To Everyone Concerned



Edbittner
01-31-2004, 04:54 AM
I think all these new video tuts and info prior to LW8's release is a stroke of genius on Newteks part. Anyone remember how long it took to get some tuts for LW7? Not only do they peak everyones interest, but give us enough of a heads-up so when L8 is released, we all can hit the groung running. I love the new features list and am really STOKED! Not to open a can of worms here, but addressing everyone who expressed angst over the departure of the old programming team, this looks to be the coolest LW upgrade,(I think it's actually beyond upgrade status), I've ever seen! New programmers let me be the first(?) to say, you are just what LW needed! Old programmers, I hope the door didn't hit you in the A** on the way out.
Patiently waiting,
Ed

js33
01-31-2004, 05:31 AM
Nah...we all got tired of waiting for 8 to be released and went to Maya, XSI and 3DMax. :D

Just kidding. I hope. :(

Even though I have as many others here have started learning Maya. :confused:

Cheers,
JS

jevinstudios
01-31-2004, 10:06 AM
Ed --

Agreed! NewTek has really been working hard to get as much info on v.8 out there as possible in advance, and I, for one, am truly excited about the new release. Excellent job, NewTek.

Unfortunatley, there will always be impatient people who jump ship whenever the water gets a little choppy or if the boat takes too long to dock, but I'm a true believer that good things come to those who wait, and NewTek did this one right.

Instead of a rushed upgrade to beat the competition, the development team is putting as much time and effort into this upgrade to make it as bug-free and feature-rich as possible, and is putting the benefit of the LightWave user above the bottom line.

Last year, I was very skeptical and critical about NewTek when it appeared that LightWave 8 was going to be a minor upgrade (not addressing important key issues) and I raised my voice in complaint. NewTek listened to ALL it's customers, and really took their requests and marketing advice to heart, then put together the perfect team to make their requests a reality. I think this release will be truly ground-breaking!

eacide
01-31-2004, 04:55 PM
I was not often on the forums when 7 was released so I cannot compare anything.

What I wanna say is that the atmosphere of the last months forced newtek to inject a placebo in the community for it to get calmer.

That is quite nice... But the more I see, the less I am patient... I am licking my screen everytime proton releases something :D

KillMe
01-31-2004, 06:11 PM
i too have have recently taken a stab at learning maya as i felt it might be good to be able to say i knew how to use it but the more i do the more i wish lw 8 would appear blowing maya out fo the water and everyone could start using it and i wouldn't need to learn maya =) wishful thinking i know sadly

i agree the new team seems to ahve done some damn fine work and while i wasn't around for the 6 -> 7 upgrade from what i can tell there is far mroe in this upgrade and some truely useful stuff too

i just cant want to see what the team comes up with once they have had a chance to get there teeth into the modeler and the rendering engine

jevinstudios
01-31-2004, 08:12 PM
My studio uses both Maya & LightWave for our work, and we get excellent results combining the two tools in almost every project. I have nothing against people learning Maya -- it's one helluva sweet program! I'd say go for it, as you have nothing to lose, but everything to gain.

I don't think of Maya as a LW replacement, however. The more I work with Maya, the more I appreciate LightWave's simplicity and exceptional modeling tools, and the more I cherish this puppy -- the two apps make a beautiful couple!

I am having a difficult time understanding the LW Community's rabid impatience with the latest upgrade, however -- what's the big deal? LightWave 7.5 is still one cool program, and the new upgrade wil be out soon -- why all the resentment for NewTek making sure this new upgrade is as perfect as possible, and for taking the extra time to get it right? Are we all so spoiled that we feel a need for new upgrades every six months, then freak if we don't get em on time?

I'd say let's cut NewTek some slak, and let em do their job. We'll all benefit in the end, and that's what's really important here.....

(This comment isn't directed to those on this thread; based on observations I've been seeing in the forums recently in general....)

Gui Lo
02-01-2004, 07:15 AM
I agree the new LW team have done a great job and all concerned in marketing and production deserve our appreciation.

The new features look great and the videos are spot on and really have the atmosphere of an 'over the shoulder', fellow artist showing us how to use a feature. If Proton hates rigging then I hate reading manuals and would much rather watch a vid.

Although I can't wait I am glad that it will only be released when all are happy with it.

They know the whole 3d community will be waiting to see. Surely knowing this is presure enough.

Let's let them get on with it.

Gui Lo

themaxx
02-02-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
I am having a difficult time understanding the LW Community's rabid impatience with the latest upgrade, however -- what's the big deal? LightWave 7.5 is still one cool program, and the new upgrade wil be out soon -- why all the resentment for NewTek making sure this new upgrade is as perfect as possible, and for taking the extra time to get it right?

because they're not communicating with the people who've shelled out the money for it already; because they missed their own release date and won't give us a revised estimate. we've gone from having a specific release date to no date at all, and no one from newtek seems to have anything to say on the matter despite repeated requests for information.

no one is saying, "release it now, broken or not". no one is asking newtek to change their timetable. we're simply asking what the timetable is; when can we expect it? i am growing increasingly annoyed with the slient treatment.

js33
02-02-2004, 05:26 PM
Well my guess the release date has slipped and no firm one on the horizon is because LW 8 is probably a crash fest and it's taking them a while to iron out all the bugs.

Cheers,
JS

themaxx
02-02-2004, 05:39 PM
that's fine. but why don't they say that then? "we've still got 18 showstopper bugs, so it's going to be at least 6 weeks."

at least then i could stop checking this board compulsively, hoping LW[8] has been released.

lede
02-02-2004, 05:45 PM
Yes the videos that Proton has been releasing each day has made my hunger grow for the upgrade. I don't do much rigging of charaters but with the new tools it sure make it look easy or is that Proton and his experience making it look easy....

It definatly is looking like the age old adage "good tools come to those who wait" :)

Besides I've had the DFX+ tools for a while now and am still learning to use them, what a deal NewTek!!!

-Lede

js33
02-02-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by themaxx
that's fine. but why don't they say that then? "we've still got 18 showstopper bugs, so it's going to be at least 6 weeks."

at least then i could stop checking this board compulsively, hoping LW[8] has been released.

Well if you've ever done any software development you would know that it is impossible to predict how long it will take to find and fix all the bugs. They already put their neck on the line with a release date so you can bet they won't make that mistake again. I believe the planned release date was a good faith estimate but the bugs prevented it from being releaseable.

Your guess is as good as mine what the current status is. Oh well I guess you will still have to come here compulsively everyday like the rest of us. Mhuaaa ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. hehehe

Cheers,
JS

themaxx
02-02-2004, 08:15 PM
i have done software development. in fact, software development is what i do every day. i understand the process, and i understand that it can be difficult to estimate timing, especially when it comes to bug squashing. all i'm asking for is a little communication; something a tad more specific than "soon". at the rist of being overly dramatic, what if someone said i was going to die soon? what would that mean? tonight? next thursday? this summer?

i don't mean to sound whiny or resentful. i'm not. i love lightwave and am happy that newtek tolerates me on this board and even has its own representatives lurking about. i truly appreciate the demo videos proton has been putting up.

okay. i didn't want to freak anyone out, but you've left me no choice. the truth is this: the lightwave 8 cd contains a secret block of code that i desperately need in order to unlock this silver box that a man in a trenchcoat slipped me on the subway just before a hail of bullets rained down on him from uzi-weilding ninjas. the box contains the key to stopping an evil overlord from unleashing an army of genetically engineered godzillas upon us who will gobble up all of the 3d software, G5s, and diet coke.

don't you see?!? i'll be forced to go outside and interact with people!! AAAAAA!!!

jevinstudios
02-02-2004, 08:20 PM
Pleeeeeezzzzzzz, Maxx, don't go outside and interact with people -- that idea scares me more than anything.....

Ha ha ha ha.....

archiea
02-03-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Edbittner
I think all these new video tuts and info prior to LW8's release is a stroke of genius on Newteks part. Anyone remember how long it took to get some tuts for LW7? Not only do they peak everyones interest, but give us enough of a heads-up so when L8 is released, we all can hit the groung running. I love the new features list and am really STOKED! Not to open a can of worms here, but addressing everyone who expressed angst over the departure of the old programming team, this looks to be the coolest LW upgrade,(I think it's actually beyond upgrade status), I've ever seen! New programmers let me be the first(?) to say, you are just what LW needed! Old programmers, I hope the door didn't hit you in the A** on the way out.
Patiently waiting,
Ed

While the wait is frustrating, I agree with the above.. i actually feel like I know LW 8... I think this should be incorporated into future LW releases.. except this time by design!!!!!

Fausto
02-03-2004, 12:35 AM
Well if you've ever done any software development you would know that it is impossible to predict how long it will take to find and fix all the bugs.

For what it's worth, It isn't a black science, it's an exact science. I think it's more likely that one or several members of the team have come up with some ideas along the way that just had to be integrated rather than the delay being caused by shoddy code. We're not talking about a platform that's immature, new, first time being used, it's established, defined, robust, and I'd hope well documented. No it's more likely to be a scenario akin to Maya fluid effects where a couple of developers found a particular way of doing something and thought it needed to be part of Maya.

I for one don't mind the wait.

.25

js33
02-03-2004, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Fausto


For what it's worth, It isn't a black science, it's an exact science.

Hmmm, I heard a programmer talking about programming once say "It's not an exact science". Hehehehe. I've always thought of programming as an exact science too but the black part comes in when your code doesn't do what you thought it should because of some small bug in a library or header file somewhere that has gone unnoticed for years and you are searching in the dark trying to find it.

Cheers,
JS

Edbittner
02-03-2004, 04:13 AM
Well, I spoke to someone at Safe Harbor, and he told me the LW-DFX+ offer ends the middle of FEB.
(For what it's worth).
Ed

Steve McRae
02-03-2004, 06:37 AM
its about time . . . :)

lunarcamel
02-03-2004, 08:13 AM
Nah...we all got tired of waiting for 8 to be released and went to Maya, XSI and 3DMax.


What is funny about this - is that its true :( I've been long disappointed with LW's layout and renderer and while I waited to see some videos of new 8 features I've been playing around with MAX and Maya. I applaude the videos of 8 and the way Newtek has listened to the community - but my eyes have opened up quite a bit in that time.

I think for the first time since the original Toaster days and LW 3 stand alone I will not be ordering an update. Not starting a war - I just don't think it has what I'm looking for ;)

And ugh I've been using MAX lol - but ahh VRAY what can I say ;)

robinson
02-03-2004, 08:29 AM
Yap lunarcamel, that’s exactly what I’m doing right now.
I’ve been playing around with XSI lately and I’m really impressed.

I already ordered the LW update last June, stupid me, but now I’m considering selling the “Lightwave 8 update” and maybe switching over to XSI.
Damn, there is a great XSI offer right now.

@Newtek
Can I just sell (transfer) my Lightwave 8 update to a 7.5 user ?
Now what’s the word for something like that ?
Downgrade ?:p

Bjoyce
02-03-2004, 08:33 AM
[i] Not to open a can of worms here, but addressing everyone who expressed angst over the departure of the old programming team, this looks to be the coolest LW upgrade,(I think it's actually beyond upgrade status), I've ever seen! New programmers let me be the first(?) to say, you are just what LW needed! Old programmers, I hope the door didn't hit you in the A** on the way out.
Patiently waiting,
Ed [/B]

Not to impinge on the ability of the new team (there are some very talented people there), but what "NEW" features are you so stoked about ?

What’s actually in LW8 ? A look at Newtek’s LW8 preview page shows :

Rigid Body Dynamics
Formally called FX-Break from D-Storm.

Improved Soft Body and Cloth Dynamics
Formally called FX-Motiondrive and FX-Distort from D-Storm

Improved Particle System Tools.
A new particle FX engine was included with both the previous two D-Storm plug-ins.

The ability to edit particles, cloth and points individually after dynamics are calculated.
Formally called FX-Edit by D-Storm.

Workflow enhancements to Layout.
Ok, most of this looks new, except the “Move TCB” function, which looks suspiciously like the old function that was in LW5.6. Most of it is animation specific though.

Rendering Enhancements
Being able to render non-sequential frames is hardly ground breaking.

New Selection modes in Modeler
All from DI’s Powertools.

New Layer Tools in Modeler
There is an existing free plug-in that does all this.

New Modeling Tools
Apart from two animation specific tools (one of which is also currently a free plug-in) all the tools listed are from DI’s (previously free) Powertools.

Modeling Tools not listed.
There are a couple modelling tools not listed on the LW8 overview page, the Edge Tools from D-Storm and Edge Chamfer from Daz, both of which are still free to download.

I don't doubt that the new team will produce great things in the future, but it looks suspiciously like people will be paying $500 for an upgrade that is mainly a polish applied to existing 3rd-party plug-ins.

UnCommonGrafx
02-03-2004, 09:04 AM
A polish AND Integration.

I await, however, what has not been announced.

I paid for 8,
Now I sit to await,
That which is late,
but said by others to be great,
Testing of my patience I hate
Though I know, mate,
I, too, tire of the wait
For a superb, bug free lw[8].

Cuz I felt like it.
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx



I don't doubt that the new team will produce great things in the future, but it looks suspiciously like people will be paying $500 for an upgrade that is mainly a polish applied to existing 3rd-party plug-ins.

lunarcamel
02-03-2004, 09:20 AM
I guess it just depends on what you use LW for - if its character work then this upgrade will make you happy but for many other people it's just a bunch of features that have been lacking for so long.

In my mind theres no one single package that can do everything -I love to model in LW but I always export into something else at the end of the day ;) I do feel that NT has addressed many user concerns and that's a great thing for the users as well as NT. Also, the DFX deal is a great idea - useless to me but a deal and a half to someone else!

You just can't please everyone ;)

jevinstudios
02-03-2004, 09:32 AM
"you just can't please everyone"

Very tru, altho it seems harder to please many LightWave users than anyone else these days. I must admit, that many times it has become a downer logging onto this board when there seem to be so many disgruntled LW users out there with "software envy" -- to those that are too impatient or angry with NewTek about a delayed upgrade release and feel compelled to swap software in retaliation: Go for it.

I, for one, went thu this about 2 yearz ago, and have found myself crawling back to LightWave (especially for modeling) at every opportunity -- becuz it's stable, reliable, and has the toolset I need to do the job quickly and professionaly. It's not really the tool itself in the big picture, but what you can do with it that makes a difference. I say that your work will probably not increase in quality too much by dumping LW and picking up XSI (overrated and overpriced), and Max is reaching the end of it's run with new development in it's replacement already underway.....

I employ Maya in my studio, and love it -- but I'd never give up my LightWave either.....

robinson
02-03-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
"you just can't please everyone"



XSI, overrated and overpriced ?
Why overpriced, could you explain, you know there is a trade-up right now
(I know trade ups are stupid if you just own one package or just one license and you produce with this license)
The only thing that concerns me about XSI are these maintenance stuff.

You are right about “your will probably not increase in quality too much by dumping LW” and picking package A or B, but you know it’s all about workflow.
Maybe there is a faster workflow with package A or B.
I will never dump LW but I will buy a A or B license pretty soon.

I’m still looking forward to LW8 when it’s finally released in Q4 2004 ?

Exper
02-03-2004, 10:17 AM
Sorry... I cannot resist:

"Do anything (right or wrong)
I can talk anyhow (and get along)
I don't care anyway (I never lose)
Anyway, anyhow, anywhere I choose"

Bye.

Chuck
02-03-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Bjoyce
Not to impinge on the ability of the new team (there are some very talented people there), but what "NEW" features are you so stoked about ?

What’s actually in LW8 ? A look at Newtek’s LW8 preview page shows :

Rigid Body Dynamics
Formally called FX-Break from D-Storm.

Improved Soft Body and Cloth Dynamics
Formally called FX-Motiondrive and FX-Distort from D-Storm

Improved Particle System Tools.
A new particle FX engine was included with both the previous two D-Storm plug-ins.

The ability to edit particles, cloth and points individually after dynamics are calculated.
Formally called FX-Edit by D-Storm.

Workflow enhancements to Layout.
Ok, most of this looks new, except the “Move TCB” function, which looks suspiciously like the old function that was in LW5.6. Most of it is animation specific though.

Rendering Enhancements
Being able to render non-sequential frames is hardly ground breaking.

New Selection modes in Modeler
All from DI’s Powertools.

New Layer Tools in Modeler
There is an existing free plug-in that does all this.

New Modeling Tools
Apart from two animation specific tools (one of which is also currently a free plug-in) all the tools listed are from DI’s (previously free) Powertools.

Modeling Tools not listed.
There are a couple modelling tools not listed on the LW8 overview page, the Edge Tools from D-Storm and Edge Chamfer from Daz, both of which are still free to download.

I don't doubt that the new team will produce great things in the future, but it looks suspiciously like people will be paying $500 for an upgrade that is mainly a polish applied to existing 3rd-party plug-ins.

Your thesis is no more accurate than saying that LightWave 8 is not something new because there have been previous LightWave versions. There's a little something to the notion, but it also misses the point and the essential truth of the matter. Yes, there are acquired technologies and the programmers who originated those are in many cases, now part of the development team. All of the acquired elements in character animation and dynamics are not only integrated but are advanced over the previously available versions - not just "polished", and were they still separate products users would be purchasing the LW8 versions as upgrades. The Ikeda tools have also received fixes and updates. In addition there is a lot on the list that was not acquired technology, including the extensive list of OpenGL enhancements. There is a lot of work under the hood as well, and a considerable emphasis on fixing a lot of long-standing issues in the code.

cresshead
02-03-2004, 11:21 AM
to those that only have "one post" on the newtek forum...your feelings on lw 8 are quite biased..or based on somthing you've not used as yet...could be that you are a vendor for another 3d app and your just "rubbishing" the competition..i note that you didn't bother to mention the ik booster or the 1.2 gig's of top content or the fact that you get a $995 comp app for free or 3 dvd's to learn lightwave with....

see there's a little "balance" for you.

if you doinb't like it...don't buy it!...all the better for those that do i say as we'll have better tools and make prettier pictures with lw8.

steve g

Exper
02-03-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
...could be that you are a vendor for another 3d app and your just "rubbishing" the competition...Yep... I've got the same feelings too!
We're two... at least ... better than nothing! ;)

Bye.

Bjoyce
02-03-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
to those that only have "one post" on the newtek forum...your feelings on lw 8 are quite biased..or based on somthing you've not used as yet...could be that you are a vendor for another 3d app and your just "rubbishing" the competition..i note that you didn't bother to mention the ik booster or the 1.2 gig's of top content or the fact that you get a $995 comp app for free or 3 dvd's to learn lightwave with....

see there's a little "balance" for you.

if you doinb't like it...don't buy it!...all the better for those that do i say as we'll have better tools and make prettier pictures with lw8.

steve g

Sorry to disappoint, but we have been running 5 licences at work since LW5.0 was released. Only last week I gave a talk at a University on 3D visualisation in the construction industry, and in fact LW featured quite prominently.

Only one post before this one ? Does it mean anything ? It could be that whilst lurking since this board moved from it’s last home, this is the first time I have felt strongly enough to post. So would that make my post any more relevant or less ? Personally I don’t see it makes a difference, but obviously some do.

The main thrust of the post was whilst all tweeks and workflow improvements are welcome to any program, why were people getting so (rabidly) excited when the vast majority of “new” functions were already available for LW if you needed them ?

I do wonder why you thought I might be a distributor for another product when I had not mentioned any other product ? It was not as if I had said all the listed features were available in Program “X”, I simply stated they were already available for LW if you needed them. If you didn’t need them before, why would you pay $500 for them now ?
Although I admit to being a little disgruntled, I am honestly curious about this.

And before anyone jumps in with the (painfully) obvious statement about I don’t need to upgrade, I think I have already made my position clear.

I have for some time worried about the direction Newtek have been taking LW, and nothing I have seen in these demo video has dissuaded me of that idea.
At some level it is admirable that Newtek wishes to compete in an area they acknowledge they have been traditionally week in, but why for heaven’s sake at the expense of the areas that they “have” traditionally been good in ?

Exper
02-03-2004, 12:29 PM
Bjoyce
I'm confident we'll see a lot more in the near future... LW[8.5]!

A Start is better than a Stop!

Do I must remeber again, many many time spoken, the infamous Lux affair?
No... too much tired of spekiang billions of times about the same old things!

Not a flame...
simply: stay tuned for the future releases, then buy if you'll be pleased!

Bye.

js33
02-03-2004, 12:34 PM
Hi Bjoyce,

Well alot of us preordered the LW upgrade with the DFX deal.
Lightwave had a good showing at Siggraph as well. It seemed like a good upgrade (not saying that it's not now). No one really knew at the time what was going to be in it for sure (Previously avaliable plugins now integrated). Also noone knew when it would be released but the estimated Q4 2003 was missed.

Also not all of the plugins included were free before. Some were some weren't. I don't know what the cost of the former plugins would be but it would probably be at least $500 and now you are getting the next version of all those plugins. Not the same existing plugins just stuck in 8.

But I agree overall. I hope this programming staff change leads to updates more often than before.

Also alot of people are clammering for Modeling and Rendering updates. Hopefully they will start work on those parts as soon as 8 is released.

Anyway my $.02 worth.

Cheers,
JS

cresshead
02-03-2004, 03:35 PM
not one to state the obvious but lightwave 8 isn't out yet so i'll hold fire till you get your mits on the released version, either a bought update or the demo...as you can see there's things being showcased on a daily basis from proton as pointed out they are not simply adding free or commercial plugins but intergrating and expanding their use and feature set plus there's internal stuff from newtek itself as well...and all is not revealed as yet.

and please remember this is a totally new team..working their socks off for you and fellow lightwave users after the mess of *** i think they have done a stunning job so far..yup i do concurr that rendering and lights should be attended to but believe that newtek do actually know what their doing for the future good og lightwave in adding character based tools that work very effectivly by what i've seen

re the other stuff...well we've seen countless attacks in the last year on the newtek forum on lightwave from other vendors in "single posts" or CIM gle posts...you looked to have that haullmark..of course if i'm in error then i apologise.

just give newtek a chance to prove themselves...for me lightwave 8 looks good...if it turnsout to be not what i hoped for...well theirs other apps to fill any gaps..maya is cheap nowdays...
whatever gets the job done.

..what exactly would you liketo see in lightwave 8?
and have you put in feature requests for them?

we are getting EXACTLY what we wanted...look back on the poles that were done earlier...the vote had it for the fearures most requested...can't be fairer than that can they?

yours

steve gilbert

themaxx
02-03-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by robinson
XSI, overrated and overpriced ?
Why overpriced, could you explain

last time i checked you had to pay a hefty sum to renew your license each year. i'm not talking about paying for updates-- i'm saying that if you don't send them more money the software you already have will cease to function. suit yourself, but that's not a pricing model i have any interest in whatsoever.

right now they're running specials where i can "save up to $10,000". any app where they can knock $10k off the sticker price is way too pricey for me.