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View Full Version : TED timeline to DV via Firewire. How?



INOV8Pro
01-25-2004, 09:58 PM
Hey All:

Is it possible to play from the TED timeline and record to a DV deck via Firewire? If it is how do you do it?

Thanks

Paul

bbeanan
01-25-2004, 10:00 PM
From What I have heard Nope not possible yet... but I may be wrong

bradl
01-25-2004, 11:08 PM
No real time DV out. The is a utility installed with VT3 to do this. Check in the Program Folder. Eugene (ScorpioProd) has mentioned a utility he prefers that is available free. I could not find that thread. It may have been on the Yahoo forum.

ScorpioProd
01-25-2004, 11:33 PM
I use DVIO which used to be available from www.toastersupport.com. Not sure if it's still there.

RayLarson
01-26-2004, 06:42 AM
I kept my Premier 6.0 on my machine and render my T3 project to an .avi and download to DV thru Firewire for the time being....works great.....and seems to be much better than other utilities.

Tom Wood
01-26-2004, 06:57 AM
DVApp comes with VT, and works sorta kinda okay. I get error messages about the deck, but it works. Can't reliably monitor timecode though, so it's push record and go, no editing. I found that I -must- deselect the deck in the VT Switcher, then close VT to release the deck to the system so DVApp can contact it. I'm doing LightWave/Mirage animations, and the image quality is far superior via firewire than Y/C to a DSR11 deck.

TW

INOV8Pro
01-26-2004, 10:07 AM
Not sure what DVApp is or where to find it. I have Vegas Video and Premiere Pro but I would prefer not to have to render the project and than roll to tape. I would like to cut out as many steps as possible to save time.

Paul

ScorpioProd
01-26-2004, 10:34 AM
Unfortunately, none of the DV utilities I've found support more than hit the button and it goes to tape, no fancy TC or print-to-tape at a specific spot or anything like that.

Hopefully VT[4] will support this.

Frankly, I'd be embarrased to bundle a developer sample like DVapp with a high end NLE.

Tom Wood
01-26-2004, 11:28 AM
Heh Eugene, you really don't like DVApp do you? :p

INOV8 - It should be there, but you have better tools already. Even with DVApp, you have to render some sort of file out of VT3 first.

TW

Scott Bates
01-26-2004, 11:30 AM
DVApp should be in your VT root directory Paul, it's included with the VT software. I haven't used it so defer the comments already given.

Omicron
01-29-2004, 07:23 PM
Yes u can however you need a few things.

1) A OHCI-compliant DV (firewire card) installed. (no IRQ share)
2) A DV (type 1 & 2) CODEC [highly recommend both]
3) The Microsoft DV extensions (for your op sys under cameras)
4) A DV deck of some kind (camera, deck, etc)
5) VT configured to "see it" from the DDR

Once all this is configured and talking, the program out will go right out to DV destination on DV out. Make sure the destination deck or camera is also set to "recieve" or "passive" or "none" on the deck or camera attached and that toaster sees it from boot.

bradl
01-29-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Omicron
Yes u can however you need a few things... the program out will go right out to DV destination on DV outI hardly use DV but the word from Newtek and users is no DV out, are you sure you are getting DV out straight from VT?

ScorpioProd
01-29-2004, 10:31 PM
VT[3] does not currently support DV out via firewire. Hopefully in the near future.

videoconcepts
01-30-2004, 08:44 PM
I dont know if this makes sence .
if the toasters S out is uncompresed then why cant you use a dv converter or go directly to a dv deck?
doesnt it look the same?

just thinkin

Jim Capillo
01-31-2004, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by videoconcepts
I dont know if this makes sence .
if the toasters S out is uncompresed then why cant you use a dv converter or go directly to a dv deck?
doesnt it look the same?



Although I haven't done a direct comparison, I am controlling my JVC BR-DV3000U via firewire and using Y/C in/out. The picture is superb.

ScorpioProd
01-31-2004, 10:17 AM
It's certainly true that you can use the Y/C out (or the component out) and get quality comparable to using the firewire, but that's not really the point.

All major NLEs support firewire out, VT[3] doesn't. There are certainly advantages to doing everything in one convienient wire. And there are analog losses involved anytime you're not sending a signal digitally.

Rich Deustachio
01-31-2004, 10:17 AM
I am doing the same as Jim except to a DSR-11 deck and getting the same excellent results.

Tom Wood
01-31-2004, 10:24 AM
Is there some inherent difference between camera-image video and computer generated imagery? I'm working entirely in 3D animation (LightWave/Mirage) and the quality improvement of DV via firewire over Y/C is very pronounced. Also going to a DSR11 deck.

TW

Paul Lara
01-31-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Tom Wood
Is there some inherent difference between camera-image video and computer generated imagery?

Absolutely!

You can create color ranges, and sharp edges that will never be recorded that way in camera.

SBowie
01-31-2004, 10:33 AM
That said, IMHO DV compression should be avoided wherever possible for CG stuff due to its atrocious aliasing issues and nasty propensity for color banding. (If you're going to use deep gradients, good idea to throw in some noise...)

02-16-2004, 10:40 AM
There is clearly always going to be a difference of opinion on the subjective appraisal of the quality of DV vs uncompressed, but as far as I can see from the various threads this has come up on over the past year, SBowie is pretty lonely in the 'DV is unsatisfactory' corner.
Those of us who for whatever reason (finance and convenience perhaps) are using DV (and particulaly like me with a DSR11) seem to consistantly discover that a firewire DV input gives a better quality playback image than poking it in via Y/C to SVid.
And no one from Newtek has come back with a decent excuse why we still can't do it without exporting an entire project, closing VT and running some naf little app to export.

So come on NewTek, what is so difficult about it that VT3 sp2 still can't do it.
The answer that we 'shouldn't want to do it because nanny thinks it's not good enough' is just not acceptable, you're making us loose quality on our LW animations by using Svideo instead of Firewire DV, get it? You are deliberately causing the degredation of the output of your own product.

And yes, preventing anyone new to the problem from looking it (DV) up in these forums by setting the minimum wordlength for the search engisn at '3' is pretty sad too. Anyone would think that there's something to hide. If there is a basic core error in the software that prevents this from being implemented you should have the decency to let us know, we've been waiting since VT2s release for this to happen, that's a very long time to ignore a fairly fundemental faliure.

RayLarson
02-16-2004, 12:05 PM
Not having DV export from Timeline is a serious ommission in this day and age regardless of your feeling concerning uncompressed vs DV.

I have been exporting my projects thru Firewire from Adobe Premiere 6.0 after rendering the RTV timeline as an .avi file with Main Concept. While is creates another step it is far superior (IMHO) to what I get going out to y/c.

It is time to implement this feature before the train leaves the station.

SCS
02-16-2004, 03:05 PM
If I understand Newtek correctly, the only format that TED works in is Uncompressed and everything that's played back is converted so there would have to be some kind of realtime RTV 2 DV conversion in order to export.

On the other hand you CAN get SDI out in realtime ;)

ScorpioProd
02-17-2004, 12:24 AM
I agree completely that at the very least a print-to-tape feature inside of VT[3] for DV files via firewire that you render from VT[3] is a must.

As for real-time out, VT[3] is first and foremost an uncompressed switching and editing system, and while computers have evolved to be fast enough to support switching in real-time, which VT[3] does quite well, and playback through a HARDWARE CARD of analog video out (or SDI), computers just can't do that AND real-time DV codec compression for firewire out YET. NO ONE can do this. Any system you see doing this is either using hardware or pre-rendering pieces of projects.

If VT[3] could do this with current computer systems, it would severely limit what it could do in the magical "real-time" in terms of effects and switching. Of course, I'm not saying that this wouldn't still be useful to many of us, I personally think it would be.

The other option is to do what Premiere has always done. Simply have a "DV mode" instead of the pure uncompressed mode that VT[3] currently works in. Then it could background render to DV anything that couldn't be encoded real-time and when you tell it to play a project, it simply uses that to output it all via real-time out the firewire port. Of course, this wouldn't help live switching to firewire out, though.

And VT[3] is not just an NLE, but also a live switching system, for better or worse, depending on your point of view...

02-17-2004, 04:51 AM
That sounds a bit sad, but considering the ease with which I can do it on a 5 year old (and otherwise unreliable) DPS Reality board, a bit odd. - I suppose the reality must have a hardware convert.

So what's the solution ?

Untill Newtek take pitty on us, how do we get decent quality onto our DSR11s.
Is there some bit of hardware/sowftware we can somehow interpose to do it ?
SDI is not on option, my clients can play the DVC tapes I send them, but they, like me, are not going to buy DigiBeta machines !

Any suggestions ?

chribba
02-17-2004, 05:38 AM
Is this something u can use?

http://dv411.com/promedia.html

chribba

RayLarson
02-17-2004, 06:40 AM
The workaround is very simple....capture your DV thru firewire....edit then render out as an .avi file. Take it to Adobe Premiere (or external program of your choice) and output to tape thru firewire. Until we have that capability in T3, this is the most direct and best workaround I can find. I would entertain any other suggestions.

02-17-2004, 07:31 AM
Workflow:
Design project grows over weeks or months, My bit is the production of an animation of the finished design to be shown to the 'organ grinders' rather than the 'monkeys' at the client. It is a very important presentation and has to incorporate all the latest revisions etc.
Models are made, rendering goes on and on as little changes are made to elements of design requiring alterations to models or animations, re-rendering, last few bits of renderig are run overnight the day before the tapes have to be sent off, I load them onto the VT in the morning, tweak the final edit, show it to the boss, (now it's 14.00 and last pickup for US delivery tommorrow is 16.00) boss makes a few changes, I squirt it onto DV tape and as it plays the boss notices something so I change it again, squirt it onto tape and run to the door, where the courier is leaning on the doorbell.
Sorry, but that's how it works, every bloody time.
Render a 30minute edit to an AVI ,and then open another program, and check it again, and send it to tape ? You are joking aren't you?

Paul Lara
02-17-2004, 07:35 AM
Adrian,
NewTek is aware of your need to output directly via 1394, and is working on making that happen.

The 3-word search limitation is a function of the vBulletin software, and not some NewTek conspiracy to hide anything. ;)

eon5
02-17-2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by ScorpioProd
Hopefully VT[4] will support this.

VT4 !?!?!?!?!? :confused: :confused: :confused:

More info pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!! :eek:

Tom Wood
02-17-2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by RayLarson
The workaround is very simple....capture your DV thru firewire....edit then render out as an .avi file. Take it to Adobe Premiere (or external program of your choice) and output to tape thru firewire. Until we have that capability in T3, this is the most direct and best workaround I can find. I would entertain any other suggestions.

Hi Ray,

Since I create all my material in LightWave/Mirage, capture isn't an issue for me. But I do use DVApp that comes with VT3 to firewire out to tape. It's simple and a little finnicky about connections, but it works. I've found that I have to deselect the tape deck in VT3 Switcher, then close VT3, then open DVApp and Windows will then find the deck. It reports a couple of error messages (timecode and mode) upon startup, but then seems to work okay after that. The improvement in image quality with firewire to tape over Y/C to tape for CG images is pretty dramatic.

TW

SBowie
02-17-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by [email protected]
... as far as I can see from the various threads this has come up on over the past year, SBowie is pretty lonely in the 'DV is unsatisfactory' corner.

SNIP

And yes, preventing anyone new to the problem from looking it (DV) up in these forums by setting the minimum wordlength for the search engisn at '3' is pretty sad too. Anyone would think that there's something to hide. OK, first, you're right - Adrian. It is is very subjective ... but while DV is with us to stay and certainly good value, it's not a panacea, and (though it may indeed leave me "lonely" ... they laughed at Galileo, Lister et al, as well :) ) if you can't spot its deficiencies on a TV set from 30 feet away, you may want to consult an optometrist. ;)

Second, it would take a profoundly fertile imaginaition to think that the Forum Search character limitation has anything to do with the matter at hand.

Finally, I'm all for realtime DV out - who wouldn't be?

02-17-2004, 02:23 PM
Steve,
at least we agree, its all subjective.
As it happens, with the animations I produce - usually realisticaly lit smoky Rock'n Roll show design proposals (yes we designed the Superbowl Halftime Show, and no we didn't have anything to do with 'that')- we have spent a lot of time watching my stuff played back in a variety of ways.
No one in the office can tell the direct output from VT on a proper studio monitor with the playback from the DSR-11 of firewire transferred DV. Only the admin assistant cannot spot the quality loss on Svid transfer. None of us think VHS is acceptable. Neither we or our clients will pay up for a deck to record/playback from 'proper' digital video.
And no, I wasn't serious about deliberate search engine settings, but it is possibly just a little bit of a problem not to be able to search for posts on something which for some of us is actually quite important.
The desired effect of provoking a Newtek response was, however, achieved.

Paul Lara
02-18-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by [email protected]
...The desired effect of provoking a Newtek response was, however, achieved.

Steve,
It's not really necessary to 'provoke' responses. We're here on this forum to answer your questions, and my apologies if the reply didn't come soon enough.

SBowie
02-18-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Paul Lara
Steve,
It's not really necessary to 'provoke' responses. We're here on this forum to answer your questions, and my apologies if the reply didn't come soon enough. Errr, Paul - amigo ... you know I didn't make that remark. I responded to it, as did you. :)

Paul Lara
02-19-2004, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by SBowie
... you know I didn't make that remark.

Clearly.
Not sure how that happened. No worries.

Whicher
03-16-2004, 11:36 AM
Adrian,

Have you thought about getting something like a DVCAM DSR-1500 deck? There is an SDI input for those, and you don't have to shell out for a Digi Deck. I use a DSR-2000 when I have DV work and that's superb. Only used the 1500 as an edit deck once, but didn't have a problem. Admittedly though, it would mean spending money, and Firewire output from the VT[3] would save a lot of bother for you.

eon5
03-17-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by ScorpioProd
I use DVIO which used to be available from www.toastersupport.com. Not sure if it's still there.

where exactly is the link ?

i cant find it :(

tkx

Scott Bates
03-17-2004, 11:04 AM
It changed to http://www.vtknowledge.com/ (www.vtknowledge.com/) I just looked and couldn't find DVIO there, but I could email it to you, it's only about 8.6k zipped.

svbell
05-21-2004, 09:03 PM
The DDR playback trick _almost_ works. I can playback the uncompressed AVI file thru firewire, the deck gets it and records it, but I only have some audio issues, some sort of boring echo sound of the audio tracks.

Any clue??

sv