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cresshead
01-06-2004, 04:56 PM
i see that newtek have up dated the website and have a new offer for mac users to get lightwave 7.5 at 50% off rrp..this offer is good for first quarter 2004 as lightwave 8 shold ship then.

so looks as though a january release of lightwave 8 is not on the cards, more likely a march april release of lw 8 which is....well...could be better eh!

the good news is that by the looks of it most of lw8 is working now [via what we see in the preview videos] and the only thing i've heard is that dopesheet was buggy and crashing lightwave 8 in a december build shown at london before xmas 2003...so i hope they have nearly sorted that out by now.

i really hope lightwave 8 doesn't turn into a lightwave 6 saga where if i remember right lightwave 6 took ages to appear and when it did the romours of a "quadroped" capability were nowhere to be seen!....i'm hoping dopetack isn't the thing stoping the release and it gets pulled later on due to bugs for example..

would be noice to hear from newtek on the status of the beta version soon for all those who are eager to get hold of lw8.

cresshead
01-06-2004, 05:19 PM
i've already emailed chuck on my next point....see below

could artists who have pre paid for the update, get the beta version of lightwave 8 if it looks as though a march/april release is the more realistic relese date?

i'm just iching to get my hand on that "ik boost" capabilaity that was shown in august last year.

cheers

steve g

digefxgrp
01-06-2004, 05:31 PM
I'll be real suprised if we see it before NAB.

cresshead
01-06-2004, 05:35 PM
maybe siggraph 2004?

no! only kidding!:eek:

as they've said before it'll be out when it's ready.
not until....

WizCraker
01-06-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
maybe siggraph 2004?

no! only kidding!:eek:

as they've said before it'll be out when it's ready.
not until....

Don't you mean SIGGRAPH 2005?

archiea
01-06-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by cresshead

as they've said before it'll be out when it's ready.
not until....

Well...I'M READY NOW!!!!

If it is pushed back to feb or later, they HAVE to relase a fix for the graph editor.. I mean NOW!!!!

Chris S. (Fez)
01-06-2004, 06:59 PM
I doubt we will see it before march, unless they decide to release a beta.

TyVole
01-06-2004, 07:42 PM
I don't understand how they can sell 7.5 to Mac users when it doesn't work on Panther.

I looked at that special offer on their Web site and didn't see one mention of this. This is very unethical, to say the least.

Ade
01-06-2004, 08:14 PM
50% off for mac users?
Whats the catch?
Only available in USA?
No upgrade to lw8?

bloontz
01-06-2004, 08:24 PM
In small print at the bottom of the page describing the offer-

"This offer includes LightWave version [7.5], Mac USB Dongle only.
Free upgrade to version [8] is not included in this offer.
This offer valid only in contenental USA."

lonestar1
01-06-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
maybe siggraph 2004?

no! only kidding!

Maybe not. If Newtek were to comply with all the requests for tutorials, videos, unscheduled betas, etc., it could very well delay the release until next summer. All that stuff takes time, you know. TANSTAAFL.

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 09:25 PM
If LW 8 does not ship by the 1st of Feb 2004, I have but one emotion to express..... ANGER.

I just looked at my e-mail from "Irene" at NewTek and it says I placed my order on 6/24/2003.

I realize and appreciate the copy of DFX+, but....... anything other than LW [8] on my computer by Feb 1, 2004 will be very disappointing.

If Q1 2004 means April 2004, then I feel they have made a bigger mistake than just releasing the product with bugs. Just my opinion, but that is how I will feel about it. I know I will get some backlash like I did when it looked obvious Q4 2003 was going to be missed, but I was right. And I have a terrible feeling I am going to be right about this too.

If it means getting [8] now, throw the buggy features out. Get them stable and put them in a point release.

:mad:

cresshead
01-06-2004, 09:53 PM
keep cool...we'll get some info from proton or chuck once macworld is over n done with.

i think near everyone would "prefer" to have lightwave 8 in their sweaty mits right now..but newtek have a great opportunity to boost lightwave's profile with a stable full featured application so if that mean's stretching out the release date into 2004..well they'll only have one chance to cause a stir and get some good reviews of lightwave 8 in the mags/online which could bring in a substantial amount of revenue and pave the way to hiring more talent for 8.5 etc...

we'll just have to grin n bear it for now!


at least no one here is shouting that lw8 looks like a half hearted effort..quite the oposite..most think that it rocks and are clamouring for it...something that most threads early last year were not being written about eh?

more like is lightwave doomed back then...so can you see how much newtek have turned this around from 2003?

they've worked really hard and it'll pay off soon no doubt.
...for all of us.

...."just wave":D

badllarma
01-07-2004, 12:04 AM
Well I've been very polite with regards to the release of Lightwave 8 and have been very supportive of Newteks point of view but if we start talking March, April or later! for release I'm going to be more than a little angry they had my money since August 2003 and not delivered the product I have paid for.

I totally understand production/testing etc can slip (I'm a qualified application programmer) but if we are talking after the end of Feb some one really needs there arse kicking as they must be some pretty fundemental problems been found at the Beta testing stages. (which we have been told they are doing at present).

From a personal point of view I went without a hoilday last year to pay for this upgrade, I have had Inside Lightwave 8 preordered for my Birthday in October 2003 both of which I was sort of expecting around end of December 2003.

An estimate is an estimate as Chuck and others have already stated based on the information they have at that present second in time but to be out by months well I'm not going there at present as I'm sure we will be seeing Lightwave 8 soon :)

Beamtracer
01-07-2004, 02:09 AM
You guys should be glad Microsoft doesn't make Lightwave, or you'd be waiting 'till 2009 !!!!

Yog
01-07-2004, 02:34 AM
In all fairness, "In 1st Quater 2004", could be tomorrow.
Of course they had to upgrade the site from "Q4 2003", it just wouldn't have looked right.

As much as I b**** and moan, I'd rather wait for the finished product, and as much as this delay is an irritation to people in the short term, another buggy release could be bad for Newtek in the long term.

Now, if you were to get me started on Modeler and rendering updates, well that could be a different story ;)

TyVole
01-07-2004, 03:53 AM
The thing is that no matter how much testing they do, it will still probably be somewhat buggy, as it's impossible to test all possible configurations and environments.

They should release a public beta. The only negative would be the bandwidth hit.

Emmanuel
01-07-2004, 04:41 AM
I am not one of the unlucky customers who pre-paid (never did, never will), and to me, the new release schedule is quite okay, I feel that maybe NT will take more time and add more of the requested features, rewrite/change some stuff etc.
I would be pretty happy if NT would do "early screenings" of LW more in the future, show us what they are doing and collect our comments, change/improve based on these comments and release a new version after that.
Its way more economic and efficient than sitting in the ivory tower, develop features only the developers think are cool and face the music after the release, only to hear that people don't like this, don't like that etc.
Its much safer to cooperate with the customers :)
I remember the little UV-mapping fiasco after 6 was released, where NT seemed to got it completely wrong, what they offered in no way matched the needs/wishes of customers for UV-mapping, so they had to change it.Had they gathered more input BEFORE, they would have saved time and money and delivered UVs the way we wanted it.
I still don't undestand how a feature that was already in other packages like UView, Max for such a long time could be implemented in such a poor way (which doesn't make the old dev team shine).
I hope they are not having that problem with the Expressions Editor, the Dopetrack and the new dynamics, I already hear people complain about "not fully implemented with LWs other features, outdated, etc".
People exspect certain things from the Dopesheet and Expression Editors, things they know from other mainstream packages (Maya, C4D), I hope that NT does it the way its meant to be, not the NewTek way, which coul make people say that its a Dopesheet, but "not a real one, like in package X".

Phil
01-07-2004, 04:51 AM
I did wonder about the subscription plan approach whereby those with more time to spare for testing new features, etc. would be able to join a rolling upgrade plan and have access to pre-release or milestone builds. It would at least avoid the moaning and griping that has been seen recently and perhaps also give the LW devs a valuable chunk of feedback.

By having money coming in off this program, you'd also have a revenue stream for continuing development and be reasonably confident that you'd make your projected release dates with a stable package. *shrug*

You'd also be able to issue a/b/c style updates without causing the kind of trouble seen with 7.5b and 7.5c releases. That really shook faith in the NT testing processes and could also be partially responsible for the evident public concern surrounding the 8.0 release.

colkai
01-07-2004, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
You guys should be glad Microsoft doesn't make Lightwave, or you'd be waiting 'till 2009 !!!!

Heh, and when it arrived it would be filled with holes and bloatware beyond belief. Oh, and you'd need a dual 3Ghz PC with 2Gb of RAM and 120GB harddrive just to run it :p

But yeah - I think even us eager pre-payers are getting a little twitchy. I agree with Steve, a beta for the pre-paid guys would be a nice touch.

Yog
01-07-2004, 05:21 AM
The LW6 semi-open beta went very well (despite reporting some bugs that still made it into the final release), and just after the release Newtek said themselves that they thought it went very well and found it useful.

It created a lot of user goodwill, and word of mouth helped create the good type of hype.

So I'm not sure why it's not been repeated since.

Then again LW6 was totally unlike anything that went before, the core was completly re-written (lots of potential for bugs), even the modelling phylosiphy changed completely.
Perhaps semi-open betas are less useful when the core remains the same and it's mainly just new features to the animation side that have been added.

Yog
01-07-2004, 05:25 AM
Darn Quote button, meant to press Edit. :rolleyes:

archiea
01-07-2004, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Phil
I did wonder about the subscription plan approach whereby those with more time to spare for testing new features, etc. would be able to join a rolling upgrade plan and have access to pre-release or milestone builds. It would at least avoid the moaning and griping that has been seen recently and perhaps also give the LW devs a valuable chunk of feedback.

By having money coming in off this program, you'd also have a revenue stream for continuing development and be reasonably confident that you'd make your projected release dates with a stable package. *shrug*

You'd also be able to issue a/b/c style updates without causing the kind of trouble seen with 7.5b and 7.5c releases. That really shook faith in the NT testing processes and could also be partially responsible for the evident public concern surrounding the 8.0 release.


What started as a prelrelease offer HAS become a subscription... I feel like i funded NT development for the Summer, fall and winter while being told that there was a firm release date... even being Spammed for it...

If they would just fix 7.5c mac in the meantime instead of excuses after excuses... then i;d continue away on 7.5 c and have 8 be ready when its ready. I mean yeah, software development is hard to judge.. but mid october to mid january!?!?!?!? And all the time making excuses for 7.5c mac by stating that 8 will be out soon?

thats a bit much.. I'm not even pushing for 8 anymore.. just 7.5d....

animotion
01-07-2004, 06:35 AM
Talk about empty promises! I am a former mack 3Der and was waiting for the mack release of messiah!! It has been years and they are still saying there will be a mac version soon.

That is some serious BS.

GO NEWTEK!

Animotion

archiea
01-07-2004, 06:45 AM
May be the same with luxology....

Nemoid
01-07-2004, 08:31 AM
Lw 8 will ship when its ready!!! :D

we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app we want a rocking solid app....:D

seriously, first quarter is good. hope IT can ship on end January/ february 2004.

P.S. [Sarcasm] Luxology site has just been updated today!
now my life is really going to be different!!! [endSarcasm]

Dodgy
01-07-2004, 08:43 AM
Given even they thought it would be finished by the end of december until the actual date came round, I should imagine it's not far off. Unless they've taken the slip to allow themselves to put even more stuff in and ship it a little bit later still...

dwburman
01-07-2004, 09:18 AM
I have to admit that one of the main reasons I pre-paid was because I needed a compositing app. It does take the sting out of the delay, but it would be nice to have L[8]

Psyhke
01-07-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
i see that newtek have up dated the website..<snip>

Erm, am I crazy or doesn't this page still say Q4 2003?

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/index.php

Where did you see the Q1 2004 reference?

cresshead
01-07-2004, 11:39 AM
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/01-06-04a.html

and

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/dfxoffer/dfx_eu.html

lonestar1
01-07-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
The thing is that no matter how much testing they do, it will still probably be somewhat buggy, as it's impossible to test all possible configurations and environments.

They should release a public beta. The only negative would be the bandwidth hit.

And the effort needed to administer and support the beta, evaluate the results, incorporate changes back into the product -- a beta test is a *test*, not just an opportunity for customers to play with a new product. Adding an unscheduled public beta at this point would certainly affect the release date of the product. Why not let Newtek decide whether it's warranted instead of playing Monday morning software development manager?

TyVole
01-07-2004, 03:26 PM
I'm sorry, do you work at NewTek?

If not, you probably have no means of knowing what amount of time a public beta would add to the release date and are just trying to start a needless argument. All I was offering was an opinion.

In my software development experiences, public betas, while adding a small amount of time to the development cycle, also universally uncover bugs and issues that would've gone undiscovered. This is especially true for small shops with limited QA resources.

Zach
01-07-2004, 03:43 PM
if protons got a working version of the 8 beta, and you know ablan does, then it would be cool to have that exe linked to a page that said, "LW8: beta only, This version will not be supported by NewTek. Download as is."

that would just be dandy! ;)

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 04:25 PM
I say just get the finished 8.0 release out the door as soon as it's ready. Don't waste time trying to put out a public beta and have support forums and bug reports and all this and that. Just think of the initial release as your public beta and every LW8 user as a beta tester. That's what point releases are for. There's no rule saying they can't have as many point releases as need be.

Zach
01-07-2004, 04:34 PM
I guess then we should have had 8 in our hands by now aye?

pauland
01-07-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
I'm sorry, do you work at NewTek?

If not, you probably have no means of knowing what amount of time a public beta would add to the release date and are just trying to start a needless argument. All I was offering was an opinion.

Unless you work at Newtek, I think TyVole has just as valid an opinion as yours. I would suggest possibly even more valid, since I agree there shouldn't be a public Beta as it's not as straight-forward as you seem to think.

Your absolutely right about the needless argument. We'll just agree to differ, I think.

Paul

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Zach
I guess then we should have had 8 in our hands by now aye?

Well, no. I was just saying, don't delay it even further by trying to do a public beta.

lonestar1
01-07-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
I'm sorry, do you work at NewTek?

If not, you probably have no means of knowing what amount of time a public beta would add to the release date and are just trying to start a needless argument. All I was offering was an opinion.

No, I don't work at NewTek, but I have worked for other software development organizations. You stated (not as opinion but fact) that a public beta would require nothing but Internet bandwidth. I can tell you from experience that is very wrong (as you yourself have now admitted).

I never claimed to know how much a public beta would push out the release date. In fact, I specifically stated that Newtek employees were the only people in a position to know that and we should let them make the decision instead of playing Monday morning software manager. Do *you* for Newtek?

TyVole
01-07-2004, 05:20 PM
My intention was simply to state my opinion that a public beta would be useful. I maintain this opinion, especially if they're not intending to release the product this quarter, as would be implied by cresshead's links.

archiea
01-07-2004, 07:30 PM
Well, the LW preview page is morphing as we speak... its evolving... cells splitting and mutating...

OK, I've been watching too much discovery....

Anyway, the beloved LW 8 preview page is now sportin' a release date of.... "later this year"... So the good news is that at least we can't falut NT for missing a quater now....

the bad news is, well.....

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/index.php

Hey, I like hte new tabbed interface on the page.. See... no dark outlines... look at how nice that looks....:D

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 08:03 PM
I'd like some clarification on what "later this year" means. I'm wondering if that's a carryover from when they intended it to be released in 2003.

Of course, tomorrow is later this year so that could mean virtually anything.

TyVole
01-07-2004, 08:09 PM
I think that was a carryover. I believe that's how it was worded before (last year.)

Hervé
01-07-2004, 11:49 PM
In fact all of these flames are a question of money.... poeple who did not pre pay are not angry, and they have time....

Ship it when it's ready, period.

This thread is now closed...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

archiea
01-07-2004, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
I think that was a carryover. I believe that's how it was worded before (last year.)

Well, as I recall, the page had said 4th quater 2003. then after christmas but before macworld it said first Q 2004. As of today i believe it says "later this year'.

I recall yesterday it saying 1st quater 2004, unless it was buffered, but the page had changed prior to that recently when it had said Q4 2003.

mkiii
01-08-2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
In fact all of these flames are a question of money.... poeple who did not pre pay are not angry, and they have time....

Ship it when it's ready, period.

This thread is now closed...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see.
Loyalty to a product == sucker.

That's a good lesson, but is it one that Newtek wants people to learn?

This thread is most definately not closed.

pauland
01-08-2004, 07:03 AM
If you pay for a pre-release you have no guarantee when you will see final product. Newtek gave us a great deal, so that we would be encouraged to put money up front.

I, like others bought the pre-release, knowing that there are no guarantees over software delivery dates, no matter what people might have thought. I am as confident now as I was all those months ago that Newtek will deliver a great product with LW8. I am happy that Newtek have had the benefit of my money to continue funding their operations. Even without the LW8 upgrade, the DFX software was a great deal.

It's not a question of loyalty and I don't feel like a sucker. I knew upfront what the situation was - no guarantees of delivery dates when you opt for a prerelease. In return we had the DFX+ sweetener.

If anyone feels like a sucker, or angry about the pre-release purchase, they have only themsleves to blame. Newtek didn't force you to buy and indeed you shouldn't have bought if you wanted some guarantee of delivery. If you want a guaranteed delivery, wait till it's in a box at your dealer.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way that Newtek let us down, is in slipping the release date. Newtek aren't the only company that doesn't get it's releases perfectly timed and I think more of them because they've slipped the date, rather than if they'd bowed to pressure.

Loyalty doesn't come into this. I had faith that Newtek would deliver a great product for the money. They're past record is excellent and I've already had great value from my purchase. If there was an alternative product that suited me better I'd buy it.

Being a happy Newtek customer doesn't mean that I can't recognise what great value for money I've had, and will have in future.

The only problem with the pre-release, is that I didn't realise that I'd end up listening to people who have little better to do than complain about a perfectly satisfactory deal and situation.

If anyone is unhappy with Lightwave, I'd encourage them to sell the software to someone who can appreciate it, and use the money on something else.

Paul

badllarma
01-08-2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
In fact all of these flames are a question of money.... poeple who did not pre pay are not angry, and they have time....

Ship it when it's ready, period.

This thread is now closed...................
-------------------

As your not the mod Herve it is not closed, and this is not about money it's about moving boundaries, I don't think anyone is worried about the money (that much) other wise they would not have paid for it in the first place.
What people are woried about is every time we look at the LW 8 page the times are changing from Q4 2003 to Q1 2004 to later this year! Get half way through the year are we going to get Q1 2005? :rolleyes:
I personally was given the impression that by the end of December that there was spit and polishing to do then that would be it, being currently beta testing stages, now are we looking at March or Later? Who knows only Newtek?

What we are seeing here is the fact although people are getting fustrated by the fact we have all seen the vids that were released and however good the new features are (which they are! VERY good in fact!) we have been seeing the majority of these since Siggraph 2003 AKA IK, Dynamics etc.... Ok before I get flamed NOT all. (Expression editor etc..) So what is happening? that is the question if there is a major problem been found why not get a press release saying "Sorry folk we are having a few problems it's going to be delayed until xyz". It is the not knowing that is the problem to most people NOT when it will actually arrive.

Of course this is ALL speculation the team at Newtek could be reading this and having a great laugh and tomorrow it could be released :D we shall see.
Personally I wondering if this is to do with a forth coming Lux release of a product? Now that is real speculation for you :D

One thing for cirtain there is one guy at Newtek (forgot his name) who will be giving talking to 3D World considerable though in the future, my thoughts are with you mate! :D

TSpyrison
01-08-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by mkiii
I see.
Loyalty to a product == sucker.

That's a good lesson, but is it one that Newtek wants people to learn?

This thread is most definately not closed.

I pre-paid.. Yes, Id like to see it released as soon as its ready..
But im not angry.
I deffinately dont consider myself a sucker for being loyal to a product/company.

Good products and companys generate loyalty..
and im not going to be fickle just because a release date slipped.

Im sure they are working their rear-ends off to get us a good product

Paul_Boland
01-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Where does it say "...later this year..." for the release? This concerns me as I want to purchase Lightwave 8 (and get the CD's and manual) on student discount. I can't (at the moment) afford to buy it out full but I complete my college course at the end of May. If need be, I will invest in version 7.5 but I would really like to get version 8 with CD's and manual.

ncr100
01-08-2004, 02:59 PM
Paul, some info:

[8] is supposedly in "beta" now, so that means no more features being added, just testing & distribution left to do. So it should ship before March (mid Feb?).

When I upgraded to [8] the reseller sent me 7.5 discs in the mail. I already had some, now I have more, yay $1500 drink coasters!

I believe they charge extra for printed manuals...you can d/l free pdf's tho...they do for upgraders at least.

If you buy [8] on student discount then I believe you may have to pay $400 US for a sideways license/registration transfer to "non-student" when you decide to upgrade to [9] in a year and a half. You don't have to worry about this if you 1) are still going to be a student when [9] comes out or 2) are planning on having a lot of CA$H MONEY by then.



Originally posted by Paul_Boland
Where does it say "...later this year..." for the release? This concerns me as I want to purchase Lightwave 8 (and get the CD's and manual) on student discount. I can't (at the moment) afford to buy it out full but I complete my college course at the end of May. If need be, I will invest in version 7.5 but I would really like to get version 8 with CD's and manual.

Karmacop
01-08-2004, 03:24 PM
Student upgrades to full version are just the normal upgrade fee as far as I know. It use to cost more but I'm not certain. get into contact with Newtek to know for sure.

mkiii
01-08-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by pauland
Newtek gave us a great deal, so that we would be encouraged to put money up front.
<snip>
It's not a question of loyalty and I don't feel like a sucker. I knew upfront what the situation was - no guarantees of delivery dates when you opt for a prerelease. In return we had the DFX+ sweetener.

If anyone feels like a sucker, or angry about the pre-release purchase, they have only themsleves to blame. Newtek didn't force you to buy and indeed you shouldn't have bought if you wanted some guarantee of delivery. If you want a guaranteed delivery, wait till it's in a box at your dealer.

<snip>

Loyalty doesn't come into this. I had faith that Newtek would deliver a great product for the money. They're past record is excellent and I've already had great value from my purchase. If there was an alternative product that suited me better I'd buy it.
<snip>
The only problem with the pre-release, is that I didn't realise that I'd end up listening to people who have little better to do than complain about a perfectly satisfactory deal and situation.

If anyone is unhappy with Lightwave, I'd encourage them to sell the software to someone who can appreciate it, and use the money on something else.

Paul
Pauland: I'm assuming your rant is at me. If not, I apologise.

First, calm down a little. Why do you read threads that are obviously questioning the current situation if they upset you so much.

If you read my post again *slowly*, I'm sure you will realise that I was merely trying to translate the message given by Herve, and disagree with the sentiments Maybe I should have written it better for the hard of understanding. Something like '' I See - What *you* are saying is...''

As for your own statements on how we have only ourselves to blame if we believed the promised delivery date (IE 'Lightwave 8 will ship Q4 2003') seems to me to fall into pretty much the same category as his.

I'm getting used to this rhetoric every time anybody questions any aspect of what Newtek does with regard to the release of 8, and I can not see for the life of me why on earth the few people who claim not to care when Newtek are going to release the software keep participating in threads that are asking just that question. The only reason I can see, is for the sake of an argument, or is it that you just don't want to be pounced upon?

Anyway - I'm glad that you *are* so happy about the great deal & situation, and thank you for your wise words on how I should use my money, especially since you are so busy 'getting on with things'.

pauland
01-08-2004, 04:17 PM
mkiii, if I and others didn't express a contrary view to yours, anyone would think yours was the only view.

It's disappointing that the release is delayed. Some people, yourself included, seem to feel that by complaining about the lack of a release, might make Newtek do something different, and the release will appear sooner. If that's not what you feel, then there's no point in compaining about the delays.

Complaining is all very well if it can somehow change an outcome. I don't think that anything on this forum will change the speed that Newtek squashes L[8] bugs, so complaining is just being negative for the sake of it.

I don't particularly enjoy arguments, but I don't like those who dwell on the negatives to be the only voice heard.

I'll continue to present my opinion, I'm not sure it qualifies as a rant though. I'll also remain 'hard of understanding', if only because I can't understand what the point of complaining is (don't trouble yourself to explain further for my benefit).

Paul

Yog
01-08-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by pauland

It's disappointing that the release is delayed. Some people, yourself included, seem to feel that by complaining about the lack of a release, might make Newtek do something different, and the release will appear sooner. If that's not what you feel, then there's no point in compaining about the delays.


It might not make Newtek release LW8 any quicker, but hopefully it will remind them not to be so precise about anouncing their release dates (quarter of a year ;) ).

And I sincerly hope it helps persuade them that this peak and hide method of releasing what is going to be in or out of the next release (followed be long periods of silence without a full feature list), is a seriously bad idea, and does nothing but create flame wars on forums.

Also it helps to expose the two sided nature of payment in advance (plus = more money for development costs vrs minus = people feal they have more of a right to moan when it's later or not what they expected).

So yes, grumbling and complaining can be a positive thing ;) :D

pauland
01-08-2004, 05:05 PM
Yog, I think Newtek have a dificullt job to do. Their funding is smaller than their competitors and they compete by being rather less orthodox than the big companies. Sometimes it's a pain, sometimes it's fun.

It's fine for us to speculate about Newtek (even though we don't know the whole story), but it's important that while we can express a view, it's not so easy for Newtek, or any company to be completely forthright about their situation.

Depending on what Newtek says (or doesn't say) are the futures of the employees and families of Newtek, and in a secondary manner many artists that rely on a strong low cost product. When you have that responsibilty, you have to be careful what you do and say.

Overall, I'd say they're doing a fine job, but I'd also agree that there are some rough edges, as you say.

Paul

mkiii
01-08-2004, 06:04 PM
Sorry to dissapoint you pauland - but I do feel the need to explain further.

You spent many lines berating the fact that I was complaining about 8 not being out yet. & most recently pointed out that

''if I and others didn't express a contrary view to yours, anyone would think yours was the only view''

For one thing - Only you seem to have expressed a contrary view so far. And a contrary view to *what* I ask?

Please tell me what view I was expressing in my original post that irked you so much, and where I have complained that LW8 is not out yet.

You seem to think I was complaining that I felt like a sucker for pre-paying. I suggest again that you read the message more carefully, because you seem to have misunderstood my point & the context in which it was written.

I'm OK with the fact that I prepayed. I'm not OK with people telling me I'm a sucker for paying it. I've done my LW Evangelism bit over the last 7 or 8 years.

Having said that I reserve the right to complain, admonish or praise where I see fit otherwise anyone might think yours was the only view.

pauland
01-08-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by mkiii
You seem to think I was complaining that I felt like a sucker for pre-paying. I suggest again that you read the message more carefully, because you seem to have misunderstood my point & the context in which it was written.

I'm OK with the fact that I prepayed. I'm not OK with people telling me I'm a sucker for paying it. I've done my LW Evangelism bit over the last 7 or 8 years.

OK, I've looked back, and you are right I didn't interpret your post in the way that you intended.

You introduced the line

Loyalty to a product == sucker.

and for some strange reason, I thought that was the point you were trying to make. I guess there's a reason I can't do cryptic crosswords.

OK, I guess in spirit we aren't so different, just in the execution.

Paul.

RomainR
01-08-2004, 06:23 PM
The truth is that one of the stereotypes of the human kind is the never ending need to complain. Doesn't matter what the complaint is about, just complain. Today is a release date, and when 8 is out it will be about how something is missing and that they took so long to give something not finished to their complaint standards.

There should be a thread just for complaint freaks. That way if you go there you can't say you wasn't warned. hehe

mkiii
01-08-2004, 07:47 PM
Well I'm glad were cleared up on that. Sorry for being so cryptic. In fact Herve probably meant to say something completely different too, so just in case apologies to him too.

RomainR: complaining is what makes us unique in the animal kingdom - don't knock it.

Anyway - that's why the old Betaforce was a good idea imo - we got our grubby hands on it early. Were allowed to complain about bugs officially. We got a chance to look smug on newsgroups where non betamungers lived.

Of course, the best bit was the T-Shirt & blue Newtek lollypop - which I still have uneaten. Wonder if it's worth anything now?

RomainR
01-08-2004, 08:37 PM
I'm not knocking, just my 2.

Hervé
01-08-2004, 11:48 PM
Hoooolaaa Tornado... Hooollaaaa..... heeeeeee

(Tornado is the horse of Zorro.... he he)

and you' better Mkiii, I was getting ready to come to fix you up... ha ha (just kidding !!):D

ok i shut up..... ok...ok

Paul_Boland
01-09-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by ncr100
Paul, some info:

[8] is supposedly in "beta" now, so that means no more features being added, just testing & distribution left to do. So it should ship before March (mid Feb?).

When I upgraded to [8] the reseller sent me 7.5 discs in the mail. I already had some, now I have more, yay $1500 drink coasters!

I believe they charge extra for printed manuals...you can d/l free pdf's tho...they do for upgraders at least.

If you buy [8] on student discount then I believe you may have to pay $400 US for a sideways license/registration transfer to "non-student" when you decide to upgrade to [9] in a year and a half. You don't have to worry about this if you 1) are still going to be a student when [9] comes out or 2) are planning on having a lot of CA$H MONEY by then.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to be new to Lightwave, so I'll be purchasing the full version, not an upgrade. I looked into getting version 7.5 and it came with manual and CD's. Then I learned about version 8 shipping soon (hopefully) so I held off the purchase.

To go from the student version to the full version is just the cost of the remainder of the cost between the two packages. That's ideal for me because it means I can get version 8, start to learn it, and a few months down the line, buy the full licence when I have the cash. So all I am hoping for is that version 8 ships before the end of May.

Trulsi
01-11-2004, 05:27 PM
To go from the student version to the full version is just the cost of the remainder of the cost between the two packages.

Hmm... are you sure? Seems a lot cheaper. It was when I did a few months ago, anyway.

Chuck
01-12-2004, 08:42 AM
To convert a Student license to commercial at a time when an upgrade is available, you simply purchase the upgrade at the commercial upgrade price instead of the student upgrade price. At times when you have the current version and need to convert right then as opposed to waiting for the next paid upgrade, the fee is $495US.

Limbus
01-12-2004, 09:57 AM
Hi Chuck,
while at the subject of student license I would like to ask if NewTek has some special deal for schools and universities?

Thanks in advance! :)

Florian

Paul_Boland
01-12-2004, 12:20 PM
Well, that's what I was told when looking into getting Lightwave 7.5 on student discount. With the student version, you can't use it for any commercial purpose but you can upgrade to the full version for the price of the difference between the fill version and the student version. That puts the upgrade at about Euro1,100! It's pricy but it does mean I can get Lightwave now and pay the rest for the full license later.

I live in Ireland by the way, so I am buying in Europe. Perhaps it's different from the way it works in the USA.

Chuck
01-12-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Limbus
Hi Chuck,
while at the subject of student license I would like to ask if NewTek has some special deal for schools and universities?

Thanks in advance! :)

Florian

Yes, we have educational pricing for schools and universities, including lab packs with multiple seats. Schools and universities can contact our sales department for details.