PDA

View Full Version : Electronic LW8 download shelved



Yog
01-08-2004, 03:36 PM
Intresting post on CGTalk.
Looks like the advertised electronic downloads for LW8 might be scrapped.

Considering how much Newtek's servers crash constantly with every point version released to the net, I'm not too surprised. I did wonder how the "all new content" was going to be downloaded by the dial up boys n' gals.

Read more HERE (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114329)

badllarma
01-09-2004, 02:21 AM
It would be nice to here from Newtek about this :rolleyes:

T-Light
01-09-2004, 04:12 AM
Oh :eek:

I had my suspicions that the large file sizes for the videos over christmas we're being used as a test on bandwidth.

Not that I'd object to 8 on cd, it's just how long will we have to wait to recieve them in the UK ?

+ Why would Newtek tell DMG about a change to the advertised deal before telling their own customers ?

Mylenium
01-09-2004, 04:37 AM
I think this is a wise move. The transfer via Internet possibly would have cost NT more than it would have been worth. Personally I would also have ordered a CD even with the download option - it's just nice to have something like that around and marvel at it lying on your shelve (along with the new and colorful printed manuals, I hope) plus I would need to swap my parralel dongle to an USB one anyway.

Mylenium

archiea
01-09-2004, 04:41 AM
I'm a bit peeved.. it states that LW 8 is in beta officially now.. I thought that was the case back in early dec.. I mean beta testing can go on indefinitly. When they said "finishing touches" I didn't read that as just now getting into beta testing officially....

Alot of language abuse here...

Well, its ready when its ready... Like I stated before, Ill wait as long as it takes for 8, but I need 7,5 on the mac panther fixed....

js33
01-09-2004, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by archiea
Well, its ready when its ready... Like I stated before, Ill wait as long as it takes for 8, but I need 7,5 on the mac panther fixed....

You are a much more patient man than I if you can wait for 8 or a Panther bug fix to start working again.

Come on 8.
We can't Wai8.

Why soooo La8.

No more Specula8.

Let us have 8.

So we can Apprecia8.

That Lightwave is Grea8.


Hehehe
Ok you can make up your own now.

Cheers,
JS

Lightwolf
01-09-2004, 05:25 AM
I wonder why they don't uses P2P technology to offload theirs servers and use the community to share some of the load. Bittorrent for example would be a very good choice imho... Cross platform, free, easy to set up.

Cheers,
Mike

Librarian
01-09-2004, 05:33 AM
Wise decision?
I`m not interested in *#$$ Szenes or Objects. I want LW8 and I want it in time.
Only on CD means they delay the release date again, for cd packaging :mad:
A tactic to give em more time ?
Why not let the customers decide?
Nobody is forced to download, wait for CDs instead.
But it`s a nice option. Especially for fast delivery after the longest .5/half major update ever :mad:
Not enough bandwith would be a lame excuse
What`s the next 'surprise' ? :rolleyes:

sadkkf
01-09-2004, 08:08 AM
Wow. It's as if no one has ever worked on a project that ran longer than expected. :rolleyes:

I for one prefer receiving software that has been tested and de-bugged as much as possible. I'm tired of being Microsoft's unwilling beta tester.

Download or CD...I prefer a d/l, but they _are_ shipping it for free. In a year we won't care whether or not it was a month or two late anyway.

Sorry for the rant.

jr_sunshine
01-09-2004, 08:45 AM
sadkkf,

Did you pre-purchase the [8] upgrade or are you waiting to purchase?

Alan Daniels
01-09-2004, 09:26 AM
Can I just say here how hilarious the "mad face" icon is? I crack up every time I see it.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Not that I'm mad about anything at the moment, or am making fun of anything in this thread, but just had to say how much I love that icon. Sorry to waste bandwidth.

Chuck
01-09-2004, 09:46 AM
KeyFrame magazine was informing customers who purchased directly from them of the expected procedure for customers who have purchased from a reseller rather than directly from NewTek. That may be subject to change, but this was our best idea of how things will need to work at the time we informed KeyFrame and other resellers.

While we can definitely identify the customers who purchased directly from us who are eligible for the upgrade, that isn't necessarily the case with folks who purchased through a reseller, especially if they were 7.5 users purchasing the DFX+ with 8 upgrade option - they have not had to register anything with us subsequent to their purchase. We're certainly going to do everything we can to make this as convenient and automatic for the customer as possible, but there are some folks eligible for the upgrade who would not show up in data from either the sales invoice database or the registration database. The procedure we mentioned to resellers is the way we expect we can locate those folks who would be missed using the data we have at NewTek.

jr_sunshine
01-09-2004, 10:01 AM
Chuck,

So, are you saying the Download is still a "GO" for people who do show up in your registration and invoice databases?

Are you saying the donwload is most likely NOT A GO for people who bought through a 3rd party and do not show up in your registration and invoice databases?

I realize NewTek did not make the statement about NO DOWNLOAD, and it was made on another forum by a 3rd part, but there is just a lot of confusion felt on the customer side.

Thanks,

Chuck
01-09-2004, 10:41 AM
The current plan is to send out CDs rather than to try to provide the update by download. Size is one consideration, even just given the program files involved.

TyVole
01-09-2004, 11:21 AM
Just curious -- I purchased the upgrade through Keyframe -- when the upgrade is available, how will you know I'm eligible? I assume I'll have to get a new license key directly through you after I receive the CD.

Why not let us (those who ordered through third parties) register our new 7.5 serial numbers? Then, you would at least know we exist.

badllarma
01-09-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by TyVole

Why not let us (those who ordered through third parties) register our new 7.5 serial numbers? Then, you would at least know we exist.
I did this as soon as I recieved my DFX bundle that also was sent a copy of Lightwave 7.5 with a new serial I contacted Newtek Europe and asked them what I should do and whether I need to register the new serial with them? They took the details of the new serial from me, even though it's not the version I'm actually running on my PC with my dongle.

mkiii
01-09-2004, 11:58 AM
So will European 8-waiters need to contact Newtek Europe, Their Re-seller, Newtek-USA, or just sit back & wait - assuming they have registered their upgrade?

T-Light
01-09-2004, 12:48 PM
Hello Chuck,

How do we know if you have the information? Would it be possible for any of us to write privately with registration details?

The reason I ask, is I registered my copy of 7.5 with Newtek Europe, but to upgrade to 8.0 with the DFX bundle Onevideo also required the box serial number to validate the original purchase.
As far as I remember, Onevideo were ordering directly from the states, and the offer was stated at the time as 'Download only'.

Is this the kind of information you have on file, and if not, where would European users go from here?

Cheers :)

JDaniel
01-09-2004, 01:48 PM
The program is too large to send by itself w/ out the extra contents? I figured you could d-load the upgrade 8 file and wait for the cd's in the mail. Oh well. I'm patient. :eek: :p

kevinmcpoland
01-09-2004, 03:13 PM
Chuck,

You said "...The current plan is to send out CDs rather than to try to provide the update by download. Size is one consideration, even just given the program files involved...."

Are any of the other considerations you don't mention being given to us overseas customers regarding the quite often appalling delays in the world wide postal system in actually getting stuff delivered?

Along with even the most patient users of these postings it is getting a bit tedious now that every time a NewTek entry is made in one shape or another it amounts to "a further delay".

Yes, it can be asked that what's a few more days added to the already long wait? If only it were a few more days! When we start reading all the posts from "nearby" users about how great the program is, we overseas users (even just in the UK) could well be getting quite frustrated coming home everyday to find the postman still hasn't delivered the mail (I personally have experienced delays of up to 6 weeks myself when getting stuff from overseas, which is nothing compared to others I know!!)

So please, before you decide that there will be no downloads for definite, consider your international community that will be punished even more from the postal delays...

Thanks,

Kevin McPoland
[email protected]

Original1
01-09-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by T-Light
Hello Chuck,

How do we know if you have the information? Would it be possible for any of us to write privately with registration details?

The reason I ask, is I registered my copy of 7.5 with Newtek Europe, but to upgrade to 8.0 with the DFX bundle Onevideo also required the box serial number to validate the original purchase.
As far as I remember, Onevideo were ordering directly from the states, and the offer was stated at the time as 'Download only'.

Is this the kind of information you have on file, and if not, where would European users go from here?

Cheers :)

In my exprience One Video normally deal with Newtek Europe and are very good at getting stuff out to there Customers as soon as Newtek Europe has it. It will be delivered to you as a general rule.

I would like to see both the manual amd the CD's since I consider I paid for a full upgrade I already had Lightwave 7.5 and paid for the LW 8.0 upgrade in advance.

Clarity would be good

mkiii
01-09-2004, 05:27 PM
They can just send me a LW8 Manual *cover*.

I can glue it over my LW7 manual myself. It'll save an awful lot of weight, and will still look good perched precariously on top of my monitor along with the original empty box, 2 plastic model aircraft kits, a spare keyboard & that book on m*^a - cough!

Yes I loves mah clutter ;)

Librarian
01-09-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by kevinmcpoland
Chuck,
So please, before you decide that there will be no downloads for definite, consider your international community that will be punished even more from the postal delays...

Well said Kevin. Most likely it`will be a bigger problem with the physical delivery, especially for european customers as Kevinmcpoland already mentioned.
It`s just a lame excuse to say that some user can`t handle the huge file size. Most users have broadband. I`ve downloaded files with more than 500MB in best time. Hey, the LW8 demo vids are more than 500MB together. No probs downloading them.
If users don`t have the capabilities for a download, well then they must go for the CD. It`s just that easy.
Either Newtek`s servers can`t handle the traffic or they just want to gain time. Laying the blame on the customers bandwith is just lame.
The problem is that Newtek makes statements and breaks them
ad libitum. Bad management. They should do better planning before making any statements. And I didn`t refer to the delay, that`s normal.
To make it clear, this is in no way a personal attack against any person at Newtek.

colkai
01-10-2004, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by mkiii
Yes I loves mah clutter ;)

Ahh yes - clutter == good, tidy == bad ;)

My room is just a total mess of all things from swords, guns, guitars, amps, computer, bed, cd's and books - stack of LW books, I jest not, my bookcase shelves are bowing under their weight. One reason I may not get the [8] manual, I'm not sure the floorboards could take it! :p

I really must do some work now..no, really....anytime now...I mean it....just you wait and see...

mkiii
01-10-2004, 05:29 AM
Your room sounds identical to mine Colkai - including the guns ;)
Air guns only of course. I share the computer room with my son and his PC too, so you can just imagine the mayhem ;)

Chuck
01-10-2004, 07:56 AM
We will most certainly be taking all of the logistical issues into account in order to make sure that everyone eligible for the free upgrade receives it, and receives it in timely fashion. We will post all of the details and procedures to all of our resellers and international distributors and to the public at the time we are ready to commence shipping. At the time we release the procedures, we'll answer any questions customers may have regarding the procedures.

archiea
01-10-2004, 09:04 AM
I think the frustration for some here, chuck, is the amount of back pedalling going on. Part of the sales pitch for 8 presales was an electronic download (a convenience for some) and the confidence of the release date. The release date was pushed down, and thats been argued to death. But now, the convenience for some of an electronic DL is being withdrawn. So from the standpoint of the customer, we can't rely on what NT says, or even press releases....

I mean, what are we to expect of the press release regarding the roadmap for LW mac? You have to consider what the recent changes have done to NT's credibility. The transition to Xcode may be as big an undertaking as a version release. However, judging from the current track record, what is the customer supposed to think.....

In NT's defense, it has been long stated that the manual hardcopy would be additional cost, at that it would be possibly sold at cost, i.e. no profit gouging. Considering the transition of many to an online manual database (From Apple themselves with OS-X to Adobe) I can understand that thinking. In fact, it may benefit us to have the manuals avallable at a cost separately. This way NT can not skip on quality to try to include it in the purchase. I would pay extra for a bound-ready manual (the actual binder need not be included or the holes) thats in color. Considering the effort that william has put into it, why butcher it. Besides, the whole binder thing worked beautifuly during the Amiga days with the addedums.

Now having it in color... I mean.. need I to justify that? have a look at the "art of Maya" book that alias put out... best advertising.. except its one that the customer pays for!!! never underestimate the power of Gloss. take a "page" out of Steve Job's book with the iPud-mini... Yeah everybody is moaning ragarding the price.. you know why? because they want one. They wouldn't care if they didn't.... There's no harm in throwing a little coffee table book appeal into the manual..... Besides it would be the only LW book in color...how's that for bragging rights? :D

As far as the original point, I've stated before, LW's 8 release should hinge on when NT deems it finished... and kudos to that.. Just never let a fiasco like 7.5c on panther happen again, even at the expense of new release.

In general, my opinion is that NT should charge for a x.5 release. Period. The folks here would flame me for it, but who cares. Using free x.5 releases as a sales tool is dangerously like Hash, and both LW and its customers deserve better. For LW to stay a profession product... a transition perceived by many from 5.6 to 6.0, it takes money. If paying for 8.5 insures a relatively smooth transition to Xcode and an accurate release for 8.5, then its worth it... No amount of "free" x.5 releases is worth what we have gone through this past year. If it takes money to fix, I'm willing to pay. The fanboys here can all get night jobs for all I care or buy Hash. Besides, waiting 5 months from a pre-release sale to actually delivery... we might was well have paid for 7.5 and at least have had something in our hads for it and NT funded for 8.0, or 7.5b and c for that matter... And don;t even bring this up in a poll, because of course everybody is going to vote for a free x.5 release.... its like asking children for their permission to take them to the dentist....

I say all of this out of tough love, and hopefully even just once voice from the trenches might be heard.....

And change that interface for the love of all creatures!!! :rolleyes:

jevinstudios
01-10-2004, 10:33 AM
I, for one, prefer the CD to an electronic download, and appreciate NT offering this as an alternative. Thanks, NT -- and thanks for the DFX+, too -- my software is on the way and will arrive next week -- can't wait to get it installed and play (the DFX+, that is....). Although my studio already has LW7.5, I ordered it as an upgrade in order to receive the DFX bundle and LW 8 when it ships -- didn't want to pass up on this excellent deal. Too cool!!!!!

Original1
01-10-2004, 10:42 AM
Archiea,

I think you are barking, stark staring mad.

One of my main reasons for staying loyal to Newtek is their policy on point releases.

I would also suspect that the port to OSX has probably been in hand for quite some period of time. It is not as big a job as you make out, once the code is finalised.

Software companies get it wrong even Apple with their disasterous release 10.2.8

Newtek has lost no credibilty at all by waiting until LW 8.0 is stable and finished

I would trust Chuck Baker and the rest of the Newtek Team over any other software company I have ever dealt with, they have always tried to give value for money, good service and great tools.

I might like to see a Coffee Table style book, think about the Corel Draw Art competition books. (thats a hint William)
With a DVD of Animations, scenes and models Hmm might be a market for such a book.

Original1
01-10-2004, 10:46 AM
Archiea,

I think you are barking, stark staring mad.( I don't mean that in an offensive way, I just think you are a little off base).

There were users that argued Lightwave was too cheap to be taken seriously so Newtek put the price up and I think it might have cost them some market share.

One of my main reasons for staying loyal to Newtek is their policy on point releases. They enable the development path to be more flexible, and means we get bux fixes quicker.

I would also suspect that the port to OSX has probably been in hand for quite some period of time. If you remeber it was announced at one point that no further patches would be released for the Mac version. It is not as big a job as you make out, once the code is finalised.

Software companies get it wrong even Apple with their disasterous release 10.2.8 upgrade. Lots of other stuff has had issues and teething trobles with OSX is still evolving as an OS

Newtek has lost no credibilty at all by waiting until LW 8.0 is stable and finished.

I would trust Chuck Baker and the rest of the Newtek Team over any other software company I have ever dealt with, they have always tried to give value for money, good service and great tools.

I might like to see a Coffee Table style book, think about the Corel Draw Art competition books. (thats a hint William)
With a DVD of Animations, scenes and models Hmm might be a market for such a book.

archiea
01-10-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Original1
Archiea,

I think you are barking, stark staring mad.



I've been called worse....


Originally posted by Original1



One of my main reasons for staying loyal to Newtek is their policy on point releases.



My point excactly. But then you get what you pay for.. at least us mac people have. Its clear that NT didn't have the resourses at the time to properly maintain the mac version. That is a service I would pay for if its financial resourses that is the problem... i.e enough beta testers, enough lead in time of an OS release, overlapping development etc.. whatever the reason is.. and that stuff costs money.

What is mad is going to mac world and selling LW 7.5 to unsuspecting mac users that the only current version of the OS isn't fully supported.

I don't think I can stay "loyal" to a company with this current track record.

And really, seeing prerelease advertising for like 6 months is a bit of a joke and it would hurt anybody's credibility.. it did with Discreet and combustion 3 for the mac.

Lets be frank. How many people here have complained about NT's toolset being up to date, that its two years behind, and how there's been no update to modeler in 8.0. Thats all I've been hearing from users here. Well development takes money. Perhaps you are happy with the state and pace of LW's development, Original1. Thats fine. Some people are not and are willing to pay for it..... So perhaps you'll update only after each version release instead of a x.5 release. That option is yours.

How does wanting to improve LW's development and NT's ability to meet schedules in anyway mad?

Adobe charges for x.5 release of photoshop, some of which have been minimal, but they are on time, consistant, and I have the option of not updating. In fact thay have offered intermittent feature releases (like the raw update) between major releases to address demand of features. Granted you had to pay for them if you wanted them, but at least they were available..

It was a similar situation w/ LW hypervoxels.. I believe at $300 at the time.



Originally posted by Original1


I would also suspect that the port to OSX has probably been in hand for quite some period of time. It is not as big a job as you make out, once the code is finalised.



You suspect, but you don't know for sure do you? Again, this is my point... you get what you pay for... You seem fine with paying as little as possible for alot of uncertaintly. I'm saying that I will pay for far more certainty. Again, this isn't an issue as to whether NT's or chuck's heart is in it.. I'm certain... its really about their ability to execute.


Originally posted by Original1


Software companies get it wrong even Apple with their disasterous release 10.2.8



Thats true, i can't debate you there. But didn't apple issue an update to fix 10.2.8? Where's NT's update for 7.5c? Thats what I mean about having enough resourses.. I had to pay for 10.3 release of mac OS.. and an 10.2 and a 10.1...thats not even an X.5. The trade off is the timely manner that apple had addressed their patch problems. I'm just saying that I will pay for the X.5 releases if I'm spared the chain of incidents that have plaged LW, in particular the mac releases....

One may not talk of Apple's value for their charging of each x.1 OS release or their high margins on their hardware. But you get what you pay for there as well...


Originally posted by Original1


Newtek has lost no credibilty at all by waiting until LW 8.0 is stable and finished



That is an issue of personal opinion for some. After 7.5b, 7.5c/panther, the emailing of the 72 days and then the delay, and now the withdrawl of the electronic DL, you would have to be an idiot to not at least acknowlege that its bad PR.

In the end, as an unsatisfied users, i was letting the company know what I would be willing to do to ensure better service... and one thing is paid X.5 updates


Originally posted by Original1

I would trust Chuck Baker and the rest of the Newtek Team over any other software company I have ever dealt with, they have always tried to give value for money, good service and great tools.



key word is "tried"... I'm shooting for "succeed". and how can additional funding hurt that unless that funding is mis-managed...

Like I said... $500 for each point release, after they lost their development team, you get what you pay for... I know I did with my free 7.5.. so i guess I shouldn't complain since it was for free. See how that works?




Originally posted by Original1


I might like to see a Coffee Table style book, think about the Corel Draw Art competition books. (thats a hint William)
With a DVD of Animations, scenes and models Hmm might be a market for such a book.

Look at the material that Alias puts out for Maya... the training DVD for their discovery version... you have to pay $20 for it but its worth it...

sadkkf
01-10-2004, 04:55 PM
Did you pre-purchase the [8] upgrade or are you waiting to purchase?

Jr sunsine--

I purchased my upgrade right after SIGGRAPH and am as eager to receive it as pretty much everyone. My problem is I never have enough time, so I'd rather have new software installs be as bug-free as possible. :)

Original1
01-11-2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by archiea

Thats true, i can't debate you there. But didn't apple issue an update to fix 10.2.8?


No not exactly, they pulled it and then released Panther

Look I think we are on the same side we both want to see a version of Lightwave that works well on the Mac. The Duo Dongle Version sprang from a feature request I submitted whilst I was doing contract work, for freelancers like myself it made sense to be able to port my licence with me and use it on my Mac when I am traveling, It probalably made sence to Newtek since it gave them some economies.

At the time when I made that request, the future of the Mac was in doubt, and some developers were talking about abandoning the Mac as a platform.

Newtek have always responded to their user base, I am not sure that we(collectively as a user base) have always spoken clearly.

I don't entirely agree that the Lightwave toolset is 2 years behind. 3D Max is only just playing catch up in the area of HDRI and a few other areas.

Comparing Lightwave to Maya is another issue. The old arguement as to wether the two applications should be intergrated is one on which I have reservations, some people would say its a major fault of both Maya and MaX.

It is interesting how many modellers I know that who prefer Modeler to anything else. I for one do not want Newtek to rest on their laurels, but I do think a survey of the whole user base on what they want from Lightwave 8.5 or LW 9.0 might be useful.

Most of the debate to date has been non specific on how they think Lightwave Modeler could be improved, if Modeler has not moved forward it may also have been due to a lack of feedback and feature requests, then Newtek also has to balance whether the change requests are coming from a vocal minority, or wether such changes will benfit the whole user base. Thats a very difficult judgement Call

The grave danger with what you are proposing is that Newtek could end up pissing off the whole user base simply by trying to please a few "professionals" who don't pay for thier tools.

I don't know how much of their purchasing comes from people like you and me who can afford to pay for every upgrade, and how much comes from hobbyists who want the price point on upgrades to stay low.

Taking something like Photoshop as an example, I have not upgraded since version 5 since I got fed up of paying through the nose for very minor improvements in the feature list, but then ever graphic dept in the world uses Photoshop, so they will just upgrade automatically since its company money they are spending. I tend to use Fireworks and Freehand instead since I have to upgrade my copy of Macromedia Studio to keep Flash up to Date.

Newtek however do not have that kind of market share to adopt that level of arrogance.

Incidently I brought Hypervoxels at $300 only for it to be included in the next upgrade. Thats Life sometimes

I am a Multimedia Software Engineer mostly using Flash and Director programming in Actionscript and Lingo, I design CD-ROMs, Web Sites for Useability and I have to do some 3D stuff as well. I do contract work which means I have to use what I am given on site,sometimes its Max,sometimes I can do it quicker in LW. I find 3D MAX to be one of the most awkward programs I am forced to use, what would make me drop it MAX forever better Shockwave Export.

Chuck
01-11-2004, 07:20 AM
Archiea, our ability to execute is just fine, and contrary to your spin that is what our track record shows and will continue to show. Considering the situation of the last couple of years I think we've managed to negotiate the shoals pretty well.

Original1
01-11-2004, 07:37 AM
Hey Chuck,

Is that an early Sunday, or a Late Saturday youre working?

BTW my wife was watching a show about Texas on UK TV.
wants to emigrate to Texas, got any Jobs going?;)

Chuck
01-11-2004, 08:21 AM
Early Sunday - :)

Jobs here at NewTek, or jobs in general?

js33
01-11-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Original1
Hey Chuck,

Is that an early Sunday, or a Late Saturday youre working?

BTW my wife was watching a show about Texas on UK TV.
wants to emigrate to Texas, got any Jobs going?;)

There are plenty of jobs in Texas for someone with your skills.
There are lots of corporations that need CD-Roms made with Director or Web sites done with Flash. Or even animations done with Lightwave which is mainly what I do.

I have also done Director/Flash CDs and websites as well.

As far as jobs at Newtek I have no idea. Check their job postings on the site.

Cheers,
JS

lwaddict
01-12-2004, 08:59 AM
WOW,

I've been gone awhile...busy...but DAMN.
What a mess.

However, it looks like the usual for any software company.

I just hope the end users here realize that you aren't dealing with just ANY software company.

Thank you Newtek.
Your software got me a house, a sports car, a gigantic SUV, and more toys than any man could ask for.
Oh yeah, I've been using LW since version 5 and have been around for several upgrades and new releases.

Someone mentioned on this thread though,
that Newtek may have lost some market share due to raising
of the price???
I can't entirely go with that one, I mean really.
I've been on three boards today and have never seen so many
people whining about their software, with regards to Newtek and the latest unreleased version, EVER.
Based on the mobs forming, I'd have to say Newtek's doing fine.

Hang in there Chuck.:cool:

sadkkf
01-12-2004, 11:21 AM
You said it, lwaddict!

archiea
01-13-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Original1
No not exactly, they pulled it and then released Panther



If you mean the ethernet problem for some G4 users in the first 10.2.8, yes, there was another 10.2.8 release that corrected that problem. Then 10.3 was released. When the a security patch was released for 10.3, one was also released for jaguar users.


Originally posted by Original1

Look I think we are on the same side we both want to see a version of Lightwave that works well on the Mac. The Duo Dongle Version sprang from a feature request I submitted whilst I was doing contract work, for freelancers like myself it made sense to be able to port my licence with me and use it on my Mac when I am traveling, It probalably made sence to Newtek since it gave them some economies.

At the time when I made that request, the future of the Mac was in doubt, and some developers were talking about abandoning the Mac as a platform.

Newtek have always responded to their user base, I am not sure that we(collectively as a user base) have always spoken clearly.



My debate was never of NT's desire to help, support, and serve the Lw community. My debate was its ability to do so to the satisfaction of some. in particular 7.5c mac people. Know what I mean, Jelly bean?




Originally posted by Original1


I don't entirely agree that the Lightwave toolset is 2 years behind. 3D Max is only just playing catch up in the area of HDRI and a few other areas.



I was parapherazing a common criticism of some users here to fuel the point that at least to some users, the pace of development. This, in turn, was to support my argument of paying for x.5 releases.

Personally, saying that LW is 2 years off is inaccurate. Improvements for max was fueled by mental ray's development, which in turn, is now supported by maya, offering maya users another option besides renderman or maya's renderer.

Then there are the third party renderer's for max that can be compared to Worley... So like I said, the amount of years is not accurate. its the perception that there were users unhappy with the current pace of development for LW.


Originally posted by Original1


Comparing Lightwave to Maya is another issue. The old arguement as to wether the two applications should be intergrated is one on which I have reservations, some people would say its a major fault of both Maya and MaX.



It is interesting how many modellers I know that who prefer Modeler to anything else. I for one do not want Newtek to rest on their laurels, but I do think a survey of the whole user base on what they want from Lightwave 8.5 or LW 9.0 might be useful.



Whoa, buddy, you're drifting here.. points noted, but you are talking about "where" LW's development should go when I was discussing the pace and the ability to mantain support.


Originally posted by Original1


Most of the debate to date has been non specific on how they think Lightwave Modeler could be improved, if Modeler has not moved forward it may also have been due to a lack of feedback and feature requests, then Newtek also has to balance whether the change requests are coming from a vocal minority, or wether such changes will benfit the whole user base. Thats a very difficult judgement Call



there have been specific feature request for modeler here and elsewhere, but yes there has been a low S/N ratio to the feedback


Originally posted by Original1



The grave danger with what you are proposing is that Newtek could end up pissing off the whole user base simply by trying to please a few "professionals" who don't pay for thier tools.

I don't know how much of their purchasing comes from people like you and me who can afford to pay for every upgrade, and how much comes from hobbyists who want the price point on upgrades to stay low.

Taking something like Photoshop as an example, I have not upgraded since version 5 since I got fed up of paying through the nose for very minor improvements in the feature list, but then ever graphic dept in the world uses Photoshop, so they will just upgrade automatically since its company money they are spending. I tend to use Fireworks and Freehand instead since I have to upgrade my copy of Macromedia Studio to keep Flash up to Date.



Well, piss off in that they can't afford the upgrade? The point is not to make it more expensive to upgrade to LW, but to make it more frequent. Hobbyist may not be able to afford the x.5 release, so they'll wait until the next full version. the point being that us professions won't HAVE to wait.

You provided the best example, original1. You didn't feel the need, and/or the value, to update beyond Photoshop 5.0. Perhaps Photoshop CS will convince you, or perhaps Photoshop 10. Nonetheless, you have the option. Some needed the new workflow or new features, so they bought it. You see, by having more revisions, you satisfy the professional userbase, while offering the option of the folks like yourself to upgrade when they want to.

You know how much its going to cost you to Upgrade Photoshop 5.0 to photoshop CS (8)? the same amount of maney that it cost a photoshop 7 user, $169.

You know how much it costs a LW4x/5x/6x/7x to get 8.0? The same price.

Assuming that Nt maintains this generous upograd policy, missing an update doesn;t penolize you for missing it. In fact it supports what you stated about the hobbyist, If they can't afford 8.5, then they can wait and get 9.0. My argument is that buy charging for the 8.5 release it would speed up development for people who need cutting edge features, but with an upgrade policy (that is currently in place) that doesn't penolize a hobbyist for missing a version.




Originally posted by Original1


Newtek however do not have that kind of market share to adopt that level of arrogance.



I don't call what Adobe does as arrogance.. its not like they force you to upgrade, especially with their upgrade policy allowing PS4.0 users to get CS at the same price as PS7.0 users. its considerate of graphic professionals who want timely updates and patches.

As far as NT having the market share, lets be honest, neither you or myself can comment about that, as neither of us have final figures on our laps. However, all I hear in advertisement is LW's wide instalation base.. in fact it was the slogun for LW 7: Its everywhere... ;D





Originally posted by Original1


Incidently I brought Hypervoxels at $300 only for it to be included in the next upgrade. Thats Life sometimes



So did I. thats not life. thats called getting hypervoxels before it was available . You paid for that progress, you had a choice, youweren;t forced. I paid $100 for PS's RAW support for dig cameras after 7.0 only to have it included in CS... a year later.... I have no regrets, as I spent that year organizing photos. I don;t understand why someone takes this as an insult.

If NT released SSS as a stand alone feature addition to LW in April 2004, instead of making us wait until april 2005 to include it in LW vX.X, would that insult you? if you don;t need SSS, then don;t get it then.. wait for it to be included in the next release.


Originally posted by Original1


I am a Multimedia Software Engineer mostly using Flash and Director programming in Actionscript and Lingo, I design CD-ROMs, Web Sites for Useability and I have to do some 3D stuff as well. I do contract work which means I have to use what I am given on site,sometimes its Max,sometimes I can do it quicker in LW. I find 3D MAX to be one of the most awkward programs I am forced to use, what would make me drop it MAX forever better Shockwave Export.


Some Max users can;t get used to LW destructive modler or its "clunky" interface, as one max user put it.. that argument works both wasy....

archiea
01-13-2004, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Archiea, our ability to execute is just fine, and contrary to your spin that is what our track record shows and will continue to show. Considering the situation of the last couple of years I think we've managed to negotiate the shoals pretty well.

Chuck, if you mean by spin that i'm interpreting something with the desire to sway people here, lets consider the facts...

Specifically I was talking about the mac issues...

Generally, I was refering to the statements of posters here and in CGtalk in regards to what features they wanted, how it related to whats available today in the market.

Specifically with the mac, 7.5b was an inconveinience, 7.5c w/ panther is unnacceptable. Ask yourself the reasons for the 7.5c debacle, then tell me if what I'm stating is spin.

yes, considering the situations of the past couple of years, 8.0 is quite a miracle. Because in addition to the NT specific situations, the market unmercifully became more competative with competators bringing prices down and offering substantial training both via PLE or through aggressive dominance in both schools and the professional markets.

Chuck, the reason I brought paying for x.5 releases was to offer a constructive opinion of the current Lw situation and speculate how it would help in the future.

Richard Bailey
01-19-2004, 10:38 AM
Hi guys - please refer to our forum for more info (www.onevideo.co.uk/forum (http://www.onevideo.co.uk/forum) ), but, in short I would just like to assure all OneVideo customers of our up-most attention at all time.

OneVideo's prime concern is customer support, and as such all eligible customers will receive all upgrades free of charge.


Originally posted by Original1
In my exprience One Video normally deal with Newtek Europe and are very good at getting stuff out to there Customers as soon as Newtek Europe has it. It will be delivered to you as a general rule.



Rich


www.onanimation.net (http://www.oneanimation.net)

http://www.onevideo.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=196&PN=1&TPN=1

cresshead
01-19-2004, 11:06 AM
could it be that there's a huge french userbase here?
there's so much "wining" going on and so much sour grapes!

..note nice to here from onevideo on the subject of upgrades etc...

cheers chaps..and chapesses!