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Crocodilian
01-28-2004, 03:39 PM
on another thread, now closed, some folks were wondering about a node based surface editor in LW; apparently not in LW 8.

I highly recommend Darkling Simulations Darktree Textures. They have a plugin for LW which allows compiled Darktrees to run in LW-- does a very good job and highly recommended!

PeterJ
01-28-2004, 04:40 PM
Dark trees 2 is looks real nice!
I've played around with the demo a bit and gotten used to the node based idea.
I like it. I have talked to some people that dont. The node thing seems to bother them. I'm still using Dirty Up from Bosch.
Not node based but I love the results.

Freak
01-28-2004, 05:36 PM
I, like Howard, feel like the Surface Editor, needed an overhaul too..... Just a nice little tidy up would of made me a little happy.

We can add shaders in a Nodal style with Amiele, now..
However I have not really tried it.

Darktree is great, but does not really help LW's Surface Editor.

It's fairly sad when Multiple Selection / Copy / Paste
is listed as the only new feature, and it's not even a new feature!

Makes me really worried we are trying to make LW8 bigger than it is! Value Added Hype!

Proton did do a poll about Multiple Surface Previews,
Brad and Gregory said it would be brought back one day....
Me, Larry and countless others have asked since 6.0..

(I can't even make my own replacement surface editor, due to the SDK)

It didn't need much, but a few simple enhancements would go a long way.

I also think Presets could be managed WAY better......
Grouping, Naming, Sorting etc.....
Ohwell LW 9 might be cool! ;(

Dodgy
01-28-2004, 05:50 PM
There's another node based shader out there:

http://kaniserver.homeip.net/%7Ekonoha/psycho/

Sabre, which is $25 or there abouts I think (I don't read Janese :P) Tried the Beta and it seemed quite cool.

bloontz
01-28-2004, 06:26 PM
http://kaniserver.homeip.net/%7Ekonoha/psycho/data/sabre_manual/indexE.html

There is the English (very roughly tranlated) manual. Sabre is 6900 Yen, about $65. I tried the beta too, I wonder how the finished product is?

Panikos
01-28-2004, 06:35 PM
Author is rewriting Sabre from scratch. Cant say more :rolleyes:

bloontz
01-28-2004, 06:52 PM
I'm glad to hear he is still developing Sabre, it seems very promising indeed.

Beamtracer
01-29-2004, 12:40 AM
For Lightwave's surface editor to be converted to nodal may be nice, but it's not the only way to do it.

Surfaces are like compositing. It's also a bit like boolean expressions. You need to isolate some parts of the stack to render first or as a separate thing to the rest.

That's why it's a bit like brackets or parenthesis in a boolean expression. Maybe folders could do it.

DigiLusionist
01-29-2004, 01:17 AM
I like the layers method we currently have in LW.

Presently, I am trying to wrap my head around nodal shading in Maya. So far, it just seems awfully confusing.

How the rest of you guys who like nodal displays can understand what's going on with all of the inputs and outputs amazes me. I am going to keep working at it...

j3st3r
01-29-2004, 01:48 AM
With a nodal system, you could reuse nodes as you like. Currently if you use the same gradient or procedural texture on different surfaces, or on different channels of the same surface, you have to copy paste that layer. With a nodal system you could make your gradient, and connect it to the nodes as you like.

Dodgy
01-29-2004, 03:18 AM
I think maybe surface editor+ sabre shader is a good way to go, you get the best of both worlds...

Capt Lightwave
01-29-2004, 04:29 AM
This has been on the "Feature Request list" for some time now...here's something from the old forum:
http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/31241.html?

Steve McRae
01-29-2004, 04:30 AM
once you do get your head around them, nodes are extremely powerfull and you can do almost anything with them - I would LOVE for LW to have a nodal based texture system . . .

:)

Simon
01-29-2004, 05:35 AM
I had a play around with Sabre when it was in beta, seemed very good once you'd got the hang of it, that and getting DFX+ have tuned me into the nodal way of thinking. Having said that I'm not bothered if we keep the current layers of surface editor, but please please please can we have layer groups so you can affect what you want with alpha and displacement layers!! I'm sure that must be fairly easy to implement?

mattbolton
01-29-2004, 06:53 AM
Having used DarkTree for nearly 4 years, I can say that a node based approach would be very nice indeed. Right now, if I want to create anything other than the simplest procedural texture, I use DT to do it and then use the DT Symbiont shader to bring it into LW.

anieves
01-29-2004, 07:28 AM
You know, I am sick of debating these issues at work:
1- integration
2- node based surface editor
3- history in modeler

We do alot of work with LW but some ppl. at work have the ignorant impression that because LW is lacking these 3 things is not up to par with Maya or XSI or Max. I say ignorant because these same ppl. don't want to put the slightest effort in understanding how LW works. They have made up their minds, they don't like LW, period. My boss coming from Max feels more comfortable in Maya and now they are making us learn Maya, (which is fine with me since it will make me more competitive in the marketplace) my point is that I hope Newtek have plans for integrating these things in future versions of LW if they want to remain competitive in the marketplace.

I hope they do, I do love LW and Newtek's point upgrade practices and I would hate to loose them forever.

Now, I have submitted these feature requests via email and if you want to see change you need to do so as well. 10 different threads about node base SE doesn't really do any good to anybody, right?

Steve McRae
01-29-2004, 07:45 AM
emailing Newtek about feature requests is a great idea and something that we should all do . . .

however, there is nothing wrong with discussing the issues in the forums as they help flesh out ideas and convince others who may not realize the need for these features . . .

most LW'rs do not understand how valuable this things are untill they take the time to learn another app that has them and then its like "woah - how did I live without them"

I really like LW as well and hope that it gets better in the future :)

paul k.
01-29-2004, 02:49 PM
you know what is frustrating to me.... is that LW used to be the package that you didn't have to buy plug-ins for to get the job done. Sure it lacked a lot but it was never totally necessary to rely on plug-ins for half of your work flow. Sasquach,G2,Darktree,Napalm,etc. are all not extensions of our tool set they are what we need to stay even semi competitive, and I am tired of New Tek trying to do price comparisons with other products and failing to mention any real support in these and many other areas.

Listening to this thread is an exercise in tools we shouldn't need.

Go Howard M.

takkun
01-29-2004, 03:12 PM
I'm frustratingly frustrated by your frustration.

HowardM
01-29-2004, 04:15 PM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17256

stib
01-29-2004, 04:24 PM
When I was looking around at what 3d package our company should buy I tried Pixels 3D -you used to be able to get a fully working version free at www.pixels3d.com, though I'm not sure if that's still the case.

This is a totally nurbs based package, and was not a good place to start modelling. But it does have a fantastic shader setup. You can use layers gradients, all sorts of mathematical functions, and a whole range of stuff that LW doesn't have. All for four hundred bucks.

When I moved to LW the biggest dissapointment was how lame the surfacing was.

HowardM
01-29-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by stib
When I moved to LW the biggest dissapointment was how lame the surfacing was.

Its not lame, its just not polished.
Nodes would be best, but for now adding to whats there would be easier for NT.
Naming conventions, more layer control (such as the ability to tell a layer to affect certain different layers, not just whats below), a node like layering (parent layer, children) added to the way SE works now would make me happy.
Of course Viper being more like G2 would be nice.

KenM
01-29-2004, 07:01 PM
Along with the layers and nodes, I'd like to be able to type math functions in to calculate surface properties.

For example, if I develop a bit of interesting code with a rib editor, to then be able to adapt that algorithm to Lightwave. Faster than compiling shaders, which I am slowly learning how to do.

jamesl
01-29-2004, 07:24 PM
Give me the ability to choose my renderer (like most other packages do), and I'll be happy. Maya and Max have side-stepped the rendering issue by incorporating Mental Ray. Lightwave's native renderer can go toe-to-toe with Mental Ray (IMHO), but you have to navigate the cryptic layer setup to get there, so most people don't bother. Either allow people to use 3rd party shaders and renderers, or make this shading engine so flexible that they flock to you instead. Right now, you have an inflexible, closed system... and why would anyone choose that over Renderman or Mental ray?

j

p.s. External node-based systems like Darktree are awesome. If you work on multiple platforms (like I do), to be able to feed shaders you've developed into several programs is unbeatable. I couldn't care less if Newtek made the shader interface text-based.

Freak
01-30-2004, 08:44 PM
Naming conventions, more layer control (such as the ability to tell a layer to affect certain different layers, not just whats below), a node like layering (parent layer, children) added to the way SE works now would make me happy.
Of course Viper being more like G2 would be nice.

Seriously, sometimes Howard it's like you are reading my mind...
(But then most people do anyway....... :)

And yes why is it that Viper has been forgotten about?

With G2, being such a hit, everyone has wanted Viper to be more complete, and like other core areas of LW, they seem to be getting ignored.

It's nice that we have dynamics, and character tools.....
But really it's already too late for them........

Everybody who needed great character tools for Production,
already found them in other areas, when LW did not cut it....
LW8 seems to be getting all the things it needed about 2 years too late.....

Impact's been there for years, FX Break too.....
TSM, ACS4, Motion Builder, Messiah, Maya.

Personally dynamics are usually fun for about 3 minutes,
before you realise, that it's usually easier and more accurate to do stuff manually anyway. (but some people will love it)

I'm starting to fear, perhaps the price drop, has put LW into the "fisher price" toy department category.

Leigh
01-31-2004, 12:01 AM
I would also love to see a node based shading system in LightWave. I've been gravitating towards XSI lately, and am now even using it at home (and not just at work), mostly because I just love the Render Tree in XSI (and the UV tools, but that's a entirely different box of kittens).

Nodes make life simpler. Quicker. Better.

philip
02-02-2004, 05:08 AM
Leigh: you forgot "more flexible" :P

being able to connect anything with everything *plus* using boolean operations in between really rocks.
Hypershade sure is confusing at first, but once you get some grabs of it, you don't want to miss it.

I for one would love to see that in LW as well.

Alan Daniels
02-02-2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by PeterJ
I'm still using Dirty Up from Bosch. Not node based but I love the results.

Could you post a link to this product? I'm curious about it, but a Google search didn't turn up anything.

Kvaalen
02-02-2004, 08:30 AM
I'd also like to see a node based surface editor in LightWave. I played a bit with the DarkTree demo some time ago and I really prefer it.

If we do get one, I hope it is a very good one. The node based expression editor looks like it is as basic as it could be (I haven't tried it so I can't say for sure). I guess that is fine for expressions, but for a surface editor I don't want it to be as simple as possible but a real great one.
I'm just afraid it wouldn't be a very good one.

Just placing my vote. :)

mattbolton
02-02-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Alan Daniels
Could you post a link to this product? I'm curious about it, but a Google search didn't turn up anything.

Actually the company that used to make it is Dosch. :) From looking at their website though, it must be a discontinued product, since there is no mention of it at all anymore.
Do a search on google for "dirtyup dosch" and you can find one place that seems to sell it, but their site ends up being a shopping cart demo.

PeterJ
02-02-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Alan Daniels
Could you post a link to this product? I'm curious about it, but a Google search didn't turn up anything.

Here is the link:

www.doschdesign.com

I dont think they sell it any more.
Real shame works great.

DirtyUP
Dosch 3D

Alan Daniels
02-02-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by PeterJ
Here is the link: www.doschdesign.com I dont think they sell it any more. Real shame works great.

Couldn't even find any old screenshots of DirtyUp, but there's other interesting stuff on the site there. Thanks for the help.

takkun
02-02-2004, 02:29 PM
dvgarage.com also makes a really good "dirty up" surface kit.

http://www.padd.com/market/product/product.php?prod=stk

shadersrjj
02-03-2004, 09:49 AM
You might want to try IFW2 Textures at www.shaders.co.uk
We have a lot of noise, dirt and Scratch procedural textures
available as shaders and LWtextures.

We also have a new set of components for Darktree2.5

RJJ