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Paul Goodrich
04-29-2019, 08:10 AM
Hi,

Got an issue with DOF. I'm not sure if it's sub pixel issues or something else. I can get it out of my render without DOF but not with it. I've tried increasing the light samples, camera samples, despike, denoise and various other brute force techniques. But nothing seems to work 144843144846144845144844

Any ideas? Thanks

RebelHill
04-29-2019, 08:25 AM
Thats a reflective surface, yes? Looks like that's where the noise comes from. Look at the raw RGB buffer, with dof on and turn up camera samples till thats satisfactorily smooth, then look at the spec buffer(s) with dof off and turn up reflection samples till thats acceptable. Also be sure to bring your recursions down as low as you can get away with.

There're a few things be aware of balancing cameras, lights, reflections, etc in the new renderer. you might find the tuts linked in the sig helpful to get yourself into optimal results territory.

lardbros
04-30-2019, 06:46 AM
Any chance you could post your render settings? Just wondering what your sampling settings are for:

Camera
Reflection
Adaptive Sampling Threshold

Looks to me like camera sampling issues, but it's difficult to tell. Also, reflection samples look like they're too low. For DoF, cam samples might need to be up to 64 or 128 to get rid of moderate noise. (Or even higher for lots of noise, or cleaner noise.)
When using DoF though, as it requires lots of camera samples, it means you can potentially reduce other areas of sampling, like reflection/SSS/refraction etc.

Also, are you using an environment light? Or GI?

Paul Goodrich
04-30-2019, 08:14 AM
Thanks everyone. Rebel Hill, I've got your tutorial and am working my way though it. Very helpful, but a lot of it uses environment lighting or HDR lighting. I'm not using GI as this is animated and am just using a studio'ish lighting set up. Here's some of the settings I've tried.

Camera tried Samples 1-8 , up to 1-32 and 3-32
Tried :Adaptive Sampling Threshold .08 to .01 and also .03

Reflection 6
Refraction 6
Subsurface 2


2 Area lights

the one called area samples 16 up to 32
the called side (which doesn’t hit the wall) 4 to 16

there’s also two spot lights in the scene which are excluded from everything except the eyes.

Thanks for the suggestions and I'll give them a try.

RebelHill
04-30-2019, 08:23 AM
HDR, enviro, regular lights... no difference, the renderer always works the same for all these types.

But trying these samples here, those there, shooting in the dark will get you nowhere (at least not fast)... check the "Sampling workflow" video... there's a straightforward workflow that works on every single scene, no matter the contents or lighting.

gerry_g
04-30-2019, 11:20 AM
"Camera tried Samples 1-8 , up to 1-32 and 3-32
Tried :Adaptive Sampling Threshold .08 to .01 and also .03"

Had DOF problems recently, took MIN SAMPLES up to 64 (which overrode the max samples which i left at 9) this worked better than light or reflection samples tinkering at canceling out noise, enviro light is not same as other lights as its calling on the BG or whatever HDR you have loaded and it is more affected by radiosity and prone to noise

Paul Goodrich
04-30-2019, 12:34 PM
Well, I thought I had gotten it. But no. Here's the settings I tried and it's better but still there.

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"Camera tried Samples 1-8 , up to 1-32 and 3-32
Tried :Adaptive Sampling Threshold .08 to .01 and also .03"

Had DOF problems recently, took MIN SAMPLES up to 64 (which overrode the max samples which i left at 9) this worked better than light or reflection samples tinkering at canceling out noise, enviro light is not same as other lights as its calling on the BG or whatever HDR you have loaded and it is more affected by radiosity and prone to noise

Thanks, I'll ry it. But I'm not using GI or envio lighting. Just two area lights and two spots only on the eyes.

- - - Updated - - -


HDR, enviro, regular lights... no difference, the renderer always works the same for all these types.

But trying these samples here, those there, shooting in the dark will get you nowhere (at least not fast)... check the "Sampling workflow" video... there's a straightforward workflow that works on every single scene, no matter the contents or lighting.

Thanks, I'll go look for it. I know it's on one of drives here somewhere, hmmm

Paul Goodrich
04-30-2019, 12:39 PM
Found it. Watching now.

Paul Goodrich
05-01-2019, 06:41 AM
OK, the video helped and I was able to get my render time from 6m to 1.5m with the same quality. But still have the same problem. It's in the Specular Direct buffer is where I see the issue. The alpha and depth buffers are all white and the reflection buffer is all black. I'm down to just one area light lighting the scene and am slowly increasing the samples. Thanks again.

RebelHill
05-01-2019, 07:25 AM
No worries... in which case it's mostly gonna be your reflection samples that you want to turn up... for ease, do it without DOF enabled, so you can see just the results of the spec noise, then back on, and up camera samples if noise returns after adding the DOF. And yes... in my vid I show the alpha buffer as an "easy view" for checking the DOF noise, obvs in your scene, the whole screen is occupied, so you can use the RGB, raw colour buffer instead in the same way.

RebelHill
05-01-2019, 08:15 AM
Oh, btw... I notice in your screenshots that your lights arent visible to camera... so what's being reflected in the shiny surfaces? Are you by any chance using luminous geo, because if so... don't. Lose it, and make lights visible.

Paul Goodrich
05-01-2019, 11:24 AM
Yes, I fopund that some of the geo was luminous. It came in that way and I didn't catch it. However there might be some others. I didn't realize that I should make the lights visible to camera. Thanks

RebelHill
05-01-2019, 11:30 AM
You make the lights visible to make them appear in reflections too, rather than using lum geo standins like old days. The old days way will make things sad.

See vids 22 and 35 for more details.

Paul Goodrich
05-01-2019, 11:34 AM
will do, thanks again.

Paul Goodrich
05-02-2019, 12:52 PM
Got it looking good with no DOF. But still having fun with DOF.

Paul Goodrich
05-07-2019, 02:03 PM
Well this is a bit of a disaster. I can get it looking pretty good with out using DOF so I decided to try and render out a depth pass and comp it in After Effects or DaVinci Resolve. However when I set up exrTrader to render out the passes as exr files, Lightwave crashes as soon as the render starts. It then seems to corrupt something and I have to un-install and re-install Lightwave to continue. Trying to render out a depth buffer with the Lightwave native render also seems to crash things. db&w are aware of my issue. Could be yet another fun Lightwave/Mac thing.

Paul Goodrich
05-07-2019, 02:25 PM
Well it looks like something has corrupted my file. I opened up another scene (still with out exrTrader right now) and no crash. Not sure where to go with this now. How can you fix a file when you don't know when or how it went bad? Crap

gerry_g
05-07-2019, 02:51 PM
you seem to be in LW 18+, so why not just set up a regular buffer from the render options panel under buffers just tick depth turn on VPR and select the depth channel, then set VPR to normalise display and adjust the min and max settings, then you can tick the buffer in render outputs and set a file path for it to render a stack, I do this all the time, its very easy now

gar26lw
05-07-2019, 02:56 PM
are you using source control? i would highly reccomend doing so. something simple like file hamster will work well for what you would need.

XswampyX
05-07-2019, 06:13 PM
Well this is a bit of a disaster. I can get it looking pretty good with out using DOF so I decided to try and render out a depth pass and comp it in After Effects or DaVinci Resolve. However when I set up exrTrader to render out the passes as exr files, Lightwave crashes as soon as the render starts. It then seems to corrupt something and I have to un-install and re-install Lightwave to continue. Trying to render out a depth buffer with the Lightwave native render also seems to crash things. db&w are aware of my issue. Could be yet another fun Lightwave/Mac thing.

I would try setting your minimum and maximum camera samples to the same setting. If you have a low minimum setting and a high maximum setting and the 1st sample is the same as one next to it then it will be flagged as OK even though it isn't. Then when you change the camera view the value will change dramatically on the pixel and through further sample resolve to the opposite of it's neighbour. Then you move the camera again and the pixels 1st value is the same as it's neighbour so is rendered = bad.

lardbros
05-08-2019, 10:20 AM
Oh, btw... I notice in your screenshots that your lights arent visible to camera... so what's being reflected in the shiny surfaces? Are you by any chance using luminous geo, because if so... don't. Lose it, and make lights visible.

Sorry to add more confusion, but lights don't need to be set to 'visible to camera' to be seen in reflections. That is only to make the 'light-shape' visible to the camera, it WILL appear in reflections still even if this is unticked.
If you tick visible to camera on, you will then get a visible square/sphere when you move a light into the frustum of the camera.

Paul Goodrich
05-09-2019, 01:14 PM
OK, I think perhaps we may have another issue. Which I've seen on other threads and will look up after this post.

I removed the DOF and up'ed the light samples to 128 and the camera is at 8 min/max. Looking at the buffers I've now have got no noise on the spec direct, the Raw RGB or the shadow passes. However, my final render has what looks like flickering white noise in it. It's very noticeable in the red chair which has pixels of white which go on and off from frame to frame. Also major crawlies on the back ornate frame. I did enable despike at 0.8 tolerance but they're still there. Any ideas? Thanks so much for everyone's help so far.

Paul Goodrich
05-09-2019, 03:00 PM
I Got these: https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?155992-This-has-got-to-be-a-render-bug&highlight=white+spikes
post #4 and yes, my camera does go through the area light.

I finally got the non DOF render to look fairly good. Had to up the reflection samples to 16. So the crawlies on the frame are mostly gone but the render times are creeping up. And this is before I try and add DOF. I still have some jitter on the edge of the frame. Trying some higher settings to see if it cures it. Also my problems with exrTrader were a RAM issue (as in not enough on that computer). Unchecking the save all buffers cured it. Thanks Mike.

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This is because of animation. I could render a still at lower settings and be fine. But no, I have to try and do an animation render.

Paul Goodrich
05-14-2019, 09:31 AM
Update. I can get the scene looking good with no DOF. Camera samples 9, Reflections 16 and Area light 128. Fairly decent render times. However, when I add LW DOF I get crawlies all over the frame in the back ground. I've tried the same principals that worked for the no DOF but no luck. I went up to Camera 7, reflections 288 and lights 2048. This was 9 minutes to render on a iMac Pro 36 core, 256 Gb ram. So I'm thinking at this point that there's something wrong with the object itself. I looked over the geometry and nothing really stands out other than it's bloody huge (757,579 polygons). This was a object I purchased from the web. So i didn't build it. I tripled the non planer polygons and can't seem to see anything that might be causing this. So now I'm trying to do the DOF in post (testing both After Effects and DaVinci Resove). Thanks again for everyone's help it makes it easier to figure out what's gong on.

Paul Goodrich
05-16-2019, 09:29 AM
Well fun new issue. I've gotten it to work with using post DOF in After Effects. However I've now noticed that the Fur is crawly and flickering. I've tried upping settings but no luck so far. My settings are:
Light 256
Camera 15
Reflection 20, Refraction 2, Subsurface 1

Any ideas? What should I increase for Fiber FX quality? The rest of the scene is fine. Thanks.

lardbros
05-16-2019, 09:45 AM
Usually upping the minimum camera samples help with FiberFX jaggyness, but not sure how high it should be as it depends on your FFX settings too.

Paul Goodrich
05-16-2019, 12:53 PM
Would adjusting the fiber width or size help? Not sure what would make it better, thanks.

lardbros
05-16-2019, 01:07 PM
Not sure mate... Try it, but FFX is a tricky one as it can get a bit jaggy with lower sampling settings.
Making it thicker may help the renderer trace the lines though, although not 100% certain

RebelHill
05-16-2019, 02:07 PM
Yeah... once you get down to any kind of detail that is, in screen space terms, less than 1 pixel wide... the required AA (camera sampling) goes up considerably.