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View Full Version : comparison motion builder "price hike"



cresshead
01-11-2004, 12:19 PM
just before xmas 2003 you could upgrade your FREE motionbuilder ple to a full version for $200 saving several hundred dollars off the rrp of $495...

i decided that lightwave 8 would be my prefered route for character animation so i didn't take up the offer.

the offer has now expired but i took a look at their site today and
discovered that the base version of motionbuilder is now $995 not $495 and support is $250 per year...Hmmm bargin!

seems that kayara has re priced it's software again and doubled the price of the base version just 11 days after the upgade cycle ended..they've snared quite a few into an upgrade path of $250 per year...at least it looks that way to me...so i'm quite happy that i didn't go that route in the end.

have i got this right?
or am i missing somthing that i haven't seen on their site?

plus there's no upgrade pricing at all by the look of it..


this is quite a stark contrast to how newtek conduct business dn't you think?

Yog
01-11-2004, 01:04 PM
I have to admit that Newtek's upgade policy is probably the best out there.
Miss a release or two ? No problem, when you do upgrade you'll pay the same amount as the people using the latest version :)
A number of other companies could benifit from going this route, although it does create some uncertainty in projected sales figures.

As for Kaydara's pricing. First you have to realise that prior to last year, Motionbuilder was several thousand dollars, it just happened to be going through a price restructuring and an (almost) year long introductory promotion.
Since around February of last year Michel Besner of Kaydara has been saying over at CGTalk that MB would go up to $995 after 31st December, so no real surprises there.

I've not seen $495 mentioned anywhere, but there was/is a $350 upgrade path for those that had registered their MB vr4 PLE before August 1st 2003, but handn't upgraded before December 31st. Basically if you hadn't registered your MB vr4 (free or $100 version) before August 1st, none of the upgrade special prices were open to you.

I suspect that this is why there was such a clamour for information from Newtek on LW8 prior to Aug 1st, and then again prior to Dec 31st. People wanted to know whether it was worth taking up Kaydara's offer before they lost out completely.

And I beleve the $250/year support is optional. You can still get your questions answered on various forums, but no telephone support from the supplier. Which is fine by me because in 8 years of using 3D software I've not had a case to use phone support.

There is no indication of how Kaydara will handle future upgrades, but I would assume that they will follow the Alias/Discreet/Autodesk route, one price for current upgrades, another sliding set of prices if you are coming from an older version.
As far as I know Newtek are the only big player that has a policy of one upgrade price covers all previous versions.

TyVole
01-11-2004, 01:11 PM
Actually, the retail price of v5 was always $995. If I recall correctly, if you upgraded prior to 1/1/4, the upgrade from PLE was $100 (or $200), and if you upgraded between 1/1/4 and before your PLE license expired, it was to be $395 (or $495 or something similar.)

The $250 support is new. But before, they didn't provide any support.

I'm one of the few people who dislikes MB, so I wouldn't have upgraded at any price. Even though LW is slow, I'd rather animate in LW. And if v8 doesn't come out until 2005, I still won't regret my decision.

anieves
01-11-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
Actually, the retail price of v5 was always $995. If I recall correctly, if you upgraded prior to 1/1/4, the upgrade from PLE was $100 (or $200), and if you upgraded between 1/1/4 and before your PLE license expired, it was to be $395 (or $495 or something similar.)

The $250 support is new. But before, they didn't provide any support.

I'm one of the few people who dislikes MB, so I wouldn't have upgraded at any price. Even though LW is slow, I'd rather animate in LW. And if v8 doesn't come out until 2005, I still won't regret my decision.

you aren't alone on this, I rather animate in LW as well. I hate to juggle from app to app to get something done and I think eventually makes things harder to keep track of. If I start in LW I finish in LW makes things easier and you don't have to memorize thousands of shortcuts for each app. ;)

Of course this is a personal issue, everybody is different, I do belive that the more you know the better off you are but personally I just like to keep things as simple as possible and that's the main reason I use LW in the first place.

cresshead
01-11-2004, 05:36 PM
just been going thru old emails and i think that it's possible to upgrade my liecence to a full version for $395 until march 31st 2004...

if lw8 comes out befor march 31 i still might have a way out to upgrade to mobuilder though i've not really used it much as yet as i'm rather hoping that lw8 will be good enough and i agree that staying in one app is most preferable...plus at a push i'd consider messiah animate over motion builder anyway if lightwave 8 doesn't deliver for character animation when she arrives.

c n p'd from an email from kaydara a while back:
>>>>>


1. Less than 60 days to upgrade to MOTIONBUILDER 5 Standard Edition for $200
If you are a Personal Edition user, remember that you have less than 60 days to take advantage of the amazing upgrade cost of $200 for a full MB5 license. If Kaydara has not contacted you regarding how you can upgrade, or if you need more info, please let us know at [email protected]

After December 31st, it will cost you $395 for the same upgrade (valid until March 30th - no discount afterwards).

isnowboard
01-11-2004, 06:40 PM
I asked the folks at Kaydara:

Is there a plan if I purchase MotionBuilder and I decide to skip an upgrade?

Answer: No.

Will there be non biped support in the future? For example characters with 3 legs and 6 arms etc.

Answer: No, not in the near future.

Can I resell the licence:

Answer: No.

There are some really nice features in MB and the speed is incredible, however, for me, I'm not really angry that I didn't pick up my copy for $200, even though I had the opportunity.

cresshead
01-11-2004, 07:01 PM
yeah it's rather limited..much like character studio...what they do they do very well but step outside of their capabilities and they can't deliver....

lightwave 7.x is much more flexible if a little slower...and messiah is very flexible and just as fast as motion builder...if not faster.
but there's a price to pay...sometimes it's worth it though.

i'll wait for 8 [ooh that rhymes!]


:)

Librarian
01-11-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
and messiah is very flexible and just as fast as motion builder...if not faster.

No, not really. Viewport speed of MB is unbeatable. Although Messiah`s viewports are very fast, it is way behind Motionbuilders. But I prefer the faster workflow between Messiah<>LW. LW FBX is limited. LW Messiah displacement is less frustrating. And Messiah can use subdiv LW Objects.
But MB is worth the 200$ anyway.

cresshead
01-11-2004, 09:01 PM
yeah mb for $200 was good..though it's now $395 for anyone left with a ple version...which is $200 cheaper than messiah...until 31 march when MB will be $995 so making it $300 more than messiah...

time has it's hand in there eh?

hrgiger
01-11-2004, 10:15 PM
Yeah, I thought of taking advantage of that MB offer but I'm glad now I didn't.
If I had the money, I would probably consider using Messiah but my first choice of course would be able to animate inside of Lightwave.
IK and FK is supposed to be faster in Lightwave 8. We'll also have to see if that improves in subsequent point releases.

colkai
01-12-2004, 02:33 AM
I took advantage of the MB upgrade offer with 7 days left to go, (talk about cutting it close).

I do like MB, it is helping give me an insight into CA which I don't think I would of tackled in LW.
The real-time feedback on animation is great and it has support for quadraped.
As to whether I will use it in real terms, what with the import/animate/export etc path I don't know, certainly not with the provided models as they are somewhat basic.
As a learning tool though, it will be useful to me, for skilled animators I guess it's a different story.
Though I do think the upcoming toolset in LW8 would probably have dragged me screaming into looking at CA anyway ;)

Yog
01-12-2004, 05:28 AM
It's definately a matter of personal preference and workflow compatability.

First off I'm not really a character animator (at the momment). I've tried animating characters in LW, and I did not find it easy, it just seemed to be at odds with the way my brain was working. I found Messiah even more alien to the way my brain worked, just lists and lists of bones, expressions and functions all over the place.
On the other hand Motion Builder just seems to suit the way I think. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I've just seemed to have taken to it.

I'm surprised that Kaydara said that it cannot handle rigs with multiple arms/legs. Although it will not "characterise" (shortcut selecting) extra limbs, IK/FK is very easy to set up for the extra limbs. The extra IK is also very fast because it works on a 2D plane like Messiah, but has elbow/knee pointing for other axis rotating.

One advantage MB has over Messiah is that when the MB file is merged back with your LW scene all the animation is controlled through LW's own bones and not a point level deformation. This allows you to carry on tweaking any bones back in LW.
On the project I'm doing I'm animating the body in MB and leaving all the facial animation for LW using endomorphs and morph mixer. Something I'm not sure your able to do with Messiah (appologies if I'm wrong).

Nemoid
01-12-2004, 05:30 AM
Unfortunately I had not the possibility to afford the MB upgrade, in this period. I agree however that Lw 8 will be quite good for animation and rigging, so that probably there will be no great need for MB. :)

Librarian
01-12-2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Yog
On the project I'm doing I'm animating the body in MB and leaving all the facial animation for LW using endomorphs and morph mixer. Something I'm not sure your able to do with Messiah (appologies if I'm wrong). [/B]
You can use LW endomorphs in Messiah.
I wish the SDK of LW wouldn`t be that limited. You cannot import MB-bonedata in LW without creating the bonessetup in LW before. I hope that`s not a problem in 8 anymore.

Cman
01-12-2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Librarian
You can use LW endomorphs in Messiah.


You can also use LW endomorphs in MB.

Librarian
01-12-2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Cman
You can also use LW endomorphs in MB.
I know. Im a happy MB5 user ;)

Yog
01-12-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Librarian
You can use LW endomorphs in Messiah.
I wish the SDK of LW wouldn`t be that limited. You cannot import MB-bonedata in LW without creating the bonessetup in LW before. I hope that`s not a problem in 8 anymore.

Ah, glad to here it.
I've got the ver 1.57 plug-in, so it looks to be improved since then.
The problem I kept getting was because Messiah 1.57 and Morphmixer were both point level deformations, one would always take presedent over the other.

Glad to hear Messiah Animate now support endomorphs (without having to load in seperate morph objects). I'm surprised they haven't advertised it more, I always thought that was a big limitation of ver.1.57.

Librarian
01-12-2004, 10:56 PM
Endomorph support is new in Version 4.0 and in the latest studio version.