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View Full Version : [Expletive deleted]..No more about the interface, OK????



archiea
01-06-2004, 08:36 PM
Ok, one last thing....

Nt posted an "Apples to Apples" comparison on their preview page.. kudos to that...


http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/screenshots.html

While high rez to high rez looks better, I stil say that the outlines are too dark and contrasty....

Ok, flame on.... :cool:

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 09:47 PM
lol... I'm done arguing this one.

:)

archiea
01-06-2004, 11:43 PM
but.. but... but....

JR your argument was that I had phrased it as if it crippled the software, when it was solely regarding the interface from a design standpoint....

Karmacop
01-06-2004, 11:43 PM
I think this interface is looking better than their previous LW8 look. :)

Tim Parsons
01-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Just a couple of things in regards to these comparison screen shots. First off, I've read with great interest all the comments and opinions about the look of the interface, and while I must say I would prefer a more "artsy" look, I think LW 8's interface looks very usable. But enough of that and on to the points or observations I would like to make. In the last year I have trained a number of employees in our marketing department on the use of LW 7.5, and one observation I made was that most of them struggled with "Making". So the inclusion of a "Make" button is real nice addition. I know this seems like something trivial, but for beginners just starting, this will be a welcome addition. Also the inclusion of "Numeric", "Statistics", "Info", and "Surface" buttons on the bottom panel are such great ideas you kind of wonder why it hasn't been done sooner. However I am totally blown away by the absence of "Cut", "Copy", "Paste", "Undo" and "Redo". Granted x,c,v are common Windows shortcuts, but my students moused everything! (I even provided them with an exhaustive list of keyboard short cuts during the class and stressed the importance of getting to know them.) Now hopefully this is something that the user can easily add to the interface, and this may not be a default interface. However I would hate to see these great, albeit simple, modifications to the LW8 interface at the expense of equally important buttons. Again, probably most of the users cruising these forums would never miss the "Cut", "Copy", "Paste", "Undo" and "Redo" buttons. But after working with LW for many years and then training newbie's, it kind of puts a little perspective on the whole thing. It looks like Newtek has done a great job cleaning up the left side of the interface - lets just hope the other tabs get the same orderly treatment. The omission of the "Volume" select button is another good thing. While I am sure this selection option (I hope) is still a part of Modeler, getting it off the main interface is a good thing. My students many times dropped a tool only to find they were in "Volume" select mode and thought they were now making another object of some sort. (Don't laugh!) Speaking of which, NT should add a "Drop" button. I know some of this might seem ridiculous, but these students were Photoshop, AI, Freehand and even Autodesk Inventor users. - Just a side note - they are doing real well with LW and think it's totally cool. They commented on numerous occasions how they thought the interface was well laid out and they all loved the fact that they did not need to be an Egyptologist to know what they were clicking on. ( Believe me they clicked on everything - I didn't even know where some of the buttons were.) On a side note while on the subject of icons, it would be nice to have small clickable icons on the window bars for Wireframe, Texture, Weightmap etc. views. While for the most part I despise icons, a few well placed icons may work better then a drop down button. I know I've been rambling on, but I go to these forums everyday to read all this interesting chit chat, learn and admire all the great artwork, I just thought I needed to add something myself. One final annoying little thing, why can't NT color code the X,Y,Z and H,P,B numeric in the lower left hand corner of layout? This seems like such a no-brainer. For newbie's and myself!!!! This would be very helpful. I've been using LW for 6 years and still find myself stopping and thinking about which one I need to adjust etc. Anyway I've had my rant for the year, I'm sure I'll have another just prior the release of LW 9 asking for color coded H,P,B numeric in layout. Looking forward to LW8.


Talk to ya next year, but in the mean time keep me entertained.

takkun
01-07-2004, 12:52 AM
Tim, they did color code the HPB XYZ buttons but I just watched Proton's preview videos and it looks like they aren't anymore. :(

And about copy, cut and paste. I think I noticed in a video or screenshot somewhere that Undo is now Ctrl-z (like most every program out there), maybe that means that they also standardized cut copy and paste. If that's the case then I think most students will know how to use cut copy paste without having buttons for them. Personally, I never used those buttons so it's good that they are replaced with more useful ones.

And Newtek, great job organizing the buttons. Primitives, Text, Points, Polygons, and Curves makes a lot more sense then just Objects and Elements.

Matt
01-07-2004, 04:16 AM
if you don't want to hear anymore about the interface why start another thread? ;)

- - -

re: screenshots

the button text is _still_ 1 pixel too high! :)

Karmacop
01-07-2004, 04:31 AM
takkun, the coloured xyz are still there, btu they only show when the channels are locked! It seems a bit useless, I wish it'd be coloured if it was locked or unlocked.

And yeah, I wish cut, copy, paste, redo and undo where still there, I use them all the time ... :(

archiea
01-07-2004, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Matt
if you don't want to hear anymore about the interface why start another thread? ;)

- - -

re: screenshots

the button text is _still_ 1 pixel too high! :)

Well the thread title is kinda like me flaming myself... get it?

Matt
01-07-2004, 07:15 AM
ahhh irony, sorry I thought you were being serious! :rolleyes:

Proj
01-07-2004, 08:43 AM
I hope Newtek are going sort out the offcentre text on the side buttons. Its not proffesional, if I did that for a client they would send it back. Sort it please.
Otherwise I love the interface and Lightwave rocks.Thanks Newtek

Psyhke
01-07-2004, 09:15 AM
So, what's with that sickly pale looking yellowish/greenish button color prominent on the modeler screenshot? I can't understand that one. It's funny how certain things stand out to different people, though...

(P.S. ultimately I don't care about the look like I do functionality, but this is (another) interface thread right? :) )

Matt
01-07-2004, 10:08 AM
Why not have both?

Imagine if Apples 'Panther' worked in exactly the same way but looked like the Windows 'Luna' interface!!!!

Apple software is a good example of what you can do if you make it work how you want, not making it work with what you have.

I'd love to see is the same amount of care, attention to detail, thoughtfulness going into LightWave that Apple has done with its 'i' suite of products.

Imagine, if Apple designed LightWaves interface!!!! :)

TSpyrison
01-07-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Matt
Imagine, if Apple designed LightWaves interface!!!! :)

Then we'd all have to go out and buy a new mouse with only one button

:D:D

Alan Daniels
01-07-2004, 11:39 AM
I wish that they'd take the "modes" drop-down button in Modeler, and rather than having it just say "modes", have it tell me the mode I'm currently in, such as "Mode: Mouse", "Mode: Origin", etc. There's lots of times I have to click on that button just to see what it's set to, since I can't remember what I had it set to last.

Wonderful Newtek guys, can you add this one little feature, please please please? :D It would make my modeling much easier.

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by TSpyrison
Then we'd all have to go out and buy a new mouse with only one button

:D:D

That, and don't we fight for screen real estate as it is without having to fight with a big blue apple?

I'd be more worried about that as you can use a multi-button mouse on the mac.

comanche
01-07-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Alan Daniels
I wish that they'd take the "modes" drop-down button in Modeler, and rather than having it just say "modes", have it tell me the mode I'm currently in, such as "Mode: Mouse", "Mode: Origin", etc. There's lots of times I have to click on that button just to see what it's set to, since I can't remember what I had it set to last.

Wonderful Newtek guys, can you add this one little feature, please please please? :D It would make my modeling much easier.

Why don't you change your menu layout to something like this:

http://www.calmbach.com/lw/bottom_edge.gif

Tim Parsons
01-07-2004, 06:30 PM
takkun Karmacop

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this would be a good thing. I understand that they probably don't want to gaudy up the interface with lots of colors etc., but all NT would need to do is have the text in the appropriate color.

takkun

I sure hope NT does not succumb to the Windows ways, Ctrl-z (like most every program out there) when I first got a PC and Photopaint I laughed at that.
And I'm with Karmacop --I wish cut, copy, paste, redo and undo where still there, I use them all the time (sometime).


Alan Daniels great idea (another one of those "why didn't anyone think of that sooner")


comanche I'd rather see cut, copy, paste, redo and undo there-

nice work by the way- have you jumped ship from Cinema 4D- really nice!

eacide
01-07-2004, 06:41 PM
What I would like in [8] is the possibility to import my shortcuts from 7.5. I have built a layout of shortcuts usable on my French keyboard and assigned a few of them to tools and external plugins that I use a lot e.g. bandsaw, DI extender, DI supershift, add edge and so on.

BTW, I hope that the new LW's SDK will not make obsolete the third-party plugins already downloaded.

archiea
01-07-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Matt
Why not have both?

Imagine if Apples 'Panther' worked in exactly the same way but looked like the Windows 'Luna' interface!!!!

Apple software is a good example of what you can do if you make it work how you want, not making it work with what you have.

I'd love to see is the same amount of care, attention to detail, thoughtfulness going into LightWave that Apple has done with its 'i' suite of products.

Imagine, if Apple designed LightWaves interface!!!! :)

Matt, thanks again for doing a better job at summarizing my post better than I could have... I know I've been a wet blanket about this but its because I care. It was something that struck me immediately upon seeing the new interface... And whenever the post goes up again, even through the S/N, you can get a few gems of an idea coming out of people....

dualboot
01-07-2004, 08:05 PM
While new interface has some workflow improvements over 7.5(though I don't agree with removal of copy, cut, paste, undo, redo), compared right to left with 7.5 it is butt ugly.
No attention to detail, poorely chosen colours(yellowish looks dirty!!!), too contrasty (dark gray against pure white), non centered fonts and gizmos, vertical and horizontal(look at zoom button) and I will not even mention bevels and outlines.

Looks aged, non professional,...

It really seems sad that whomever is responsible for the final look(not only usability) of interface is not reading these posts :( .
Damn shame.

archiea
01-07-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by dualboot
While new interface has some workflow improvements over 7.5(though I don't agree with removal of copy, cut, paste, undo, redo), compared right to left with 7.5 it is butt ugly.
No attention to detail, poorely chosen colours(yellowish looks dirty!!!), too contrasty (dark gray against pure white), non centered fonts and gizmos, vertical and horizontal(look at zoom button) and I will not even mention bevels and outlines.

Looks aged, non professional,...

It really seems sad that whomever is responsible for the final look(not only usability) of interface is not reading these posts :( .
Damn shame.


Thats something that has been central to my posts regarding the GUI. the argument given by some is that who cares what it looks like... which is not a valid argumetn because I do care what it looks like.. Why buy a suit if sweats are more comfortable? try winning that argument....

there's an obvious steadfastness with the new look of the gui especially since its now on the preview page as a before and after. I'll go blue in the face saying this but what makes one think that making the interface look like its from 1997 in anyway better, if the only reason for the cosmetic diference is marketing.

I mean all of the extra bevels and outlines add clutter.... reeks of a microsoft design mindset.. i.e. a windows user designing the interface. No this isn't a mac vs PC slap, its just a statement of facts. I have XP and its clunky, unwieldy, cluttered and congested. the color scheme is tacky. Same with Linux, its cluttered and the whole window system is congested.

I feel alot of this has been incorporated in the new look for the UI of LW 8.... why? I have no idea... From a stand point of UI design, its a step backwards. period.

archiea
01-07-2004, 11:59 PM
oops noticed the "expletive deleted" thing in the thread. Sorry, didn't realize the word I had used was on the poop list. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Kinda looks kewl with the "[Expletive deleted]", though.. makes it feel harsher, more tough.. more..controversial!!!:eek:

Matt
01-08-2004, 02:09 AM
dualboot ditto

archiea ditto

anieves
01-08-2004, 06:58 AM
seems to me like the UI as is now is not very popular with users... could this be called market research? If so, it is obvious that users don't like it but do like the functionality of the app.

A balance of form and function is achieveable and I'm wondering if NT is really listening and give everybody a surprise when the final LW8 comes out. I hope so.

anieves
01-08-2004, 07:06 AM
to me this is closer to what LW8 UI should have been... get rid of the drop shadow in the viewports and that's it... just my opinion.

created by SMS...
CONCEPT BY SMS (http://www.imagecommunications.de/portfolio/LW3.jpg)

eacide
01-08-2004, 07:48 AM
it looks like Messiah :D

Personnally I do not care. The only thing that I would like is a simpler menu configuration system, similar to MS Office's toolbar customisation tool.

The rest is bull-thing IMHO. I almost never look at the buttons.

Karmacop
01-08-2004, 07:54 AM
Yep, SMS made a nice UI that looks progressive from the 7.5 interface.

harlan
01-08-2004, 08:06 AM
Well, my opinion regarding the new interface is that its regressing dramatically.

Some people maintain that the look of the interface is not important, and while I'll agree for the most part, it's also the single screen that I stare at 24hrs a day. So something nice to look at is great.

The "8" interface is too much of a throwback to the 5.6 look for me. The colors of the buttons are way to far off from the color of the rest of the interface - they should all share a similar luminosity so that it's not so contrasty to look at. The bevels on the buttons are waaaaaay awful. The "8" interface looks like one of those "freebie" applications that some college-kid throws together for fun - it certainly doesn't look professional.

NewTek really missed an opportunity here to provide a much needed facelift for Lightwave. Changing the interface in a progressive manner would certainly be a marketable trait. A good interface change should indicate the quality, power, capability, ergonomics, etc.. of the application - yet "8" currrently looks like a hack - which is obviously how it's going to look in final as they're showing interface comparison screenshots now.

I just think, actually I know, they could've done a whoooooole lot better. Progress not Regress please.

The features of "8" are nice...don't get me wrong, I'm excited for it, I'm just not excited about staring at that nauseating interface 24/7

archiea
01-08-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by anieves
to me this is closer to what LW8 UI should have been... get rid of the drop shadow in the viewports and that's it... just my opinion.

created by SMS...
CONCEPT BY SMS (http://www.imagecommunications.de/portfolio/LW3.jpg)


Bravo!!! Bravo bravo bravo!!! where did you find this!!!!!! This is splendid.. it actually looks like a progressive approach to the interface.... The drop shadow is an intresting touch, though some purist may reject that...

I HIGHLY beleive that NT should reconsider the interface. Because I have run out of descriptions, all I have left to say is that the new UI, designwise, sucks tuckas, and this proposal from SMS is a far better design...

now why oh why would NT continue on this backward approach to the UI?

I actually like this one too...
http://www.imagecommunications.de/portfolio/LW.jpg

Matt
01-08-2004, 08:39 AM
not that I want to tout my own work but I always liked this 'non vX' version.

it was buried away in a loooong thread so some of you might not have seen it.

archiea
01-08-2004, 08:43 AM
Its perhaps too uniform and too monochromatic, matt, but atleast its not from the Amiga school of 5 bit gui design....

Matt
01-08-2004, 08:49 AM
it's meant to be, the thread it came from was leaning to a mono-chromatic version.

here's an earlier version . . .

HowardM
01-08-2004, 09:06 AM
So, are you all sending emails to NT about this?

I agree, the new interface is horrible and I can only pray its a placeholder.

I cant imagine why NT wouldnt go with Matts or SDS or anyone of the great designs that users presented these past few months?!
Matt did you offer it for free?

Can someone from NT PLEASE explain why it looks like it currently does in the preview page?
Proton, Deuce, etc do you ALL actually like it?


Thanks

Matt
01-08-2004, 09:29 AM
Never posted anything _directly_ to NewTek, just posted on the forum, I'm pretty sure they've seen all the concepts by everyone. I like to think they have a folder with all the mocked up suggestions, not just interfaces.

I reckon they're just busy doing the features, which is fine.

As far as I know the current code is quite limiting, to what extent is difficult to tell, but I would imagine most mockups are a little out of reach until they start re-coding stuff.

I think v9 will start showing some signs of life! :)

My real thoughts on the v8 UI are still the same as when I posted last year, which were along the lines of:


Leave the UI as it is
Extend the current control users have over screen colours
Bundle a bunch of colour schemes to choose from
Re-organise the menus better


Then think about re-designing the whole lot for a later version.

Matt

Karmacop
01-08-2004, 09:30 AM
harlan, as you can see in the new comparison shots they've softened the bevel on the buttons compared to the earlier LW8 shots, and even this makes the interface look so much newer.

Yes Matt, we all like your interfaces ;)

HowardM, I think the thing is they've paid someone to just work on the interface for LW8 and so they'd prefer to use his paid work, I'm sure you can think of several reasons why. I don't tihnk he's done a bad job over all, probably just focused in the wrong direction.

HowardM
01-08-2004, 09:32 AM
hmmm well I along with most everyone in this post agree that they did a bad job overall, and we are quite unhappy with it.
just because they paid someone doesnt mean they should continue using it!

again, sure would be nice to hear from the folks at NT about why they are going with such an 'old' looking interface?

Matt
01-08-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Yes Matt, we all like your interfaces ;)

be sure to tell me when I become annoying won't you! ;)

Matt
01-08-2004, 09:47 AM
oh they didn't hire anyone new, the UI guy is a long standing NT employee (Kevin Nations) he also does all the Toaster interfaces, so he does know what he's doing.

the beta list have had a hand in it too, it could be a case of too many cooks, when things are designed by committee they often suffer.

HowardM
01-08-2004, 10:02 AM
I have to believe (or Ill go nuts) that this is just a placeholder!

Im starting to think that maybe, just maybe, 8 is ACTUALLY going to knock all our socks off with a surpirsingly modern interface and some 'under the hood' goodies NT are keeping up their sleves!

Did I just say that? :)

Alan Daniels
01-08-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by comanche
Why don't you change your menu layout to something like this:

You can change that menu? Cool! :cool: Didn't know that. I'll have to try that when I get home. Thanks for the tip.

JelloGnome
01-08-2004, 02:11 PM
I will be happy with just about anything as long as they let us change the fonts and colors.

Matt
01-08-2004, 02:11 PM
sure can Alan, here it is . . .

Matt
01-08-2004, 02:12 PM
which gives you this . . .

Alan Daniels
01-08-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Matt
which gives you this . . .

Spiffy! :D

archiea
01-09-2004, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by HowardM
I have to believe (or Ill go nuts) that this is just a placeholder!

Im starting to think that maybe, just maybe, 8 is ACTUALLY going to knock all our socks off with a surpirsingly modern interface and some 'under the hood' goodies NT are keeping up their sleves!

Did I just say that? :)

Howard, since your dishonarable discharge you have become so..... newtek-whipped....:D

Yes, did you actually say that!?!!!??

Honestly , though, to be expecting any much more than what the demos showed is a bit unrealistic...

I think matt's insight as to the source of the UI design explains alot. I knew it has to come from some cross pollinating because it seemed that the UI for Lw was all over the place... it seemed to come from someone that was assigned to the task and had to crank something out. just MHO. I think its stands where it is or else NT wouldn;t have gone to the effort to show a before and after on the LW 8 page.. I just think that they should switch them around though.... :D

So you have to be unrealistic to be expecting a whole bunch of new "goodies"... In fact, I think the current demos show alot.... the new char stuff opens up flexibility, so while it doesn't look like a long exhaustive list, I think workflow improvements sound deceptively underwhelming.... I bet that once we work the "eight way" it would be hard to look back. Try putting that on a features page.. I, for one, want to see how far I can push the new dynamic as far as interaction, inter-relating, and workflow..

Don't forget the online manual and the training material....

its just...that interface.... eeeewww...!!! its like someone with a really nice personality, but with a face that.... eeewww!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

archiea
01-09-2004, 04:24 AM
Owh, man, silly thing posted twice....