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blabberlicious
01-30-2004, 07:35 AM
[Originally posted in the thread Basic Rig setup in LightWave Eight- Demo; Thread split by Moderators]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade...but But I'd rather see:

A complete lisiting of what existing stuff has been fixed - HUB, VIPER, UV distortion, lack of multithreading, etc. etc, etc....

....And a 7.5d release date for the Mac users, many of whom are in turmoil with your lack of information about a release.

Your features list is terribly, terribly vague....

I don't undestand why - if you really are close to release.

We like to be able to use the tools you sold us last time, before we get too excited about these - many of which seem to have been 'given up on' and left to 3rd party cpmpanies to charge us for.

Many Thanks (in anticipation)

nixx
01-30-2004, 07:46 AM
Steve, don't do this, don't start this yet again, this kind of talk always turns really ugly, really fast.

I am NOT saying that you are right, and I am NOT saying that you are wrong. I 'm just saying, drop it. This will lead nowhere, believe me (or if you don't believe me, believe the history of similar threads in the past).

nick

PeterJ
01-30-2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious

We like to be able to use the tools you sold us last time, before we get too excited about these - many of which seem to have been 'given up on' and left to 3rd party cpmpanies to charge us for.



As far as old bugs(and new) go those are things we are working on. None of us want to release a poor quality product. The dev team has been handed old issues to resolve and at the same time tasked with releasing a product that has updated and/or new features. It's a BIG job... not an excuse just a fact.
I can't get into a whole conversation about what has been fixed already and what remains. I can only say that the concerns you voice are part of the tasks we have taken on. Those issues are not being ignored.

WizCraker
01-30-2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by nixx
Steve, don't do this, don't start this yet again, this kind of talk always turns really ugly, really fast.

I am NOT saying that you are right, and I am NOT saying that you are wrong. I 'm just saying, drop it. This will lead nowhere, believe me (or if you don't believe me, believe the history of similar threads in the past).

nick

Might be a good time to lock the thread so it won't get ugly.

Chuck
01-30-2004, 08:23 AM
The Features list is very specific - the new tools are not only named but they are described, in many cases with images in addition to the text descriptions, and we are adding to the descriptions regularly, including videos demonstrating the new features in action.

Chuck
01-30-2004, 08:28 AM
I have split this thread from the originating thread. We've been loose about moderating, but have reached the limits of our tolerance on this kind of behavior. There has been enough hijacking of threads - stick to the topic, or we'll either split the thread or just delete the off-topic posts.

cresshead
01-30-2004, 08:46 AM
good idea.

i have a friend who's a mac user and he's wondering if lw8 will work okay on osx panther..he's currently a 3dsmax 6.0 user but is also looking to add a 3d app for his mac as he spends so much time designing on a mac and would liketo stay on one platform if possible.

currently he's taking a look at lightwave discovery edition but lightwave crashes whenhe makes an edit in graph editor on demo scenes.

steve g

blabberlicious
01-30-2004, 09:32 AM
Don't worry -I'm not about to go postal on anyone.

PeteJ: your reply was the first post I've seen that acknowledges the concern that MANY of us have been voicing about many day to day issues with HUB, etc....

I'm glad you are on it, and appreciate that bug fixing isnt something that you necessarily want to post on your Features Page :-)

But with so much new being thrown in the pot, you'll understand my concern aabout what kind of prority these issues are getting.

So thanks, I'll slope off to my mac ghetto and leave you guys in peace.

Sorry for bending the rules.

:-)

eggy
01-30-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
I have split this thread from the originating thread.

Chuck you named this thread
"What's fixed in 8 ?"
So you wanna tell us what kind of bugs are fixed, we donít know. :confused:

Chuck
01-30-2004, 10:52 AM
I named the thread based on what it seemed to me that the core question was in Mr. Williams' post. I undertook no other obligations for any further activity on my part based on this action. ;)

Seriously, I would be very surprised to see the product team publish information on the list of fixes any sooner than when the product is released, if they elect to formally publish that information. Doing so would be, based on what I can recall, something of a departure from past procedures. On the other hand, new team, new day. I'll ask, we'll see.

eggy
01-30-2004, 10:59 AM
No problem Chuck, :)

if nobody from Newtek will tell us whatís fixed in Lightwave 8, whatí this thread all about. :p
It is unnecessary to talk about things we canít answer, just speculations.
Only Newtek knows whatís fixed.

But I need to agree what's with LW 7.5d:confused:

Exper
01-30-2004, 11:31 AM
I put my trust in Peter!

LW[rebirth] (or [8] if you want) will be a really good starting point for the future releases!

The new dev team is working really good; I can quite easily imagine the new dev chucking the old code for new one where it was necessary (Scene Editor per example) and working hardly over the inherit mess and disastrous caos pruduced by the infamous Lux affair!

They surely need some more time/release before everything will go to the right place;
up to now: they're going to put in order.
The future will come by itself!

Well done guys!

Bye.

PeterJ
01-30-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by blabberlicious

So thanks, I'll slope off to my mac ghetto and leave you guys in peace.

Sorry for bending the rules.

:-)

LOL!!! mac ghetto!
You don't need to leave at all! It just gets crazy in threads sometimes. Especially when the thread is on one topic then gets unintentionally hijacked. Thats why Chuck split the thread.

:)

Librarian
01-30-2004, 08:58 PM
Ok, first fix:
Super Shift works properly with more than 1 active layer now.
And I`m sure they fixed the other old bugs of Power Tools.

Ade
01-31-2004, 02:04 AM
Simply put -

Does the HUB actually work on mac in LW8?

3dworks
01-31-2004, 03:26 AM
...here comes another specific question: has the layered photoshop output been fixed? can you now load the PSD file right in photoshop without messing around with layer blend modes?

best regards

markus groeteke
3dworks visual computing

Exper
01-31-2004, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by 3dworks
...here comes another specific question: has the layered photoshop output been fixed?Yep... for LW[8]!

They're working, as you can see!

Bye.

Cman
01-31-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Don't worry -I'm not about to go postal on anyone.

PeteJ: your reply was the first post I've seen that acknowledges the concern that MANY of us have been voicing about many day to day issues with HUB, etc....

I'm glad you are on it, and appreciate that bug fixing isnt something that you necessarily want to post on your Features Page :-)



I don't know. I've seen many patch downloads with readme's, and lists on download page, that go in pretty good detail covering bugs that get squashed.
It would be fine to give a list of squashed bugs, imho.

Phil
01-31-2004, 02:07 PM
Multithreading in 7.5 is what's has been annoying the hell out of me. It's broken when you have HV+fog with lens flares through the HV/fog combination. Each thread gets a segment of the image, but the flare intensities are calculated to be different for each segment and between frames. The result is a broken frame and, in addition, a completely stuffed rendered sequence. It's really nasty.

This bug was confirmed by Deuce and that last I knew it was on the table with a bunch of other multithreaded issues. I'd love to know that this was fixed for 8.0, but it's one of the reasons I'm also holding on to my cash. I'm tired of only being able to employ one CPU on the multiple CPU systems here because the render engine screws up in these situations. A fix for 7.5 would be a bonus, but a definite 'it should now all work as expected for 8.0' would be fine as well.

Other bugs I can workaround or live with, but this one is a killer.

blabberlicious
01-31-2004, 02:59 PM
Speaking of killers...

(well, that's overstating it a bit)

Being able to tweak .psd/tga texture files in photoshop and render tests 'on the fly' would make life MUCH simpler. (ie both apps open at the same time)

...instead of having to manually re load many images files to get LW to 'recognise' they've been updated.

Or worse, getting the dreaded 'this file is open in another application' alert when you try to overwite the edited TGA texture in PS (how old is that bug???)

Why can't the HUB/LW be aware of changes to these kind of assets?

Stuff like that would REALLY improve workflow for us texture monkeys.

Perhaps a big fat 'update all image maps' command that takes the drugery out of continually having to reload stuff.

I usually end up reloading the entire scene file to globally 'refresh'...but this is a very clumsy way of working.


As for Viper -

Why can't it display Subpatched Objects with UV maps?

It gives up totally.

So if you want to texure that carefully UV'ed head with a combination of image maps and procedurals....forget it.

Worley G2 previews everything, beacuse it's essentially using the first pass of the render as the preview.

Is this something that will be addressed?

Finally

Surface Baking NEEDS to be multithreaded - it's too good a feature to languish in single CPU hell!



I'd love to know how any of those things are been addressed.


All the best

Dodgy
01-31-2004, 05:46 PM
There used to be a 'reload all maps' button in 5.6, but it disappeared for 6. I definitely second the ability of the hub to update t-maps between modeler and layout, I get annoyed when I have to reload them in one after I've already reloaded them in the other :P

Tesselator
02-01-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Phil
Multithreading in 7.5 is what's has been annoying the hell out of me. It's broken when you have HV+fog with lens flares through the HV/fog combination. Each thread gets a segment of the image, but the flare intensities are calculated to be different for each segment and between frames. The result is a broken frame and, in addition, a completely stuffed rendered sequence. It's really nasty.

This bug was confirmed by Deuce and that last I knew it was on the table with a bunch of other multithreaded issues. I'd love to know that this was fixed for 8.0, but it's one of the reasons I'm also holding on to my cash. I'm tired of only being able to employ one CPU on the multiple CPU systems here because the render engine screws up in these situations. A fix for 7.5 would be a bonus, but a definite 'it should now all work as expected for 8.0' would be fine as well.

Other bugs I can workaround or live with, but this one is a killer.

Hmmm I just tuned into this thread so I don't know what the
split was all about. But I do have to say that about half of
the complaints here are either pilot error or show a lack of
understanding for LW in general. Some may hate to admit
that it's you and not the program I donno And I'm not here
to stifle good bug reporting or discussion either. Is LW bullet
proof? Not by a long shot! Is any other 3D package? Nope
not by a long shot. Can you set the settings so that things
appear "broken" in any and every software? Yes indeed you
can. It would seem to me that when some people can't get a
result they point to the software rather than trying to figure
out what they are doing wrong. AND I'm not pointing at any
one user in specific - this is human nature. Even I do it. The
only difference being that after I calm down (15min max) I'm
willing to admitt that it may be me and rethink my settings and
I never take my initial suspicions to the public forums. Here is
just a few examples of what I mean: (see below). these were
rendered each about 30 different ways with various options
on and off, with 1 thread, 4 threads and 8 threads. My render
display was up to 187 (pressed F9 187 times) before I posted
this. Where's the bug?

Volume HV Fog + LensFlare + 8 threads
Surface HV Fog + LensFlare + 8 threads
Sprite HV Fog + LensFlare + 8 threads

Tesselator
02-01-2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Speaking of killers...

(well, that's overstating it a bit)

Being able to tweak .psd/tga texture files in photoshop and render tests 'on the fly' would make life MUCH simpler. (ie both apps open at the same time)

...instead of having to manually re load many images files to get LW to 'recognise' they've been updated.

Tell LW that it's an Image seq and tack a 00 to the end of the
file name. Problem solved. Just press [right arrow], [left arrow],
[F9]. Wala!

Or worse, getting the dreaded 'this file is open in another application' alert when you try to overwite the edited TGA texture in PS (how old is that bug???)

Yuo know... this has never happened to me since I moved on
from NT4. I really believe it no longer exists or is OS setting
related. I just tried it again right now before I posted to make
sure. No problem! and I really hope they leave the way it works
now ALONE. I would be hateing life it LW reloaded images every
time I went and pressed F9 or F10. Careful what you ask for
there big guy. :)

Why can't the HUB/LW be aware of changes to these kind of assets?

I don't even know what that means. Could you explain it a
little better for the terminally dence such as myself?

Stuff like that would REALLY improve workflow for us texture monkeys.

Just the opposite in my opinion!

Perhaps a big fat 'update all image maps' command that takes the drugery out of continually having to reload stuff.

That might be cool. Still I don't see the atvantage over just
pressing [s], [return], [return],[l],[double click]. Unless there
are some really huge models which is sometimes (but rarely)
indeed the case.

I usually end up reloading the entire scene file to globally 'refresh'...but this is a very clumsy way of working.


As for Viper -

Why can't it display Subpatched Objects with UV maps?

It gives up totally.

So if you want to texure that carefully UV'ed head with a combination of image maps and procedurals....forget it.

Yep. Viper is a weird bird to say the least. Originally it
was a separate program all together and then it kind of
recieved it's own button and some hooks. I think it should
be trashed all together and the OpenGL be built up. L8
is a good step in this direstion with the mullti-layers and
etc. Please don't ask then to upgrade viper! Let's vote
that OpenGL recieve all it's duties.
Tess - Founder of the Anti-Viper Association! (The AVA) :D

Worley G2 previews everything, beacuse it's essentially using the first pass of the render as the preview.

Is this something that will be addressed?

Yes, you know it is. :p Damit Jim, I'm a Lightwaver not a polititian! :D

Finally

Surface Baking NEEDS to be multithreaded - it's too good a feature to languish in single CPU hell!

Huh? since when does baking not work with multithreading?
Okay, I'm off to check it out. I can't remember it ever NOT
working tho. I don't bake often tho... Be back later with
more info on this.

I'd love to know how any of those things are been addressed.

Ya, so would I but I think it's better to NOT try and babysit the
progress of a Company I have no holdings in and no control
over. I'll take it as it comes. They've always done me right
so far! Heck I would be happy if L8 had nothing new other
than the NEARLY TWO GIGABYTES of new content that's been
mentioned.

Well... I would be! Of course the happiness would be
compounded by anything faster better or neater. :)

All the best

Phil
02-01-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Tesselator
Where's the bug?


I submitted an example scene from one of the ones here that showed the problem to Deuce, complete with QT movies showing no issue at 1 thread, but increasing breakup at 2,4,8 threads. All rendered to stills (TGA) and completely reproducible.

That Deuce was able to confirm the problem suggests that pilot error and/or lack of understanding do not apply in this case. That's the problem :b I never claimed that LW was perfect, but this is one issue that I cannot work around. If you really don't believe me, I can dig up the content I sent to Deuce and you can see for yourself.

GregMalick
02-01-2004, 10:21 AM
Tell LW that it's an Image seq and tack a 00 to the end of the
file name. Problem solved. Just press [right arrow], [left arrow],
[F9]. Wala!


Tesselator - that's a great tip!

blabberlicious
02-01-2004, 04:59 PM
Tesselator - that image update tip is great - much appreciated.

(sfx: hand slapping forehead)

In my opinion, the latest Open GL enhancements aren't going to make what Viper does (or rather could do) redundant.

A large chunk of what G2 does sitting right inside LW - it just needs coaxing out into a workable interface. I was curious to know if they've gone there.

By all means try Baking with multithreading - if you find a workaround for that, too I'd be grateful.

Cheerio

Tesselator
02-01-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Phil
I submitted an example scene from one of the ones here that showed the problem to Deuce, complete with QT movies showing no issue at 1 thread, but increasing breakup at 2,4,8 threads. All rendered to stills (TGA) and completely reproducible.

That Deuce was able to confirm the problem suggests that pilot error and/or lack of understanding do not apply in this case. That's the problem :b I never claimed that LW was perfect, but this is one issue that I cannot work around. If you really don't believe me, I can dig up the content I sent to Deuce and you can see for yourself.

Nah bro, it's not a matter of "believing" you. I would actually like
to see the error reproduced but not if it's going to be troublesome.
Just that I spen alot of time in all the volumetric aspects of LW
being into the FX end of it as I am and never saw this - which
don't mean jack :D

If it /is/ a bug there wouldn't be anything I could do about it
except report it and it sounds like that's already been taken
care of. Good Job!

Yeah, an unfortunate fact of life: all Software has bugs. :(


--
hehe.. ok going to look at baking from now, bbl.

Ade
02-01-2004, 06:46 PM
I feel Newtek should lead the way with baking and create the best most easiest way of baking from all apps.

This and include G2 type features in LW8.
Gods sakes Newtek should just offer worly for their work.. Noneone will complain, theyre a great company and should be kept close to LW otherwise theyll start porting their stuff to 3ds and well loose that advantage. Maybe G2 can be worked on more aswell and display more things in realtime?

cgolchert
02-02-2004, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Being able to tweak .psd/tga texture files in photoshop and render tests 'on the fly' would make life MUCH simpler. (ie both apps open at the same time)

...instead of having to manually re load many images files to get LW to 'recognise' they've been updated.

Most other applications can't do that. Take flash for example. You need to go to evey image inthe library and click on the update button.

Most of the programs that do update like that focus only on that one file (some text editors).

blabberlicious
02-02-2004, 02:54 AM
The Hub updates objects in Layout and Modeller, and attempts to keep them in sync, so it wouldn't be unresonable to expect LW assume that if you overwrite a image map file with the same name, it needs to be reflected in LW. You should at least have the choice. That's all.

Anyway, I'm in hog heven with the image sequence workaround - I can create and edit multilayerd a single .psd file - tweak, render, tweak with both apps open - to my hearts content!

Oooo Mamma!

BTW (and a tad off topic)
LW manages to render correctly all the Layer blending and overlay modes in .PSD files - which is more than can be said for Maxon's Bodypaint at the moment.

So LW texture artists reading this:

If you are used to creating a 'base' bumpmap using the various PS layer moders , enabling you to 'underpaint' colour and/or blend multipe maps together (great for skin wrinkles, etc.) then prepare to be disappointed - at lest for now. Because UNLIKE LIGHTWAVE, Bodypaint can't handle (render or display) any but the most basic v5.5 layer modes in .psd files

It actually flattens out/trashes the layer data for .psd file that have been buit up this way - so beware!

Being able to keep your image maps 'live' until your final render is GREAT - particularly with the sort of demands that clients can throw at you mid project.

So there! Somethng about LW that I think's great!

..now if they can get the .psd export plugin to toss out .psds that macth the render...

...ooops there I go again!

stone
02-02-2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Tesselator
Yuo know... this has never happened to me since I moved on
from NT4. I really believe it no longer exists or is OS setting
related. I just tried it again right now before I posted to make
sure. No problem! and I really hope they leave the way it works
now ALONE. I would be hateing life it LW reloaded images every
time I went and pressed F9 or F10. Careful what you ask for
there big guy.

it does happen every now and then though its rare. for instance photoshop refusing to save the texture file because its in use by lightwave. only way to get the updated texture saved is to shut down lightwave to release the file. and im talking win xp here. chances are its not related to the operating system but rather a bug.


Originally posted by Tesselator
I don't even know what that means. Could you explain it a
little better for the terminally dence such as myself?


what is needed is to make lightwave aware of file changes and update the textures where changes are detected. when i've layed out a texture map and open photoshop to draw the texture its a pain when switching back to lightwave, having to open a window and hit 'replace' before the changes are updated on the model.

your workaround for layout is just that, a workaround where lightwave is lacking autoupdate, and it doesnt work in modeler for obvious reasons.

/stone

Tesselator
02-02-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Tesselator - that image update tip is great - much appreciated.

NP

By all means try Baking with multithreading - if you find a workaround for that, too I'd be grateful.

Cheerio

Oh right this: (see pic)

Yeah, I was thinking you were saying like there was a bug
crashing you out or malformming your surfaces/renders or
something.

OK, hehehe Nevermind. :D

cgolchert
02-02-2004, 09:08 AM
The Hub updates objects in Layout and Modeller, and attempts to keep them in sync, so it wouldn't be unresonable to expect LW assume that if you overwrite a image map file with the same name, it needs to be reflected in LW. You should at least have the choice. That's all.

The hub doesn't update on it's own, the user does.

AND...

The hub is part of Lightwave I'm sure if you figure out how to paint your images in Layout or Modeler it would be perfectly resonable to expect them to update.

dwburman
02-02-2004, 10:35 AM
You could use two render nodes (single threaded) in a screamernet set up to take advantage of the dual processors. Obviously it isn't a fix, but it may speed things up for you.

Dana


Originally posted by Phil
I submitted an example scene from one of the ones here that showed the problem to Deuce, complete with QT movies showing no issue at 1 thread, but increasing breakup at 2,4,8 threads. All rendered to stills (TGA) and completely reproducible.

That Deuce was able to confirm the problem suggests that pilot error and/or lack of understanding do not apply in this case. That's the problem :b I never claimed that LW was perfect, but this is one issue that I cannot work around. If you really don't believe me, I can dig up the content I sent to Deuce and you can see for yourself.

Phil
02-02-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by dwburman
You could use two render nodes (single threaded) in a screamernet set up to take advantage of the dual processors. Obviously it isn't a fix, but it may speed things up for you.

Dana

Well it would, but for the memory overload :) These are *heavy* scenes with lots of geometry and so on (unavoidable due to the way the scenes need to be used) and I'm not under the impression that LWSN can pool common data on the same machine. As such, we lose any advantage by the swapping to disk that results :D The best I could do was to take some defunct laptops and strap them up to render screamernet across them. It works, but if we could have a distributed F9 render, that would help as well :D