PDA

View Full Version : any release date at the horizon ?



Hervé
01-06-2004, 05:28 AM
Well I can ask ...... nothing bad....

cresshead
01-06-2004, 06:34 AM
"edited due to the wind outside"

spigolo
01-06-2004, 07:01 AM
Maybe they expected this year in order to release it the 29 of February!
It wouldn't be possible last year...

Bytehawk
01-06-2004, 11:21 AM
[vorlon voice on]

[|||..=-_+*+_-=..|||]

yessssssssssss

[=-|-=]

[vorlon voice off]

jcool
01-06-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Bytehawk
[vorlon voice on]

[|||..=-_+*+_-=..|||]

yessssssssssss

[=-|-=]

[vorlon voice off]

You sir, are a huge nerd.

spigolo
01-06-2004, 12:50 PM
This lightwave 8 deadline is making us crazy with a mix of feeling :are we afraid to see just what we know or are we expecting that newtek didn't said all..

have you ever thought that it might non come out??

Better have always a fire escape... (houdini? xsi? C4d?..Max oh no I better die in the flame)

Sorry i'm a little bit tired from work and for waiting, for me this version is crucial to decide for the studio I run to go on with LW (we use it since version 3.5) or throw away ten years of experience and start with something else.. (hope not)

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 01:53 PM
The update given by NewTek marketing about [8] not making the Q4 2003 estimate was certainly appreciated. I certainly appreciated it and that simple statement was all I needed to leave them alone.

But.... now... we really need a constant flow of information from NewTek about [8]. Feature list, videos, tutorials, and anything they can provide within reason to keep us on their side. I think NewTek going into silent mode is a bad idea. More and more people will start making their way to the forum complaining... me included.

I don't remember exactly when I ordered my copy of [8], but believe it was around July 2003. The closer we get to July 2004 without [8] the more angry I will get. DFX+ is the only reason I agreed to order [8] up-front and wait 6 months to get it (or not get it as it currently stands).

So, I hope [8] is ready to go soon. I'm certainly getting ansy and I would bet others are too.

Go NewTek go !!!!!

KOlson
01-06-2004, 04:34 PM
They have updated the preview page a tad... Hope it's released soon as well. :D

Chuck
01-06-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine

But.... now... we really need a constant flow of information from NewTek about [8]. Feature list, videos, tutorials, and anything they can provide within reason to keep us on their side. I think NewTek going into silent mode is a bad idea.

Please allow us a breather now and then! ;)

William is away at MacWorld so he won't be able to do more demo videos until he gets back. We are working on updating the preview page with a longer list of the features, with illustrations and links to the demo videos. We'll be building on that once we have it up, filling in the details, and linking in new demo videos and tutorials as we create them. These things do take time to do and we do have other tasks that we also have to give time to as well, so there will be times when nothing new has been added for a while - that's not silent mode, that's working mode and it's going to result in the info that you want getting to you.

KOlson
01-06-2004, 05:13 PM
Thanks Chuck! :)

Has anyone noticed in the two comparison shots on the preview page that "volume" select mode is missing from 8 modeler?

riki
01-06-2004, 05:25 PM
It is the holiday season after all. We should be at the beach taking it easy :)

Yeah I noticed Volume Select was missing. I was wonderring the same thing. I use it quite frequently.

js33
01-06-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by riki
It is the holiday season after all. We should be at the beach taking it easy :)

You Aussies get to lie on the beach while we are freezing to death in the states. :mad:

Well not exactly freezing to death in Texas but they are up north.
-25 degrees Fahrenheit in the Detroit area. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I hate the cold. Well it's about 70-80 degrees F in Florida where my sister lives. So I guess they can go to the beach in the Winter.

What is it like in Aussieland in your winter/our summer?

Then we will be baking to death. :(

Well no matter what you current temp is chill out and LW 8 will be out soon.

Cheers,
JS

hrgiger
01-06-2004, 06:19 PM
I agree, some steady new info from Newtek here and there over the next few months until Lightwave 8 is released would be nice.

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 06:33 PM
hrgiger,

Totally agree .... except the next few months part. :D

archiea
01-06-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Please allow us a breather now and then! ;)

William is away at MacWorld so he won't be able to do more demo videos until he gets back. We are working on updating the preview page with a longer list of the features, with illustrations and links to the demo videos. We'll be building on that once we have it up, filling in the details, and linking in new demo videos and tutorials as we create them. These things do take time to do and we do have other tasks that we also have to give time to as well, so there will be times when nothing new has been added for a while - that's not silent mode, that's working mode and it's going to result in the info that you want getting to you.


Well, NT JUST released those demos... So I'm not sure what the gang is asking for here.. I just think that the release of 8 is gonna be anticlimatic.. the good news is that with all of the tutorials.. I feel like I know a bit of the new features already... so in a way, thats pretty good...

riki
01-06-2004, 06:40 PM
Hey JS yeah Christmas always seem a bit strange here, usually stinky hot summer looking at pictures of snow and christmas trees.

Winter is pretty mild here in comparission to parts of Europe, it might get cold (maybe 14C), but never snows and we still get sunny blue skies in winter.

Though this year the weathers been really wierd, hot and humid one day, cold and raining the next. I even saw a pix in the newspaper yesterday of a beach with fog on a hot humid morning, very freaky.

js33
01-06-2004, 07:14 PM
Hehehe. Must be weird to be having summer when most of the world is looking at snow and Christmas trees. Well Texas weather can be strange also. It was 80F a week ago and now it's 20F. Sorry I don't use Celsius so I have to convert to Fahrenheit before it means anything to me. 20F is -6.6 C.

Cheers,
JS

lonestar1
01-06-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
The update given by NewTek marketing about [8] not making the Q4 2003 estimate was certainly appreciated. I certainly appreciated it and that simple statement was all I needed to leave them alone.

"All you needed to leave them alone"? Yet, you're already threatening to "get angry" and "start complaining" if you don't get a long list of goodies?

Did your mother ever say you could catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?


But.... now... we really need a constant flow of information from NewTek about [8]. Feature list, videos, tutorials, and anything they can provide within reason to keep us on their side.

So, you want Newtek to further delay the release of LW8 by diverting resources to create videos and tutorials for you? (They only have so many employees and so many hours in a week, you know.)

What about all the other people who are waiting for LW8? Do we get a vote, or is your opinion the only one that matters?

Or might we trust Newtek's managers to know how best to allocate their company resources?

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 09:37 PM
lonestar1,

Did you order [8] yet?

If you did, How long ago did you order?


I have been very positive about NewTek. So much so as to be called a fanboy. I tried to keep it light too at the end of my post when I said "Go NewTek go.".

But... I cannot help but be angry if LW [8] isn't on my computer by Feb 1 2004. I ordered my copy June of last year. The "When its ready line" is nice and I do believe in that but hey... I gave them my money back in June 2003. Developers are notorious for trying to put too much into a release. My suggestion (take it for what its worth), is to throw the buggy features (most likely last minute additions) out and put them into a point release.

Anyway, I appreciate NewTek and the people they have working the crowd as it were. Chuck and Proton are great and deserve high praise for the abuse they take. I'm just voicing my growing concern and anger about the delay of [8].

Anyway... that's all I have.

jr_sunshine
01-06-2004, 09:45 PM
lonestar1,

BTW... the only reason I suggested they continue to flow information to people is to handle the growing PR issue surrounding [8]. If they continue to release information within reason (as I stated in my original post) it would help curb the complaints that are almost certain to show up.

You want to see where everyone stands....

Ask the question:

Let's assume NewTek will ship LW [8] on April 8, 2004 and it will be in our hands between the 12th and 16th, or the 8th for those who will download it.

Dear LW [8] purchaser, Will you be very disappointed at the lateness of the [8] release?

Or will you be happy with the lateness and would even be willing to wait until Q4 2004 to "get it right"?

I'm just trying to be realistic here. I like NewTek, Chuck and Proton. I am excited about the outstanding new features. I'm just wanting to see the real return for my $495 which is LW [8].

cresshead
01-06-2004, 10:02 PM
"edited due to the wind outside"

Jockomo
01-06-2004, 10:32 PM
How about at least posting the PDF manual?

At least then we could spend some of this time actually learning something and be ready to hit the release running.

Ya know, I really don't even care if it's not finished yet, just let us start reading about it, maybe we can find some mistakes before it hits the printers for ya.

Petrik
01-06-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
---SNIP--- I ordered my copy June of last year. ---SNIP---

Yeah well keep your hair on. The date on my receipt is 23 June 2003. So you're not the only one who's hanging out for it.

mamurphy
01-06-2004, 11:47 PM
I think everyone should just relax. I would think that NT released the upgrade for purchase when they did because there was a great opportunity to do two things:

1. establish a working relationship between LW users and Eyon by offering DFX. (Maybe this i s a sign of future co-ops between NT and other players in the 3D/compositing/FX fields)

2. The early upgrade provided (always much needed) capital for NT to complete the actual update.

I, being a mac user, did not buy the upgrade. And not really needing the character animation improvements, I have not been wringing my hands, waiting for the big realease date.

Proton just recently released a pretty long list of videos showcasing the upgrades. Isn't that exactly what everyone has been hollering for?

Anyway, I know I work best when people aren't constantly interupting me, and I don't show updates to my clients unless there is something substantial to show them.

Let's just hope that NT is crunching away making their "World Class Renderer" a LOT faster.

And lastly, for goodness sake, be patient!!!!

:D

Petrik
01-07-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by mamurphy
I think everyone should just relax. I would think that NT released the upgrade for purchase when they did because there was a great opportunity to do two things:

1. establish a working relationship between LW users and Eyon by offering DFX. (Maybe this i s a sign of future co-ops between NT and other players in the 3D/compositing/FX fields)

2. The early upgrade provided (always much needed) capital for NT to complete the actual update.

I, being a mac user, did not buy the upgrade. And not really needing the character animation improvements, I have not been wringing my hands, waiting for the big realease date.

Proton just recently released a pretty long list of videos showcasing the upgrades. Isn't that exactly what everyone has been hollering for?

Anyway, I know I work best when people aren't constantly interupting me, and I don't show updates to my clients unless there is something substantial to show them.

Let's just hope that NT is crunching away making their "World Class Renderer" a LOT faster.

And lastly, for goodness sake, be patient!!!!

:D

Well said. I am just happy I could buy it at that stage with the knowledge I was going to able to get the next version when it came out.

You try going to a car yard / whiteware goods store or similar product store and try and by the latest instore model with a deal of getting the next model that is still on the drawing board free of charge.

jorbedo
01-07-2004, 03:26 AM
[Personal attack removed by Moderators]

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 05:26 AM
I think Jockomo's idea is good. Once they release a feature list, they should make the docs available so that we can get up to speed. Especially since the paper manual is costing extra and I'm not opting to buy it.

archiea
01-07-2004, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by mamurphy
I think everyone should just relax. I would think that NT released the upgrade for purchase when they did because there was a great opportunity to do two things:

1. establish a working relationship between LW users and Eyon by offering DFX. (Maybe this i s a sign of future co-ops between NT and other players in the 3D/compositing/FX fields)

2. The early upgrade provided (always much needed) capital for NT to complete the actual update.

I, being a mac user, did not buy the upgrade. And not really needing the character animation improvements, I have not been wringing my hands, waiting for the big realease date.

Proton just recently released a pretty long list of videos showcasing the upgrades. Isn't that exactly what everyone has been hollering for?

Anyway, I know I work best when people aren't constantly interupting me, and I don't show updates to my clients unless there is something substantial to show them.

Let's just hope that NT is crunching away making their "World Class Renderer" a LOT faster.

And lastly, for goodness sake, be patient!!!!

:D

I would be patient of 7.5c worked properly on the mac.....

TyVole
01-07-2004, 06:57 AM
I read a number of times that the manual wouldn't be available until after the release.

mamurphy
01-07-2004, 08:55 AM
I'm on a mac and not having any of the graph editor problems. Layout crashes from time to time, but it seems completely random.

I'm not that advanced yet, or maybe I'm just not using the tools that don't work in the "c" revision.

.....or, maybe I'm not updated to "c" yet...;)

Anyway, I just hope for everyone's sake that NT has an outstanding product roll

Jockomo
01-07-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by TyVole
I read a number of times that the manual wouldn't be available until after the release.

Maybe they could at least let Dan release Inside LW 8

:)

Qslugs
01-07-2004, 12:31 PM
I just gotta ask (sorry if this comes off as a bit gruff) who was forcing all of you to give Newtek money? I just have to ask. Obviously the lure of the free dfx+ made quite a few of you jump at the upgrade.

I'll have to say that I was temped as well, however I chose not to upgrade until last week, mainly due to the fact that I didn't need the upgrade until rescent. Also, I'm not talking about 8, I'm talking about 7. And the reason I needed the upgrade was because I needed to use a plugin that was only available for 7.0x. I learned my lesson back when 6.x came out. I bought into the beta, I used buggy software for a good year. There's still some small stuff in 6.5x that never got fixed. I decided after 6.x that I was not going to upgrade until I absolutely needed to. So now I need to. Why didn't all you guys that are complaining wait till 8 was out to upgrade? You could at least then get what you paid for when you actually ordered it. Did any of you really need DFX+?

Also, I am surprised that anyone here actually thought the software would be out on the date mentioned.

Everyone here should be busy creating with what you have instead of speculating on what may or may not be and when it will be here.

sketchyjay
01-07-2004, 12:58 PM
live and learn. thats all we can do.


Jay

lonestar1
01-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Maybe they could at least let Dan release Inside LW 8

:)

"Let him"?

I can see it now. "Hey, Dan, Jockomo has been asking you to release your book prior to LW 8 final. That might mean some of your examples might not work with the final release software, so you'd have to do an errata or a new edition, and deal with helping all the people who ran into problems, but you don't mind, do you?" :-)

cresshead
01-07-2004, 02:54 PM
"edited due to the wind outside"

steve gilbert

Zach
01-07-2004, 03:34 PM
Quote from the Lightwave 8 preview page:

"free electronic upgrade to version 8 when it ships later this year"

Does that mean later in the year, like November, or maybe March?

Wasn't it supposed to ship in 4th quarter. Maybe they meant 4th quarter 2004.

I heard in march 2003, that 8 would be an enhancement for usabilty, and the rewrite would be later in 8.5 or 9. Sure has been a long while since we got an update. Maybe they just decided to make 8 the rewrite. I guess that would explain the long time between release dates and pushing it back so far.

I like fusions motrack stuff, but I simply hate the rest of it. Hard to say that in such a harsh way, but I just can't get into its nodal aspects. But the motion tracking is well worth it, maybe the keying will be good too. It's definately worth having so I don't have to get AFX Pro. I'm fine with 6's Standard. The OGL just kicks so much more Arse than 5.5.

any way blah blah blah.

Steve McRae
01-07-2004, 03:54 PM
. . . I agree one hundred percent with you cresshead . . . I was just thinking this morning about posting something similar . . .

. . . I huridly bought the upgrade before the initial deadline (I think it was at the end of June) . . . I now regret my purchase and would gladly take a refund if it were offered . . .

. . . because of 1) Newteks communication policy to its customers and 2) the lackluster upgrade that it is turning out to be . . .

. . . my own fault I know - never again . . .

jr_sunshine
01-07-2004, 04:07 PM
Man... I hate it when I'm right. :eek:

I feel the same way guys....

I jumped on the [8]/DFX+ deal early cause it was too good to pass up. I was ok waiting for 7 months, but the prospect of waiting any longer than the end of January 2004 is very irritating.

If the core of the new features are ready to go and the only thing holding [8] up are last minute additions with lots o bugs, I say dump those last minute additions and put them into a point release. Even.... dare I say it... if it is the dopesheet which is holding everything up. As much as I want to give the dopesheet a test drive, I am more than willing to see it in [8.x] to get [8] now.

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 04:21 PM
Ok, so if Newtek had pulled the DFX deal a few short months ago when they said they were going to, we would have had all this complaining that people got cheated out of the deal.

Now that Newtek has extended the DFX deal so more people can take advantage of it(including me), we have people complaining about that. I mean, I'm sure that Newtek didn't extend the deal Cresshead, so that you would pay 4 months of interest on your credit card that you hadn't planned on. Any decent finanacial advisor will tell you that you shouldn't be spending money that you don't have. So I don't think Newtek is to blame if you can't pay your credit card balance on time to avoid interest charges no matter when they release Lightwave 8.

Hey, I just ordered my upgrade last week because I was afraid if I waited much longer that I would miss the DFX deal. i want to see them release Lightwave 8 as much as the next guy believe me, but I don't blame anyone else for my decision to buy it.

Newtek wanted to release 8 in the 4th quarter but as it someimtes is in software development, they missed the mark, c'est la vie. It happens.

I don't see it as a lackluster upgrade though.

lonestar1
01-07-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
well i bought the upgrade in september because newtek said they would pull the plug on the upgrade "deal" with either digital fusion plus or 5 training dvd's at the end of that month waaaaaaaaaaaay back in sept 2003...

Um, so...? How does Newtek's extending the deadline so other people could get the same deal hurt you?



Originally posted by cresshead
i'm pretty miffed that i spent £400 on a credit card back in september 2003 beliveing that this deal would timeout to find that i can still get the same deal now..but without the %apr charges i have paid for the last 4 months..and still be in the same boat..no lightwave 8.0 and an unopened digital fusion plus box..

It seems you're pretty miffed about everything, Steve. If LW8 shipped today, would that cause your credit card rate to go down? Has your APR gone up in the last four months? If not, you must have known what it would be when you ordered.

BTW, credit card companies are always making "limited time" offers, and those offers almost always get extended. If you're so outraged by this standard marketing practice, you probably shouldn't use a credit card.

I'm not sure how Newtek is responsible for the fact that you haven't opened the Digital Fusion box, but since you haven't, perhaps you should just return it, get your money back, and avoid any further interest charges?


i must have been pretty dumb to think that it would have actually turned up in 4th quarter 2003 like the info on the newtek pages saying less than 72 days to go etc...

but i can put up with all of this delay's n stuff if we we're informed on just what the hold up is and when a realistic timeline actually would be....it's the total lack of a realistic timeline and information which i find very irritating...plus no replies to emails from newtek

I guess "putting up with" now means constant griping. :-) Has it ever occured to you that Newtek doesn't *know* exactly how long it will take to locate and fix every last bug? That's the nature of software development. You never know exactly when it will be done until it's done. I see no reason to believe there's a conspiracy to keep things from you or ship the new release any later than necessary.


but alas we get treated with cryptic clues n hints and rumours which is quite silly and no doubt has lead to some people here losing their "rag" in posts.

so, why not level with us then?
would be nice to see.

i really do think that at least a weekly update on lightwave 8's status is would be simple to do and would make alot of l'wavers at least "kept in the loop" on what's going on with the delay.

I hate to tell you this, Steve, but "cryptic clues n hints and rumours" are often what developers have to go on when they're trying to kill the last few bugs in a piece of software. Nothing Newtek could tell you would make the software get done faster or reduce your credit card bills, anyway.

You accuse Newtek of "not levelling with us," then demand weekly reports? If you don't believe they're telling the truth now, why would you believe anything they say in the future? I also recall seeing posts from Newtek within the last week. Or does "weekly" now mean something more than once a week?

Chill out, Steve. You're acting like a nervous father expecting his first baby. The stork is flapping as hard as he can.

mamurphy
01-07-2004, 05:37 PM
I always try to make sure I know what I'm paying for.

Just because LW made it known that 8 was coming out in the future doesn't mean we should all jump off the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

At least without looking to see if there is water below.


I mean, I sure hope all you Wintel users didn't jump at Windows ME when it came out just to have the latest version.

True, LW is a totaly different package, but in retrospect, everyone who experienced the ME bugs realized it was a product rushed out to a consumer base just itching to get the latest and greatest upgrade/product. (woohoo OSX:D )

Anyway, I feel bad for everyone, but will say it again...

At least NT is taking the time to do it right instead of releasing junk and then point releases to fix all the bugs.

cresshead
01-07-2004, 05:39 PM
"edited due to the wind outside"

kml12
01-07-2004, 05:49 PM
"later this year" Go check out the updated lw8 preview page...

Jockomo
01-07-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by lonestar1
"Let him"?

I can see it now. "Hey, Dan, Jockomo has been asking you to release your book prior to LW 8 final. That might mean some of your examples might not work with the final release software, so you'd have to do an errata or a new edition, and deal with helping all the people who ran into problems, but you don't mind, do you?" :-)

Uh, maybe you don't know this, but typically Dan is part of the beta team, so he has his hands on the software long before it comes out. From what I have seen Dan's book is usually ready the day lightwave comes out. And he usually has to do an errata anyway (which is typical of any technical book), which you can find on his site. I could be wrong but my guess is that Dan's books are already printed and just waiting for the ok from NewTek to ship.

Here's the proof:

INSIDE LW 8 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2X7SAZ01Y1&isbn=0735713685&itm=7)

cresshead
01-07-2004, 06:06 PM
"edited due to the wind outside"

refers to me pulling my posts as it only seems to be causing huge amount of "hot air" to blow in the forum rather than being constructive people want to show how clever they are at taking swipes at users concerns and observations.

have fun see you when it comes out.

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 06:32 PM
Steve, I hope you didn't take my comments as a swipe at you because I didn't intend them to be. I'm just saying you shouldn't blame Newtek for your financial decisions. Ultimately, the decsion is yours to upgrade when you do.

lonestar1
01-07-2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Uh, maybe you don't know this, but typically Dan is part of the beta team, so he has his hands on the software long before it comes out. From what I have seen Dan's book is usually ready the day lightwave comes out.

No, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the beta version often differs from the final release version. If Dan publishes a tutorial that works with the beta version but not the final release version, it does nobody any good, does it? (Remember the guys who suggested Newtek should pull buggy features from LW8 to get it out faster? That would affect any tutorials that use those features, right?)

I'm sure Dan, his publisher, and Newtek are able to set their schedules without noodling from you, me, or anyone else in this forum. Do you like it when outsiders come to your workplace and start telling you how to do your job?

SLAYER
01-07-2004, 07:06 PM
It's been what, 7 or 8 months since the pre order deal that was too good to pass up?

7 or 8 months when you think about it is almost a year. When this finally ships maybe it will have been a year.

So what's a year or two? Maybe we can pay for LW 9 now and let Newtek have our money for a couple of years for that as well!

Pay us for LW9 now and receive this free gift now and LW9 two years from now!

The DFX deal made me buy as I did not want to miss out. It is not something I use now or will even use until I am better at LW, but I wanted the deal before it was gone. I can see now that this was pointless and that I did not need to spend money that I did not really have to get something I was afraid I would miss out on.
If I knew I would have this long I would have bought it alot later.
I was only reassured that my investment would not let me down by the quote in 3D World that Newtek would for sure make the date this time. Well now I know better for 9 when they offer some pre-order special for that.

I think it is bull**** to lure people nearly a year early. MODO will probably release before 9 and I could have used my money to get that instead!.

Maybe Newtek could give us the printed manual for free now instead of another $100 upgrade. If I pay for this new LW8 manual, it probably will not be released for another 9 months.

hrgiger
01-07-2004, 07:22 PM
Honestly Slayer, at Siggraph, they announced that it would be 4th quarter before the release of LIghtwave 8. So even at that point, you knew it could be 6-8 months....what's a month or two more at this point?
And just because Lightwave will be a little late, it still doesn't change the fact that you got $1500 of free software with your upgrade(or whatever DFX/DF cost).

TyVole
01-07-2004, 07:39 PM
cresshead,

I understand how you feel. Some people here are far too quick to take swipes at others whose opinions they disagree with. And it's only because they don't have face you -- because they would never dare to say the things they said to you in person.

Keep heart -- you're not alone.

In regards to the DFX+, you should really give it a spin. I've found it to be a terrific app.

cresshead
01-07-2004, 08:20 PM
hi there, i was letting off some steam in those posts but that resulted in some bad feelings from others so i deleted it to stop it spreading out of control.

re the finance...at the time i had to use a credit card..the update is now paid for from turbosquid sales [i'm the max and gmax modelator over at turbosquid forums btw]
also most people base decisions on available information which i did when buying the limited time upgrade with digital fusion+....next time i'll add a crystal ball to my credit card purchases!

re swipes..i'll live!
and no, it wasn't hrgiger that prompted deletion of post so no problems there.

in the end newtek will learn from this "upgrade season" no doubt so they'll be armed with a little more knowledge of how to approach such a task next time.

think i'll watch more over here in this section for a while..As they say "opinions are like *** h***s everyone has one."

oh yeah, the main reason i haven't gotten round to installing digital fusion+ yet is i run discreet paint & effect plus combustion 1 and combustion 2...and teach those apps for compositing currently though i will be conducting a fusion introduction course at college in the near furture so i'll get it up n running when i need to.

"thanks for the fish"

jr_sunshine
01-07-2004, 08:27 PM
NewTek is in a no win situation here. I am sure they understood that when they release info about [8] and stated an "estimated" delivery date for the product.

But... that is their problem. I am sure they calulated the cost of saying nothing and getting drilled continuously on the boards about being passed by the competition, or by stating features and setting release dates and getting drilled anyway on the boards for missing the date.

The positives are obvious: NewTek did an amazing thing by giving LW users the opportunity to get DFX+ for basically nothing. Mac users do have a beef since it is a PC product, but the intent is still there.

mrunion
01-07-2004, 08:36 PM
:D
Heaven forbid I make any statements that makes ANYONE think I am angry, upset, siding with anyone, or otherwise such feelings...

I have only one point:

I am a software developer. Granted, I am a "busines solutions" developer (databases, business rules, web applications, products for business use, etc.), but I still have some inclination of how software is developed.

I understand that estimates are estimates and I am NOT complaing in any way. I also am not trying to point fingers! Understand that now before reading on!

Anyway, if I were to tell my client (boss, testing group, whoever is waiting on the software) that an estimated release date was 6 months away, they would probably be OK. If I then tell them two weeks before the deadline arrives that I'm going to miss it, they would not be happy, but would probably understand. Now, if they ask for an "updated" release date and I tell them I'd have to get back with them in a couple of weeks, they'd probably begin to doubt my abilities. Why didn't I already have a new projected date ready for the "well, when?" question? I should know how mugh I have left and be able to judge the time remaining based on the progress so far, right?

It is a common practice in software development to set milestones at certain points along the development cycle. Milestones let project managers judge how well progress is going on these long projects. If you miss one by a week, you can probably make up the time. If you see a trend of missing milestones, you can expect a rough ride and start raising flags then.

My point?

Even though NetTek is working hard and doing a fine job, I still believe they should have known sooner that the release date was slipping and have an estimate for when it will ship. Now, I don't work for NetTek and maybe they DID know and chose not to say anything. Maybe it's politics. I have no clue, but....

NewTek, do as you must. I am eager, but waiting without complaining. Yes, I am frustrated. But not to the point of killing myself or my co-workers. I feel your pain. I just hope you all understand ours (the "waiters").

Thanx,
Matt

Jockomo
01-07-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by lonestar1
No, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the beta version often differs from the final release version. If Dan publishes a tutorial that works with the beta version but not the final release version, it does nobody any good, does it? (Remember the guys who suggested Newtek should pull buggy features from LW8 to get it out faster? That would affect any tutorials that use those features, right?)

I'm sure Dan, his publisher, and Newtek are able to set their schedules without noodling from you, me, or anyone else in this forum. Do you like it when outsiders come to your workplace and start telling you how to do your job?

Dude, it was more of a joke than an actual suggestion. Get over it.

Hervé
01-07-2004, 11:20 PM
So, that's it, enough verbal pollution...?

I re-ask (in case)..... Any release date at the horizon....

Later, Hervé

You should all relax. really. Steve, are you spending all day on the chat, looking for the smallest clue about LW8....... ? (kidding)

My grandfather has teached me something, never buy a cat in a box....

j3st3r
01-07-2004, 11:46 PM
The release date is on the horizon! But the horizon is so misty, that no one see it... :(

Anyway we would welcome constant updates from newtek regarding the full feature list (as it was promised), and the next estimated release date...

Maybe it will suddenly appear on the Home Page...who knows..

archiea
01-07-2004, 11:50 PM
it did as " later this year...'. No more 1st quater 2004.

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/8/index.php

Well, you asked.....

j3st3r
01-08-2004, 01:23 AM
Sad...

One of my eyes cries the other smiles.

Cries because it is not clear when LW8 will be around. I was expected LW at the end of January...

Smiles, because that could mean that there will be more features added.

But seriously. I would be glad, if I had a less capable LW8 than to wait another 3 month.

jr_sunshine
01-08-2004, 04:13 AM
Agreed.... to see the statement "..later this year" is VERY VERY VERY disappointing.

Only the developers know if they went crazy and added too many last minute additions and caused the release date to get pushed.

Think of it this way if you are part of the "get it right" or "not til its ready" crowd:

NewTek developers have all of the fixes to 7.5c ready, tested, and solid, but the entire release is being held up because the dev team added the dopesheet last minute and it is too buggy to release.

Should they hold the release up 3 months because the team added a last minute feature?

I say no. As disappointed as I would be not seeing the dopesheet in the [8] release, I would rather the feature be postponed until a point release so the rest of the application can be released.

Either way its a risk for NewTek but I believe the payoff on these last minute additions may not be as much as they are thinking. This is a classic delimma in Software development. They can continue to delay the application and face a growing crowd of upset users. Or.... they can remove the buggy feature and have some disappointed users, but a released LW [8] in their users hands. They can always tighten up those buggy features and put them into point releases. Proton said himself that [8] will have more frequent updates than the usual release of LW.

I think most of the upset users are so because they are excited about the [8] release and it's potential to ignite new undiscovered creativity. I don't think it's because anyone hates NewTek. I certainly don't.

pooby
01-08-2004, 04:36 AM
Our studio is about to start a job in a months time which we were hoping to use 8 for.
I guess that's not going to happen now, but what I would like to know is.
Will L8 be backwardly compatible with old set-ups using the orginal IK or does the new IK system completely replace it, making all scene files (using IK) prior to 8 useless?

can anyone answer this? I haven't seen it mentioned..

I for one, am very keen to have details on how this system works. and whether there is IK-FK blending etc.. plus, now the 'goal null' system seems to have been removed can you still make a chain with multiple contollers?

j3st3r
01-08-2004, 04:53 AM
Speaking for myself, I personally can`t afford LW. But all my employers purchased it based upon my recommendation. Moreover, in the hope of [8] I began to convert the folks at our company to LW modeler from maya modeler. But now they also will disappointed, and I don`t think, that the company will buy another few seats of LW, because (as they told me) they don`t think that LW has strong future or support, if they cannot release the software in time. :(

[Yoda voice ON]
Sad situation, it is
[Yoda voice OFF]

Hervé
01-08-2004, 05:10 AM
ok, so what do u suggest Jester ??

mkiii
01-08-2004, 06:33 AM
I have a suggestion. Since modeler has the least alterations, and is a separate app, Newtek could release that, and the new content now, for download only of course, so at least some of us can get our grubby hands on it.

Obviously, there will be no point in doing that if they intend to release the whole package next week, but no new dates have been forthcoming, so no one knows.

As has been pointed out earlier, a software developer works to a project with milestones & deadlines. Therefore they should be able to let everyone know what that date is.

j3st3r
01-08-2004, 06:40 AM
Easy. If you like LW, and have nothing to loose if you wait until finally it arrives, then w8 for 8.

If you are in a need of urgency, then migrate to another app. Give a test drive to Cinema4D, Maya Complete, Max or XSI. Although Max and XSI are much over the price tag of LW.

Look. I need fast skinning and character animation capabilities on the part of the software. Currently, I can deal with LW`s skinning and MotionBuilder animation system quite well. But if I were an entering user into the business, I would select Maya. But I fell in love with LW three years ago, and that three years was my most succesful years. So I`m gonna wait for a while. Then, maybe I`m gonna join to the maya community (XSI is too expensive)...

But that`s my personal opinion, not an advice...

Yog
01-08-2004, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by mkiii
I have a suggestion. Since modeler has the least alterations, and is a separate app, Newtek could release that, and the new content now, for download only of course, so at least some of us can get our grubby hands on it.


From what we know of the "enhancements" to LW8's Modeler I can't really see the point.

I already have DI's Power tools and Edge Tools that make up most of the "new" features in LW8, so I'm in no great hurry.

On the other hand, perhaps Newtek are taking note of the modeller backlash and are delaying the release in order to put in some home grown enhancements to Modeler. It would allow them to tell the nay-sayers "told you so" ;)
Might also explain the lack of a full feature list.

Here's hoping.

j3st3r
01-08-2004, 06:57 AM
And I hope they deal with the (to me) most frustrating problem with UV and subdivs...

SLAYER
01-08-2004, 08:16 AM
"Later this year" could be a long time out.
This will also affect book orders and everything else that was trying to work around the original date.

Book orders also did "pre-order-now-and-save" deals which not all can really afford but is too good to pass up.

All of this money could have been put towards more important items or even yet, another software.

This is like paying to be added to a list for a new 2003 Mtn bike and it takes so long that other bike companies have better 2004 models out now that one could have purchased instead.

archiea
01-08-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
[B....... But now they also will disappointed, and I don`t think, that the company will buy another few seats of LW, because (as they told me) they don`t think that LW has strong future or support, if they cannot release the software in time. :( ...... [/B]


Well, thats been a concern of mine that the impression of alot of people outside of this community is that LW's future is uncertain....

THX1138
01-08-2004, 08:42 AM
I have read and read all these posts for months now regarding the release of LW8. I have read all the different opinions as well as the few responses from NewTek personnel. I finally feel the need to respond in some way...

Something that folks need to realize. I am not sure what the percentage of posters here are simply hobbyists, what percent are professionals, and what percent are kiddies with hacked versions of LW. One thing I do know is that regardless if you are a hobbyist or a professional, we are the ones that support NewTek as a business. If we as customers do not feel the desire to buy their products, NewTek goes under. Business grad or not, that’s just simple common sense.

The point I am trying to make is this. It seems to be a more common occurrence in America today (i say America because this is where I live and have no knowledge of other countries) that businesses have taken an attitude of that we, the customer, should feel grateful they are providing this product or service to us. No no, you the business should feel grateful and count your blessings everyday that we purchase your products and support your business and lifestyle. See, that’s how business works, you need to win US over to hand over my money, not the other way around...

I say this simply because I have never been a person to sift through forums reading the mindless dribble that is sometimes posted but have unfortunately found it necessary to do so here at NewTek. If I want to know the status of the product release, I have to come in here. Why?? Should it not be posted on the LW page, and kept up to date on the status instead of changing release dates and the layout a tad hoping no one will notice that last week(approx.)its said 4thQ2003, yesterday(approx.)it said 1stQ2004, and today it says "later this year".... ?

I did not pre-order. I run a small effects company. Why did I not pre-order? Two reasons, I never pre-order ANYTHING. Those of you that did and are complaining, tough cookies. Why would you pay for something that does not exist yet? Makes no sense to me anyway. Second reason, my company is at a crossroads. We have been toying with switching to Maya for sometime now and need to make a decision quickly. Our hard earned money cannot be wasted trying out everything, we need one app.

Now before I get flamed, we/I have been w/ LW since approx 1995, so, we have been customers for a long time and have spent a pretty good chunk of money on NewTek products.

Each of you as an individual can choose whatever product you want, that is your option in a free country. However, for all you diehard LW loyalists that are simply falling in line behind NewTek blindly because you have been here a while,and not asking why we have not been kept more in the know, take a step back and try to take a fresh look at things.

I did not pre-order, so, it is not as important to me, although, they have been advertising and selling LW8 for what 6 or 7 months? I am not a software engineer, I don’t know, or care to know what things can happen behind the scenes of a products lifespan. For people here making excuses for this company because of “delays happen in the software world”, get a grip.

If I took a companies money and said their animation would be done on a specific date, do you think those people would care if it wasn’t finished on the day they arrived to pick it up because we had had some internal misgivings that delayed the work? NO!

On the other hand, if I called them in advance and explained the situation honestly, they would most likely be more understanding.

Staying with a product because you are "used to the interface" or because you have been a customer since "ver. 1" is the worse reason EVER.

I don’t want to start a "who's better" debate, but lets be honest, Maya is a far superior app, far superior company, and has the greatest potential for now and the future.

We were truly hoping LW8 was going to be a complete re-write to compete in today’s market, that dream went out the window when we first saw it at Siggraph. That coupled with the way NewTek is handling this release date thing has hurt the company more in the long run than I think they are aware.

In closing, everyone will have their opinion, including me, that’s the great thing about life, but, my money is on LW going the way of the Dodo....

eacide
01-08-2004, 09:07 AM
hey man, I am freelance, LW upgrade costs me 600 bucks every two years. I cannot afford Maya XSI or Max. I used to have Max until release 3. It was a great app but the bugs, the frequent and costy upgrades and its crappy renderer push me to go to LW.

If yon can afford any other app, buy it and expand your tool set. If you are a freelance or a studio it is a crucial thing. I have just bought Motion Designer and I am happy with it as well. It is very complementary to LW.

I am glad, not excessively but I am glad. LW 7.5 suits my needs. I could do amazing stuffs with it and I will keep on doing money-making stuffs with it until [8] is out. Afterwards, I will certainly feel uncomfortable when I'll uninstall 7.5 (I am kidding).

I am a bit disappointed by the lack of communication from NT about the delay, the status, the feature list and so on. But I don't want to bash them.
They must be in a terrible situation at the moment. It is a rush period. This may explain the poor communication.
Look at Proton for instance. He spends almost more time in airports and planes than "chained to his desk at Newtek". He seldom does his videos home, even on New Year's eve. We should thank him you for his efforts. No there are still people bashing and bashing :rolleyes:

I wanted to say that NT works for them (for their income) and a bit for us. They will not release cr*py stuffs. LW8 is a killer upgrade IMO though it is not quite perfect. Proton said on CGTalk that there will be more frequent free upgrades 8.1, 8.2, 8.5 and so on. They made the choice to upgrade Layout for 8. They cannot afford to wait one year or two, until 9, to upgrade the renderer and the modeler. Therefore, I am confident that we'll have a very nice surprice by the end of 2004:p

j3st3r
01-08-2004, 09:11 AM
THX, thx.

You summarized all of my feelings about the situation of LW8, and a situation of myself.

Thanks again.

We agree in all

THX1138
01-08-2004, 09:19 AM
I should clarify, I do tend to get a bit heated when discussing such things...

For our company, I think Maya is going to be the way we go, we have had a very succussful run these past few years so, yes, we can afford to go to Maya. My heart wants to stay with LW, but I just dont think it will be capable of handling our more and more intensive and complicated work we do here.

All that aside, NewTek needs to have a stellar year to stay in this market, no getting around that in my opinion.

Aegis
01-08-2004, 10:13 AM
THX1138: Your decision to go with Maya is understandable based on your requirements but Alias' long-term viability is as questionable (in my opinion MORE so) as NewTek's.

The 3D graphics industry has had only one major shake-up so far and something that wasn't even directly connected with it - the dot com bust weakened tech stocks and did a huge amount of damage to publicly-traded companies such as Alias/Wavefront and Avid. In addition as various world economies slid towards depression budgets were slashed all across the board in the media industry - for a while it looked like Alias and Avid weren't going to survive (buyout rumors were rife) but thus far they've weathered the storm, predominantly through slashing prices and attempting to catch the lucrative educational/semi-pro sectors in addition to turning up the upgrade cycle and making sure there were (at least) two paid-for upgrades per year.

NewTek is and has always been a privately owned company - admittedly smaller than its rivals but the fact that many consider LightWave a viable alternative to Maya, SoftImage and Max for a great number of applications is a testimony to the quality of the product and the resourcefulness of it's developers. The current problem facing LightWave is that it's had pretty much a year of little or no development due in no small part to the whole Luxology debacle - I don't know the details of what went on but I'm pretty sure it was real messy.

With the Luxology issue behind them, NewTek presumably had a choice - one year without significant development had left LightWave looking dated and uncompetative - so what do you do? Start a re-write immediately which could take 2 years to complete and leave NewTek's loyal customers without any new product for a long time? Or work with what you have and attempt to bring some badly needed (and much requested) features to the old framework?

This is what LightWave 8 represents to me - it's a stop-gap - it's not too pretty but it has some great new functionality and there's the promise of new features being added continuously throughout its life-span. A re-write of LightWave MUST be on the cards but given the situation, now was not the time to do it.

What's interesting to me is the growing trend of commoditization (is that a word??) that seems to be happening - MotionBuilder has appeared on the scene at a great price offering unmatched character animation functionaity. Luxology will be offering Modo (or whatever it ends up be called) as a powerful modelling tool with the promise of additional modules covering (potentially) animation, rendering etc. We already have plugin renderers to replace Maya/Max/Softimage's lackluster built-in efforts. The day may be coming soon when all-in-one solutions may be seen as too inflexible and largely redundant.

NewTek has always won custom by offering great value for money and feature-rich toolsets - you only have to look at the VT[3] (which wasn't hampered by the whole Luxology thang) to see they've still got what it takes - I have great confidence that they'll turn this situation around and in the meantime I'll use whatever tools I need to get the job done but I wouldn't write off NewTek - they've shaken the industry up in the past and I'm pretty sure they'll do it again...

THX1138
01-08-2004, 10:56 AM
Aegis :: You make some excellent points and bring up some issues I have not considered previously. Thank you for doing so!

I too hope NewTek will announce they will be starting a complete re-write from the ground up to release an all new version. Just them announcing this will keep me a LW customer. :D

I wont be looking for it of course, why would they say that, even if they are working on it, gives no reason to buy 8...

But, from a business standpoint, I have to look at what is good for us now, but also in the future. A more solid release date would do wonders for myself and many others in deciding what to do.

;)

jr_sunshine
01-08-2004, 11:16 AM
Aegis,

Very well thought out and clearly stated. Thank you.

I for one have been complaining in this thread but it is not because I dislike LW or that LW doesn't fill my production needs. I think NewTek is a unique breed which I hope can continue as they always have. I hope they will innovate into the future and make LW even better.

My complaint was primarily the lateness of the release. I am assuming they missed the date because they tried to put too much into the [8] release. The old feature creep problem many software projects have encountered. Eventually we are all just going to have to get over it and accustom ourselves to the fact that it could be much later than 1st Qrt 2004 before we get our hands on [8]. It angers me to no end, but .... what do you do?

KillMe
01-08-2004, 11:52 AM
thinking of the whole rewrite issue there were lots of rumours that that 8 was going to be the big rewrite and then lux happened and then no rewrite for 8, then modo appears out of nowwhere pretty quick?

might modo have been lightwave 8 the fabled rewrite? jsut witha new name and a new company?

newtek gets to keep what it had and all the rights there in to deveolp it but lost the new baby?

as for lightwave 9 would be ncie to hear even a rumour its gonna have a complete rewrite - not that i think lightwave as it is is that far off the competition

not sure what the architicture limits on the current app are might be nice if someone could explain them

as i would hope to see improvements to the renderer in both speed and quality and the trad off between them within the 8 cycle

also i would like edges but i guess that might be one of those limits but who knows would be nice if it did appear though

anyway i preordered 8 but i'm not complaining 7.5 is workingng nicely for me ( and infact i got 7.5 with the dfx+ offer so 8 is jsut a nice bonus to me ) but would be ncie to get my ahnds on those nice new features

Aegis
01-08-2004, 12:08 PM
OK, I'll bite :D

Well, Brad, Alan and Stuart are running the show over at Luxology so I'm pretty sure there'll be lots of functionality in the "Whisper Suite" that may have originally have been conceived for LightWave although I guess it's all been created from scratch but who knows? Stuart was the copyright holder for Modeler and Modo is Luxology's first release whilst radical updates to Modeler are suspiciously absent in 8, etc. etc.

If you're into conspiracies then it's a great story but not particularly relevant any more. What is interesting is that NewTek has just announced a shift in its Mac development to make OSX LightWave "native" - with 8's release some time real soon (we all hope) this probably refers to 8.5 or more likely 9.0 - if NewTek is gonna do a re-write then that would seem to be the opportune time...

Anyway, back to the real world - nothing to see here - move along...

Steve McRae
01-08-2004, 12:27 PM
. . . some of you may find this interesting - Chris Tome did a bunch of audio recordings on what he thought that the 'big five - Alias, Avid, Discreet, Maxon and Newtek - were doing right and wrong . . .

http://www.3dvfx.net/oct_03/the_big_five.html

archiea
01-08-2004, 04:22 PM
THX, Aegis... Bravo! Bravo.. really well put...

Interesting you mentioned the success of the VT.. The Toaster went through a similar drama ala luxology when some from the product and development team broke off and started Play. They developed Trinity which was vaporware for the longest time, and by the time it was released, I believe the PC toaster was coming out.. Then DV matured and suddenly the market was saturated.

Interesting as this is a similar situation to what happened to LW.. and look at how the toaster has survived.. granted with long spells of development time, but it has survived..

that was a funny time.. you saw alot of the newtek demo people jump ship to Play.. then Play shut down and some of them became rock stars (sorta), or became LW demo artist again... :rolleyes:
Ahh.. what an incestious business it is....

Zithen
01-08-2004, 04:55 PM
My opinion is that it was/is unfortunate that LW8 is not a rewrite, as it should be.
I feel that CG technology is reaching a plateau--there really isn't any new feature left or that we need in order for us to achieve a certain effect. The technology exists on the desktop to simulate practically anything you can imagine: skin, hair, smoke, fire, dynamics for cloth, muscles, GI, etc.

The main thing now is how the CG tools are implemented. New, innovative and intuitive ways to get the work done faster and more efficiently. This primarily is a UI issue and of course design and architecture.

This is LW's problem right now IMO...and it's somewhat of a disappointment to see these "features" with the same implementation philosophy: using numeric values, having to go through this plug-in, click this, this, and then type this parameter to get something done that should rather be very simple. It's not really seamless or intuitive regarding plug-ins and using Modeler and Layout. And since LW seems to be drawing its features more from plug-ins now, it's very important this approach changes.

From what I've seen, I like the Modo, pmG's messiah and XSI design and UI because their plug-ins are seamless in the system.

As I see programs with better UIs and designs, it gets more and more unsatisfying to stay with LW.

Bottom line, LW8 does not look very innovative or "new" to me at all from what I've seen. Even the graphic design of the LW8 UI looks mediocre. It doesn't look like a brand spanking new version I think we deserved after two and a half years of waiting and I am not salivating to get my hands on it. On the other hand, I was really looking forward to LW6 and LW7.5

Whatever happened between Lux and Newtek, I think ultimately Newtek dropped the ball on that one. Most important thing is to provide your customers with an upgrade they deserve, not something put together from existing plug-ins to compensate for lost development time, I don't care what the excuse is.

On the positive note, the new IK functionality, the Expression Node UI, and the Dopesheet in LW8 do look nice. They're features seemingly well integrated into the system and it's genuinely new stuff. But it just rubs me the wrong way when Newtek portrays already existing plug-ins as some way new cool feature that they put in LW8.

js33
01-08-2004, 05:23 PM
Well the delay of 8 is not good. Newtek is recovering from the devastation of the ENTIRE, not just some, but the ENTIRE programming team leaving. Most went on to form Lux, some went to other companies, some were laid off, and some just got out. I think the only person that stayed was Bob Hood.

There are not that many experienced 3D programmers in the entire world that aren't already working for other companies so it is not surprising that it took NT awhile to form a new team.

But from my view the features haven't changed much if it all since it was shown at Siggraph except for a few more plugins being added.

So most of the time has been spent to just make it work.

I really like NT but if this development cycle is the way things are going to be from now on the future doesn't look too good.

On the other hand if the new team is still wrapping their head around all the code and can get more proficient as time goes on the future may be brighter.

At any rate I've been using LW for 8 years now and have recently starting learning Maya so if NT falls flat I will have a future path.

Anyway best of luck to the relatively new programming team.

I like what I've seen of 8 but wish it wasn't still vaporware.

Cheers,
JS

hrgiger
01-08-2004, 05:46 PM
I would keep in mind that we're merely 8 days past the deadline that Newtek set for itself at this point.....I wouldn't be talking about the death of Newtek or Lightwave quite yet...

On the other hand and having said that , I hope we're going to stay well informed from Newtek during this wait period.

mkiii
01-08-2004, 06:10 PM
No. I don't suppose their hangovers have even subsided yet.

SamuraiSlayer
01-08-2004, 06:41 PM
well i think that after LW8 gets released, and maybe after a 2 week break, that a head start on LW9 would do NewTek good...

and since most of the people that use Lightwave come by to these forums, NewTek should have a forum section for LW called "LW9 Questions and Suggestions", to see what the people that actually use LW want and need in the next release

eacide
01-08-2004, 08:05 PM
This forum exists, it is called feature requests.

And before [9] there will be 8.1... 8.5 and so on. Some releases will fix bugs and some will be actual improvements.

Aegis
01-09-2004, 03:21 AM
I was just browsing CGTalk and came across these comments by Chuck which some of you may not have seen:


My own feeling on the matter, particularly after observing the team when they were gathered in San Antonio for several days the week before last (including Ino from Japan and our OpenGL team members from Austria), is that at this point in NewTek's history we have a constellation of management, developers and marketing staff who are committed to making LightWave the best that it has ever been for our diverse LightWave users, and that includes both addressing longstanding areas that have needed improvement such as character animation and the SDK, and taking the long view to bring innovative new features and capabilities to the product. The 8.0 release is but the first step in a new direction for LightWave, and one that we are taking mindful of both the best of the past to live up to and the deficiencies of the past to address and to change for the better.

Personally, I believe that if NewTek can navigate their way out of this public relations nightmare and deliver a stable and (relatively) bug-free version of 8.0 then the future will be pretty bright for 'Wavers...

colkai
01-09-2004, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Personally, I believe that if NewTek can navigate their way out of this public relations nightmare and deliver a stable and (relatively) bug-free version of 8.0 then the future will be pretty bright for 'Wavers...

And there, I think, is the heart of the matter.
There is so much speculation and complaints on the matter of the LW8 release at present that Newtek must be wondering what the heck to do to appease folks.
I will grant that there is a scarcity of information regarding the matter. Chuck did say that info would be up towards the end of the week, well, it's Friday so that doesn't leave an awful lot of time. I would be lying too if I said I didn't harbour some concern myself.

The info from Keyframe regarding the CD shipping and lack of a download is only fuelling problems. Personally, I think making the actual program available minus the content would ease matters.
If it is, as it has up to now, been just a directory, it may be an archive of that is all that is needed rather than a full-blown installer. Mind you, that is speculation on my part, so I guess I'm not helping. ;)

I think there is a real danger of all the bad vibes having a damaging effect on Newteks profile, regardless of if they deserve it or not.
Only time will tell how this will all pan out, I fervently hope it is not with even more diatribe once LW8 is released.
I'd like to believe, (call me naive), that the release will be much sooner than folks think and will be more than we could expect, (if not, I can see the need for hard-hats when visiting the forums). :p

archiea
01-09-2004, 04:50 AM
Aegis, again, thanks for the reminder... I think Chucks words express a frankness of the situation rarely seen from a company.

I think 8 does go a ways in addressing our needs given the hindered resourses. I think its going to take a couple of years for NT to re-emerge from their restructuring of LW and perhaps for 9.5 or 10 we can see the kind of results we are looking for. The results of a company who's effort can be placed 100% into the product and not be de-railed by internal affairs.

As far as the CD shipping, considering the integration of many plugins, etc, perhaps its not as easy as releasing just the executable... perhaps much of how the preferences, the plug-ins, etc have been altered so that it has to be a package instal.. Just my longshot of a guess..

colkai
01-09-2004, 05:12 AM
As far as the CD shipping, considering the integration of many plugins, etc, perhaps its not as easy as releasing just the executable... .. Just my longshot of a guess..

Yeah, that thought was floating around in my mind as I typed it too. ;)
I have always thought one of LW's strengths was that you could just grab a directory and not have to worry about registry settings and DLL's all over the place. Saved my butt a couple of times that! A doddle to backup too. :D

I have a theory info on LW8 will be out on Sunday...why then? Easy - I won't be home to check the groups. :p
(Well, that's usually how things happen for me. He, he, he.)

lonestar1
01-09-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
NewTek developers have all of the fixes to 7.5c ready, tested, and solid, but the entire release is being held up because the dev team added the dopesheet last minute and it is too buggy to release.

Should they hold the release up 3 months because the team added a last minute feature?

I say no. As disappointed as I would be not seeing the dopesheet in the [8] release, I would rather the feature be postponed until a point release so the rest of the application can be released.

Do you have work estimates for what would be required to remove the dopesheet, as opposed to fixing it? Have you talked to the developers, QA, and documentation about it?

That's what you would be asked if you were a real software development manager and went into a meeting with that recommendation. I don't understand why people think they can second-guess Newtek's decisions without knowing any of those things.

animotion
01-09-2004, 02:35 PM
Here is my 2 cents.

1 cent. I think that this situation has hurt Newteks Image some and people will referr to and remember this this for a long time, as in I hope this is not another LW8 situation.

2 cents. Personally, it would be more damaging for me if they released LW8 with annoying problems.

So, I would like LW8 as soon as possible like the rest of you but not at the risk of having bugs that will need a point relase to get me working again.

Animotion

jr_sunshine
01-09-2004, 02:36 PM
lonestar1,


Only the developers know if they went crazy and added too many last minute additions and caused the release date to get pushed.

I present the dopesheet scenario (pronounced "Straw man") for the sake of conversation. People are wondering about the release date. That is what this thread was about.

I understand software development and the responsibilities of the project manager. Thank you but I don't need you to explain it to me. NewTek is in a no win situation with this deal. If they are nursing a few bugs and know they can get [8] out in a few weeks then fine. But if the developers waited until they missed the Q4 2003 release estimate to tell NewTek leadership they were 4 months off on their release estimate....... oh boy. I believe lots o people have a right to be mad.

I will ask you what I have been asking others (which no one so far has answered): Did you pre-order the [8] upgrade?

Steve McRae
01-09-2004, 03:09 PM
. . . i did in June . . .

SamuraiSlayer
01-09-2004, 03:12 PM
the best part about pre-ordering is that since you already ordered 3 months ago and you've since forgotten it, when you walk out on the porch and see a UPS box that says LW8, you don't have to say... OMG!!! Now I gotta pay for it!!!!! OMG!!!! Because you've already paid for it

cresshead
01-09-2004, 03:40 PM
i pre odrered mine on the last day of the digital fusion deal
..which has since then been extended til lightwave 8 ships.

pity the same didn't happen to the motion builder deal eh!..that realy did end when kaydora said it would.
or the softaimage deal where you could get softimage 4 for half price...that deal ended too...

so really newtek have given extra opportunities for late adopters or those who are still hovering on the purchase of the upgrade or other software.

it'll be here soon..then the real work starts!

using it!

:cool:

Maxx
01-09-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
I will ask you what I have been asking others (which no one so far has answered): Did you pre-order the [8] upgrade?

Yes. In september, I believe. And you know what? I would like 8 now. However, I would also like a program that works. If it is, in fact, the dopesheet that is holding everything up, then let it. I've not used a dopesheet in animation. However, the number of people on this forum that swear that it's god's gift to animation and NewTek will go completely under and file bankruptcy if 8 doesn't include a dope sheet kind of make me believe that I could use it as some point. So, hey - it sounds as though it's one of the major sticking points right now, from the reports of those who've done the demos. If it's that important, then take the interest off my $500 NewTek - get the product out and out right. I got DFX+ in the deal, and I'm still learning how to use that. In the meantime, yes I want the new cloth dynamics - I have a catalog that I've been holding off on doing the cover for because I was waiting for the new features of 8. However, I'll push the date out by a week and use what I can from MD (which really blows, IMHO - however, those developers are gone now .. :D )

js33
01-10-2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Maxx
However, I'll push the date out by a week and use what I can from MD (which really blows, IMHO - however, those developers are gone now .. :D )


No not all those developers are gone. Daisuke Ino is the author of Motion Designer and is the one working on the new dynamics.

This is from the Dstorm web site. Kind of old info but can you believe that Motion Designer which was once a seperate plugin was going for $495 by itself? Now thats the price we paid for the update to 8 and got DFX+ as well. So that ought to calm down the whinning a bit. :D

Motion Designer for Intel / DEC Alpha / PowerMac
Suggested Retail Price...$495.00
Now available at your dealers.
MotionDesigner requires LightWave 3D 5.5 for Intel, PowerMac or for DECAlpha.
Motion Designer is a trademark of Daisuke Ino. LightWave 3D is a trademark of NewTek, Inc.
All other trademarks or registered trademarks are the property of their respective holders .
All Specifications may be changed without notice. (C) 1998, Daisuke Ino.

Cheers,
JS

archiea
01-10-2004, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by js33
No not all those developers are gone. Daisuke Ino is the author of Motion Designer and is the one working on the new dynamics.

This is from the Dstorm web site. Kind of old info but can you believe that Motion Designer which was once a seperate plugin was going for $495 by itself? Now thats the price we paid for the update to 8 and got DFX+ as well. So that ought to calm down the whinning a bit. :D

Motion Designer for Intel / DEC Alpha / PowerMac
Suggested Retail Price...$495.00
Now available at your dealers.
MotionDesigner requires LightWave 3D 5.5 for Intel, PowerMac or for DECAlpha.
Motion Designer is a trademark of Daisuke Ino. LightWave 3D is a trademark of NewTek, Inc.
All other trademarks or registered trademarks are the property of their respective holders .
All Specifications may be changed without notice. (C) 1998, Daisuke Ino.

Cheers,
JS


Hopefully You'd be able to say the same about Sasquatch and G2 in a few years!!!!!

:D

colkai
01-10-2004, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by js33
This is from the Dstorm web site. Kind of old info but can you believe that Motion Designer which was once a seperate plugin was going for $495 by itself? Now thats the price we paid for the update to 8 and got DFX+ as well. So that ought to calm down the whinning a bit.

True, true, it is easy to forget that - then of course add in a beefed up FX-Break and the other plugins that are now integrated in LW8.

You are looking at a great deal, with free 'point' updates to LW8 as well, you are effectively getting some serious free software! :D
Lest we forget - that is not including all the work done on LW itself and all the new content.
Yeah, I know, people say they are not bothered about that, but they would be if it was missing ;) - Oh, did I mention the videos being pumped out?

I'm as guilty as the next guy for wondering what Newtek are doing, but realistically, you'd have to be pretty hard-nosed not to admit that, regardless of timing & info or lack thereof, it's just a little bit sweet! :D

Hervé
01-10-2004, 05:14 AM
well I think that we could say anything here, but nothing is going to make NT rushing to make LW8 ready to download or ship... just to make a few people like us happy....

How many LW owners out there ? 100,000...? so really just a few complained (us, he he)

Hervé
01-10-2004, 06:00 AM
100 replies.....; he he

SamuraiSlayer
01-10-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
well I think that we could say anything here, but nothing is going to make NT rushing to make LW8 ready to download or ship... just to make a few people like us happy....

How many LW owners out there ? 100,000...? so really just a few complained (us, he he)

We are the only ones complaining, but do you really think that the other 99,500 people are just fine and dandy with LW shipping sometime at the end of eternity? I'm sure they're having these same frustrations that we're complaining about and they just don't know where to go to complain.

Now do you think its that NewTek isn't going to rush just because a few of us, or is it that they are trying to please those in the "Feature Requests" forum?

I had to make some sense of all of that for you. ;)

SamuraiSlayer
01-10-2004, 09:38 AM
edit: the other 99,900

100 subtracted from 100,000 ;)

Tesselator
01-10-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Aegis
I was just browsing CGTalk and came across these comments by Chuck which some of you may not have seen:

Yep! read it the day he posted it... NIce!

Personally, I believe that if NewTek can navigate their way out of this public relations nightmare and deliver a stable and (relatively) bug-free version of 8.0 then the future will be pretty bright for 'Wavers...
I agree but for the assupmtion that they are in any kind of
public relations nightmare. Everyone and I do mean everyone,
is perfectly happy except for a few trouble makers, ignorants,
and makcontents. I do not mean to use the term "ignorants"
here in a derogatory way however I do the other two. If you
are one of the "unhappy" ones who are busy spending your
time posting negative feelings of discontent and in some
cases what seems like shere hatred then you have to ask
yourself which category you fit into.

I fully expect the troublemakers and malcontents to take
direct issue with this asertion. That cannot be helped. It's
by thier very nature that they do so. Those who just simply
don't know or are ignorant of what to expect from and how
to deal with a 3D software vendor, a lapsed estimate for
release of a product, or the excitement and ease of just
following a group of bashing idiots, should probably take
a more relaxed position.

No promises have yet been broken. Noone is in any danger
of losing thier money and everything is as most people can
recognize, proceeding smoothly, without incident, and about
at the usual pace for these kinds of things. For those extra
lucky enough to have preordered and recieved DF+ with a
fully working LW7.5c to play with in the meantime all I can
express is envy.

You lucky lucky puppies!

j3st3r
01-11-2004, 12:30 AM
It was a little bit attack like comment, Tess.

Those who are ignorant, etc. are unsatisfied because the release date was delayed many times. I hope that Chuck and Proton will update the feature list to a complete, comprehensive feature list, so we, so called "ignorant, troublemakers" could spend our waiting time with much more relaxed pose.

I`m not completely satisfied with LW7.5c, but I can do my job (with many workarounds, or using other programs (motionbuilder, wings3d, Maya)). But I really like to see, what is really that my company going to pay for, if we order the upgrade. I think it`s an understandable POV.

I agree, that the meaningless, causeless attacks are unnecessary on this forum. But the clients may have different opinions to those who are extremely satisfied with LW, Newtek, and it`s marketing politic. And that doesn`t give the right to others to call them ignorant, troublemakers, etc.

We all want a better LW, and for the sake of this, I think, the negative opinions serves the evolution as well as the positive opinions.

Tesselator
01-11-2004, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
It was a little bit attack like comment, Tess.

Not at all. You do have troubles understanding me though I
have noticed. No Problem. To clarufy: That was not an attack
nor was it specifically referring to anyone in particular.

Those who are ignorant, etc. are unsatisfied because the release date was delayed many times.

There hasn't actually been a release date set yet at all. There
was one and only one "estimate" given. Although some want
to argue over the wording and declare it an actual Release Date
Declaration . This is old news though and Chuck has already
explained and expressed his conserns for the misinterpretation.

--- Unpleasent remarks snipped---

I`m not completely satisfied with LW7.5c, but I can do my job (with many workarounds, or using other programs (motionbuilder, wings3d, Maya)). But I really like to see, what is really that my company going to pay for, if we order the upgrade. I think it`s an understandable POV.

For sure! I agree. This is different from what I was describbing.
A request or two for information made in a polite way sounds
like a healthy thing to me.

I agree, that the meaningless, causeless attacks are unnecessary on this forum. But the clients may have different opinions to those who are extremely satisfied with LW, Newtek, and it`s marketing politic. And that doesn`t give the right to others to call them ignorant, troublemakers, etc.

Again I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood me. I
take it that english is not your native tounge? Well, that's not
a bad thing, but perhapps then you shouldn't react on the
assumption that you understand it.

Do you believe that I am really suggesting that people who are
simply asking for product information are bad in any way?

Please take more time to read and understand my sentences
if you are going to reply to them. Or please feel free to PM me
and ask me what my meaning is before you fire off a rebuttle
like this.

We all want a better LW, ---SNIP---

Thank you,

archiea
01-11-2004, 04:33 AM
heh heh...OOOOOOKKKKAAAAYYYY... I just gotta interject here.....

Ok, j3st3r quite gentlemanly here stated...

"I agree, that the meaningless, causeless attacks are unnecessary on this forum. But the clients may have different opinions to those who are extremely satisfied with LW, Newtek, and it`s marketing politic. And that doesn`t give the right to others to call them ignorant, troublemakers, etc. "

And Tess... you stated;

"Again I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood me. I
take it that english is not your native toung? Well, that's not
a bad thing, but perhapps then you shouldn't react on the
assumption that you understand it. "



Ok, so what DO we call this remark, Tess? This obviously condescending and mildly insolent remark regarding J3's, uh, alleged shall we say, poor command of the english language. Or, perhaps I too have a problem with the english laguage.....

Tess, you KNOW what you are doing. I've seen your masterpieces over at CGtalk as well. Could we just be a LITTLE nicer to each other here? Please? I'm tired of seeing whats often started as a passionate debate turned into a closed or removed thread because someone's gotta get fresh, whether its done outright, or via the passive aggressive route. :rolleyes:

Chuck
01-11-2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
[B
Those who are ignorant, etc. are unsatisfied because the release date was delayed many times. [/B]

No, it wasn't. The estimate was originally given at NAB on the stream of 4rth quarter 2003, and I never varied from that estimate, and neither did anyone who actually works here. And the estimate has been revised just once, and was always an estimate.

Karmacop
01-11-2004, 07:13 AM
Exactly Chuck. Anyone who says the release date has changed several times is just wrong and obviously haven't been reading the press releases. Considering the change in staff and software in the world today, a month or two delay really isn't much.

eacide
01-11-2004, 07:24 AM
I am 40 months late on one of my industrial project (initial time scale 45 months, we are foreseeing that the facility will be commissioned 85 months after inception) and we have announced that to our client :D

The contract review meetings are a bit tense currently.

Rock on NT ;)

nixx
01-11-2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Exactly Chuck. Anyone who says the release date has changed several times is just wrong and obviously haven't been reading the press releases. Considering the change in staff and software in the world today, a month or two delay really isn't much.

hehe... watch it Karma, you 're contradicting yourself here ! In your first sentence you say that there was never a delay, and in your second, you say that a couple of month's delay isn't much...
:)

nick

Chuck
01-11-2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by nixx
hehe... watch it Karma, you 're contradicting yourself here ! In your first sentence you say that there was never a delay, and in your second, you say that a couple of month's delay isn't much...
:)

nick

No, he didn't say anything at all about "no delay" in the first sentence: "Exactly Chuck."

Nor in the second: "Anyone who says the release date has changed several times is just wrong and obviously haven't been reading the press releases." Saying that the date has not changed "several times" is something entirely different from saying that there was no delay. He said no such thing.

Karmacop
01-11-2004, 09:12 AM
Thanks Chuck :)

Some people seem to believe there have been several delays and that these delays have been going for months. The truth is that there has been only one delay, and it's only been 2 weeks so far.

nixx
01-11-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
No, he didn't say anything at all about "no delay" in the first sentence: "Exactly Chuck."

Nor in the second: "Anyone who says the release date has changed several times is just wrong and obviously haven't been reading the press releases." Saying that the date has not changed "several times" is something entirely different from saying that there was no delay. He said no such thing.

Ok, there is definitely tension in the air...

Chuck - I was joking.
Karmacop - if I offended you, I apologize.

Try and relax guys. :rolleyes:

nick

Karmacop
01-11-2004, 09:30 AM
Sorry nixx, I thought you were being serious.

My tension comes from people complaining :p

hrgiger
01-11-2004, 10:45 AM
I don't have any problem with the delay. After all, I just finally got around to ordering my upgrade a few weeks ago. so in a sense, I've only been waiting a few weeks. But I sure hope that there will be a more complete feature list soon or some more videos showcasing new Lightwave features.
Chuck, is the online manual going to be released before the software ships? It sure would be nice to be able to get up to speed on any new features or workflow changes before I install 8. Or any new documentation for lscript there is.

nerdyguy227
01-11-2004, 12:35 PM
Newtek did not post more than 1 or 2 delays, but the tech suport and sails people have been saying things like "maby this month" for the last 5-7 months, yet that is probably all they were informed so the complainers probably took that as NewTek directly telling them.

hrgiger
01-11-2004, 12:40 PM
True Nerdyguy. When I called a few weeks ago to order my new USB dongle, the guy on the phone at Newtek asked if he could do anything else for me. I said yeah, you can tell me when Lightwave 8 will be out. And he said hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

Tesselator
01-11-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by archiea
heh heh...OOOOOOKKKKAAAAYYYY... I just gotta interject here.....

Ok, j3st3r quite gentlemanly here stated...

"I agree, that the meaningless, causeless attacks are unnecessary on this forum. But the clients may have different opinions to those who are extremely satisfied with LW, Newtek, and it`s marketing politic. And that doesn`t give the right to others to call them ignorant, troublemakers, etc. "

And Tess... you stated;

"Again I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood me. I
take it that english is not your native toung? Well, that's not
a bad thing, but perhapps then you shouldn't react on the
assumption that you understand it. "



Ok, so what DO we call this remark, Tess? This obviously condescending

Nope. Not at all!
Believe me, when I decide to be condesending or rude in some
way YOU WILL KNOW IT! You won't have to read anything in
to it like you're doing here.

and mildly insolent remark regarding J3's, uh, alleged shall we say, poor command of the english language. Or, perhaps I too have a problem with the english laguage.....

Maybe, doesn't sound like it though. It just sounds like your
reading things into it that aren't there. And this REALLY should
have been PMed... I'm sure noone else want to read this!

---SNIP---

Chuck
01-11-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by nerdyguy227
Newtek did not post more than 1 or 2 delays, but the tech suport and sails people have been saying things like "maby this month" for the last 5-7 months, yet that is probably all they were informed so the complainers probably took that as NewTek directly telling them.

I would appreciate any details on either our sales staff or our tech support staff saying "maybe this month" for the last five to seven months. I speak with them regularly and they have all shown every awareness that our estimate was no more specific than fourth quarter, and I've not been aware of any of them departing from this, especially not five to seven months ago. They are very good, conscientious folks and I cannot imagine why they would have done so.

Chuck
01-11-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by nixx
Ok, there is definitely tension in the air...


No tension here...


Chuck - I was joking.

Sorry I missed that. It looked like you had misread what karmacop was saying...

Tesselator
01-11-2004, 03:15 PM
Sooooo...

A man walks into a bar takes a seat at the bar and orders
a burbon, a wiskey, and a beer (like in the song) He sits for
awhile sipping heis beer and the bartender notices strange
noises comming from under the mans hat. After some time
the bartenders curoisity had build to unbarable levels and he
asked the man about it. The man blushed with embarrassment
and reluctantly removed his hat. And there on top of his head
was was a perfectly formed bullfrog. Perfect in every way
except that the frog appeard to be growing out of the mans
head. Like a tumor exersized with frog DNA or something.
The bartender trying not to react badly to the very odd
situation asked calmly: "How did this all start?"

And before the man had a chance to reply to the bartenders
inquery the frog animated wildly opened its mouth and spoke:
"As a pimple on my butt".

archiea
01-11-2004, 08:27 PM
"Ok, so what DO we call this remark, Tess? This obviously condescending

Nope. Not at all!
Believe me, when I decide to be condesending or rude in some
way YOU WILL KNOW IT! You won't have to read anything in
to it like you're doing here. "

You didn't answer my question, Tess, what DO you call it when you basically imply that J3's must not have command of the english language for not interpreting your comment to your liking?

Look at how Chuck , Nixx and Karm explained both their differences and misundstandings to each other without needing to make a comment that one or the other must have some deficency regarding the english language. Tell me what i'm mis-reading here...

Hervé
01-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Hey, I hope nobody 's mad with me.... I am a very cool guy.... hum, maybe the coolest on earth.... maybe.... unless somebody says No, it's me.

A bit later, Hervé

PS. all you People have no reasons to act that way....

Tesselator
01-12-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by archiea
"Ok, so what DO we call this remark, Tess? This obviously condescending

Nope. Not at all!
Believe me, when I decide to be condesending or rude in some
way YOU WILL KNOW IT! You won't have to read anything in
to it like you're doing here. "

You didn't answer my question, Tess, what DO you call it when you basically imply that J3's must not have command of the english language for not interpreting your comment to your liking?

Look at how Chuck , Nixx and Karm explained both their differences and misundstandings to each other without needing to make a comment that one or the other must have some deficency regarding the english language. Tell me what i'm mis-reading here...
:confused:
There are billions of people in the world with less command of
the english language than Jester. His is actually pretty good.
It's not a put down in any way to recognize and comment on
on someones ability to understand a written sentence. Neither
is it to suggest that if they are unsure to ask by PM. Maybe just
I think so living in a country for the last 16 years where almost
noone speaks English. Heck I don't know. But again, if you would
like to address me personally on the way one of my messages
comes across to you please use the Private Message (PM)
facilities of this site. I'm pretty sure noone else want to read
it. I know I wouldn't if it were between any two others.

I do indeed apologize if my comments sounded condesending
to you or anyone in any way whatsoever. :)




PS -- We all love you Hervé !!!

Hervé
01-12-2004, 02:47 AM
aaahhhh, feel better now......

nerdyguy227
01-12-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
I would appreciate any details on either our sales staff or our tech support staff saying "maybe this month" for the last five to seven months. I speak with them regularly and they have all shown every awareness that our estimate was no more specific than fourth quarter, and I've not been aware of any of them departing from this, especially not five to seven months ago. They are very good, conscientious folks and I cannot imagine why they would have done so.

I remember someone on a post I made saying that the persion on the phone said NT is bata testing. That was in April!

I called to get the specail upgrade to 8 when it ships and DFX+ , Irene King said (in early November) "Probably late November into very early December"

I've heard of some other times on the fourm that I cant remember were they were also.

archiea
01-13-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Tesselator
:confused:
There are billions of people in the world with less command of
the english language than Jester. His is actually pretty good.
It's not a put down in any way to recognize and comment on
on someones ability to understand a written sentence. Neither
is it to suggest that if they are unsure to ask by PM. Maybe just
I think so living in a country for the last 16 years where almost
noone speaks English. Heck I don't know. But again, if you would
like to address me personally on the way one of my messages
comes across to you please use the Private Message (PM)
facilities of this site. I'm pretty sure noone else want to read
it. I know I wouldn't if it were between any two others.

I do indeed apologize if my comments sounded condesending
to you or anyone in any way whatsoever. :)




PS -- We all love you Hervé !!!


The point was to make a comment to raise the public awareness here of the unecessary jabs people take of each other, and to make people accountable for their comments. Plus I was seeing a pattern of how a recent thread was closed at CGtalk where your involvement seemed to have fuel the fire a bit. Similarily in this thread where one of your generalized statements (where the people who complained of NT recent dealings are "trouble makers, ignorants,
and makcontents.", and since I was unhappy, I guess i'm one of those.) was debated by another forum member was met by your belittling comments regarding his command of the english language, basically, because he disagreed with you. Something that seemed so unecessary.

its just calling people on what they say and making them accountable.

j3st3r
01-13-2004, 11:39 PM
Yes, sur me inglesh si gud enaf, I sooppze two. :))))