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James Moore
05-27-2019, 11:03 AM
I am sorry to have to ask what seems to me a basic question.

How do you remove a texture map?

For example, I accidently clicked on texture map for Luminosity instead of the Color and added a Texture map. I can't seem to turn off the Blued T now. I can set the image to 'none' and that seems to stop the mapping from occurring but that bloody T is blued as if a Texture map is being used.

I must be missing something obvious, right?

Markc
05-27-2019, 11:14 AM
Shift-T to remove it.....:)

Lightwolf
05-27-2019, 11:32 AM
As in, shift-click on the [T] button. That also works for the [E].

Cheers,
Mike

James Moore
05-27-2019, 11:35 AM
I wonder how long I might have had to hunt an peck to figure that out. Thanks much!

Markc
05-27-2019, 11:55 AM
As in, shift-click on the [T] button. That also works for the [E].

Cheers,
Mike
Doh.....thanks mike, I just realised my description wasnít clear.
Iím not even sure what shift T on the keyboard does.....:hey:

Lightwolf
05-27-2019, 12:31 PM
I wonder how long I might have had to hunt an peck to figure that out. Thanks much!

Well, it is documented in the manual. Just saying. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

James Moore
05-27-2019, 12:51 PM
and I'm glad you said it cause....

well, what constitutes the official manual? I'm working with LW2018. Originally, for 'the manual' I was using

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/

and if I type in the search bar "remove texture map" I don't see anything that jumps out as the obvious article

now there is LW2019

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2019/

and if I type in "remove texture map"

I get apparently a more appropriate result "texture editor" but a quick scan doesn't reveal the answer.

I asked here, and 'poof' like magic the answer came to me lickety split for which I'm very grateful :)

I'm challenging my knowledge of Lightwave these days and I really would like to find an easy way to get where I want to go ...

Lightwolf
05-28-2019, 02:44 AM
I have to admit that:

a) this should be more prominent at the start of the docs and
b) a website is not as inviting to read through as a "proper" manual.

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2019/appendices/user-interface-conventions

Cheers,
Mike

James Moore
05-28-2019, 05:26 AM
Thanks for digging that out of the Appendices for me but,I hate to say it , I read through (admittedly quickly) the User Interface Conventions and I didn't see Shift-LMB to turn off Textures or Envelopes. I missed it maybe? I dunno Ö

I'm now trying to figure out how to map an image sequence with alpha's onto a surface so that the surface disappears and only the image sequence appears. I've done this years ago, and I did it yesterday, but on a second attempt yesterday it eluded me. Seems to be a combination of Surface Texture map, Clip map, and a Transparency texture map? I'll bang my head on it again this morning and figure it out....

...yes, yes, I'm reading the manual as we speak on clip mapping

Then there is getting hair to flap back and forth as a head moves forward and back using fiber fx and bullet. I found a video online but it was in german :)

Thanks for your feedback!!

Lightwolf
05-28-2019, 05:37 AM
Thanks for digging that out of the Appendices for me but,I hate to say it , I read through (admittedly quickly) the User Interface Conventions and I didn't see Shift-LMB to turn off Textures or Envelopes. I missed it maybe? I dunno …
No, you didn't. It actually isn't there, my bad. I thought it was (it used to be there).

Edit: You can also right click on the button though.

Cheers,
Mike

James Moore
05-28-2019, 06:07 AM
I spend so much of my time learning softwares (Resolve/Fusion has been a recent head banging experience) and I'm constantly skimming manuals, searching the intertubes, and, mostly, hunting and pecking about interfaces trying to get what is in my minds eye to screen. Forums are a great resource and one does get the 'read the manual newb' meme thrown out a fair bit. Often it is very helpful, that meme, as you get pointed to the specific areas of the manual that are of interest. I've also been known to ask some pretty simplistic questions (like how the heck do you turn off a texture ;)) I got that meme offered me when I was trying to use one grade for multiple versions of a show and it led me down a whole aspect of Resolve's colour structure that was incredibly deep and layered.

right clicking a highlighted Texture button doesn't turn it off on my machine. Shift clicking does and it is proving to be very useful to me as I go down the rabbit hole of trying to get the alpha to disappear the rest of the object.

Sensei
05-28-2019, 06:19 AM
a) this should be more prominent at the start of the docs and
b) a website is not as inviting to read through as a "proper" manual.

Help should be displayed in bubble help appearing when somebody hovered UI element by mouse etc. etc. Just saying.. ;)

ps. I never read LW docs (or manual), except LWSDK of course.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 06:25 AM
Since I may still have your ear and I know you've been around this software a long time (I remember you from waaay back)

Why, if you start a completely new scene, add a 2D box (either rotate it 180 degrees to camera or make double sided) change the material to standard with the default gradient background happening. turn transparency to 100 percent. The object doesn't disappear completely, even if you turn off seen by's in object properties and turn all other variables to 0. I can't make it disappear with the transparency values. I'm sure I figured out a way years ago....

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Sensie, I get no help bubbles, anywhere. Don't see a way of turning them on or off either....

Sensei
05-28-2019, 06:31 AM
Hi Sensie, I get no help bubbles, anywhere. Don't see a way of turning them on or off either....

I meant what should be done, but is not.

RebelHill
05-28-2019, 06:37 AM
Transparency 100, refraction index 1. Or just use object dissolve.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 06:42 AM
that's the key, refraction index of 1. I thought it was that but dragging the slider about yielded no love. Object dissolve not an option as I want the alpha'd sequence to remain (texture map the sequence into transparency and inverting it appears to work).

thanks!!

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 06:46 AM
Set the Refraction Index to 0 or 1. But I don't think you want to use the Transparency channel for this - you should use the Clip Map option.

Sensei
05-28-2019, 06:46 AM
...in LW 2018-2019 you can simply use Clip in Surface's Node Editor..

James Moore
05-28-2019, 06:57 AM
That sounds promising. What tool would you suggest for mapping a sequence with alpha's to a surface?

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 07:09 AM
You are right there. Use the Clip Map. :) Use the "T" on your color channel (or node) to get your graphic on the surface the way you want it and then copy those settings to the Clip Map and instead of using the color sequence use the alpha sequence.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 07:10 AM
Set the Refraction Index to 0 or 1. But I don't think you want to use the Transparency channel for this - you should use the Clip Map option.

Hi Tim,

Refraction of 1 works but not 0. The clip map option seems only to cut a hole in the object where the alpha is as opposed to leaving the texture map on and the rest of the object disappearing. inverting the layer doesn't actually invert anything but the rather fills the hole with the texture map.

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 07:20 AM
Hi Tim,

Refraction of 1 works but not 0. The clip map option seems only to cut a hole in the object where the alpha is as opposed to leaving the texture map on and the rest of the object disappearing. inverting the layer doesn't actually invert anything but the rather fills the hole with the texture map.

I think you might be running into a problem with PNG's. Try a different image format as your clip map.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 07:22 AM
PNG's are indeed the sequence format....

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 07:27 AM
PNG's are indeed the sequence format.... Batch process them into JPG's (or anything other than PNG) and see if that corrects your issue.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 07:32 AM
I rendered them out of LW. I was thinking of trying LWTGA32 but am wide open to suggestions

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 07:38 AM
I rendered them out of LW. I was thinking of trying LWTGA32 but am wide open to suggestions

Yeah I think more info is needed. Like some screen shots as what you are actually trying to do. Clip mapping is pretty straight forward. :)

James Moore
05-28-2019, 08:18 AM
I am actually trying to take a lens flare created in LW and map it on to a plane in another scene. Your question prompted me to set up a quick test which I've done and highlights some issues I have been having in general regarding alpha'd sequences rendered out of lightwave.

The basic process:
In a fresh scene create a sphere and render it moving a bit across the frame (I would imagine a single still would suffice but since I'm looking at using sequences, sequences would be better.) and then create a new scene load a flat plane and map that rendered ball sequence onto the plane. The goal is to see only the ball and not the object it is mapped on to.

Step by step:
Create New Scene
Make Sphere (give it a pretty color :))
Key frame simple move
Render image sequence with alpha channel premultiplied (I need premult because I'm actually using lens flares that I want to map and straight gives me just a big hole)

Create a new scene
create a plane to map sequence on
change planes surface to standard
texture map sequence into "color" in surface editor (autosize it)
texture map sequence into "transparency" (autosize it and invert it)
luminosity 100
refraction 1
all other's 0

It works. Clip mapping doesn't. I'm glad I went through this process because I discovered that using 32 bit PNG's gave me PNG sequences that were not fully keyed, they were partially transparent (this explains my import issues into Resolve but I digress). I discovered that DPX 10' s don't have an alpha but 32 bit Targa's seem to work swimmingly!

Shabazzy
05-28-2019, 08:40 AM
Hi James,

I'm a bit surprised that no one has covered the clip map issue correctly since it's pretty much common knowledge.

The reason you're having problems is due your usage of 32bit images. Clip maps don't use alpha channels, they use 1bit (black and white) images to "mask out" the area where you want your image to appear (or disappear).

You would use them like this:

1) Prepare two sets of image sequences. One set which contains the full colour 24bit images and another set which contains 1bit (black and white) silhouettes (masks) of the 24bit image files. It's these 1bit files that will be used as clip maps. The black areas will show the 24bit images and the white areas will "erase" everything else and render those areas as invisible.

2) Load both sequences into LW via the Image Editor and ensure that you set each listing to "Sequence" in the Image Editor settings.

3) Apply your normal 24bit image to your object as an image texture via the Standard material node "Colour" texture channel (you don't HAVE to use Standard but in this case it's just easier) and tweak the settings how you like.

4) Then apply the 1bit image sequence to the clip map setting and tweak these settings in the same way as the 24bit setup, then viola.

Hope you find this useful.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 08:51 AM
I do find this useful. This is the first I've heard of 1bit image sequences. You would think a clip map would treat the alpha in the image the same as the 1 bit sequence (i.e. isn't the difference between 24 bit and 32 bit the inclusion of the alpha info? Come to think of it that may be wrong as I could have sworn my 24 bit PNG's had alpha's (they just never fully keyed - the hinted at problem with PNG's above?)

I'll give the 1 bit separate alpha stream a try. The nice thing about images with alpha's embedded is the interoperability of those sequences elsewhere (like Resolve).

Lightwolf
05-28-2019, 09:02 AM
The reason you're having problems is due your usage of 32bit images. Clip maps don't use alpha channels, they use 1bit (black and white) images to "mask out" the area where you want your image to appear (or disappear).
I would highly recommend against using 1-bit images. While a clip map is indeed either on and off, and 8-bit image will actually give you smoother edges (especially as you zoom in) once AA is computed.

Cheers,
Mike

RebelHill
05-28-2019, 09:19 AM
Yeah... your image needn't be black or white pixels only. If you have shades of grey in there, then anything over 50% is treated as white, and under as black.

Otherwise, you can just use a map to clip exactly the same as you would for transparency.

Shabazzy
05-28-2019, 09:34 AM
I do find this useful. This is the first I've heard of 1bit image sequences. You would think a clip map would treat the alpha in the image the same as the 1 bit sequence (i.e. isn't the difference between 24 bit and 32 bit the inclusion of the alpha info? Come to think of it that may be wrong as I could have sworn my 24 bit PNG's had alpha's (they just never fully keyed - the hinted at problem with PNG's above?)

I'll give the 1 bit separate alpha stream a try. The nice thing about images with alpha's embedded is the interoperability of those sequences elsewhere (like Resolve).

You are correct that the differences between 24bit and 32bit are that 32bit's include alpha channel data.

I would say however that on reading what you are trying to accomplish by mapping the lens flare onto a plane (presumably to overlay it over a background image of some sort) that your methodology is probably not the best way to go.

It sounds like what you're trying to do is composition work and LightWave isn't really a compositor.

It CAN do SOME compositing but it's not really ideally suited for that job. I'd use either an effects package or your video editor's composting tools to achieve the desired effect.

If you REALLY HAD to do it in LightWave, then the way I'd do it is to use the Compositing tab of the Effects panel (Ctrl+F7).

You will need....

1) Your background plate (a 24bit image sequence, video or still of what will be under the lens flare).
2) Your 24bit lens flare image sequence
3) Your 8bit alpha channel sequence of the lens flare
4) Load them into LightWave using the Image Editor and make sure they are set to "Sequence" in the settings
5) Open up the Compositing tab (Ctrl+F7)
6) Change the "Background Image" setting to your Background plate sequence, video or still.
7) Change the "Foreground Image" setting to your 24bit lens flare sequence
8) Change the "Foreground Alpha" setting to your 8bit alpha lens flare sequence

The sequences in the Compositing Tab will not be affected by the LW camera, so no matter where you put or rotate the camera the image sequences displayed will be not be affected.

To see the effects of the Compositing Tab set up in Layout without having to re render everything you might have to change the Camera view Background setting in the display options (d key).

Under the Camera View tab in the display options panel, you should see the "Camera view Background" setting, change this to "Background Image" and you should see the Camera viewport in Layout updated to reflect your Compositing Tab settings.

Provided all the resolutions of your sequences are the same, you should have no problems.

Once you're happy with this setup you can render it out to a file.

Shabazzy
05-28-2019, 09:41 AM
I would highly recommend against using 1-bit images. While a clip map is indeed either on and off, and 8-bit image will actually give you smoother edges (especially as you zoom in) once AA is computed.

Cheers,
Mike

Yes, ofcourse your right about that. I forgot about the AA factor. Good catch.



Yeah... your image needn't be black or white pixels only. If you have shades of grey in there, then anything over 50% is treated as white, and under as black.

Otherwise, you can just use a map to clip exactly the same as you would for transparency.

Again, true.

It doesn't need to be shades of grey either since it's really the pixel luminance values that are considered by LW.

James Moore
05-28-2019, 11:03 AM
You would think the texture map would treat an image sequence with an embeded alpha and execute the key accordingly but inverting a transparency layer is needed.

I seem to have it working pretty good.

Shabazzy, in this case I am doing a pretty basic composite and yes other programs are much better suited to doing a straight composite. I have, in the past, tracked footage in AE, exported the camera track to LW and then composited with the final image in the BKG.

In this case I liked the look of the camera flare I set up (basically a glowing orb) but you can't take the glowing orb and move it about in 3D space due to the nature of camera flares, so, I create the look, map that onto a plane, and then fly that plane about in 3D space always keeping it facing the camera. I've got this crazy project where I need to fly an eyeball in space seeing all kinds of weird things. One trick I want to try is to take effect footage (such as an action essential explosion) map it on to a sphere so I can fly about it in 3D.

but, but, I still haven't found 'how to remove a texture map' in the manual :)

plus a few other items...like the fiber effects thingy....

THANKS for all your help and suggestions, I really do appreciate it and I learned, I learned baby!

Lightwolf
05-28-2019, 11:15 AM
but, but, I still haven't found 'how to remove a texture map' in the manual :)

I did, it's in the glossary. I've also reported the issue.

Cheers,
Mike

James Moore
05-28-2019, 11:24 AM
it's always in the last place you look. Is Mr. Bowie still authoring the beast?

Sensei
05-28-2019, 11:45 AM
Refraction of 1 works but not 0. The clip map option seems only to cut a hole in the object where the alpha is as opposed to leaving the texture map on and the rest of the object disappearing. inverting the layer doesn't actually invert anything but the rather fills the hole with the texture map.

To invert alpha you need to use nodal setup 1-scalar..

Sensei
05-28-2019, 11:47 AM
Batch process them into JPG's (or anything other than PNG) and see if that corrects your issue.

JPEG does not have any alpha channel..

Sensei
05-28-2019, 11:54 AM
I would highly recommend against using 1-bit images. While a clip map is indeed either on and off, and 8-bit image will actually give you smoother edges (especially as you zoom in) once AA is computed.

Clipping is computed at very very early stage of surface evaluation. At least should be computed at early stage of evaluation by renderer. So, if surface is absolutely transparent (with IOR 1.0), it could be and should be clipped, as it'll simply save rendering time. Depending on complexity of surfacing, it might save a lot of time during rendering complete final image sequence.
When I made by own LW-compatible renderer, clipping was one of the first things done after ray-tracing (ray-casting actually) from ray-origin in specifed ray-direction after hitting mesh. It saves entire bother with surface evaluation.

Example is rendering of tree with multi thousands of leafs with clip map versus the same setup with transparency.

Tim Parsons
05-28-2019, 09:26 PM
JPEG does not have any alpha channel.. Any black and white image can be used as a clip map - JPG or otherwise..

James Moore
05-29-2019, 10:47 AM
regarding "reading the manual"....

I figured I would, starting in Modeler. I get to Modeler Edit menu and they start talking about Syncmesh tools. Ok, I'll try them out but...

I can't find a way to activate them, the manual says nothing that I can discern

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2019/getting-started-with-modeler/introduction-to-modeler/modeler-edit-menu/syncmesh-tools

Tim Parsons
05-29-2019, 01:40 PM
regarding "reading the manual"....

I figured I would, starting in Modeler. I get to Modeler Edit menu and they start talking about Syncmesh tools. Ok, I'll try them out but...

I can't find a way to activate them, the manual says nothing that I can discern

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2019/getting-started-with-modeler/introduction-to-modeler/modeler-edit-menu/syncmesh-tools

IMO, the best way to learn is hit every button and see what it does first and after about a couple hours of that start a project - real or fictitious. :)

Shabazzy
05-29-2019, 06:34 PM
regarding "reading the manual"....

I figured I would, starting in Modeler. I get to Modeler Edit menu and they start talking about Syncmesh tools. Ok, I'll try them out but...

I can't find a way to activate them, the manual says nothing that I can discern

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2019/getting-started-with-modeler/introduction-to-modeler/modeler-edit-menu/syncmesh-tools

As far as I know the SyncMesh framework is present by default only with specific tools.

I see it's implementation present in "Modify > Translate > Axis Translate" for example, but you won't see it within the "Move" tool, as another example, because that tool hasn't been updated to take advantage of it (yet?).

James Moore
05-29-2019, 06:37 PM
I started another thread asking this question specifically. Basically, at the bottom on the page it lists the path's to each individual tool. Since I was in the manual reading about the Edit functions I thought there would be an option to open a thing called Symcmesh tools. Instead each tool is in it's own particular location (i.e. modify) and never makes a reference to "syncmesh".

Shabazzy
05-29-2019, 06:50 PM
I think SyncMesh is one of those frameworks that you only really notice if you've used LW for a long time prior to version 11.5.

I remember when they implemented it and how it blew my mind when I saw how much better it's tools were to use over the "old" toolsets.

I think if you never really gone through the "bad old days" then SyncMesh isn't something you'd really notice or appreciate as much as us LW oldie timers. I think the manual only references it just to give long time users a heads up on it being a new (as it was back then) feature as opposed to something you really should know how to use.

James Moore
05-29-2019, 07:00 PM
It simply confused me. I'm reading through the manual and saw the syncmesh stuff and thought 'that's interesting, let me try it out' I go to the edit window and try to find it and fall down a rabbit hole feeling like a newb who isn't smart enough to open a simple tool as documented in the manual :)

Tim Parsons
05-29-2019, 09:33 PM
It simply confused me. I'm reading through the manual and saw the syncmesh stuff and thought 'that's interesting, let me try it out' I go to the edit window and try to find it and fall down a rabbit hole feeling like a newb who isn't smart enough to open a simple tool as documented in the manual :)

Yeah - Modeler has a lot of tools for sure. After some use you'll discover your favorites and hardly use the rest. :)

jwiede
05-29-2019, 10:05 PM
I think SyncMesh is one of those frameworks that you only really notice if you've used LW for a long time prior to version 11.5.

I remember when they implemented it and how it blew my mind when I saw how much better it's tools were to use over the "old" toolsets.

I think if you never really gone through the "bad old days" then SyncMesh isn't something you'd really notice or appreciate as much as us LW oldie timers. I think the manual only references it just to give long time users a heads up on it being a new (as it was back then) feature as opposed to something you really should know how to use.

Then there's zero justification for it being given such prominence in the Modeler documentation. The docs are literally making a big deal about something that really adds NOTHING useful to the user's knowledge of Modeler or even those tools, unfortunately. There's a LOT of that kind of thing in the current Modeler documentation, and they make those docs a very disjointed, confusing read -- obvious, user-needed and expected basic workflows and reference info are missing or deeply obscured, but obtuse-to-irrelevant notes and details are everywhere and given "top billing".

Shabazzy
05-30-2019, 07:49 AM
Then there's zero justification for it being given such prominence in the Modeler documentation. The docs are literally making a big deal about something that really adds NOTHING useful to the user's knowledge of Modeler or even those tools, unfortunately.

In the case of SyncMesh I think you have a point, but....


There's a LOT of that kind of thing in the current Modeler documentation, and they make those docs a very disjointed, confusing read -- obvious, user-needed and expected basic workflows and reference info are missing or deeply obscured, but obtuse-to-irrelevant notes and details are everywhere and given "top billing".

... to be fair, what you're (in my view correctly) expecting is (in some cases) delivered. Genoma has a mini tutorial and examples of use, so does Bullet and OpenVDB (yes I know these last two are Layout tools but the principle still applies).

I think what's needed is another Essential LightWave book for the newest versions of LightWave, one that everyone could benefit from.

BeeVee
05-31-2019, 05:55 AM
Hi all,

I have left the Syncmesh page as is for the time being but added links to all the tools to make it easier to consult their documentation. When they were first added in 11.5, these tools added a different way of working to traditional Modeler tools so merited an introduction. The explanations on that page are general to all the Syncmesh tools.

B

Shabazzy
05-31-2019, 06:18 AM
Thanks Ben (I'm really famous cos I was interviewed by Dan Wood and Ravi Abbott of The Retrohour Podcast fame) Vost.

We're much obliged.

BeeVee
05-31-2019, 08:20 AM
Awww, I was hoping I was famous for more than just that... ;)

B

Shabazzy
05-31-2019, 09:57 AM
While I've got you Ben, is there any chance you could put a mention somewhere in the manual regarding what's happened to VIPER?

There's mention of it's use by other tools in the manual but but nothing pertaining to it directly. I can't seem to access it anywhere, even the default keyboard shortcut doesn't work. It seems to have been deprecated or something.

Tim Parsons
05-31-2019, 07:30 PM
While I've got you Ben, is there any chance you could put a mention somewhere in the manual regarding what's happened to VIPER?

There's mention of it's use by other tools in the manual but but nothing pertaining to it directly. I can't seem to access it anywhere, even the default keyboard shortcut doesn't work. It seems to have been deprecated or something. Yep - it's gone. It had some uses, especially with hypervoxels and particles. VPR pretty much does everything VIPER did.

Shabazzy
06-01-2019, 05:05 AM
Yep - it's gone. It had some uses, especially with hypervoxels and particles. VPR pretty much does everything VIPER did.

Cheers Tim.