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WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 11:56 AM
What are your thoughts of the Undo/Redo buttons being removed from the Modeler interface and being put in the edit drop down?

see comparison here:
http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/screenshots.html

Aegis
01-13-2004, 12:04 PM
Well, I'd say that unless you need the space to fit something else, I'd leave them - personally I use hotkeys for most things but maybe there's users out there that like to use the buttons - if it ain't broke...

Another point is that the whole deal of putting undo/redo in a menu makes the option redundant - you can't click 128 times on a drop-down - people will just use the hotkey instead - ultimately it reduces functionality and ease-of-use...

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 12:06 PM
in 800x600 you dont have the room....and some users still use 800 x 600 :(

Kvaalen
01-13-2004, 12:07 PM
Personally, I never use the Undo/Redo Cut/Copy/Paste buttons but rather the shortcuts, so for me it is fine.
I suppose it takes up less room there so it is better. :)

Aegis
01-13-2004, 12:09 PM
in 800x600 you dont have the room....and some users still use 800 x 600

Heretics! :mad:

cagey5
01-13-2004, 12:13 PM
I'd agree. I never use the buttons, to be honest I didn't even know they were there.

Lewis
01-13-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm aslo with Aegis on this. Why to remove them if they aren't space problem ? If they re in pull down menu that's more clicks than needed.

Make them Customizable so that users can REMOVE them if they really need room. But i realy don't see point of using LW in 800*600 for WORK, only thing what can be useful is screen capture of videos (i asume you asking because of that).

But ANY user who can't use LW on bigger resolution than 800*600 need to buy bigger/better monitor or GFX card :).

IMHO ofcourse.

Sean Martin
01-13-2004, 12:14 PM
Well what do you Know,!? I've only been using Lightwave for a couple of years and never even noticed the Undo/Redo Buttons at the bottom.

Been using the keyboard short cuts, so I won't miss it.

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:16 PM
i think that cut copy paste and undo redo can all get binned from the bottom of the u.i. in modeler and instead replaced with blank areas to drop your fav tools "of the moment" such as smooth shift, spin quads, etc...

also numeric doesn't need a button as it's so easy to remember the shortcut key "n"

that area would be best served with often used tools so that they do not disapear from tab to tab and you know it's working or the current tool is active such a tool would be the move tool for example...

i'd also prefer that when pressing the space bar you cycle thru point and polys and don't go thru volume as i d on't use it that much and it ususally catched me out when i'm in vol mode by accident so a vol mode button is prfereble where by you don't cycle thru it...

currently most people work with the numeric panel open so you can "see" when a tool is active..if you don't do this you can oly guess what's the current tool or get a "clue" via the cursor icon in you viewport...it would make sense to me that somewhere in the u.i there was a highlighted area that TOLD YOU what the current tool was with no need for the numeric panel being open or being on the correct tab in the modeler interface.

just my opinion you understand!

Matt
01-13-2004, 12:18 PM
Good to see NT values our opinion! :) Although I can see a 50 / 50 split happening! :)

- - -

Veteren users I'm pretty certain use the hotkeys for undo/redo (in fact they use the hotkeys for almost all functions they can remember) so removing them wouldn't bother them. Obviously there are exceptions, some users just don't like using hotkeys, or simply can't remember them.

It's new users this will affect more. If LW is to become more accessible to new users, I would say keep them visible as they are frequently accessed functions.

Having them visible as shows the hotkey for them too, so new users will eventually pick these up.

I take it the bottom bar will still be editable? If so, advanced users can always edit them out later if they need the space for something else.

Aegis has a good point, if there is space available why remove them?

Why not create two menu sets, one for advanced users and one for new users?

Matt

edit : how many posts since I started typing this one!!!! :)

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:21 PM
maybe you could turn that bottom area into a "shelf" of buttons that you can make up and also have a drop down to switch from one shelf to another much like maya [ouch!] it works for them so why not lightwave?

the main reason i'd like to get away from the numeric panel being open is that it takes up too much space on one monitor...if you could "dock it" and have it expand much like the tools in corel draw that would help out in good workflow..same with stats pane and layers a well.

Titus
01-13-2004, 12:24 PM
I won't miss them.

bloontz
01-13-2004, 12:26 PM
I say put them in the standard edit menu like the majority of other apps and give them the standard shortcuts that users expect on a given platform.

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:28 PM
i'd also vote the the mode drop down to diplay the "current mode" without having to drop it down...just look at at!...so it would have
"mode mouse"
"mode origin"
"mode pivot"
"mode selection"


rather than "mode"

works for me!

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
i'd also vote the the mode drop down to diplay the "current mode" without having to drop it down...just look at at!...so it would have
"mode mouse"
"mode origin"
"mode pivot"
"mode selection"


rather than "mode"

works for me!

That is for another conversation ...lets keep focused on this thread.

GruvSyco
01-13-2004, 12:31 PM
sheesh... looks like I may be one of the only people that uses them. Personally I don't give a crapolla... if they go away, I'll adapt to either their new location of start using the keyboard shortcuts more often.

ufo3d
01-13-2004, 12:34 PM
Proton, can we assign the shortcut keys for wireframe, flat shade, smooth shade, texture; and front, back, prespective ., etc in LW8?

T-Light
01-13-2004, 12:36 PM
OK, I'll CTRL+X to the chase, :p

I'm with most on the
'Get rid of them if you need the space theme'.

However, I agree with bloontz, if they're to be removed from the main screen, Cut, Copy and paste needs to be standardised with other apps (Sorry Mac users, can't remember if your defaults are the same).

Experienced users know how to change the keyboard shortcuts anyway, so new users with standard OS knowledge would be able to use the edit operations straight off the bat.

Matt
01-13-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by proton
That is for another conversation ...lets keep focused on this thread.

Proton, the whole bottom menu can be edited anyway, can I ask what the reason for your asking:

a) ease of use for new users (visible on screen)

b) conformity with other applications (location)

c) space reasons at 800x600

d) other!

Carm3D
01-13-2004, 12:39 PM
I never used the UNDO button once if I recall. I just used the hotkey.

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Matt
Proton, the whole bottom menu can be edited anyway, can I ask what the reason for your asking:

a) ease of use for new users (visible on screen)

b) conformity with other applications (location)

c) space reasons at 800x600

d) other!


A- Yes

B- Yes

C- Yes

I feel that the new tools that have been placed there are more important for the valuable (limited) space. Users can edit but there should be a defualt setup that works. Just want to make it as usable as possible. Numeric was never on teh interface as well as the Make button....weird that you would be forced into a shortcut key for such important tools.

I think the comprimise will be to move the Surface back and move info as well....if the majority want undo/redo back

sketchyjay
01-13-2004, 12:40 PM
When I was a new user the lack of easy to find buttons drove me nuts for a week. after that I began to grasp the short-cut keys. in a month I was up to speed so I think you can't remove those buttons. If there is an intermediate/expert button layout then drop them for those settings.

In any case long as those buttons can be removed and new ones added then it won't matter for experienced users. I say leave them.

Jay

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:42 PM
keeping on topic... [i got the hint!!]

for those who want undo/redo like most windows apps you can re assign your keyboard shortcuts so they act like a typical windows app

just re assign them here...

and you'll not need them in the main u.i all the time as most windows users shold be able to figure out that undo is cntrl z

maye have this as a windows shortcut key setup config..?

just bin the undo redo buttons from the bottom and put them in the modify tab.

Matt
01-13-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by T-Light
However, I agree with bloontz, if they're to be removed from the main screen, Cut, Copy and paste needs to be standardised with other apps (Sorry Mac users, can't remember if your defaults are the same)

the only problem with that is that other apps have real menus e.g:

Edit Menu
Undo
Redo
- - - - - - - - -
Cut
Copy
Paste

LightWave has tabs which switch a toolbar, so even if it had an "Edit" tab with those functions inside, it wouldn't be quite the same, similar, but not the same, although I can completely see the logic for making the change to be more 'universal'.




We have added an Edit drop down under File

problemchild
01-13-2004, 12:43 PM
I'd use the space for a hotkey index, helping everyone and those who used the buttons instead of hotkeys. -or is there a hotkey index button within easy reach?

thanks for asking.

-r

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:43 PM
opps forgot the screen grab!

CB_3D
01-13-2004, 12:44 PM
I donīt need them, but i think theyīd be nice to have for a beginner. In my personal menu i have an Edit dropdown with them, and with several other Layer tools.

If i may make one suggestion , there is one important Tab missing, has been forever. A clean "Everything included" tab with EVERYTHING logically named pulldowns.



Now letīs talk about the button bevels....

;)

cresshead
01-13-2004, 12:47 PM
just add an edit tab and put:

Edit Menu
Undo
Redo
- - - - - - - - -
Cut
Copy
Paste


in it...

jds580s
01-13-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by proton
Numeric was never on teh interface as well as the Make button....weird that you would be forced into a shortcut key for such important tools.

I think the comprimise will be to move the Surface back and move info as well....if the majority want undo/redo back

I vote for removing Undo, Redo, Cut, Copy, while keeping Make, Numeric, Surface, Info.

I always hated it when I started using the type tool, but wanted to change the font in the numeric panel, I hit 'n' once then twice wondering why it's not working, then see that in my viewport I've typed "nn" :)

I also would think standard Ctrl+z Undo, Ctrl+Shift+z Redo, Ctrl+c copy, Ctrl+v paste, Ctrl+x cut shortcuts would help new users (as the default setup).

Justin

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 12:49 PM
In LightWave Eight there is an Edit Drop Down located right under File in both Layout and Modeler.

Aegis
01-13-2004, 12:50 PM
I think the comprimise will be to move the Surface back and move info as well....if the majority want undo/redo back

Well, I suspect the majority (myself included) won't miss them if they disappear to the menus, the point being how easy to learn do you want LightWave to be for those that have yet to use it?

One of LightWave's "hooks" has always been that most of the functionality is right there in front of you in plain English (especially with Modeler). Tucking stuff away in menus ultimately makes the program more confusing to newbies (although I guess if you can't figure out that undo is Ctrl+Z then maybe LightWave isn't the software for you... :D)

I guess if it allows more functionality and better workflow then go for it - just don't make a habit of it ;) (hiding stuff in menus I mean)...

Matt
01-13-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by proton
A- Yes

B- Yes

C- Yes

Oh well that narrows it down to three then! ;)

In that case, move them to an "Edit Menu" and put the more workflow orientated tools down there.

Tools that you use almost every action (Make, Drop Tool, Numeric etc.)

_Brand new_ users will be more akin to looking under the edit menu (due to previous experience with other apps) than on the main interface.

Existing users will:

a) use hotkeys anyway

b) edit them back in if they need them there

Matt

phil lawson
01-13-2004, 12:54 PM
I've always used the shortcuts, and to be honest didnt even notice they were there until after I had Lightwave for 6months lol.
So I wouldnt miss them.

T-Light
01-13-2004, 12:54 PM
Hello Steve,

I know what you're saying, but changing keyboard shortcuts is easy for us, we know where they are, but new users to Lightwave or modeller are completely lost. I've sat people down in front of LW and watched them tremble.

As matt mentioned, there's no standard menus in LW, similar, but not the same. If Cut, Copy, Undo etc were standardised with windows, all the experienced LW'ers wouldn't have any difficulty in changing the keys back, and new users wouldn't have any difficulty with basic edit operations. :)

sketchyjay
01-13-2004, 12:56 PM
Oh that's different!

If you are going for uniformity between apps then How about setting Ctrl-Z on pc and Command-Z on mac to undo. If the shortcut keys are similar to the rest of the OS then the buttons can be dropped.

You can remove the surface button becaue it is redundent. You already have it up on the tool bar

You can also drop the info button since I don't think I used it all that much even after I knew what it did. That is unless there are new tools that use the points selected in it.

CB_3D
01-13-2004, 12:57 PM
Now that we solved that, can we have the big 8, please :D

Aegis
01-13-2004, 01:01 PM
SketchyJay: I think I read somewhere that they're gonna do the system shortcuts thang with 8... that or I've been drinking WAY too much coffee...

Matt
01-13-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by proton
In LightWave Eight there is an Edit Drop Down located right under File in both Layout and Modeler.

I find those menus unweildy (too many sub-menus) and very non-standard, I would consider putting them in a new tab.

I've pulled a lot of the functions from out of those menus and put them in tabs.

But that's just me!

anieves
01-13-2004, 01:02 PM
it is down:(

ddho1981
01-13-2004, 01:07 PM
Just throwing in my vote. . . i use shortcut keys so i won't miss them. i don't think i used those buttons when i first started messing with lw either.

T-Light
01-13-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by anieves
it is down:(


Not Again!

er

What is down? :confused:

cdeutekom
01-13-2004, 01:29 PM
You know it really doesnt matter other than the fact that Lightwave 8 needs to avoid feature creep. For us in software development, this is where functionality keeps being added to the product after the Design Specs are finalized. I say if you want to move the Undo/Redo under the edit menu, place that in a point release. Just ensure that the product works as currently designed and release the product. Right now, i would just worry about fixing any bugs that may in the software. And in its current state, where the Undo/Redo buttons are placed is not software bug. But hey, that is just my opinion.

Like software developers sometimes joke, "It's not a bug, it's a feature".

As far a the Undo/Redo button goes though. Unless the realestate needed for something else, I would leave the buttons alone. Placeing buttons that are used most often on the interface is good interface design. If we notice other applications sometimes even put this kind of stuff in both the edit menu and as a button. Which you could place it as a button and under the edit menu. Maybe in the future, make the interface buttons customizable by the user. This would probably be the best idea yet. But definitely something for beyond Lightwave 8.

triton
01-13-2004, 02:01 PM
I need Edgebevel+ with included this functions..

I see in LW 8 have DAZ Edgebevel , but it kill symmetry ?

Maxx
01-13-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
i'd also vote the the mode drop down to diplay the "current mode" without having to drop it down...just look at at!...so it would have
"mode mouse"
"mode origin"
"mode pivot"
"mode selection"


rather than "mode"

works for me!

cresshead - this is currently possible, and I think has been for quite some time. The attached shows the Configure Menu settings to make it possible and my current set-up - love it this way!

http://www.maxxwv.com/stuff/menu.jpg

Back on topic, personally I say keep the Undo-Redo. I remember when I first started with LW, I would be making boxes constantly trying to cut, and I always hit ctrl-z and ctrl-y for Undo/Redo. However, it's just natural now. I think, what with the customizability of the menus, it's not an issue for even a mediocre user to get rid of the buttons if they're a pain. But for the newb, it's kind of nice to see them there.

Kvaalen
01-13-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by triton
I need Edgebevel+ with included this functions..

I see in LW 8 have DAZ Edgebevel , but it kill symmetry ?

The first one is what it does right now (if I understood corectly, it is even better the the DAZ edgebevel). The second can be done witht the free wrinkle plugin (very useful). And as for the third... I don't see much use for it. If ever I need such a thing it isn't a problem to create it from the first version.

But as proton said... lets keep on topic, I really don't see what this has to do with Protons' question. :)

Adrian Lopez
01-13-2004, 02:41 PM
Remember the interface designer's mantra: a feature that isn't visible is called an invisible feature.

Now, if you're going move the undo and redo buttons, make sure they are still visible. Putting them in a top-level Edit menu might accomplish that, but putting the Edit menu inside the File menu might not.

By the way, I wish you would change the way the menus work: right now, selecting an option from a top level menu will cause the menu to show up in that position the next time it is used. I find this extremely confusing in that the point of reference for making menu choices keeps changing. This may seem convenient when accessing the crowded Generics and Additional menus, but you really should place those buttons within the main tabs anyway (remember: if it isn't visible, it's invisible). Changing the point of reference just makes it impossible for the user to assimilate menu choices into automatic gestures.

cresshead
01-13-2004, 02:55 PM
yeah that sort a works except it takes up load of room...i'd prefer that the current state is reflected rather than the name of the divider..

here's my version i just made with an enhanced top left button bar so i can always see the state of move, drag, make and drop tool etc no matter what tab i'm on..

BTW is there a keyboard shortcut to cycle through the tabs in modeler and layout?

i also put cut, copy and paste in a dropdown as this makes logical sense as it's an "action" and not a "current state" so you only go there to do something and do not need to know it's current state like the move tool..this saves space.


steve g

sketchyjay
01-13-2004, 03:08 PM
I like cressheads menu.

the cut/copy/paste undo/redo in that kind of drop down on the bottom of the screen would of been a blessing if I had it when I started lightwave.

I also agree with actions and states that he mentioned. you really don't need them always visable long as they are easy to find.

Jay

Kuzey
01-13-2004, 04:13 PM
Hey Proton...maybe there should have two setups...beginner and advanced. Best of both worlds:p

I play around with mine all the time..here's my current setup :


Kuzey

hrgiger
01-13-2004, 05:22 PM
I've never once touched the undo or redo button unless I hit it by mistake. I don't use a lot of hot keys, but undo and redo are definately two of them. I say nuke em.

robinson
01-13-2004, 05:29 PM
never ever used this undo and redo button in modeler, so I removed it. ;)

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 05:35 PM
The Community Has Spoken....Thanx for all the great feedback.

Karmacop
01-13-2004, 07:07 PM
Dammit, am I late!? :(

Anyway, I use undo and redo buttons all the time .. and I've been using lightwave for years and use other shortcuts .. :p

I think it may be best to have a few default menu layouts that people can choose from. And like Adrian said, if users can't see it, they'll think it can't be done .. beginners atleast.

hrgiger
01-13-2004, 08:06 PM
True Karmacop. It would be nice to just have the option to have whatever buttons we wanted, where ever we wanted.

themaxx
01-13-2004, 08:13 PM
I know I'm late in responding to this, but since I've made it this far...

I never use the undo/redo buttons, but I did learn the shortcuts because they were on the buttons. I wouldn't miss the buttons now, but if they hadn't been there in the beginning I wouldn't have known the shortcuts.

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
True Karmacop. It would be nice to just have the option to have whatever buttons we wanted, where ever we wanted.

Alt + F10

eacide
01-13-2004, 08:52 PM
I hope that I could import in 8 my menu layout as well as all the shortcut from 7.5. I have spent month finding the best for me
:(

hopicus
01-13-2004, 09:42 PM
What the?... there gone? put those back where you found them right this instant!...

the undo and redo / paste and cut buttons are the buttons that i use the most... they're needed more at the bottom of the interface than whats now at the bottom of LW 8...

and its not like there isnt enough space for them... theres plenty of room down there...

im not even sure what the short cuts are for them...

WilliamVaughan
01-13-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by eacide
I hope that I could import in 8 my menu layout as well as all the shortcut from 7.5. I have spent month finding the best for me
:(

They will work...but you will need to add all the new tools to your menus :)

hrgiger
01-13-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by proton
Alt + F10

Well, I know we can configure our menus.

I guess I was referring to the undo, redo buttons. Can we take those out if we dont' want them there?

Karmacop
01-13-2004, 11:18 PM
Yep, yolu've always been able to remove undo and redo if you want. You're allowed to change more than just the tabs, you really should have a look into it ...

stef
01-13-2004, 11:55 PM
File buttons both in Modeler and Layout should be 'in toto' (and with their respective submenus) transfered to the top of the Finder (mac equiv of Window's Desktop). It seemed always weird to me that File menu in Finder replicates [only some] functions of the File button of LW below, and yet other useful File commands from LW were not up there. It is a logical place for it, these functions do not need to clutter LW. So should "cut", "copy", "paste" be relegated to Edit's menu, up there, away from LW interface. In a default mode that is. If someone wants to custom map it 'downstairs' they should be able to do it and have a luxury of it if they wish. This not only would free the LW's GUI space, but would make LW better integrated within the operational system, being more standardized across the board offering a familiar computer experience. Also it is weird how both apps close out differently....
But this does not have to appear in 8 if this would produce unnecessary delays. FYI Graph Editor in 7.5 does not work in Panther and we need either a patch a.s.a.p. or the 8. Situation very urgent for mac users...

bloontz
01-14-2004, 07:19 AM
Like Stef is alluding to, the end user experience is much more intuitive if an application adheres to the interface guidelines established by the OS. This gives a certain degree of familiarity to an application right out of the box.

Apple interface guidlines (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html)

Microsoft interface guidelines (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/nhp/default.asp?contentid=28000443)

Simon
01-14-2004, 08:40 AM
I never use any of the buttons on that bottom bar, I tried to remove them all in 'edit menus' (hoping for more viewport space) but it still leaves a blank bar at the bottom.

I always always try to use a hotkey rather than click on something. That's why we have 2 hands! Right hand for mouse, left hand for hotkeys!

A Mejias
01-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Well, my vote is to remove ALL buttons and menus from the bottom of both Modeler and Layout. Keep them all on the top and side to reduce mousing around the screen.

3D|Dave
01-14-2004, 04:29 PM
If your removing those buttons, perhaps the playback buttons could be re-organized so they are not crammed into the right side of the screen. Perhaps spreading them out a little and make them slightly bigger?

thekho
01-14-2004, 05:38 PM
I agree with everyone about removeing both Undo and Redo cos I never use both Undo and redo button. I use a keyboard shortcuts all times.

Dodgy
01-14-2004, 06:47 PM
Get rid of them. I always use my Layout ina shrunk mode (with the other windows around it) and it takes what 2 minutes to learn the hotkeys for them, especially since LW handily puts the hot key next to the item in the menu!

wacom
01-14-2004, 07:10 PM
My vote: If you're going to remove the undo button then PLEASE make undo Ctrl-z! When I'm switching from one app to the next I keep hitting "u". It only takes once for me to get back on track now...but if I had a dime for everytime I did this when I was "leaning" the basics of LW...

Ctrl-z, Ctrl-x, Ctrl-y etc. these are such software standards on a wintel system...and the mac versions aren't that far off from these either...

Tesselator
01-14-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by proton
What are your thoughts of the Undo/Redo buttons being removed from the Modeler interface and being put in the edit drop down?

see comparison here:
http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/screenshots.html

To me personally and also to me as a teacher, it doesn't matter
either way. I teach and use the shortcut keys and so I don't
think I've ever even seen anyone using those buttons. Maybe
on very rare occations when my left hand was holding a Scooter
Pie or something. :D

Tesselator
01-14-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by wacom
My vote: If you're going to remove the undo button then PLEASE make undo Ctrl-z! When I'm switching from one app to the next I keep hitting "u". It only takes once for me to get back on track now...but if I had a dime for everytime I did this when I was "leaning" the basics of LW...

Ctrl-z, Ctrl-x, Ctrl-y etc. these are such software standards on a wintel system...and the mac versions aren't that far off from these either...

You can easily do that yourself you know... :)