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cresshead
01-20-2004, 08:21 PM
i hope there's going to be a discovery version of lightwave 8 where you can save "scenes" plus objects and have a watermarked renderer like that of maya ple and soft xsi experience.

this would increase the possible number of users as they can do more than make low poly objects and could learn the many new tools in lightwave 8 as proton etc has already outlined that lightwave 8 is mainly concerned with layout improvments and so making a demo version non saving in layout would cripple the use of a demo version for prospective lightwave artists wishing to try this new version on a test drive before purchasing it.

PLEASE make the demo version work like maya ple or soft image xsi experience and be able to save animations scene files and have a watermarked output that is restricted in render size like xsi which is 510 510 pixels or that of cinema 6 CE which is 600 * 400 pixels..or like houdini which is 640 x 480 with a small watermark not a checker pattern mess like that of lightwave 7.5

steve gilbert

infoATcresshead.com

Ross_DD
01-21-2004, 11:59 AM
Hi,

with respect, i agree and i'm right with You at all.

ThanX

KillMe
01-21-2004, 12:40 PM
while i agree the lw demo should not be limited in your point count or aniamtions etc you dont want a watermark liek that of maya ple its horendous and it even shows in teh solid shaded view its terrible - absolutly terrible i cant work with it because of that

i'd say a better route to go down is the houdini route

640x480 render with a subtle watermark or somethign liek houdini down in the corner somewhere

as lw modeler is a sep app essentailly woudl need a custom non comercial file format too jsut enough so that it cant be imported into a commerical light ( or other app ) remove the otehr export options and i wouldn't worry about that making it easy to pirate if you only change the format slightly as the full blown lw has been cracked and i sinerily doubt they will make 8 uncrackable

anyway if the demo was good enough people wouldn't feel the need to crack it

so yeah custom file formats subtle watermark and leave the rest alone make a the best demo version out there =) hmmm thenj post a copy to everyone who has a computer =) - or more realistically to every digital arts school uni - cource what ever get it into as many receptive hands as possible

just curious what do you people think about cinema 6 ce? - newtek could do somethign similar with lw 6.5 - i dont know how effective it was i have it somewhere i installed it played for 5 misn then ran back to lightwave but i suppose for those that dont have another app it might well have been a lifeline for there 3d aspirations

cresshead
01-21-2004, 03:57 PM
nearly all of my current students [33 of them] bought the 3d world mag to get cinema 6 CE and two now own cinema 8 as a result and one has updated to the full non restricted render versionof cinema 6 for 80.....so 10% have a full commercial version of cinema and 100% have the ce version and would probably go to the full version if i ran a course taking them thru it...i'm yet to do that i really like lightwave and 3ds max and would put maya as my next port of call rather than cinema...if there was a good enough demand though i'd run a cinema intro course like the lightwave intro course i run for 8 weeks [8 six hour days at college]

so a similar thing for lightwave could boost sales..having said that even with the discovery version of lightwave 7.5 i managed to run a 8 week intro course and from that course 4 students went out and bought the full commercial version of lightwave 7.5 and that was 4 out of 16 students in a class 25% went for a full version after having a good grounding in lightwave where as so far not one person has bought a commercial version of 3ds max after teaching around 90 students last year although 3 bought student versions of 3ds max..so that's quite a poor showing for converting students to full or edu versions of 3ds max and that's the core 3d app we teach.

by the above results i'd say converting from a free "CE" version over to a full commercial version is down to 2 main factors

1.the avalablity of decent video tutorials and free courseware
2.the price of the commerial version and the percieved value of the app.

i've tried pretty darn hard to showcase lightwave in a super positve light when up against 3dsmax 5 and character studio and lightwave always won on every level except setting up ik and rigging characters..but that's about to change!

KillMe
01-21-2004, 04:31 PM
well thats a pretty good ratio - so perhaps a slightly crippled 6.5 and a good demo of 8 bundled together could help sales at the student level signigicantly especially if that 6.5 had an upgrade to 8 for a special discount or something

as for your stuudents not buying max well its not cheap and the student version stops working after a while so its not what you'd call a great deal so hardly surprising but its ncie to see your introducing people to lightwave

i got a commercial license myself because they had lw at college - i spent ages messing around in the college labs when noone was using them - not even as part of my corce was doing graphic design and they didn't let us near lightwave in class =/ which i was annoyed about anyway did some renders there and got offered some work doing architeural vis so i got myself a ncie license seat and now i play from home and lightwave has already mroe than payed for itself ( quit college the cource was pathetic - they made us write essays about everything from adveritsing law to how corporatoions worked etc and when they did let use even use photoshop well the teachers were less than brilliant at sharing there knowledge they seem to always be working on there own stuff some of which i'm sure was commericial work)

anyway i'm sure that getting lightwave into the hands of students is the way to go it was the first professional 3d app i ever encounters and i would ahte to swap it for another app

so come on newtek seem the way to get more lw seats sold is to produce a lightwave 6.5 CE version and a kick *** 8 demo

stib
01-21-2004, 05:30 PM
so far not one person has bought a commercial version of 3ds max after teaching around 90 students last year
didn't I read somewhere that 3DS was the most pirated software ever? That could be the reason why.

cresshead
01-21-2004, 05:47 PM
re max..absolutley...the price and the number of pirate versions does knock the number of commercial seats bought..but more than that max has a poor P.R. in films and television..it's the king of games for the moment though xsi and maya are making huge inroads due to price and capabilities so max's market share of games has reduced over the last 18 months...

maya's pr is stunning with lord of the rings the main theme for pitching sales and ilm using it on huge projects...

xsi is having a harder time but doing very well in games and t.v plus some top film fx too...

max really struggles in film, it just not cut out for huge stuff

lightwave does really well and jimmy neutron pushed it to the front with a nomination for a oscar...for off the shelf software it really did the job up against pixar etc...

we see amazing fx in t.v shows such as enterprise, children of dune, max steel, dan dare and all those shows plus a sizable chunk of large fx such as in the core etc.

a lw8 demo with a good gallery of shows/fx in films would help it's pr to users...

cinema really is oout in the cold for good pr..it's great app but not used in much t.v and film or games...though things can change...

eacide
01-21-2004, 07:12 PM
cresshead, your summary of the market is quite good. I have to say it though... You'll have to remember that the current strength of Max is far beyond LW's.

==> Max has been shipped with reactor for 3 years now. Reactor was what the current LW improvement are... Plus reactor has a basic but useful fluid dynamic mode
==> Character Studio is an amazing tool often used in the gaming industry (BTW LW should include some MoCap animation like standard BVH animation. Personnaly, I do not care I own Motion Builder and I know a couple of websites which give free mocaps).
==> Max is now shipped with Mental Ray which, according to a lot of users, is a better, quicker and more flexible renderer than LW's native (though it suits completely my needs, that is the reason why, I do not feel the need to look at the others).
==> Max 6 now has particle flow which seems more flexible and powerful than PFX.
==> Max has had edge tools / edge weighting (I remember the crease tool in the subdivision modifier in Max 4), many snapping options (though buggy in the past) a modifier stack (that I only find useful in animation).

The only thing max does not have :
==> An intuitive interface la LW. I really prefer LW's interface
==> 1024 free render nodes (I am not sure students are very concerned by this incredible thing).

That were my 2 cts.

mkiii
01-22-2004, 01:09 AM
Max does not come with a Character Studio License. It costs an additional $995, although the built in bones systems seems to be at least as good as that in LW.

Gui Lo
01-22-2004, 03:09 AM
Could files saved from the demo only load back into the demo version?
It would be nice if users could render to a file so that it can be emailed to NewTek and a 'clean' render is sent back. This would good for portfolios.

Gui Lo

BeeVee
01-22-2004, 04:32 AM
A few points:

1. Although the Discovery Edition does not save scene files, it does load standard LightWave scenes and objects, the file formats are not different to LightWave's standard LWS and LWO, meaning that something you worked on in the Discovery Edition has to be thrown away once you get the full licence, as happens with Maya and XSI.

2. I think I'm correct in saying that none of the other companies' educational versions are a) as complete as LightWave's (it's everything you get in a full commercial licence), b) offer any kind of technical support and c) some are time-limited (xsi I think)

3. LightWave has come with sample BVH files since v7.0 and possibly even 6.0 (not sure on that one!) and it is limited to only 999 free render nodes (only! :).

B

KillMe
01-22-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by BeeVee
and it is limited to only 999 free render nodes (only! :).

i want 1002 :D

seriously though you could still use a unique format for the discovery edition but just make it so the full version can read the demo format but not vice versa - then none of you work in demo land has been waste when you swithc but you can also create a far better demo edition

just look at houdini apprentice - excelent demo version even if teh program is an absolute nightmare to learn and they offer a conversion of your demo material to commerical version but they only do this once which is probally a secsible procuasion to stop people using the demo and selling it to people with commerical version

but i definalty think the lw demo should head down that route trying to model with 200 point over what ever it would be pointless for anything other than jstu messing around leaning the basics cant actually achieve anything so will elave you with a bad taste in your mouth