PDA

View Full Version : David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?



robertoortiz
04-24-2019, 07:07 AM
Mr David Riddlen posted this poniangt comment of this thread from the facebook Lightwave 3d support group on facebook.:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ligh...2423310530326/
It a great comment on the status of Lightwave in the industry and how their marketing and communication departments sometimes seem to be asleep at the wheel.
NOTE: Ironically, I need to state that I LOOVE this forum.
And you guys are doing a great job at it.

Here is his full post
"David Ridlen It comes down to jobs. If I needed to ramp up a crew for a project, there is WAAAY more experienced Maya talent available. The best Lightwave artists I worked with have moved to Maya or Houdini long ago, because development for those apps kept up with the needs of feature production, where there is the highest benchmark for CG. LW dev stumbled for too many years, which I think had a lot to do with a programmer being appointed head of dev, instead of someone who understands production. NT finally got back on track after someone with production experience was head of dev. I dont know why Powers suddenly left, but it is not a good indicator.
Yes, LW fans are biased. The only reason LW is chosen over the other major apps was because it was cheaper. It is not generally "better" or "easier," although you may think that, because it is what you are most familiar with. Each app has pluses and minuses. I worked with Maya and Max teams who were just as capable of turning out excellent work, in the same amount of time, if not better or faster. But LW has not had the same degree of support internally or from third parties.
I am the last person I can find who is regularly using LW in feature production. And I dont mean for just an occasional model or render. I supervised the most extensive use of LW in a feature film, which was Sin City. But I saw no mention of it at Newtek's Siggraph booth that year, while Eyeon had Sin City demos prominently looping on several screens. I contributed work to Pixel Magic for 17 years, which is the only company to use LW for key FX and character/creature animations in major studio movies. I dont mean just hard surfaces and set extensions, or just for shorts and direct-to-cable. I mean theatrical features. And yet, Newtek has always been notoriously "absent" from support of the companies I worked for. Any time we offered our work for LW demo reels, NT was not interested. When we compiled feature requests, or contacted Newtek about projects with special requirements, NT was difficult to uncooperative. I dont know why. But has been their own funeral. Third party support from other apps keeps dwindling. LW is capable for certain tasks. But so many senior artists and post houses roll their eyes at the mention of NT.
If I ramped up a big project using LW, and say I wanted to accomplish dozens or hundreds of FX shots for a feature, I expect NT to step up and say, "Great, what can we do to help?" But they have never exhibited the least interest in anything I worked on, including the Oscar winning Green Book(?).
The best example of support I ever experienced was from the RealFlow guys at Next Limit. They were AWESOME! 19 years ago, a few of us were using RF v1 for some direct-to-video projects, and I started emailing support about issues. They were in the opposite day zone in Spain, and would usually patch the software overnight, sending me fixes daily and weekly! I sent over 80 emails, and they greatly developed RF, because they were ambitious, and recognized I was pushing the limitations of RF, and that it was mutually beneficial to cater to the needs of our production. They gave me free licenses since I accidentally became their main beta-tester, and produced cool stuff for their reel, which contributed to them expanding their market. That is how it should work.
If Newtek is not aiming to compete in production, then who is their demographic? Who here relies on LW for their animation/FX career?"

gdkeast
04-24-2019, 11:41 AM
As a relative newcomer to LW, I don't know all the backstory, but I have nothing but admiration for Mr. Ridlen and the work he has done with LW. A case can be made that he is sort of the last of the Mohicans. I guess it all comes down to perspective. He has traveled the road much farther than I have and from his perspective, he sees the good, the bad, and the ugly. From mine, I just see a 3D program that I'm using to get into the world of CGI with an eye for creating my own films, maybe not feature films, but short films that I can pull off on my own. TBH, I was concerned about where LW was heading, but with 2018 and 2019, it was hard not to feel that NT was repositioning LW for the future. And I still hope that's the case. He is definitely one of the bright stars for LW and you'd think someone would be reaching out to him for marketing purposes alone. Personally, I would love to see him put together some tutorials on his work flows and would gladly pay for them. I don't yet rely on LW for my livelihood, but I hope to someday. I think it's a great program that just needs some love.

3dhotshot
04-24-2019, 11:44 AM
Wow this post is spot on I'm not a big fx guy like mr Rid but over the years you will notice maybe 10 or less tutorial features in 3D world at a time years ago when yes lw was far ahead of other apps, yet poor 3rd party support and the lack off dev improvements as compared to modo for example pushed lw further and further down the list and we are right now at the bottom of the list. Look at C4D / 3dsmax / maya etc why do they have every single plugin under the sun coming out of every crack and hole at the speed of light! It has taken sometime and luck - only recently have 3rd party apps started to look decent in terms of support in and out of lw
( via fbx alembic ) ~ List of Vfx software integration with lightwave (https://previz.wixsite.com/lightwavevfx/vfxsimtools)

P.S. This is why people have looked at me like I'm an alien when they see I'm working in Lightwave yet am still producing renders way faster than both C4D and the Modo Team at last studio I worked in LW at 4k res was pushing out photo real renders in 5 to 7 minutes whilst modo at 15 to 20minutes at same level of quality, as for C4D team renders where extremely long and washed out not looking correct. yet theY had to purchase plugins
to do what I was doing natively inside lightwave 2015.3 and this was during 2016/2017/2018.

P.P.S. It is a promising time though for lw it is sad what has happened to a great platform with the fastest best native renderer available for many years was for a time. 2015.3

P.P.P.S. I had actually left my last studio since when the C4D Team arrived they where given awards yet I was still far ahead in terms of speed, turnaround time, quality and crushed nearly every project worked on.
yet they always pushed me to move over to C4D, I was promised many awards and never got any, Did not feel right working there when lightwave was winning over a few million big ones every time for the C4d guys to get handed over the follow through projects so I left. Also they would get a week to work on a pitch lazy *** c4d team, but for lightwave 2 days or 1 day and you get work that c4d guys cannot do. all look in silence and walk.

This is the F...kd up world we live in pffff !!!

gdkeast
04-24-2019, 11:56 AM
This is actually one of my favorite quotes from Mr. Ridlen. I don't know him but he seems like a pretty straight shooter.

David Ridlen LW post:
I just despise the rigid complexity of all things computer related, that inherently oppose spontaneous creativity. The majority of my time is spent troubleshooting and cursing. I rarely get to enjoy the work since it is usually a process of such incremental achievement, I dont get to sit back and take in an overall result with surprise. Each iteration is usually a small step forward, 'Ok, that one glitch is fixed... but now that is screwed up. That doesn't look right.' Redo, render it again, and again, and again... until I cannot see it objectively anymore. I stare at the final animation looping, trying to see it objectively, but I can't tell the effect of what I did anymore. The process is so mired in technical convolution, I find computer animation to be too much of an endurance test to fully enjoy, as opposed to more organically immediate art forms. It requires a certain, high-functioning form of OCD ("perfectionist" is the more flattering term), that takes precedence over social life, proper sleep, and trying to not throw things. I think I have just been doing it too long.

Chuck
04-24-2019, 01:47 PM
Honestly not sure where to start with a reply to this. I guess just to note that all LightWave management up to and including Rob Powers had production experience. None of them were a programmer. Jay Roth, Rob's immediate predecessor sometimes gets mistaken for being on the engineering side since he co-founded Electric Image and has led other development teams, but check his IMDB page and his background of production experience with both practical and CG visual effects is extensive. He just happens to be a user who can also engage the technical side to design and specify projects and lead them.

It is also the case that NewTek has always maintained film and television effects production users on our beta corp, and also users from a number of other industries that use 3D. We work to be as responsive as we can to the feedback in beta and to feedback from the full userbase. If anyone feels disappointed with the interactions, we're sorry that's the case, and we'll work to do better within the resources we have.

3dhotshot
04-24-2019, 01:52 PM
A trip down memory lane when this was happening .... at the the #1 spot in film industry cg goes to lw

There's no doubt that 1999 is shaping up to be one of the best ever
for NewTek. Hot off of the independent research study that found
that Lightwave 3D dominates more than 50 percent of seats in the
broadcast and film industry, NewTek will introduce a new version of its popular
program and some new products. Let the revolution begin!

A recent independent study by Jon Peddle Associates
showed that LightWave 3D has a greater than 50 percent hold
on the film and bioadcast 3D market! "LightWave 3D has the
largest installed base far and above any other 3D package on
the market according to om recent study on 3D applications."
said Jon Peddle Associates' senior analyst. Wanda Melom
Studies like this and years of hard woik seem to be paying off
for NewTek, which lias taken many gambles and now looks to
score the jackpot 1

gar26lw
04-24-2019, 08:33 PM
Wow this post is spot on I'm not a big fx guy like mr Rid but over the years you will notice maybe 10 or less tutorial features in 3D world at a time years ago when yes lw was far ahead of other apps, yet poor 3rd party support and the lack off dev improvements as compared to modo for example pushed lw further and further down the list and we are right now at the bottom of the list. Look at C4D / 3dsmax / maya etc why do they have every single plugin under the sun coming out of every crack and hole at the speed of light! It has taken sometime and luck - only recently have 3rd party apps started to look decent in terms of support in and out of lw
( via fbx alembic ) ~ List of Vfx software integration with lightwave (https://previz.wixsite.com/lightwavevfx/vfxsimtools)

P.S. This is why people have looked at me like I'm an alien when they see I'm working in Lightwave yet am still producing renders way faster than both C4D and the Modo Team at last studio I worked in LW at 4k res was pushing out photo real renders in 5 to 7 minutes whilst modo at 15 to 20minutes at same level of quality, as for C4D team renders where extremely long and washed out not looking correct. yet theY had to purchase plugins
to do what I was doing natively inside lightwave 2015.3 and this was during 2016/2017/2018.

P.P.S. It is a promising time though for lw it is sad what has happened to a great platform with the fastest best native renderer available for many years was for a time. 2015.3

P.P.P.S. I had actually left my last studio since when the C4D Team arrived they where given awards yet I was still far ahead in terms of speed, turnaround time, quality and crushed nearly every project worked on.
yet they always pushed me to move over to C4D, I was promised many awards and never got any, Did not feel right working there when lightwave was winning over a few million big ones every time for the C4d guys to get handed over the follow through projects so I left. Also they would get a week to work on a pitch lazy *** c4d team, but for lightwave 2 days or 1 day and you get work that c4d guys cannot do. all look in silence and walk.

This is the F...kd up world we live in pffff !!!

2015 renderer. needs someone to add pbr material nodes to it.

i wonder if you would be matching them in the new renderer? would/do you still use lw with the new renderer?

erikals
04-25-2019, 02:45 AM
But they have never exhibited the least interest in anything I worked on, including the Oscar winning Green Book(?).
it puzzles me, and makes me wonder if Ridlen contacted a NT employee on the lower latter. who knows.  https://i.imgur.com/B8QSFA7.gif

marketing aside, i feel LightWave is going in the right direction.
now they just need to figure out what to do to Modeler. (rewrite/upgrade/unify)

hrgiger
04-25-2019, 05:31 AM
Speaking of prominent LW users, I see Chris Jones just posted an amazing new Human rig in Blender.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAM7mF2v7dE

gar26lw
04-25-2019, 11:13 AM
yeah, sorta sucks. I see Bryphi pulled all his lw videos on youtube, which were a great resource.
Louis D jumped, which is a shame as his blog was great. Now chris.
You can read them chatting about that here plus a bit more info
https://blenderartists.org/t/human-progress/1143224/11

so, if all these great artists who shared tips and tricks for lw, showing what can be done are gone, then what?
i used a lot of these for ref when needed in projects.
lwg really needs a slap across the face. wake up! you’re doing it wrong.

prometheus
04-25-2019, 02:21 PM
It just need a native GPU supporter ..Fast rendering, some modeling tools in layout and further enhancement on non destructive modeling, some tiding up on the UI, do something about fiberfx renderspeed (which may be solved with the GPU rendering)
And native fluid solution that can actually render PBR volumetrics.
And more fixing of undo system

There you go..that is the required sole of the shoes..to keep on walking, now fix it and then start market it as a quite decent out of the box, state of the art, unprecendented 3D tool ;) seriously..those words may do more harm these days than good.

prometheus
04-25-2019, 02:24 PM
yeah, sorta sucks. I see Bryphi pulled all his lw videos on youtube, which were a great resource.
Louis D jumped, which is a shame as his blog was great. Now chris.
You can read them chatting about that here plus a bit more info
https://blenderartists.org/t/human-progress/1143224/11

so, if all these great artists who shared tips and tricks for lw, showing what can be done are gone, then what?
i used a lot of these for ref when needed in projects.
lwg really needs a slap across the face. wake up! you’re doing it wrong.

I bought it anyway, though I was highly unsure, not many in the market over here that has Lightwave as required skills, it needs to offer something that others don´t..and it needs to offer something that is to come rather than what already is.

erikals
04-25-2019, 02:45 PM
many artists keep moving to Blender,

but i think it would be a huge mistake to think that that goes for LightWave only.

i'm sure you'll find many from Maya/Max/Modo/C4D doing the same thing.

the future of all of these apps is to excel where Blender does not.


so, no time to sleep.

https://i.imgur.com/AquYg2g.png

hrgiger
04-25-2019, 02:57 PM
many artists keep moving to Blender,

but i think it would be a huge mistake to think that that goes for LightWave only.

i'm sure you'll find many from Maya/Max/Modo/C4D doing the same thing.

the future of all of these apps is to excel where Blender does not.


so, no time to sleep.

https://i.imgur.com/AquYg2g.png

Absolutely, a lot of people will migrate to Blender. For some it will be a replacement for other apps while other people will just add it to their toolset. I think the issue here is that the apps you listed are known for being dominant in certain things and all of them will keep focusing on those things because they know that is where their bread is buttered. Houdini for high end vfx, Maya for film/animation, Max for games/archviz, Modo for asset creation, C4D for motion graphics... which leaves LW the odd man out because its not known for being strong in a certain area other than being a lower cost alternative but then, no one beats Blender at that game. LW (in my opinion) needs to find something to excel at and focus on it. The generalized approach isn't cutting it. Back in the day, back when LW was visible it was known for having an exceptional modeling and rendering package out of the box. That just isn't the case these days, at least in terms of what else is available now.


I resisted Blender for a long time, didn't like its workflow but 2.8 is finally approaching something in the realm of sanity and I've been enjoying it these last several months, but its just another app, I don't consider it an alternative to anything, just another tool in the box.

SBowie
04-25-2019, 03:16 PM
it puzzles me, and makes me wonder if Ridlen contacted a NT employee on the lower latter. who knows.Either way, I don't think anyone here would contend that NewTek was blameless, never having dropped the ball in this (or most) LW contexts. Sadly, such is all too easy, which is not meant to make excuses but rather a candid observation.

Hail
04-25-2019, 11:03 PM
Absolutely, a lot of people will migrate to Blender. For some it will be a replacement for other apps while other people will just add it to their toolset. I think the issue here is that the apps you listed are known for being dominant in certain things and all of them will keep focusing on those things because they know that is where their bread is buttered. Houdini for high end vfx, Maya for film/animation, Max for games/archviz, Modo for asset creation, C4D for motion graphics... which leaves LW the odd man out because its not known for being strong in a certain area other than being a lower cost alternative but then, no one beats Blender at that game. LW (in my opinion) needs to find something to excel at and focus on it. The generalized approach isn't cutting it. Back in the day, back when LW was visible it was known for having an exceptional modeling and rendering package out of the box. That just isn't the case these days, at least in terms of what else is available now.


I resisted Blender for a long time, didn't like its workflow but 2.8 is finally approaching something in the realm of sanity and I've been enjoying it these last several months, but its just another app, I don't consider it an alternative to anything, just another tool in the box.

I don't think lightwave is the only odd one out here.
Modo's bread and butter is under serious assault from zbrush and other sculpting solutions.
It's only a matter of time before it is rendered redundant in asset creation if development does not pick up pace in other departments.
That said, blender seems to be gunning for everyone.
Even AD products will not be safe at some point in the future, if the current trend in the blender community continues that is.

gdkeast
04-26-2019, 01:20 AM
For me, all these programs are a means to an end, and whichever program gets you where you want to be the most efficiently and cost-effectively will have a place somewhere. My biggest issue is that I actually like LightWave a lot and I'm extremely comfortable with it, and for that reason alone, it is my tool of choice. I know Blender is all the rage, but for the type of stuff I'm doing (short little films, 3D graphics, logos, a few effects here and there), there's no reason for me to jump ship on LightWave. How I feel about LW is truly how I feel about using a trusty tool. There might be others out there that are better or flashier, but I just like LightWave. But this is coming from a person who still uses Photoshop CS6 because it still does everything I need it to.

And to be fair, despite everything, LightWave was used in Green Book, and that film did win an Academy Award for Best Picture, so, in my mind, LW is still showing itself as a capable tool no matter whatever chaos is going on.

gar26lw
04-26-2019, 02:41 AM
thing is, you are in the minority

erikals
04-26-2019, 03:47 AM
getting closer to 2020, LightWave should add >

• endomorph tweak L/M
• workplane option L/M
• true boolean operations L/M
• weightpaint L/M  (further development)
• polygon tweaking L/M
• rounding, non-destructive L/M
• lattice L/M (natively)
• lock layers L/M
• array functions (advanced) L/M
• instancing L/M
• polygon islands functions L/M
• groups L/M
• sculpting features L/M
• texture paint L/M
• real-time modeling tools L/M
• point-edge-poly selection L/M

important; L/M means that these functions should appear in both Layout & Modeler

also; the future of all modern 3D apps is to be able to tweak models in "render-view"

prometheus
04-26-2019, 03:49 AM
For me, all these programs are a means to an end, and whichever program gets you where you want to be the most efficiently and cost-effectively will have a place somewhere. My biggest issue is that I actually like LightWave a lot and I'm extremely comfortable with it, and for that reason alone, it is my tool of choice. I know Blender is all the rage, but for the type of stuff I'm doing (short little films, 3D graphics, logos, a few effects here and there), there's no reason for me to jump ship on LightWave. How I feel about LW is truly how I feel about using a trusty tool. There might be others out there that are better or flashier, but I just like LightWave. But this is coming from a person who still uses Photoshop CS6 because it still does everything I need it to.

And to be fair, despite everything, LightWave was used in Green Book, and that film did win an Academy Award for Best Picture, so, in my mind, LW is still showing itself as a capable tool no matter whatever chaos is going on.

In all honesty, and with respect to David Ridlens work...(I love the guys work and so do many others) the fact that The Green Book won the oscar for best film, may actually have little to do with the vfx work(it could have ment a lot as well),But if it had won the VFX award it would have been a completely different level of acknowledgement to Both David´s work and the tools he used.

The latest 2 years, I have been more interested in learning blender and that is probably where I will focus my 3d stuff in the near future, that said..I did buy in to the latest Lightwave since I think it does some stuff that I like to do..much better than blender, modo and in some cases even compared to Houdini, but it is also full of changes from past versions I do not like and it is still behind in many areas, I still Love the Lightwave way too much and some of the recent volumetric stuff was too interesting to pass out on.

But they really need to put more effort on fixing what was lightwave strengths that they iI think they lost, ease of use and speedy render..that means refreshing UI, don´t mess up workflow with node "Only" workflows..and getting a native GPU solution, or they face a relentless compitition against blender.

erikals
04-26-2019, 03:58 AM
still, they should've included his work somewhere.

hypersuperduper
04-26-2019, 04:21 AM
Lightwave is, despite its flaws, a capable tool, and it is getting better at a decent pace. However, Newtek should be doing a better job of showing this off, which means cultivating better relationships with prominent creators, or doing more with the relationships they have. I think the new management team has been doing great work showing off the work of prominent plugin developers, and internal tutorials and documentation, and this aspect of lw looks more vibrant than it has in a while, but there has clearly been drop-off in professional level work being shown off even though clearly professional work is still being done. Green Book is an example of that. Even if David Ridlin's poor support experience was atypical, it seems to me that Newtek should definitely be working harder on this. Clearly just having professional creators among the beta users is not enough.

Just look at the Newsletters. there hasn't been an article about a creator or artist since 2017. even though lightwave was used on the best picture winner! Without good artist outreach all these great new features that we are getting run the risk of dying on the vine.

TheLexx
04-26-2019, 04:59 AM
Lightwave users used to be spoiled for choice with printed books and dvds, and though I can't visualise any LW printed books being released again for a good while, one unfortunate mishap which was in no way NT's fault was the Kurv fiasco because that took down an entire complete LW visual learning library at a stroke. Old news yes, but they have never been comprehensively updated or replaced. The void from Splinegod, and William departing for pastures green (alright, Modo), was never properly filled again in my view.

One thing I found amusing was a contrasting ethos from some LW users. For example, I saw a Blender character modelling tutorial where he said (paraphrased) "It's about constantly practicing and growing your skills with each iteration". Compare to Larry with Lightwave, "Make just one ear, then use it for the rest of your life". Someone tell me that isn't totally hilarious. :D

lardbros
04-26-2019, 05:06 AM
David Ridlen is spot on...

Unfortunately, LW doesn't get enough decent marketing. It's not a slur on Chuck's work, or anyone else's in Newtek's marketing... but it's always been quite poor.
When other developers are pushing meetings with customers, and doing showings of their work, NewTek doesn't do this.

I do think NewTek needs a dedicated person for LW marketing, but it's always left to someone with the dedication rather than an actual role of chief marketer.
I don't know how all other app developers do it, but the ones I've seen, like Allegorithmic, have a lot of people pushing their tools. They have a lot of people working with them to make sure their tools are production ready and all that.

NewTek don't do this. Probably budgetary constraints, but they've proven this time and again that this isn't their focus, or forte at all. It's a shame as it's so easy to get it right... and Chuck has made the blog better than it would be normally. But still, it's a full-time job... and someone has to do it if LW is to attempt to regain some more traction.

Not being negative, just trying to be honest. But I've said this for decades. The only time it got better was when Rob first took over and started being an evangelist. Stuff did go wrong in the end, but he was actually good for promoting LW.

SBowie
04-26-2019, 06:21 AM
thing is, you are in the minorityIn the world, or the 3D domain, certainly. In these forums, perhaps not. Rather, my impression is that there are quite some number who find some advantages in LW that retain their interest, and a vocal handful who - having largely moved on - linger for reasons best understood by themselves. The former (larger) group tend to be less vociferous, and certainly these will be interested in - even somewhat concerned about - LW's future. (I won't say there's nothing really new there, because there are new players on the field, and no-one knows at this point whether that will change things or not.)

I think we'd hear more from the majority if they didn't feel like every time they open their mouth someone from the second group will quickly jump in to rain on their parade. (As an aside, I regularly receive requests or remarks to the effect that we should just ban the detractors ... but failing to allow criticism is not a good path, so as it is you really have to to push the limits of tolerance beyond all reason to earn a ban.)

hrgiger
04-26-2019, 07:38 AM
I don't think lightwave is the only odd one out here.
Modo's bread and butter is under serious assault from zbrush and other sculpting solutions.
It's only a matter of time before it is rendered redundant in asset creation if development does not pick up pace in other departments.
That said, blender seems to be gunning for everyone.
Even AD products will not be safe at some point in the future, if the current trend in the blender community continues that is.

Zbrush and other sculpting apps are great for what they do and I love Zbrush more than anything but they will never replace a polygonal modeling application. Some tasks are better suited to the Zbrush workflow but some things are so much simpler in polygonal modeling apps that allow for easier precision, scale and manipulation.

And Blender is great. But AD products have little to fear from it, at least any time soon.

raymondtrace
04-26-2019, 08:44 AM
...marketing...

...they've proven this time and again that this isn't their focus, or forte at all. It's a shame as it's so easy to get it right... and Chuck has made the blog better than it would be normally. But still, it's a full-time job... and someone has to do it if LW is to attempt to regain some more traction...

A skim of the glassdoor site shows some enlightening commentary from former marketing employees.

As a small glimmer of hope (also in the context of the acquisition) NT recently posted a new job opening this month, planned since January. It suggests some intended growth in marketing (or maybe it's just refilling a recently vacated position). Hopefully they can get it right.

(If a marketing employee is seeing this... why are there no Marketo munchkins in these forums? That seems like an easy win. If you need help, there are people here willing to assist, gratis [LWB-4021].)

TheLexx
04-26-2019, 10:15 AM
Zbrush and other sculpting apps are great for what they do and I love Zbrush more than anything but they will never replace a polygonal modeling application.
Agreed. Probably due to influence of ZBrush's reputation, there is a certain perception that sculpting is a first and automatically superior choice followed by the retopology, when a traditional workflow might have been much better at the outset. I am still amazed by Angela Guenette's work in Blender for the Sintel character, yet this is generally considered an outdated workflow today. Here is a short trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmotgUxILTM&lc=UgxE5-021c7wxsa2Xxt4AaABAg) - the highlighted comment by Romick is not quite how I would have put it(!) but I agree.

Same for the Warner McGee Modo character (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjhebECG7Pg#t=9s), which could easily be photoreal with the same workflow. In contrast, a character project (https://80.lv/articles/female-character-production-by-blair-armitage/) started in ZBrush by the talented Blair Armitage, but note the project time of two years (on the side).

At one time LW had similar resources, but users probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than obtaining these today. The power is defintely there but a new user wouldn't necessarily know that.

erikals
04-26-2019, 11:27 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngSBowie I regularly receive requests or remarks to the effect that we should just ban the detractors
those users should write that very same message in public / at these forums.
i get why they do it, but it is rather ridiculous imo. they should speak up, or forever hold their peace.


... but failing to allow criticism is not a good path, so as it is you really have to to push the limits of tolerance beyond all reason to earn a ban.
thanks, at a time where LightWave lacks features and feedback from NewTek,
i think the last thing one would need is a banning of users that are verbal about it.

also, the "critics" give constructive criticism less these days (including me)
hammering the same nail gets to be tiring, it just won't move.
but to think that old users abandon LightWave because of the negativity on this forum is, not very sharp.


https://i.imgur.com/XXJUejb.png

Chris S. (Fez)
04-26-2019, 11:27 AM
Some tasks are better suited to the Zbrush workflow but some things are so much simpler in polygonal modeling apps that allow for easier precision, scale and manipulation.

Yup.

erikals
04-26-2019, 11:46 AM
Some tasks are better suited to the Zbrush workflow but some things are so much simpler in polygonal modeling apps that allow for easier precision, scale and manipulation.
Yup.

SBowie
04-26-2019, 12:04 PM
those users should write that very same message in public / at these forums.Such conversations tend to become personal, which is not welcome.


hammering the same nail gets to be tiring, it just won't move.Constructive criticism is one thing, but yes, if it is endlessly repetitious it clearly benefits no-one.


but to think that old users abandon LightWave because of the negativity on this forum is, not very sharp.Oh, I think many more have abandoned the forums rather than LW for that reason. I have two very good LW'ers on my team, and neither bothers with the forums very much, and this is why.

erikals
04-26-2019, 12:51 PM
anyways, i'm sure there will be less repetitive constructive criticism in the near future.

https://i.imgur.com/whsgG7I.png

SBowie
04-26-2019, 01:16 PM
anyways, i'm sure there will be less repetitive constructive criticism in the near future.

https://i.imgur.com/whsgG7I.pngWhen it comes to LW, I'm not sure of a darn thing. Time will tell ... a the moment, it's business as usual (which is doubtless what some are afraid of). ;)

Gungho3D
04-27-2019, 02:10 AM
When it comes to LW, I'm not sure of a darn thing. Time will tell ... a the moment, it's business as usual (which is doubtless what some are afraid of). ;)
Steve

Occasionally your posts have a deep honesty embedded within …

… however, to distil an equally deep truth about many of the aggravated posts (yes I know some of them could be better expressed), the fact remains that it is literally "business as usual" by NT (and now the New-NT?) which lies at the heart and core of why many of them are posted.



I'm NOT talking about the Devs - we love the Devs, more power to them!



But communication, that still sucks, is handled piecemeal and doled out late and reactively instead of proactively, and somehow I'm made to feel that I should be grateful …
- NO, I don't mean that NT should "magic up" information they have no access to / do not have permission to post
- YES, I do mean a complete absence of timely, well placed (i.e. not buried in a product post I never look at) "heads up LWers, we're going down this path, can't say much right now but we'll get to that soon." This is a no-brainer. Instead, we finally got - got what? - we got some clarity which hitch-hiked another forum post by tacking onto the front of that. Has there been a deluge of timely, proactive user-base focused set of updates since then? … sigh no, "business as usual" reactive trickles of "all is well," all of which communicates so effectively that we as a user-base are actually an after-thought ...



I've been struggling to see how the above somehow does not equate to a passive-aggressive dynamic … and believe me, I'm definitely saying we're on the receiving end. And I actually think it does boil down to exactly that: having spent some years as a prison chaplain (yep, exactly that) in former years, I'm not ignorant of the recipe required for dysfunction … and we have had dysfunction in spades with respect to NT for some years and, guess what: the kids are voting with their feet and leaving home.

And even when someone as gifted and faithful in using LW as David Ridlen finally expresses his frustration (as he is walking out the door), the "we're sorry" response from New-NT indicates to the rest of us that, yep, it literally is "business as usual" … because we previously wore that response which (at the time) came with "but we'll do better."



------------------------------
The only thing I regret about this post is that I'm leveraging your very accurate words: "business as usual" - I'm hoping you don't get canned because of the above equally accurate, facts based take on your words because I have absolutely no gripe with you - sometimes I've actually wondered how you've managed such a level head.

To this day, LW for me remains bread and butter in a multi-billion dollar industry where renders and animations have been created in support of bids the size of which would boggle most minds - that's the size of bids, not the size of the renders :)

As a faithful 21 yr user of LW, always an advocate, always amazed at the sheer depth of skill I see in so many who post their best on this forum, I believe I have earned the right to speak as clearly as I have above and not find myself castigated by NT for saying things which are as plain as the nose on the end of my face.

SBowie
04-27-2019, 07:04 AM
The only thing I regret about this post is that I'm leveraging your very accurate words: "business as usual" - I'm hoping you don't get canned because of the above equally accurate, facts based take on your words because I have absolutely no gripe with you - sometimes I've actually wondered how you've managed such a level head. Nah, no worries. Your reply is exactly what I meant when I wrote "which is doubtless what some are afraid of".

Speaking broadly, humility is always a good thing, not a weakness - especially when onlookers can easily point to legitimate shortcomings. So is honesty. This doesn't mean one must always tell all he knows, but I promise you that you will never find me deliberately misleading you, stating something I know to be wrong. It works the other way, too. For example, when I say "Don't expect LW news immediately, because at the moment no-one really knows what (if anything) the change in ownership will mean", I do not do so without good reason. I'm not going to provide details, which wouldn't be particularly helpful anyway - but I never make affirmative statements without a basis for doing so.

To this particular point, it would be ridiculous to pompously pretend we were perfect. I've simply pointed out occasionally that there are still many who enjoy working with LW, but every time one of these people has the temerity to pop up, a vocal handful jump all over him. Perhaps these ones would say that the same thing happens to them when they offer a critique. Perhaps both types should be a little more considerate of one another. OK, so we're not one big happy family; but we are a family.


I have absolutely no gripe with you - sometimes I've actually wondered how you've managed such a level head.Please don't imagine I always personally disagree with or fail to value criticism. But no-one benefits from snarky and endless nagging. This said, I will add that there are a few here who have mastered the ability to offer a well thought out and temperate comment that variously reveals both good and bad aspects of matters without either harping or invective. And overall, I think the tone of the forum in 2019 has shown a marked increase in civility and mutual respect.

As to level-headedness, my wife would probably question your assessment, but anyway I think a little modesty, a little empathy, and a good sense of humor go a long way. ;)

gar26lw
04-27-2019, 08:51 AM
the ying and the yang; both are needed to remain healthy.

i would prefer it if fanboi’s and trolls returned to the forum but that ship might have sailed.

respect.

SBowie
04-27-2019, 10:31 AM
i would prefer it if fanboi’s and trolls returned to the forum but that ship might have sailed.Whereas I like to think that it was lost at sea with all hands. ;)

Provocation, whatever the angle it comes from, is generally just someone's way of saying "Look at me!". Most of us outgrew that around age 6.

erikals
04-27-2019, 11:45 AM
have the fanbois and the trolls agreed to who is who ?

[runs away]

Gregg "T.Rex"
04-27-2019, 08:26 PM
Hi guys... :)
Just popped in to say "hello" to old friends, that's all..... :)

Cheers everyone.... ;)

erikals
04-27-2019, 10:44 PM
Welcome Back!  https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png

gdkeast
04-28-2019, 12:14 AM
One thing I found amusing was a contrasting ethos from some LW users. For example, I saw a Blender character modelling tutorial where he said (paraphrased) "It's about constantly practicing and growing your skills with each iteration". Compare to Larry with Lightwave, "Make just one ear, then use it for the rest of your life". Someone tell me that isn't totally hilarious. :D


LOL. I'm definitely a make-one-ear-for-life guy.

pinkmouse
04-28-2019, 01:03 AM
...Provocation, whatever the angle it comes from, is generally just someone's way of saying "Look at me!"...

Indeed, but why do they feel the need for attention? Is it that LW3DG don't actually listen, respond or communicate to its user base? I've seen this many times on other user forums, for S/W, H/W, games and Kickstarters. The fora that feel productive, friendly and positive are the ones where users feel involved and the host company responds, gives help and is open with where they are going and problems they're having. The companies that don't, well, here we are.

Steve, you call these people trolls, (admittedly usually with a smiley). And, being a mod on another forum much bigger than this, I feel your pain. But they're not. They are/were loyal paying customers who'd invested a lot of time, money, and even "love" in LW, and I suspect that if they could they would still be buying and using LW. These are your best customers, they know the work flows/arounds, they can get things done and help others.

But no. Label them troublemakers and trolls, refuse to communicate, don't bother addressing the many issues they've brought up, and just hope they'll go away. That's a six year old's behaviour.

erikals
04-28-2019, 01:24 AM
LOL. I'm definitely a make-one-ear-for-life guy.

me too,.... latenight/earlymorning

https://i.imgur.com/ApK2F4l.png

:sleeping:

pinkmouse
04-28-2019, 01:37 AM
So, looking at that hair style, you made that, what, 1983? :D

Marander
04-28-2019, 02:32 AM
Steve, you call these people trolls, (admittedly usually with a smiley). And, being a mod on another forum much bigger than this, I feel your pain. But they're not. They are/were loyal paying customers who'd invested a lot of time, money, and even "love" in LW, and I suspect that if they could they would still be buying and using LW. These are your best customers, they know the work flows/arounds, they can get things done and help others.

But no. Label them troublemakers and trolls, refuse to communicate, don't bother addressing the many issues they've brought up, and just hope they'll go away. That's a six year old's behaviour.

Fully agree.

I've not noticed real trolling or provocation in this forum. Yes, some negativity, honest feedback and comments, product comparison and frustration but also constructive criticism and credit where credit is due from ex or current LW users (guilty of those myself). There are issues in LW that were brought up countless times that could be fixed with minimal development effort (in my opinion and experience as developer, "low hanging fruits"), but they are ignored for years. Some of us have provided extensive lists of missing, buggy or incomplete features for future improvements. These so called "trolls" are customers, have helped other LW users, provided tutorials and submitted bugs in the past and present but are using other applications as well and want LW to improve.

What I notice are a very few die hard fanboys that seem to be blind to everything happening around them and defend LW when any criticism comes up and get offensive which in some cases result in personal attacks. Developers and product management that don't seem to listen but instead ignore the forum all together and stick their heads in the sand. Total silence for months. No roadmap or tech previews that would raise the interest for future releases but misleading information about the current version (Hydra implementation / geometry engine performance, point/poly/edge awareness in Layout, Metamorphic optimizations). Forum moderation with too many subjective and personal remarks without providing any expertise. Chuck's involvement in the forum is very positive and a step forward though in my opinion.

erikals
04-28-2019, 05:07 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngpinkmouse So, looking at that hair style, you made that, what, 1983? :D
close enough  https://i.imgur.com/JsBiFVj.gif

https://i.imgur.com/mVj5BCL.png

SBowie
04-28-2019, 06:08 AM
you call these people trolls, (admittedly usually with a smiley).Actually, I virtually never use epithets - with or without a smiley ... though some others here do. Forced to define a "troll", I'd say it was someone who is a sniper, with no real interest here other than popping up occasionally to post provocative, very often abusive and personal remarks (frequently to or about other forum members. In some cases, it has appeared to me that the true problem is revealed when anyone at all fails to sufficiently worship at their altar). And - for the record - I don't consider anyone currently here to be in that group.


Edit: I suppose there is at least one sub-species, comprised of those who have long since turned to other solutions yet who pop up in here from time to time to try to wedge a promo for their current tool into some discussion or other. These, I would say, are a more benign form, and do not have the same ego/abuse issues, and thus - while unwelcome - are less objectionable.


When they do appear, I will sometimes engage them - initially to encourage them to use more moderate ways to express their views; less often, to take issue with any actual point they might be seeming to make (I really don't have any issue with honest criticism, but will sometimes correct something I know with certainty to be a factual error or misrepresentation). I'd much prefer that they self-moderate, as any adult should be capable of doing. A person really has to go out of their way to get the old heave-ho.

(I can't resist pointing out that it always entertains me when these individuals, whose posts are typically laced with vitriol, turn into little girls whose tender feelings have been hurt whenever they are reigned in with the least bit of firmness. It would be fair to say that I have no sympathy for those who dish it out by the truckload but can't handle the slightest push-back.)


Is it that LW3DG don't actually listen, respond or communicate to its user base? I've seen this many times on other user forums, for S/W, H/W, games and Kickstarters. The fora that feel productive, friendly and positive are the ones where users feel involved and the host company responds, gives help and is open with where they are going and problems they're having. The companies that don't, well, here we are.I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.

prometheus
04-28-2019, 07:22 AM
)

I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.


Great..more time to develop things like modeling tools in Layout faster since they do not spend time in here :)
But occasionally..they should have someone monitoring the discussion with a special user filter, meaning listening to the technical issues and disregard the parts about marketing or the future of lightwave etc.
Listening to marketing suggestions is something for the other staff members I reckon.

Gungho3D
04-28-2019, 07:26 AM
Nah, no worries. Your reply is exactly what I meant when I wrote "which is doubtless what some are afraid of".
Thanks Steve


This doesn't mean one must always tell all he knows, ... when I say "Don't expect LW news immediately, because at the moment no-one really knows what (if anything) the change in ownership will mean", I do not do so without good reason. I'm not going to provide details, which wouldn't be particularly helpful anyway - but I never make affirmative statements without a basis for doing so.
Fully understood - like I said, I have no expectation for anyone at New-NT to magic up details which are as-yet-unknown out of thin air, nor, for that matter, to prematurely divulge anything still under wraps. That's the part which is normal.

The part which continues to cause angst is … well, 'nuf said specific to that already.

gar26lw
04-28-2019, 08:12 AM
what pinkmouse said

hypersuperduper
04-28-2019, 10:19 AM
I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.

The issue is that Newtek needs people OTHER than the devs doing outreach and getting involved in the forums. I know enough programmers to know that this sort of thing is not typically a forte. Let them solve the technical problems. It is great that chuck appears reasonably often to provide official statements, but what is missing is a liason between the users and the devs. We can either shout at each other on the forum or file feature requests, but we don’t ultimately know who we are talking to or who is listening. There needs to be someone who knows what the roadmap looks like and but also has the time and temperament, and understanding of how people actually use the tools to engage with a bunch of cantankerous customers and get the good ideas to the right devs.

hrgiger
04-28-2019, 10:35 AM
In all my criticism of NT, especially in the last few years, it never really had much to do with developers. Personally I believe the developers of LW, past and present are a talented group of people who seem to feel passion about the work they do. So much to your point about your defense of the developers Steve, I don't think its needed. Any missteps which may have happened in LW development I think are largely at the feet of NT's support of LW, or lack there of and failing to provide a strong direction/roadmap of just what was trying to be accomplished with LW.

And yes, I may be one of the ones who have moved on as I haven't been interested in the last few versions of LW, but I am genuinely curious about any development news as I had been so invested in LW for years.

SBowie
04-28-2019, 12:55 PM
Personally I believe the developers of LW, past and present are a talented group of people who seem to feel passion about the work they do. So much to your point about your defense of the developers Steve, I don't think its needed.And yet it does seem necessary, in view of the quote below ... which is why I made that particular point.


Developers and product management that don't seem to listen but instead ignore the forum all together and stick their heads in the sand.

gar26lw
04-28-2019, 03:46 PM
The issue is that Newtek needs people OTHER than the devs doing outreach and getting involved in the forums. I know enough programmers to know that this sort of thing is not typically a forte. Let them solve the technical problems. It is great that chuck appears reasonably often to provide official statements, but what is missing is a liason between the users and the devs. We can either shout at each other on the forum or file feature requests, but we don’t ultimately know who we are talking to or who is listening. There needs to be someone who knows what the roadmap looks like and but also has the time and temperament, and understanding of how people actually use the tools to engage with a bunch of cantankerous customers and get the good ideas to the right devs.

“always get a roadmap” ;)

jwiede
04-28-2019, 04:24 PM
And yet it does seem necessary, in view of the quote below ... which is why I made that particular point.

In the absence of explicit accountable people/positions and responsive communication channels, though, it really isn't surprising at all. If Newtek wants to fix the problem, the most efficient way to do so is simply to provide clear indication of who they _should_ be faulting, and who they should escalate to when "blind communications" with CS aren't working. In the absence of that, of COURSE customers are going to fault the wrong people.

Another point to note is that complaining about customers faulting the wrong people, without actually giving them the proper people to fault or hold accountable, is akin to telling customers to "just be quiet". Similarly, saying stuff like "upper mgmt is responsible for everything" is little different from the customer viewpoint, because it's been shown quite clear historically that there will not be any sort of reliable, responsive, ongoing communications channel between customers and Newtek upper mgmt.

Put more bluntly, don't expect customers to "get it right" w.r.t. who's accountable for what, when there's never been any explicit provision of a better or more appropriate option given.

SBowie
04-28-2019, 05:43 PM
In the absence of explicit accountable people/positions and responsive communication channels, though, it really isn't surprising at all. If Newtek wants to fix the problem, the most efficient way to do so is simply to provide clear indication of who they _should_ be faulting, and who they should escalate to when "blind communications" with CS aren't working.Let's allow, for obvious reasons, that communication could be improved, and that at times this has been even more true. And one might wonder whether it will improve now, or ever.

To your point, though - it can be argued that everything and anything untoward that befalls any project, product or company is a management problem. Insufficient resources? Poor planning? Product not explained or positioned well? Too many meetings, hurricanes, deaths, divorce, departures, dog ate my homework? All management failures.

Any company needs to look closely at such things internally, along with countless other business factors. But on this planet at least, the 'inside' details and participants are made public vanishingly seldom - and often for good reasons. So I doubt you can hope for the publishing of a 'table of blame' with contact information.

Yes, absent such information, speculation arises. In my experience this is a) virtually unavoidable, and b) often spectacularly wrong. Nevertheless, for the reason given above (among others) you will not usually find me gainsaying or deflecting critical comments directed toward NewTek or LW3DG policy or direction - with rare exceptions where I know some w.a.g. to be hopelessly mistaken and it seems a kindness to put it out of its misery; or where civility and/or professionalism has been totally thrown out the window; or the conversation has devolved to endless circular harping to no practical purpose; or, thankfully still less commonly, it becomes clear that the motivation for the criticism is other than an attempt to improve matters. The continued existence of this thread and others of a similar nature historically should give ample testimony to that fact.

This leaves open the question 'Who exactly can we blame then, if we are unhappy?' You can agree or disagree with the premise of ultimate management responsibility above. I'm not entirely certain that public flogging is really much of a solution for anything, but some seem to enjoy it. Some might argue it's counterproductive, and at some point I suppose we run up against the fact that this is not what the forums are for (their stated purpose being "to facilitate professional and civil discourse regarding the use of NewTek products by those who own them". Even so, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to take substantial issue with the basic premise of this thread.

So, all I said is basically 'Let's not fault the devs'. Some might wish to use that as a springboard, but I don't think many here actually disagree with my point.

PetGerbil
04-28-2019, 05:50 PM
I find it impossible to put into words how very tedious i find this. But, suffice to say. very tedious...

It's sort of boring,monotonous,dull,uninteresting,unexciting,un varied,soul-destroying,humdrum,mundane,wearisome,tiresome,life less,colourless,uninspired,flat,plodding,banal,vap id,insipid,bland,lacklustre,laborious,samey and seemingly endless...

SBowie
04-28-2019, 05:52 PM
I find it impossible to put into words how very tedious i find this.Top marks for your attempt, nonetheless!

PetGerbil
04-28-2019, 05:54 PM
Luckily dictionary dot com had a few suggestions. :D

jwiede
04-28-2019, 06:21 PM
So, all I said is basically 'Let's not fault the devs'. Some might wish to use that as a springboard, but I don't think many here actually disagree with my point.

And I agree with that 100%, if that wasn't clear. However, I also definitely believe Newtek could do much better at providing escalation paths for customer issues.

Sure, upper mgmt is ultimately responsible, no question. That's not really a useful solution for customers who are having problems being heard, though. Most other companies at least provide explicit "Director/Head of Customer Support" position to contact, etc. for escalation, as someone who's job it is to definitely respond and interact with customers who feel their CS interactions weren't adequate (or in cases where blind CS sendings aren't appropriate). I think that'd probably represent a good starting point for Newtek too (w.r.t. Lightwave). Obviously, that person needs to be able to speak authoritatively regarding Lightwave, as well.

As it stands, the problem is that there's just isn't anyone (beyond a blind CS mailbox) customers can rely on to interact with them when they feel their issues aren't being heard, and it shouldn't be the least bit surprising in such a situation that frustration eventually takes over for many.

gar26lw
04-28-2019, 06:36 PM
Luckily dictionary dot com had a few suggestions. :D

and I thought you were channeling George Carlin :)

SBowie
04-28-2019, 07:06 PM
Most other companies at least provide explicit "Director/Head of Customer Support" position to contact, etc. for escalation, as someone who's job it is to definitely respond and interact with customers who feel their CS interactions weren't adequate (or in cases where blind CS sendings aren't appropriate).Well, I'll view this as a practical suggestion, and just mention that it's been my impression that Deuce's efforts at lending a personal touch to support inquiries has been pretty well received. Beyond that, I'm sure Chuck is willing to lend an ear when that seems to fall short for whatever reason. Worth remembering, I think, though, that for the present at least you're dealing with a smallish LW staff.

gar26lw
04-28-2019, 09:03 PM
yeah, Deuce does a great job

lardbros
04-29-2019, 06:45 AM
I think what NewTek did last year, with a survey asking about the features that users wanted, was a GREAT move.

It gave us a way to direct LW's future, and in every way it made LightWave 2019 a great release.
Smoothing Groups is a brilliant addition (yes, I know there are arguments against this as it took so long to get... but we have it now, and it's very useful.)

My point being, that the survey really gave users a kind of ownership and would be nice to get them more frequently, if that's possible?

For instance, how about a survey for "Annoying little things" type problems? The death of a thousand cuts type bugs.
Autodesk has a specific bug report for "annoying little things" they fix many of them for the next release.

If these could be compiled, and then the most annoying ones voted for to fix first, it would be a nice way to involve the community and for us users to get more ownership in the process. (Yes, we don't own them... but it's nice to get customers feeling like they're guiding the development).
More and more developers are really utilising their communities to drive development. Allegorithmic and UE4 are great examples... they really listen. It can feel a bit strange that LW doesn't so much.

gar26lw
04-29-2019, 09:47 AM
it would be nice to see all bugs too, to avoid duplicates and upvote a bug instead

erikals
04-29-2019, 10:16 AM
Autodesk has a specific bug report for "annoying little things"

a start >
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-139159
though doesn't include Layout "gotchas"

raymondtrace
04-29-2019, 10:53 AM
...If these could be compiled, and then the most annoying ones voted for to fix first, it would be a nice way to involve the community...

A company would fear that this is a good way to advertise the faults of a product (of course, fears != reality). However, even if NT does not want to have an open reporting system, they can look at their competitors that do, and get a better understanding of development priorities. The market is not really that much of a mystery.

This kind of product really needs engineered development for the community. There's an excellent example as a "cloud" for an unmentionable 3D app.

vncnt
04-29-2019, 12:41 PM
... , but what is missing is a liason between the users and the devs. ...
Blender is tested and refined during in-house productions.
I think this method is very effective to streamline a product as fast as possible.

robertoortiz
04-29-2019, 02:43 PM
Blender is tested and refined during in-house productions.
I think this method is very effective to streamline a product as fast as possible.
I have been advocating for this for years.
I would suggest for NT should welcome outside talent to develop mini less than a minute shorts to eat out new features and see gaps.
Hell even try some outside the box thinking.
Get a pro cinematographer to test out"virtual camera rigs" that behave like cameras. And test it with a 1 minute short "Photo safari"

Get a pro animator to try out new timeline tools...try doing a 1 minute short... etc etc


It can be done.

tburbage
04-29-2019, 08:10 PM
I think what NewTek did last year, with a survey asking about the features that users wanted, was a GREAT move.

It gave us a way to direct LW's future, and in every way it made LightWave 2019 a great release.
Smoothing Groups is a brilliant addition (yes, I know there are arguments against this as it took so long to get... but we have it now, and it's very useful.)

My point being, that the survey really gave users a kind of ownership and would be nice to get them more frequently, if that's possible?

For instance, how about a survey for "Annoying little things" type problems? The death of a thousand cuts type bugs.
Autodesk has a specific bug report for "annoying little things" they fix many of them for the next release.

If these could be compiled, and then the most annoying ones voted for to fix first, it would be a nice way to involve the community and for us users to get more ownership in the process. (Yes, we don't own them... but it's nice to get customers feeling like they're guiding the development).
More and more developers are really utilising their communities to drive development. Allegorithmic and UE4 are great examples... they really listen. It can feel a bit strange that LW doesn't so much.

I've made the suggestion before on these forums about using those "Small annoying things" and "Feature Requests" scale things just as the Maya team did and which I think worked so successfully for them. The key attributes of those things were:

1 - You had total visibility into what other people were suggesting, and could place your own suggestions
2 - You got to vote on these, but only had a limited number of votes to place. Thus forcing the user to self-prioritize which things matter to them the most. You could place multiple votes on a single item, even all of your votes, if it was that important to you.
3 - You could see the rankings of the items, to understand what was getting traction and what wasn't
4 - There was a formal process where a representative of the dev team would review each item, and would ask for clarification if the intend wasn't clear. That communication was right there in public view.
5 - When the dev team decided to formally discuss an item, they would mark it "Under review".
6 - If the item actually made it onto the real play list, it would be marked as such as well. TBA for sure, but you at least knew *something* was happening.

If an item you voted on was "resolved" (rejected or finished) you would get your votes back.

When we send in a bug report that turns out to be more of a feature request, or a full blown feature request to LW, that's pretty much the end of that story until/unless something resembling that request appears in a future release.
That Maya team approach just seems so much more engaging, visible, and collaborative.

robertoortiz
04-30-2019, 06:32 AM
I've made the suggestion before on these forums about using those "Small annoying things" and "Feature Requests" scale things just as the Maya team did and which I think worked so successfully for them. The key attributes of those things were:

1 - You had total visibility into what other people were suggesting, and could place your own suggestions
2 - You got to vote on these, but only had a limited number of votes to place. Thus forcing the user to self-prioritize which things matter to them the most. You could place multiple votes on a single item, even all of your votes, if it was that important to you.
3 - You could see the rankings of the items, to understand what was getting traction and what wasn't
4 - There was a formal process where a representative of the dev team would review each item, and would ask for clarification if the intend wasn't clear. That communication was right there in public view.
5 - When the dev team decided to formally discuss an item, they would mark it "Under review".
6 - If the item actually made it onto the real play list, it would be marked as such as well. TBA for sure, but you at least knew *something* was happening.

If an item you voted on was "resolved" (rejected or finished) you would get your votes back.

When we send in a bug report that turns out to be more of a feature request, or a full blown feature request to LW, that's pretty much the end of that story until/unless something resembling that request appears in a future release.
That Maya team approach just seems so much more engaging, visible, and collaborative.
This is a great idea.

But it would need coordination between the forum team and a designated spokesman from the dev staff.

ianr
04-30-2019, 09:08 AM
This is a great idea.

But it would need coordination between the forum team and a designated spokesman from the dev staff.


Bump +1,000% indeed!

robertoortiz
04-30-2019, 12:05 PM
This is a great idea.

But it would need coordination between the forum team and a designated spokesman from the dev staff.

And just add some legalese that the dev team is in NO OBLIGATION to implement the requested features. NT trust me this is a win win.

pinkmouse
04-30-2019, 12:58 PM
And will they pay any more attention to this than they have previously? I'm not holding my breath...

Imageshoppe
04-30-2019, 02:49 PM
Unfortunately, LW doesn't get enough decent marketing. <snip> The only time it got better was when Rob first took over and started being an evangelist.

Just exactly WHO is the current "face" of LW?

I really miss having someone who is enthusiastic about the product, and can personally use the product... either as a free-lancer or core Newtek employee, someone that you can sense the passion and who genuinely seems to care about the future and provides a public face in terms of trade shows, events and tutorials.

Brad provided that function of course, Rob, Lee, William, Gino, many others over the decades... who is left?

TheLexx
04-30-2019, 03:06 PM
Just exactly WHO is the current "face" of LW?
Steve. :D

erikals
04-30-2019, 03:37 PM
i'll volontaire.

but first, free beers for everyone!

https://i.imgur.com/Jdurzbm.png

vncnt
05-01-2019, 02:31 AM
This is a great idea.

But it would need coordination between the forum team and a designated spokesman from the dev staff.
I'm not convinced that this is the best approach for Lightwave.

I think designing a global concept and working out the most important details should be executed with limited resources, not with 1000 experts. The result will be much stronger, and less resources are wasted.

Overloading a small design team with lot's of small details and solutions is not always productive.
If you want to assist the design team, instead of telling them how to do their job, it's better to give them general goals like: "improve the workflow for X", "improve compatibility with Y", "find a new solution for Z".

X could be "acting with a 3D character" or "director driven performances", etc.
Y could be any other pipeline. Film, TV, online, real-time, simulation, etc.
Z could be "pose archive" or "gas simulation" or "faster rendering" etc.

Solutions that can be universally applied or are used by more customers are preferred.

Otterman
05-01-2019, 03:05 AM
I'm not convinced that this is the best approach for Lightwave.

I think designing a global concept and working out the most important details should be executed with limited resources, not with 1000 experts. The result will be much stronger, and less resources are wasted.

Overloading a small design team with lot's of small details and solutions is not always productive.
If you want to assist the design team, instead of telling them how to do their job, it's better to give them general goals like: "improve the workflow for X", "improve compatibility with Y", "find a new solution for Z".

X could be "acting with a 3D character" or "director driven performances", etc.
Y could be any other pipeline. Film, TV, online, real-time, simulation, etc.
Z could be "pose archive" or "gas simulation" or "faster rendering" etc.

Solutions that can be universally applied or are used by more customers are preferred.

Agreed totally. This forum is its own worst enemy. It'll be like the tail wagging the dog. Needs a select few of beta testers in the industry not a forum of squabbling hobbyists if its to get Lightwave back on track.

gar26lw
05-01-2019, 03:14 AM
Agreed totally. This forum is its own worst enemy. It'll be like the tail wagging the dog. Needs a select few of beta testers in the industry not a forum of squabbling hobbyists if its to get Lightwave back on track.

excellent

Tobian
05-01-2019, 03:58 AM
Ahh I miss Gino :D

Beta testing is mostly industry people, that's kind of the point, the problem is they have *VERY* different priorities than 'squabbling hobbyists' and of course, plenty of cash to buy tools that others can't for the missing bits they've been pushing the team away from. Just because someone is an 'industry professional' doesn't mean they care about your issues.

I do think we could use another evangelist, but I have no idea who it could be. There's very few people with a good all round grasp of LW, and *ALSO* good at doing talking in public and *ALSO* has the time to commit...

vncnt
05-01-2019, 07:52 AM
Agreed totally. This forum is its own worst enemy. It'll be like the tail wagging the dog. Needs a select few of beta testers in the industry not a forum of squabbling hobbyists if its to get Lightwave back on track.
The influence of moneymakers is a logical one but carries the risk of polishing old tricks and cling to old habits.
Also, the industry is never going to ask for solutions that they've already found in other expensive software, supported by their expensive custom scripts.

With this starting point, Lightwave design goals for the current industry are more focused on compatibility and the renderer. And that is exactly what we see in 2019.x.
I fear this strategy is a spiral to the bottom in the long run because large companies will gradually take over this function of Lightwave.

Lightwave needs healthy long-term design goals to generate more interest, and more profit.
A long-term design goal for Lightwave should initially be interesting for small businesses with big ambitions. Businesses with a limited number of employees, working together on the same project.
A well-tested concept can then safely be implemented in larger businesses and/or grow into something bigger.

If we want to help determine the right course for Lightwave, we (small businesses, soloists, and hobbyists) must give Newtek a reason to follow us in our direction.
Preferably a reason that has the potential to earn money.

How?
Show everyone what you are trying to do, how you do it, what could be improved or added, show the final results on your homepage/Vimeo/YouTube, and tell us what it has brought to business.
Don't forget to mention you have used Lightwave.

Igu4n4
05-01-2019, 09:21 AM
The problem I find with the forums here, is it's a constant rehash of what should be. And that is completely valid, but it dominates these forums. It didn't used to. There is discussion about some techniques, and some work arounds, but a good chunk of the bandwidth is rehashing the same things, mostly being that Lightwave is not in the position it once was, who's fault that is, why can't you be more like so and so, and a contingent of Lightwave is dead throwing bombs, and another contingent of Lightwave is still a great vibrant tool with less and less examples of howso.

There are obviously a lot of people still using the software (a lot being relative I suppose to the niche), but the environment in the forums has always been considered relatively toxic. It has had a reputation for that for years, and I know there a lot of us who do still use it professionally, daily, barely come here anymore because honestly it's depressing. It's a constant gripe fest, and that's not saying it's not fair in a lot of ways (As LW/Newtek have not helped the situaion on lots of fronts), but you can only hear people saying how crappy the software you are using is before you just don't feel good about yourself or the community anymore, even if that software is still providing fruit for you.

Most in the communities I know, are multi-software users. They have a base, and then branch out from there. If a tool doesn't meet their needs anymore, they move to another, have some fondness for what they are leaving, and then re-engage it if it turns out later to have qualities they need in their workflow. It's not personal, and you have to evaluate your income to spend ratios constantly to utilize different tools, but that's the nature of the beast.

Here it always gets so personal and eventually negative, and I'll bet that most people who are using Lightwave and trying to get on with their work, just aren't interested in the constant doom and gloom, so don't participate. If in fact you go through the Facebook forums about lightwave you will see some pretty fantastic work being posted daily, from different disciplines and industries.

Maybe it's the passion that causes this on both sides of the coin.. I'm not sure, but theres some very talented people out there using Lightwave who wouldn't think to post here anymore because of the constant negativity... life's too short.

How that came to be is up for debate...


My 2 cents.

st3.

SBowie
05-01-2019, 09:29 AM
Steve. :DWhat did I ever do to you? ;)

I just pop in now and again because a) I am a longstanding LW customer and all too occasional user and I like to listen, and b) to keep the discussion reasonably (if imperfectly) civil. I think Chuck, whose return to LW duties after years primarily elsewhere is very welcome, does a pretty nice job as an 'elder-statesman/ombudsman', but it's true there's no-one filling the 'evangelist' shoes at the moment.


Agreed totally. This forum is its own worst enemy. It'll be like the tail wagging the dog. Needs a select few of beta testers in the industry not a forum of squabbling hobbyists if its to get Lightwave back on track.I pretty much agree with the premise that a small circle of key influencers is better than a diverse gaggle, but I would not denigrate hobbyists, not because that's what I am (and a poor one at that) but because they are a large market, and perhaps form the bedrock of longtime LW customers. So, yes it would be a mistake to allow planning to drown in the clash of many voices, but you can also go very wrong listening to just a few professionals - who often have very precise and narrow requirements, even ones that are peculiarly their own.

SBowie
05-01-2019, 09:46 AM
Maybe it's the passion that causes this on both sides of the coin.. I'm not sure, but theres some very talented people out there using Lightwave who wouldn't think to post here anymore because of the constant negativity... life's too short.I agree heartily with your entire post, having written much the same thing recently ... though I actually do think the civility has improved very noticeably in the past six months or so, thanks to a certain amount of restraint from both camps. I really don't see any value in beating the same old negative drum anyway, but very much like to see people's work (and Facebook and I have an agreement; I don't use it, and they don't care, so 'it's all good').

OnlineRender
05-01-2019, 11:07 AM
I agree heartily with your entire post, having written much the same thing recently ...

2 Fixes

remove the LW Community forum *altogether* --- will dramatically reduce random posts and irrelevant chatter
bring back thumbnails and artwork

raymondtrace
05-01-2019, 03:33 PM
...remove the LW Community forum *altogether* --- will dramatically reduce random posts and irrelevant chatter...

There is definitely something wrong with the disorder of forum discussion. There's not any way for a forum community to rate its own content (liking/upvoting/sharing/etc) so we just have this cluttered pile of discussion with futile attempts at organization. How many dozens of forum categories do we really need?

I'm here to improve skills. I suspect this is true for others. How does one discern a high value post like this one ( https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?159845-Glowing-Vertex-or-Hologram-look&p=1570511#post1570511 ) from an endlessly pointless time-sucking thread like this one ( https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?159624-Vizrt-acquires-NewTek )?

Some other sites offer the ability for users to rank the value of responses:
https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/4172/how-do-game-designers-create-graphics-for-their-games/4202#4202

gdkeast
05-01-2019, 05:23 PM
I've always considered the Internet like the Wild West and so for me, I don't find this forum that toxic. Not any more toxic than reading You Tube commentary or even Reddit or anything else. Personally, I've learned some valuable things on here and it has saved me time in frustration. I didn't post here for the longest time, mostly because I didn't want to lazily ask a question instead of trying to figure it out as is expected in programming. I'd like to think that most people here are here because they like LW, want to know what the latest news is, and want to learn more. And I think that's pretty much what happens except for an occasional blow-out here and there. But to me, that's just the way it goes.

erikals
05-01-2019, 06:02 PM
agree, i've read just as "harsh" stuff at the Facebook LightWiki forum. though more calm now.

if this is "bad", then i don't think people know what "bad" is.

can things be improved? sure.

https://i.imgur.com/xGBw1E2.png

Otterman
05-02-2019, 04:23 AM
Luckily when I was first cutting my teeth on Lightwave the community had a reputation for being really helpful and welcoming. The likes of Spline God (RIP) really made this forum a healthy and happy place. You obviously had one or two weirdos....What was the name of that guy who criticised anyone and everyone but had a cracking eye for anatomy...(user name removed by moderator for reasons that probably require no explanation) Ha we all know what happened to him.

Anyhow, I fear any new comers are probably overwhelmed by the turmoil that the LW community finds itself. We need stability and to inspire and be inspired.

Tobian
05-02-2019, 04:44 AM
The lwiki Facebook group has had its drama moments, but when things get out of hand, we do cull posts. The usual crybullies whine about free speech, but a curated forum just makes for a much better positive experience where theres just help, support, fun banter and a friendly atmosphere. I'm just tired and drained by all the bitter old vultures that circle round, pour criticism on any positive news, sour everything and have to be batted away.

prometheus
05-02-2019, 11:03 AM
Luckily when I was first cutting my teeth on Lightwave the community had a reputation for being really helpful and welcoming. The likes of Spline God (RIP) really made this forum a healthy and happy place. You obviously had one or two weirdos....What was the name of that guy who criticised anyone and everyone but had a cracking eye for anatomy...(user name removed by moderator for reasons that probably require no explanation) Ha we all know what happened to him.

Anyhow, I fear any new comers are probably overwhelmed by the turmoil that the LW community finds itself. We need stability and to inspire and be inspired.

I could fit the bill of the second weirdo, but generally I am a nice weirdo.... I think.:D
Ericals is a third one..in a good way of course:) ...just imagine how much he covers with youtube vids on plugins and small workaround tricks.

erikals
05-02-2019, 08:22 PM
hey Thanks! https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png

and not to forget...

+ Craig, Wolf, Cageman, Larry, Mike, ADK, Bryphi, Carm, DPont, Gerardo, Greenlaw, James Busby, "Kat, Lee Perry, ChrisJ, Jarrod, Jason, Jennifer, Kurt, Lewis, Lino, Powers, Matt, "MIS, ReneFalk, "Mr Rid, Ryan, MarkW, Tobian, William, Thornton, "Prometheus, "xswampyx, DW-Burman, "Pooby,
(people at Lightwiki, Dave school, LA-LW usergroup, LWpluginDB)

and many-many more, i could go on and on... :king:

gar26lw
05-10-2019, 07:34 PM
markw about to join bryphi, chris jones, louis du mont. lwg, *** in gear yet? :(

“This should have been enjoyable (bits of it were) but turned into a frustrating exercise in bug workarounds. Whoever is managing the QC people of the Mac builds (assuming there is a Mac QC department) needs to put a rock up their asses! It’s a mess and just pushing me elsewhere. Really annoyed (going for a lie down)....”

https://m.facebook.com/groups/147771435328864?view=permalink&id=1886393804799943&anchor_composer=false

i am of the opinion that if lwg don’t start taking things very seriously and engaging with those that have left plus others that “moan”, addressing the issues presented then it’s time to start thinking about new employment, cos i don’t see how lw is going to survive with the attrition rate.
apologies for the negativity but you gotta be cruel to be kind sometimes and i would like lw to continue to be around and use it.

erikals
05-10-2019, 10:17 PM
as for Mac QC, can't comment

but making LightWave catch up will take time.

it is best to try other apps too, see if they can be of use here and there. (i do, and they are of use, just like LW)

is the wait worth it? who knows, so do what i do... app1/app2


https://i.imgur.com/ampRTnO.jpg

Iaian7
05-11-2019, 01:23 PM
as for Mac QC, can't comment

I can, in a way; until LW 2018 the only version of Lightwave available was LW 2015. I used it on every 3D production for years, including AR/MR/VR experiences and heavily customised rendering setups (a few of which I've shared in the past!). In 2018 a MacOS update broke the LW interface (all LW versions). What did NewTek do? They didn't even address it until users complained...months after developers were given access to the MacOS builds, which NewTek had apparently been ignoring.

Of course, I can't comment on LW 2018 or LW 2019 QC because I haven't upgraded. How could I? Up until 2018, every production was built using the old render engine. And in less than 12 months NewTek went from selling LW 2015 to removing rendering support for all LW 2015 projects and deciding not to release a patch for LW 2015 to work in the current OS. Unless you keep an old Mac and prevent any system updates...you're out of luck when it comes to continuing/revisiting projects started before LW 2018.

Eventually support for old versions has to cease. Naturally! Adobe doesn't add 2019 camera models to Photoshop CS6, which is quite a few years older. Of course you can still work with CS6 projects in CC2019, so it doesn't matter in the same way.

In the case of NewTek, in less than a year they ended support for Mac users who had been using the software on productions for the past 10 years. That's untenable behaviour in a professional setting, and we've had to move to other platforms. NewTek has shown a certain amount of what some might call "contempt" for professional Mac users, and we all eventually reach our breaking point. (admittedly, Apple has been doing that too! :D )

Iaian7
05-11-2019, 01:32 PM
To be absolutely clear: this has broken my heart. I've used Lightwave professionally (and for fun!) since about 2004. Amidst others' complaints about antiquated modelling paradigms or whatever...LightWave had always been the central toolset in countless 3D productions, and I loved it.

gar26lw
05-11-2019, 03:39 PM
what did you switch to?

erikals
05-11-2019, 05:12 PM
i'm sad to hear that  https://i.imgur.com/B8QSFA7.gif

the programmers did have lots of work on their hands, maybe not an excuse, but an explanation.

NT is going through some rocky terrain, but i hope and believe the worst part is over.

we'll see. hopefully Application X works out, even though all apps eventually have their Achilles heel.

l  l
l  l
l  l___
l_____\

Iaian7
05-11-2019, 06:23 PM
@Gar26lw - Using Modo at my office now for modelling, eventually switching some of our Cinema 4D work over to Modo as well (specifically realtime asset creation, where C4D has let us down on previous projects). Animation is currently being done in Cinema 4D, using Redshift or Octane to render (I've barely been involved on the pre-rendered side of things for the past half year!). We've been looking into Houdini as well, but haven't required that level of functionality on our projects just yet. No idea what I'll be using for personal projects. I still have Lightwave 2015 installed, of course, I just don't want to keep using a pipeline I can't depend on long-term. As soon as my Mac at home is updated to the latest OS, Lightwave is going to be dead...and since NewTek canceled my old-timer upgrade path, can't say I want to spent $600 on hobby software that can't render my existing projects.

@Erikals - I hope you're right. And yes, all apps have their Achilles heel...or heels! Oh how I loathe Modo's texturing and surfacing setup. Haha. Weird surface effects that could have taken 10 minutes in LW 2015's node editor are frustratingly tricky (maybe impossible) in Modo, and the simplest things result in silly amounts of project complexity. At least my current projects are realtime, so my surfacing work is all in Unity (thank goodness for nodal shader editors, I get to do so much cool stuff for AR/MR/VR!)...and I've already made use of Modo's group and global shading capabilities on several occasions, so it's not all bad. I'll eventually learn to tolerate Modo's materials, maybe even like it in some circumstances, but I'm sure I'll miss Lightwave's old node editor for quite a while. It was a nice blend of both simple and incredibly hackable.

I do hope Lightwave makes a come back. But in the years to come, if I'm somehow convinced the leadership isn't going to destroy an entire segment of the app and then refuse to support existing productions...I suspect studios (and CFOs) are going to be even harder to convince.

erikals
05-11-2019, 07:21 PM
there will be a change, for better or worse, especially now that Vizrt is in charge.

i'm Very curious to what they will do, So far, pretty quiet.

https://i.imgur.com/YNgTUkZ.png

wingzeta
05-11-2019, 08:32 PM
So you are saying LW 2015 no longer works in the latest OSX? I have a friend who is currently using it, but I'm not sure if his OS is up to date. I may have to warn him not to update if this is true. What is the issue exactly?

Iaian7
05-12-2019, 08:20 AM
What is the issue exactly?

https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?158132-Don-t-upgrade-to-MacOS-Mojave-yet!-Update-Hotfix-Released

All icons are blacked out. With Lightwave's text-heavy interface, I could manage in an emergency...but it's not what I'd call a usable app.

And a major correction to what I said previously: NewTek released a patch for LW 2018 within 2 days of users reporting issues after the public release of MacOS Mojave, which is significantly better than the month I thought it was delayed. I apologise for the misinformation! Downside being, it was only about 9 months from when they were selling LW 2015 to cutting off backwards compatibility and deciding LW 2015 was no longer supported (unusable for any Mac users running new hardware or an updated OS).

erikals
05-12-2019, 08:40 AM
i had this in the past with old graphics card drivers, and perhaps also an AMD card. might be worth a shot.

lardbros
05-12-2019, 01:20 PM
I wouldn't say it's Newtek's fault that Apple killed the LightWave UI. It's only Apple's fault.
Sort of feel it's a bit unfair to blame them for this at all.

EDIT
---
Ah, just saw you say they fixed it in 2 days.
I've always found LightWave support to be amazing to be honest. Still have major bugs open with Autodesk and 3dsmax, but they simply won't fix them. Newtek have fixed hundreds of mine.

hypersuperduper
05-12-2019, 02:09 PM
Newtek should probably have released a patch for 2015 for Mac to fix the UI problem. Particularly since they chose to have lightwave 2015 be the only way to render using the old engine. They even released a new plugin to load lwo3 files in lw2015 and earlier, so this was clearly the “official” solution. Unfortunately About a month after the new version of lightwave came out Apple released an OS update, and Mac users were forced to either migrate projects into lw2018+ Which isn’t always cut and dry or work blindly in lw2015 with a busted interface. Yes, this was because of something Apple did, but Newtek sells a product for OSX, which means they have a responsibility to keep up with the updates. To be fair, the current version they sell works fine (even if 2019 is more than a little buggy), but if part of the sales pitch is “don’t worry, you can always fire up 2015 if you need the old renderer” That version should ideally work.

I understand that it is hard for Newtek to justify the effort of updating a nearly 5 year old piece of software that they no longer sell in on a platform that a minority uses in order to fix a bug that they didn’t cause, but it probably would have gone a long way towards creating customer goodwill (For the few of us that use Mac at any rate), and customer goodwill is what this thread is all about.

jwiede
05-12-2019, 02:21 PM
I wouldn't say it's Newtek's fault that Apple killed the LightWave UI. It's only Apple's fault.

By that logic, the many plugins and catalogs of existing content broken by LW2018's release were "only Newtek's fault".

Realistically, the problem isn't the fix for LW2018, it's putting forth LW2015 as the solution for keeping existing content working, then not updating it as well. Apple bears some responsibility for changes (not all), but it wasn't Apple telling customers to keep using LW2015 for existing content, nor Apple who failed to provide any fully forward-compatible content migration path.

LW2018's UI was fixed with minor changes, Apple did provide a fairly simple, direct path forward. In contrast, there still isn't any visually-compatible content migration path for LW2015 content from Newtek, nor any strong evidence one is coming.

gar26lw
05-12-2019, 03:43 PM
if they don’t already they should have 2015.3 as an option in the store or allow it to be used when owning 2018+

jwiede
05-12-2019, 04:59 PM
if they don’t already they should have 2015.3 as an option in the store or allow it to be used when owning 2018+

Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.

hypersuperduper
05-12-2019, 11:10 PM
I think it is reasonable to expect some degree of continued support for a piece of software for at least a couple of years after it is no longer available for purchase. Considering that Newtek sells lightwave as a perpetual license and upgrades must be purchased separately, 2015.3 should have seen continued Bare-bones support until maybe the end of THIS year, which clearly includes basic OS Compatibility.

That said, at this point it is probably too late to make much of difference. This is something newtek should have done over a year ago. Those of us Mac users that have upgraded have likely come to terms with the situation, and those who haven’t upgraded haven’t been able to use the software for order a year anyways, and probably have found other solutions.

Hail
05-13-2019, 03:56 AM
Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.

Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.

Lw 2015 is 5 years old.
Which 3d software vendor still patches a year old software?

Maintenance and support can be expensive.
Isn't it only fair that after nearly 5 years of support for lw 2015, it was time to pull the plug and move on?

Updating your os while still on old software isn't exactly prudent and expecting the vendor to release a patch after 5 years of release isn't reasonable imho.

lardbros
05-13-2019, 04:32 AM
By that logic, the many plugins and catalogs of existing content broken by LW2018's release were "only Newtek's fault".

Yep, agree. How was it anyone else's fault? So, my logic is correct I guess.



Realistically, the problem isn't the fix for LW2018, it's putting forth LW2015 as the solution for keeping existing content working, then not updating it as well. Apple bears some responsibility for changes (not all), but it wasn't Apple telling customers to keep using LW2015 for existing content, nor Apple who failed to provide any fully forward-compatible content migration path.

LW2018's UI was fixed with minor changes, Apple did provide a fairly simple, direct path forward. In contrast, there still isn't any visually-compatible content migration path for LW2015 content from Newtek, nor any strong evidence one is coming.

Don't think any other package has a good conversion route from old non PBR shaders to their new PBR ones.
3ds max and Arnold, yes they have a conversion tool, but it never works and mostly makes an absolute hash of your scene.

At least in LightWave you can RMB click surfaces and have that convert things. It doesn't always work out perfectly, as the shading differences are too great.
I don't think it's very possible to fully convert an old-style shader in LW to PBR, it just doesn't work.

I've not found it to be much of an issue to be honest, but do understand that many people have hundreds or thousands of assets that need converting to 2018 style shading. In that case, it is a pain... BUT, like I said, they'd be in the same boat if they were using 3ds Max and converting from Mental Ray to Arnold. I didn't hear many people moaning about converting assets from mental ray over to Arnold... why would you complain when you're going from an old renderer with no PBR materials and tonnes of 'gotchas' to Arnold which is a great renderer. Similarly, the new PBR renderer/shaders/lights in LW 2018 is so far above the old LW renderer in terms of making things look nice.


I do sort of think NewTek should sort out 2015.3 to work on new Mac's but it would have to be as a gesture of goodwill really... otherwise they'll be supporting all versions of LW back to v6.5 or something.
Which is another thing, Deuce does support users on ancient versions of LightWave, which he chooses to do, but which other software vendor ever does that? :)

jwiede
05-13-2019, 10:39 AM
Lw 2015 is 5 years old.
Which 3d software vendor still patches a year old software?

That it is 5 years old is irrelevant, it was the "current release version" up until Jan 2018 (only a year and a half ago), and again, it was Newtek that CHOSE to tell customers to rely on LW2015 for existing content. And yes, the other 3D pkg vendors absolutely DO provide patches for the "previous version" (which is what LW2015 was when LW2018 was released).

"5 years old"...yeesh. Did you really want to bring up Newtek's little "Customers, GFY!" sabbatical, because that's the cause of the long gap -- and another extremely poor Newtek choice when it came to Lightwave customer handling.

Other 3D pkgs didn't take away the abilities of their software to continue to render older-surfaced models and scenes, even after adding newer PBR render engines. Newtek chose to do so (remove the old renderer), while also choosing NOT to update/fix LW2015, leaving customers with NO options to access / view / render existing content in the way it was intended.

Oh well, all that's left is denouement.

lardbros
05-13-2019, 11:04 AM
That it is 5 years old is irrelevant, it was the "current release version" up until Jan 2018 (only a year and a half ago), and again, it was Newtek that CHOSE to tell customers to rely on LW2015 for existing content. And yes, the other 3D pkg vendors absolutely DO provide patches for the "previous version" (which is what LW2015 was when LW2018 was released).

"5 years old"...yeesh. Did you really want to bring up Newtek's little "Customers, GFY!" sabbatical, because that's the cause of the long gap -- and another extremely poor Newtek choice when it came to Lightwave customer handling.

Other 3D pkgs didn't take away the abilities of their software to continue to render older-surfaced models and scenes, even after adding newer PBR render engines. Newtek chose to do so (remove the old renderer), while also choosing NOT to update/fix LW2015, leaving customers with NO options to access / view / render existing content in the way it was intended.

Oh well, all that's left is denouement.


Other packages DID remove renderers and give you no valid option to convert. Autodesk did it with Mental Ray and 3ds Max when they moved to ART renderer and then Arnold!!

- It used to have Mental Ray built in, and had done for YEARS.
- They added their own renderer called ART (which didn't even have any passes rendering).
- They then gave users Arnold the next year, but you can't use it on a render farm unless you license every node.

Mental Ray wasn't PBR, so if you got the version where they included the Autodesk renderer ART, you would have had to convert all your materials to that new shader, which was PBR.

Then when they shipped with Arnold, you either had to convert again manually to the Arnold shader, or hope that the PBR material for the ART renderer worked (in some cases it doesn't render correctly.)

I also gather that Autodesk did the same with Maya didn't they?

hrgiger
05-13-2019, 12:36 PM
As long as we can point to someone else who did something similar, we can feel better for the decisions made here. But on that front, I don't see it as realistic for Newtek, ok well VizRT to support or patch past versions of the software. They had ample time to do so during the 2015 cycle with 3 plus years . Always been in favor of breaking the past if necessary to make future versions better.
Unfortunately in LightWave's case, the 'replacing systems' approach they took with the renderer seems to have stopped there. The whole points, polys, edges being visible now to Layout appears to not be the case and so no closer to having any real change in the way LW operates. So LW will sadly continue to continue its long path into irrelevance. Of course, its all up to VizRT now what path, if any, LW will follow. And more to the point of the original subject of the thread, whether or not VizRT will be any more cooperating or supportive of LW, of if they'll treat it with the same amount of indifference that Newtek had.

erikals
05-13-2019, 02:51 PM
The whole points, polys, edges being visible now to Layout appears to not be the case
as far as i recall, Chuck told you in an earlier post that they were, just not available.
when they will be available as a function however, no idea.

there's no point in waiting for XYZ function in LightWave, just take the app for what it is, an alternative to Blender.
why i don't use the other apps >

Maya - subscription, cost, "slow" community (or at least used to be)
Max - subscription, cost
Blender - workflow *
C4D - cost
Modo - cost, lack of certain CA tools, node tree
Houdini - workflow *

though i do use *2 of these to some degree

LightWave has a potential to be Fantastic, so don't rule it out.

https://i.imgur.com/CDsgNgH.png

raymondtrace
05-13-2019, 04:22 PM
...why i don't use the other apps >

Maya - subscription, cost, "slow" community (or at least used to be)...

We probably also don't use Maya because it is clearly doomed.

https://www.wired.com/2001/11/maya-doomed-on-os-x/

Predictions are futile, regardless of the 3D app.

jwiede
05-13-2019, 04:38 PM
And more to the point of the original subject of the thread, whether or not VizRT will be any more cooperating or supportive of LW, of if they'll treat it with the same amount of indifference that Newtek had.

Unfortunately, the more time that passes without someone from Vizrt stepping forth and discussing their intentions regarding Lightwave support and development, the more likely it is that Vizrt will not support or develop Lightwave.

erikals
05-13-2019, 05:27 PM
We probably also don't use Maya because it is clearly doomed.
https://www.wired.com/2001/11/maya-doomed-on-os-x/
Predictions are futile, regardless of the 3D app.

https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif so far so good for Maya, but indeed, grab some Coffee, and check this Maya review...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx1RB4XDQ7Q#t=13m47s

you get what you pay for... ?
open question

hrgiger
05-13-2019, 05:41 PM
Unfortunately, the more time that passes without someone from Vizrt stepping forth and discussing their intentions regarding Lightwave support and development, the more likely it is that Vizrt will not support or develop Lightwave.

I wouldn't say that yet. I mean, I would think it would take some time to make some decisions on what is going to change and there would have to be time to make plans(if they haven't already). That said, nothing about the merger indicated that VizRT's interest in NT had anything to do with LW so I'm certainly not feeling at all that the VizRT acquisition means anything positive for LW.
@Erikals- I don't recall what Chuck said exactly but given that these changes were supposed to be in 2018, the fact that its not 'available still now, I can only state the present. Not to mention, talk of developing modeling in Layout goes back over a decade ago to changes made for LW 9. So if you're still holding on to that hope/reality, you must be a man of faith. LightWave always has had the potential to be great, but Newtek took any momentum that LW had back in the day when I first started using and essentially squandered it by not properly supporting, not promoting or advertising and not staying committed to any direction that the software was heading at any point in time over the last two decades.

In no way is LightWave an alternative to Blender... Not in cost, not in features and not in direction. As far as the workflow of Blender, I get people's impression of poor workflow. I felt the same for some time. But the more time I spend in it(2.8 specifically), the more I see my impression of its workflow was simply my own lack of understanding.

Nicolas Jordan
05-13-2019, 08:22 PM
I'm going to guess that it might be at least 1-2 years before we see any effect this acquisition might have on Lightwave. It's going to take some time to start turning the Newtek ship in the direction they would like it to go.

erikals
05-13-2019, 08:58 PM
In no way is LightWave an alternative to Blender... Not in cost, not in features and not in direction.
Not in cost - lets face it, no one can beat the Blender cost
Not in features - i feel that is a very biased claim...
- can Blender do what IKBooster can do?
- can Blender do what RHiggit can do?
- is there a tool like LWCad for it?
- does it have a MetaMesh equivalent?
- does its smoke fluids compare to Turbulence?
- etc etc etc
if you need >those< specific kind of features, isn't LightWave still reliable? let me answer that > yes it is.
Not in direction - yes, nothing new though.

i understand the frustration, but let's not paint it all black

there is still good use for LightWave, for some, when one put one's mind to it

https://i.imgur.com/F2VgZzZ.png

hrgiger
05-13-2019, 10:13 PM
As far as the features...
Well first, almost no one uses IK boost. Larry when he was alive and Ryan and I think it took some content/training from Ryan to actually get some information about IKBoost out there after all this time. But yes, someone made a full body IK system called BEPUik. That said, the animation tools in Blender are pretty awesome. You should take a look at Bendy bones. Obviously the Blender Institute movie projects show what can be done. Just look at what Chris Jones is doing since he switched to Blender from LightWave. https://blenderartists.org/t/human-progress/1143224
Thing is, if you want something in Blender, there's probably an add on for it either free or usually cheap. There are several add ons which mimic a lot of LWCAD functions. Even more appealing is that a lot of these add-ons take advantage of Blenders modifier system so you can work non-destructively.
Nothing that I'm aware of as far as meta-mesh/Mesh Fusion as far as SubD Booleans but then there are nothing like the blender Boolean in System in LW either. Booleans are fast, flexible and are often used as modifiers so you can edit them at any time. Boolean operations are saved to a collection that you can go back and change or move any of your cutter shapes, even if you've closed your scene and come back. Take a look at add ons like Boxcutter or hardops to see how insanely fast and easy Booleans are to work with.
Yes, Blender is very capable of doing fluid smoke, fire, fluids and I'd say the results are comparable to Turbulence. And included with Blender. Of course, there are add ons like Flip fluids (for about $70 I think) which are pretty incredible.
Those are just the things you mentioned. There are so many things Blender has that LW doesn't so that's why I said its not an alternative.
Native GPU rendering with cycles, Render passes, principled hair shader, compositing, retopology, Micropoly displacement, Open Shading language, native sculpting, motion tracking, hair dynamics,... Its also a integrated application without the drawbacks of separation. This summer, things like the cloth simulation will get a rewrite and the particle system is going to be replaced... And of course I don't have to point out the results that Eevee is already capable of.

If people like using Lightwave, not trying to say they shouldn't. But it would be a shame to write off Blender as not an app you should also pick up.

erikals
05-13-2019, 10:41 PM
- unfortunately the BEPUik project for Blender looks to be discontinued.
- cycles is fast enough, but not when rendering smoke
- nothing like LWCAD, but yes, love many of those modeling tools

some stuff is nice in LW and some stuff is nice is B
so we agree to some things  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif


But it would be a shame to write off Blender as not an app you should also pick up.
but i did, it's installed alright  https://i.imgur.com/JsBiFVj.gif

gdkeast
05-14-2019, 12:02 AM
LightWave and where it is going perhaps will always be somewhat of a mystery. LW 2019 seemed to catch many off guard, but in a good way. But mum definitely seemed to be the word even pre-acquistion. For me, the most telling thing will be LW 2020, which I have to believe is in the works, and which I hope surprises everyone. The changes that 2018 and 2019 brought were inspiring and with OD Tools 2019, I don't have anything to complain about, just a lot to learn.

Ztreem
05-14-2019, 01:46 AM
- unfortunately the BEPUik project for Blender looks to be discontinued.
- cycles is fast enough, but not when rendering smoke
- nothing like LWCAD, but yes, love many of those modeling tools

some stuff is nice in LW and some stuff is nice is B
so we agree to some things  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif


but i did, it's installed alright  https://i.imgur.com/JsBiFVj.gif

look at FreeIK instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=U6NG_13RadU

You can render smoke in Eevee in realtime and it looks almost as good as in Cycles.

What in LWCAD? there are a lot of tools in there and most of them is not needed in Blender as it has similar features already.

But then again there are so much things in Blender that LW doesn't have or come close too. You can buy all the plugins for LW that exist today and you're still not even close to half of the capability and nice workflow you have in Blender.

just take a look at this. You can ofcourse wait for a modeler update still separeted from layout, but this can be used now. no need to wait.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ARlbpOMBM

gar26lw
05-14-2019, 04:05 AM
As far as the features...
Just look at what Chris Jones is doing since he switched to Blender from LightWave. https://blenderartists.org/t/human-progress/1143224
Thing is, if you want something in Blender, there's probably an add on for it either free or usually cheap.

yeah, shame he passed over. Those kind of guys who post wip really draw attention to the software. Lightwave had that, once. Same with the plugins; it had a plugin for everything.
Blender has swapped places with Lightwave. I see a lot of inspiring stuff from blender these days and more pov-ray stuff from Lightwave :(

fully converted ? awaiting the dissing of modo :P hehe

colkai
05-14-2019, 04:20 AM
>> - can Blender do what IKBooster can do?
>> - can Blender do what RHiggit can do?
>> - is there a tool like LWCad for it?

To be fair, when you start talking 3rd party plugins, then arguably, Lightwave doesn't actually do those things.
As regards LWCAd, which was the main reason I stuck with LW for so long, god I love that plugin and for sure, would love that for Blender. However, there are a few, built in, arch viz options for Blender and the snapping and edge work certainly was an improvement over LW for me. Though htere are features from LWCAD I would still like. As I say though, without LWCAD, modeller was, shall we say, languishing on the back burner.

I think LW still holds a place for people who are "layout centric" and for sure, that, historically, has been where the focus has been.

Marander
05-14-2019, 04:21 AM
I don't recall what Chuck said exactly but given that these changes were supposed to be in 2018, the fact that its not 'available still now, I can only state the present.

Yeah exactly (statements about Layout being aware of polys / points / edges), not implemented in UI nor in SDK.

The same applies to Hydra Engine (at least a well performing one that deserves its name) and Metamorphic improvements.

Performance actually got worse and is far behind other applications and I don't see any improvement of Metamorphic over the plugin version. Very basic and slow sculpting and unusable slow weight painting.

My guess is that most of these statements were based on information of the former LW3DG president which was all smoke and mirrors (along with the full mouthed statements that LWNext will have the most modern architecture of all 3D applications which is absolutely ridiculous and the opposite is the case).

TheLexx
05-14-2019, 04:57 AM
Cost aside, we should see in the coming months a time where side by side will exist Blender 2.8, Lightwave 2020 and Cinema 4D R21, and I think one important consideration is still the fastest returns for the least learning curve (I'm thinking individuals rather than teams). From a distance Blender still looks frightening to me....though strangely exciting. So it is partly down to transferrable skills, like if one is mentally wedded to the software or the process. :)

erikals
05-14-2019, 05:11 AM
But then again there are so much things in Blender that LW doesn't have or come close too.
yes, so one should use both.

i'm sure people have the same arguments when it comes to
-Maya vs Blender
-Max vs Blender
-Modo vs Blender

cost included, ...and so on

https://i.imgur.com/EnI47LA.png

Ztreem
05-14-2019, 06:30 AM
yes, so one should use both.

i'm sure people have the same arguments when it comes to
-Maya vs Blender
-Max vs Blender
-Modo vs Blender

cost included, ...and so on



Sure, I read a thread at autodesk where people moaning why Maya don't have anything similar to Eevee yet.

It's only tools, use as many as you need and can afford.

If you're a Lightwave user adding Blender is a big gain. If you're a Blender user adding Lightwave is not much of a gain. (Edit: This is today, in the future it could be different)

TheLexx
05-14-2019, 07:13 AM
If you're a Lightwave user adding Blender is a big gain. If you're a Blender user adding Lightwave is not much of a gain. (Edit: This is today, in the future it could be different)

True that one shouldn't shut oneself off from knowledge, but it would be a hassle (or enlightenment :yoda:) to learn half a dozen softwares to, say 80%, only to find that 50% of a couple would have been fine after all. Then again, Blender has created some sort of juggernaut mentality "Get onboard or be left at the station, but delay and it only becomes harder to reach your destination !".

Maybe if something already works in reasonable time, then don't budge an inch. I see vids where (paraphrasing) the instructor is like "I built this in Silo, then tweaked it in ZBrush, then took it to Marvelous, then imported to Maya, then rendered in Redshift, then tweaked in Photoshop, then....." you get the picture (then :D).

My personal curiosity is which might be best in a character shootout for hair between LW, 4D and 2.8. One thing for CA is I don't believe Blender or 4D has any equivalent of TAFA or Mimic yet. Also sculpting is definitely cool but not a magic bullet.

:)

Ztreem
05-14-2019, 07:25 AM
One thing for CA is I don't believe Blender or 4D has any equivalent of TAFA or Mimic yet.
:)

Blender has an addon for automatic lipsync with rhubarb-lip-sync.

hrgiger
05-14-2019, 07:25 AM
I don't look at cost (well its not a priority when choosing software anyway). the fact that Blender is free to download has nothing to do with picking it up. I've spent just as much on Blender this year as I did on Modo in both donations to the Blender Foundation as well as paid add-ons. The idea that Blender is 'free' is oversimplifying it. Blender costs money to develop just like every other piece of software out there so if you want it to continually improve, you pay for it one way or the other. And no, not dissing Modo, it will continue to be my main app for the foreseeable future, Blender is just another tool that does some things incredibly well.
LightWave in its current form doesn't add anything to the mix. VizRT will change that or it won't.

lardbros
05-14-2019, 07:30 AM
Sure, I read a thread at autodesk where people moaning why Maya don't have anything similar to Eevee yet.

It's only tools, use as many as you need and can afford.

If you're a Lightwave user adding Blender is a big gain. If you're a Blender user adding Lightwave is not much of a gain. (Edit: This is today, in the future it could be different)

This is how I feel, exactly this... it's a very good sentiment.
They're all just tools, use whatever you want/need to get the job done :)

Don't stress if another app has features you want, just use that app.

raymondtrace
05-14-2019, 07:31 AM
...- unfortunately the BEPUik project for Blender looks to be discontinued...


look at FreeIK instead...

These two projects are a good example of caution.

The developer of BEPUik did this on the side, not professionally. The extremely low barrier of entry to a GPL ecosystem is also a weak barrier to keep 3rd party developers locked in and engaged. Without a good business model as an outside developer, users can't really depend on the add-on. Most good add-ons break with each new B release and require constant maintenance.

(yes, plugin developers for LW also need good business models...and some assurance that the core application is dependable)

Like many add-ons, FreeIK is GPL. That means you don't really need to pay the asking price to get it. This also makes developers question their efforts for development if they're not likely to be paid.

B has been around for 2 decades. It does not take a genius to realize its value. So I'm wondering why these threads ramble on for a product that really needs no marketing...especially in a forum for another product.

Sure, I use B as well...but I come here to discuss LW.

hypersuperduper
05-14-2019, 01:16 PM
All threads lead to blender... when nobody has anything else useful to contribute.

erikals
05-14-2019, 02:46 PM
So I'm wondering why these threads ramble on for a product that really needs no marketing...especially in a forum for another product.
because some think LightWave has next to no value compared to Blender.

and i have to admit, it is a very strong competitor.

i'm just advocating that if you use workflow "A5 / A3" instead of "A1 / A7 / A2" then LightWave has its place.

erikals
05-14-2019, 03:14 PM
I don't look at cost (well its not a priority when choosing software anyway)
i do, i certainly do.


Well first, almost no one uses IK boost.
ahem. not true, even though the number might not be staggering, and IKB is not a "solution to everything CA based"


You can render smoke in Eevee in real-time and it looks almost as good as in Cycles.
Eevee does flicker, has lower render quality, and can't use it for photo-real animation.
(like stated from the Blender foundation themselves)


What in LWCAD? there are a lot of tools in there and most of them is not needed in Blender as it has similar features already.
snapping and just the workflow speed in general.


Blender has an addon for automatic lip-sync with rhubarb-lip-sync.
not an equivalent of TAFA in any way.

i also wish Blender had Syflex support. perhaps the new Cloth solver they are working on will be great. perhaps.


http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngraymondtrace BEPUik / FreeIK. These two projects are a good example of caution.
yes, many Blender projects just seem to "dissipate"


again, i do use Blender, together with LightWave, and Houdini. +3DCoat.

is LightWave improving at an alright speed. i believe it finally is.
Blender + plugins isn't better at absolutely everything that LightWave + plugins is capable of.
does LightWave need to gear up? > Sure. is LightWave still viable in several situations? Yes.



https://i.imgur.com/8qaMHkt.png

Ztreem
05-14-2019, 03:27 PM
i do, i cetainly do.


Eevee does flicker, has lower render quality, and can't use it for professional animation.
(like stated from the Blender foundation themseves)




not an equivalent of TAFA in any way.

i also wish Blender had Syflex support. perhaps the new Cloth solver they are working on will be great. perhaps.

I’ve already used eevee for professional work and many others as well. Eevee saved my butt on my last project. Many times you can’t notice the difference between cycles and eevee, only the render time. It’s not a solution for every project but works for many and is a good companion while working.

The only thing I know about TAFA is that it’s made by timothy alby a long time ago and do morphmixing for lipsync.

raymondtrace
05-14-2019, 03:32 PM
Blender has an addon for automatic lipsync with rhubarb-lip-sync.

Everybody has an addon for automatic lipsync with Rhubarb. For integration with LW, one just needs to craft a py frontend...or use it immediately as a standalone command line tool.

https://github.com/DanielSWolf/rhubarb-lip-sync

erikals
05-14-2019, 04:06 PM
I’ve already used Eevee for professional work and many others as well. Eevee saved my butt on my last project. Many times you can’t notice the difference between cycles and Eevee, only the render time. It’s not a solution for every project but works for many and is a good companion while working.

sorry, i used the wrong word there, photo-real was the word.
so no, Turbulence beats Blender in that regard.

though sure, it can (and should) be used in several other situations.

gar26lw
05-14-2019, 04:11 PM
i guess blender will get mentioned less when there is something to talk about regarding lightwave. back to silence atm.
don’t see any blog update or dev post.

just about all companies do this now.

erikals
05-14-2019, 04:19 PM
just about all companies do this now.
NT's lack of LightWave marketing has been mentioned hundreds of times. (literally)
most of us i believe, are tired of writing it, but also reading it.

https://i.imgur.com/NFrUHsk.gif

Ztreem
05-14-2019, 05:34 PM
sorry, i used the wrong word there, photo-real was the word.
so no, Turbulence beats Blender in that regard.

though sure, it can (and should) be used in several other situations.

You can still render in cycles if you need higher quality and use gpu’s to render quicker than LW. So I don’t see why turbulence is so much better? Is it even still developed?

erikals
05-14-2019, 05:44 PM
use gpu’s to render quicker than LW.
perhaps.


Is it even still developed?
yes, but at a slow phase.

hrgiger
05-14-2019, 11:04 PM
Here are thousands of instances. 2 seconds to render in Eevee. Of course, the viewport looks just about identical.

144995

OlaHaldor
05-15-2019, 01:10 AM
From the time TurbulenceFD2 was announced to be "in development" until now, you could've picked up Blender or Houdini and become quite good with it. So yes, TFD2 is insanely progressing very slow, and with very little, if any, communication from the dev.


I can understand why people abandon LW, and I can see why some stick with it. Some rely on certain tools (like me) which simply isn't available, or as good in other packages. These tools are 3rd party plugins or scripts though, so it's not about LW itself, but the ease of use and complexity of the result these plugins enables you to do.

Others rely on LW for the entire process, from model to animation and render. As much as it may sound stupid, I'm thoroughly in awe for you guys.


As pricing on certain software has become more aggressive (better for us users!), LW has become more of a tool in the toolbox for me than *the* tool.

erikals
05-15-2019, 09:48 AM
Here are thousands of instances. 2 seconds to render in Eevee. Of course, the viewport looks just about identical.

144995
all dense-geometry Eevee renders i've seen has animated splotching.
not sure, but i bet that's one of the reasons the Blender Foundation says it will not replace Cycles.
i'd LOVE to be wrong, and that Eevee is the Revolution that you claim it is.

is Eevee great? Yes
is Eevee a close to complete Cycles replacement? Not by far.
...but please prove me wrong.

where are the Grass and Fur Eevee animations that do not Flicker/Splotch?

erikals
05-15-2019, 11:10 AM
hrgiger.... is there any specific tool / tools / workflows where you feel LightWave excel ? plugins or not.

not saying there must be.

prometheus
05-15-2019, 11:31 AM
perhaps.


yes, but at a slow phase.

As for me comparing blender fire and smoke VS turbulenceFD..

Volumetric rendering...Way faster in blender than TFD in lightwave which is CPU only..so I can not agree on it being slow, but it depends on your graphics card of course (if you use GPU which can have limits on resoluion) and blender fire and smoke which also comes with a PBR volumetric model, turbulenceFD and lightwave doesn´t.
The turbulenceFD rendering of smoke is just too slow..and if you activate multiple scattering it becomes ridiculous slow with constant calculation and time bar showcasing it for every shading tweak you do, in blender that isn´t the case.

What seems to be better in turbulence though is the quality of the resolution, where blender often has stepping issues if you do not set your resolution high enough in various areas, so it is trickier to get right I think, tweaking of the fireshader curves in lightwave and TFD is horribly slow..if you use VPR, if not it will be hard to tell what you tweak so it really needs to improve in that area.

TurbulenceFD seem to be faster when simulating at higher scales and resolutions though than blender, but it lacks both fire and smoke openGL presentation..which blender has.
The native forces in blender affects both rigid bodies and fluids, in lightwave and with TFD that is not the case, any TFD force will only affect the fluids..not any rigid body.

Guess you need octane if you want speedy tfd renders.

And Blender has weight paint emission for fluids, lightwave and TFD doesn´t.

To Note..
If you do use GPU rendering in blender, you have to be careful and not having to low step size, cuda rendering may fail in such case (low step size= high quality)

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 11:56 AM
hrgiger.... is there any specific tool / tools / workflows where you feel LightWave excel ? plugins or not.

not saying there must be.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I obviously feel like LW wasn't contributing anything to the way I work now so my last version of LW was 2015. Of course I supported Viktor/LWCAD while I was using LW because he was the only thing adding anything to Modelers outdated toolset. But in the end, LWCAD, 3rd powers, OD tools, sensei... can't make up for the kinds of procedural tools that exist today in every app except for LW. Not their fault, just a LW limitation.
LightWave is special to people that have used it for any length of time and I get it. I certainly stuck around longer then it made sense to do so. I wanted it to succeed, wanted it to be a tool that was taken seriously and supported. If people enjoy using it, they should. But in my view, LW would be the wrong choice for anyone starting out today. There would be no benefit it it for them when there are other viable options, especially if they want to work in this field.

gar26lw
05-15-2019, 12:55 PM
thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.

i still find that even within focus of dev in layout? it is the main problem with lightwave.
no snapping, no live array tools, no industry standard qwerty ‘maya’ shortcuts, no decent painting tools, no gpu support, no point, poly and edge support, no good curve support and deformations. it’s still the area that needs focus.

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 01:51 PM
thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.



Sigh. Gar26lw, that is a such a tired argument and just a falsehood. It also so incredibly generalized to simply say, oh modeler is faster to so something than another app. Maybe that's true for you because you simply don't know those other apps, and if you do, likely not as well as you know modeler because you're likely not spent the time or due diligence to vet that statement you're making. I can assure you, that is just ignorance talking (as in lack of knowing). I know that because I believed that noise at one time also. What you're not factoring in with such a statement are things like how much faster other apps are in terms of their modeling performance, their workflows or even their ability to change their minds about a particular modeling operation at any point during the modeling. What's faster, rebuilding a part of an object because its not working out, or changing some settings like you can in a procedural method? Is it faster to generate a bunch of polygon duplicates or is it faster to work with modeling instances which change as you change the base shape in various array options. Modeler is no faster or slower than working in any other type of app that I've encounted. However, the lack of options as well as the lack of flexibility in workflow are just hinderances to working efficiently. So faster? Not overall by any means.

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 02:01 PM
all dense-geometry Eevee renders i've seen has animated splotching.
not sure, but i bet that's one of the reasons the Blender Foundation says it will not replace Cycles.
i'd LOVE to be wrong, and that Eevee is the Revolution that you claim it is.

is Eevee great? Yes
is Eevee a close to complete Cycles replacement? Not by far.
...but please prove me wrong.

where are the Grass and Fur Eevee animations that do not Flicker/Splotch?

As far as rendering with Eevee, I haven't seen a problem with flickering and Eevee doesn't have 'set' output, you can increase the number of samples it uses. For this render, I only used 128 samples, and it rendered at about 4 seconds or so per frame. Could double it and probably remove any grain in the render you see in it. Eevee very much can be used for final rendering output for a lot of cases.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hra73R15Qt8&feature=youtu.be

erikals
05-15-2019, 02:10 PM
lots of splotches in that video, quite a lot,

but i'll give it some further test-runs in the near future with 1500 samples or such.

might work. no luck so far, but who knows.

impressive AntiAliasing though.

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 02:13 PM
As I already said, splotches are from the samples, that has nothing to do with flickering. I can increase the samples to as many as I need to clear any noise/splotches up in the render. You could probably get by with double that or even triple. 1500 might be overkill.

erikals
05-15-2019, 02:22 PM
i do believe that something like Eevee is the future of rendering, so there is that. i'll investigate further.

hypersuperduper
05-15-2019, 02:23 PM
Srsly tho, why has this thread turned into THIS thread? I thought we were talking about marketing and customer outreach and how newtek needs to do it better, and now we are talking about blender renderers. Again.

raymondtrace
05-15-2019, 02:30 PM
Srsly tho, why has this thread turned into THIS thread? I thought we were talking about marketing and customer outreach and how newtek needs to do it better, and now we are talking about blender renderers. Again.

Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 02:35 PM
Well getting back again to the core of this thread, feel free to suggest ideas for marketing and customer outreach all you want. Just like the hundreds of threads on this very topic over the years on this board. They might even be acknowledged at some point by a NT/VizRT representative. But it will be for all intents and purposes, ignored. Just like all the ones in the past. Which is exactly the kind of thing David Ridlen was suggesting.

hypersuperduper
05-15-2019, 02:47 PM
Seems somewhat more likely that Newtek/Vizrt might glean some useful input (however likely or unlikely that may be) if it stays more or less on topic. There was som hard and good criticism that is getting buried. Just saying.

erikals
05-15-2019, 02:47 PM
Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.
on the other hand, it is crucial that NT understands the market itself.
and this thread is All about that, imho.

SBowie
05-15-2019, 03:13 PM
Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.That's true. Not to speak for Chuck, but I'm swamped with other things, and - while monitoring this thread - have simply been inclined to let it meander naturally as those involved weary of one aspect or another in turn.

erikals
05-15-2019, 03:36 PM
i'm glad we got to discuss it though, since this discussion went deeper into comparing the misc features.

for now, over and out.



https://i.imgur.com/TUvPnCQ.png

gar26lw
05-15-2019, 05:40 PM
Sigh. Gar26lw, that is a such a tired argument and just a falsehood. It also so incredibly generalized to simply say, oh modeler is faster to so something than another app. Maybe that's true for you because you simply don't know those other apps, and if you do, likely not as well as you know modeler because you're likely not spent the time or due diligence to vet that statement you're making. I can assure you, that is just ignorance talking (as in lack of knowing). I know that because I believed that noise at one time also. What you're not factoring in with such a statement are things like how much faster other apps are in terms of their modeling performance, their workflows or even their ability to change their minds about a particular modeling operation at any point during the modeling. What's faster, rebuilding a part of an object because its not working out, or changing some settings like you can in a procedural method? Is it faster to generate a bunch of polygon duplicates or is it faster to work with modeling instances which change as you change the base shape in various array options. Modeler is no faster or slower than working in any other type of app that I've encounted. However, the lack of options as well as the lack of flexibility in workflow are just hinderances to working efficiently. So faster? Not overall by any means.

nah, I use the other apps, all of them in prolonged periods of production apart from blender, which I am considering atm. Don't presume/assume.

thankyou for defining ignorance. ;)

jwiede
05-15-2019, 07:05 PM
nah, I use the other apps, all of them in prolonged periods of production apart from blender, which I am considering atm.

Yet you mention all the cases where Modeler is so much faster, without actually specifying even a single verifiable scenario or measurable workflow. Essentially you're making an empty, unverifiable claim with no discernable basis -- it's the argumentative equivalent" of a "friend of a friend" story.

Come up with examples that are non-trivial complexity, workflow significant, plus objectively and reliably measurable, and then your argument will have a viable basis.

Nicolas Jordan
05-15-2019, 08:12 PM
thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.

i still find that even within focus of dev in layout? it is the main problem with lightwave.
no snapping, no live array tools, no industry standard qwerty ‘maya’ shortcuts, no decent painting tools, no gpu support, no point, poly and edge support, no good curve support and deformations. it’s still the area that needs focus.

For those who want proper snapping then LWCAD is needed to do that. I don't think I would still be using Lightwave if it wasn't for LWCAD.

hrgiger
05-15-2019, 09:21 PM
Yet you mention all the cases where Modeler is so much faster, without actually specifying even a single verifiable scenario or measurable workflow. Essentially you're making an empty, unverifiable claim with no discernable basis -- it's the argumentative equivalent" of a "friend of a friend" story.

Come up with examples that are non-trivial complexity, workflow significant, plus objectively and reliably measurable, and then your argument will have a viable basis.

Not much point in debating it. Its the same counterpoint that's always used when discussing why Modeler has stagnated over the last 20 years. Oh, but its so much quicker is the argument. Because there is nothing else to point out as a benefit. And the reason its seen as 'quick' is because its an incredibly outdated and simple toolset. There's no item mode to stumble on, its raw editing of points, polygons and edges(sort of on that last one), there are no procedural methods to add to the overhead or learning, it's entirely isolated from any type of system functionalty…. it is a raw point, edge and polygon pusher. It has no benefits that every other app out there provides. That's why it is argued as being quick. Because of its extreme limitations.

Agree Nicholas, its the only thing that kept me in modeler the last few years I had LightWave.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-15-2019, 10:57 PM
Exactly. Complexity comes at a price. LW is faster and less clicky than Modo, Max and Blender...at least with LW Cad, 3rd Powers suite and TrueArt tools like EasySplit. LW 2019 let's you model with nothing but hotkeys and fast, fluid Wacom strokes on a beautiful 4k screen or dual screens. It's like creating on an endless canvas with the polygons-like-pixels layers providing "poorman nondestructive" space to work and play and experiment. Modo comes close but not once LW Cad, 3rd Powers and 4k monitors come into play.

The UV tools are sadly outdated and the lack of proceduralism makes Modeler far less flexible but LW developers are aware. We can only hope LW 2020 at long last modernizes Modeler. LW team is no doubt hard at work on something!

In short, I still love Modeling in Lightwave but it would be foolish not to use or at least evaluate other tools. Lightwave can be used alongside other packages relatively seamlessly thanks to Origami Digital.

hrgiger
05-16-2019, 12:11 AM
That's what i'm saying, there really isn't a price for that complexity. That's just the the myth I'm talking about and the line people give when you use LW as to why you would use tools that literally hinge on third party tools which, given past history, could go away at any point. "I don't have to worry about that extra complexity and so that makes working in modeler fast". The truth is, the lack of complexity has driven most of the serious users of LW away. Being simple and limited doesn't make you faster, it just makes you feel faster because you come to think those things are unnecessary. Yet its where things have been for some time and moving ever further in that direction all the time.
Every app is able to be driven with hotkeys, used on dual monitors, work on wacoms, most scale up fine. Yes, Modo needs to add resolution scaling, but it already can be used on 4k monitors, there are just some issues that scaling would address. Modo does most everything native that third powers offers and I'd say even better since things like conforming a mesh or Mesh Fusion or just regular booleans are procedural tools so infinitely more flexible which can be changed or edited at any time. Modo also offers a lot of what LWCAD does (as does Blender), there are only a few tools that I really miss.

erikals
05-16-2019, 12:38 AM
i was done with this thread, but as far as modeling and speed, someone should make several side-by-side videos,
using different factors.
add a stopwatch.

only then will you get close to the "true /undeniable" result


ok, mic out, again...

https://i.imgur.com/TUvPnCQ.png

hypersuperduper
05-16-2019, 12:46 AM
Standard Copy/paste between layers and dead simple scratch layers make working in modeler more like working in illustrator or photoshop than typical 3D apps which for some people, myself included, feels very fast and FEELING fast is important. Is it objectively faster than blender or other apps with the standard scene vs object mode paradigm? Probably not (although it probably isn’t really a whole heck of a lot slower either in many cases) and it is hard to make a good argument that it is worth the trade offs lightwave users are forced to make, but to poo poo others appreciation of the advantages of the modeler way of working, and simplicity IS an advantage, is silly.

To put it another way: by all rights, based on features alone, modeler SHOULD have been relegated to the trash heap of history a decade ago and yet it keeps stubbornly trudging along doing things it’s own backwards way. Maybe it’s NOT due to lightwave users ignorance. MAYBE it is due to some qualities that it has that other software doesn’t have. Lightwave users don’t have to justify why they enjoy using modeler any more than an artist has to defend his choice of paintbrush.

lardbros
05-16-2019, 01:06 AM
Modeller is still very useful to me too... When I've used 3dsmax for decades, I ALWAYS jump back to LightWave for the trickier stuff.
Bits and pieces that need modelling to exact scales is really frickin difficult in 3dsmax, maintaining a perfect mesh is also quite tricky in Max too.
Another thing... The round edges tools are better in LightWave, even if they can be a little bit finicky about their use, and Modeller is absolutely brilliant for preparing stuff to 3d print. It's SO much easier to find flaws in meshes and fix them up.
3ds max has actual built in tools to help fix a 3d model, it'll even highlight the edges or polygons at fault, but actually fixing them is just so much faster in LightWave than in 3ds Max.

I totally get that Modeller is just faster than some other apps, especially if you're used to the way it works.

Not sure why some of you guys still even come here. All you literally do is turn every thread into one where LightWave users HAVE to explain why it's being used... This is a LightWave forum you know!!! Go back to your blender or Modo forum if there's nothing productive or positive coming from being here.

gar26lw
05-16-2019, 01:45 AM
Exactly. Complexity comes at a price. LW is faster and less clicky than Modo, Max and Blender...at least with LW Cad, 3rd Powers suite and TrueArt tools like EasySplit. LW 2019 let's you model with nothing but hotkeys and fast, fluid Wacom strokes on a beautiful 4k screen or dual screens. It's like creating on an endless canvas with the polygons-like-pixels layers providing "poorman nondestructive" space to work and play and experiment. Modo comes close but not once LW Cad, 3rd Powers and 4k monitors come into play.

The UV tools are sadly outdated and the lack of proceduralism makes Modeler far less flexible but LW developers are aware. We can only hope LW 2020 at long last modernizes Modeler. LW team is no doubt hard at work on something!

In short, I still love Modeling in Lightwave but it would be foolish not to use or at least evaluate other tools. Lightwave can be used alongside other packages relatively seamlessly thanks to Origami Digital.

you guys have pretty much summed up what I would have written.

gar26lw
05-16-2019, 02:02 AM
Standard Copy/paste between layers and dead simple scratch layers make working in modeler more like working in illustrator or photoshop than typical 3D apps which for some people, myself included, feels very fast and FEELING fast is important. Is it objectively faster than blender or other apps with the standard scene vs object mode paradigm? Probably not (although it probably isn’t really a whole heck of a lot slower either in many cases) and it is hard to make a good argument that it is worth the trade offs lightwave users are forced to make, but to poo poo others appreciation of the advantages of the modeler way of working, and simplicity IS an advantage, is silly.

To put it another way: by all rights, based on features alone, modeler SHOULD have been relegated to the trash heap of history a decade ago and yet it keeps stubbornly trudging along doing things it’s own backwards way. Maybe it’s NOT due to lightwave users ignorance. MAYBE it is due to some qualities that it has that other software doesn’t have. Lightwave users don’t have to justify why they enjoy using modeler any more than an artist has to defend his choice of paintbrush.

Maybe it is a feeling but in this day and age facts don't matter anyway, only feelings :P

the polys as pixels paradigm is hard to beat and I find that you tend to get into a habit of doing things correctly and generally once as you know you have no fallback :)

OD copy paste is invaluable to leverage other integrated apps such as modo though. Wouldn't be the same without it.

TheLexx
05-16-2019, 02:42 AM
OD copy paste is invaluable to leverage other integrated apps such as modo though. Wouldn't be the same without it.Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?

JohnMarchant
05-16-2019, 02:49 AM
The biggest problem for me with modeler is the destructive nature of bevels and boolean operations. Yes some tools need tightening up, many can be combined and a few other things and i hope we see that in the next few years. Modeler does need a lot of love now but it is still capable. All this talk of 3rd party plugins is really pointless, some of the big guns still rely on third party. How many different fire, smoke, water and particle addons are there for Max or indeed Maya, does this imply that these apps are crap or dont have them built in. What about renderers, loads of them out there but it does not mean that the native one is rubbish.

Ztreem
05-16-2019, 03:53 AM
Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?

Some examples from my own experience. (Not Modo but Blender)

In one project I needed to do a boolean trough a quite heavy mesh. I did it in modeler and it took modeler about 40 minutes to compute the boolean and the result was not satisfying. I did the same operation in Blender and it took only a few seconds to compute and the result was exactly what I was expecting. So in this case modeler was not a good choice.

In another project I needed to animate some numbers changing according to the movement of another object. I did not even consider LW for that as it has no dynamic text tool. Did it in Blender very easy to setup.

Another time I needed to get a line drawing in vector format from a 3D model in perspective view. Rendered out high res line renders from Lw and tried to convert it to vector images in Illustrator but it looked like crap or took too much time. Once again I went to Blender as it could export edge renders as svg and it worked out very nicely and fast.

This does not mean that there are situations when Lw isn't good enough or fast enough.

My own feelings after a year in Blender is that I don't only work faster, I also feel that I work with less frustration and less workarounds. It feels like the program is actually working with me and not against me. Most things in Blender is interactive & non-destructive while in LW its the opposite. But the best thing with Blender is that they don't develop with radio silence like NT. :)

lardbros
05-16-2019, 04:45 AM
The biggest problem for me with modeler is the destructive nature of bevels and boolean operations. Yes some tools need tightening up, many can be combined and a few other things and i hope we see that in the next few years. Modeler does need a lot of love now but it is still capable. All this talk of 3rd party plugins is really pointless, some of the big guns still rely on third party. How many different fire, smoke, water and particle addons are there for Max or indeed Maya, does this imply that these apps are crap or dont have them built in. What about renderers, loads of them out there but it does not mean that the native one is rubbish.

A modifier stack for modelling would be awesome, don't get me wrong. The tricky thing is though, I use 3ds max and rarely ever need the modifier stack. Not saying it's not useful, but I tend to collapse stuff down to a polymesh anyway, once my bits and bobs have been done.

For things like Booleans though, and animated Booleans or non-destructive rounding etc. lathes or thickens, rails extrudes and mirroring... it would be very VERY handy.

lardbros
05-16-2019, 04:47 AM
Most things in Blender is interactive & non-destructive while in LW its the opposite. But the best thing with Blender is that they don't develop with radio silence like NT. :)

Yeah, this is a biggie.

As more and more developers are involving their communities, as they rely on them a fair bit... LightWave's development being so distant just alienates users.
There's less 'buy-in' from users as they feel they lack any control in the direction LW is moving in... this is definitely bad for business, especially in this day and age of instant gratification and updates.

hypersuperduper
05-16-2019, 05:05 AM
The radio silence thing is definitely the biggest problem, and very much on topic!

TheLexx
05-16-2019, 06:18 AM
So one question is what are the other softwares doing so special that LW is not, and I think there is more to it than just roadmaps. I know I keep mentioning from time to time, but comprehensive condensed LW end-to-end training on the LW website would be good, because for the other software this definitely has the effect of advertising the software.

Maya, Max and ZBrush are "industry standard" so can stand on that. Blender has Blender Cookie, CG Masters, Blender Cloud and guys like Darrin Lile on Udemy and Lynda. Modo has resources designed so an architect, product modeller, photographer or film-maker can kinda see what they're getting into at a glance, plus William's output which is quite remarkable. In other words, if someone doesn't care what these might or might not do in the future, they could drift into them now because these courses are all targeted advertising and enticements.

For LW, the net seems too far and wide, giving an overall dilute effect, and more than once I find a road leading back to William's old vids before he left the software. As a result LW comes over like it is preaching to those who were already converted, but surely the keyphrase should be "new users". One ""advantage of LW :D"" is a certain perception of KISS principles, and maybe advertising should play to that. Just my own rambling thoughts at this time.

@ Ztreem, Many thanks to you for those examples. :)

Ztreem
05-16-2019, 07:57 AM
There was a time when NT actually did an open beta and the community could influence the development. I think it was the best time with LightWave, it was really good and the community came closer together than ever and even did a film for showing off the new features. Unfortunately they stopped the open beta for the next version, a big mistake if you ask me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m8BxhpE_Yw

hrgiger
05-16-2019, 08:08 AM
Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).




William left largely because of CORE. As a lot of users did. Then William found Modo and fell in love with it. It suits his way of working better as I imagine LW suits the way people who have stuck with LW. He also works for New Balance shoes where they use Modo in house.

As far as why someone might use Modo over LW...

Have you seen the UV tools? They're night and day between Modeler and Modo.
Modo uses a work plane which makes modeling things easier. Create and edit your geometry on any surface and the tool handles align themselves to that surface or plane. Which also means you can work in a single perspective view easily without the need for a quad viewport which is a waste of screen real estate.
The tool pipe consists of a system of action centers and falloffs that are used across the app, they're not limited to a single tool. So you can use the same falloff to add weight maps, create washouts with edge weighting, use gradients to further modify falloff behavior,soft selections... You can even combine multiple falloffs.
With Modo's procedural system, almost any modeling operation is animatable.
Mesh Fusion is SubD Booleans like meta mesh for LightWave except that its procedural and a native tool. Which means you can change your booelans at any time, even if you've saved the model and closed the file. You also have complete control over every mesh intersection at any time. You can adjust the density of the mesh at any time as well. It will create UV's, use Catmull Clark edge weighting and allow for multiple types of Booleans to be stacked like subtractions, additions as well as intersections, all in the same mesh.
Modo fully supports edges and its catmull Clark SubDs aren't broken.
The majority of Modo's tools are interactive.
You can set your mesh layer visibility to any draw type and have multiple draw types in the viewport.
It has an item mode which has multiple advantages including fast translation of heavier polygon mesh layers, grouping of items,scene visibility, shading, parenting, and scene organization.
Symmetry works on all 3 axis.
Native retopology.
Modeling instances so you can create arrays, mirrors or copies of a mesh item and all the instances reflect the base object as you model.
Very good snapping system.
It has had smoothing groups for years. But also has vertex normal tools.
Mesh paint (as in paint copies of an object or instances onto other surfaces)
Everything is drag and drop in Modo. Drag models, materials, images, etc.. from the preset browser or from external sources. Drag items on top of other items to parent, or match another items scale, location or rotation, drag one mesh fusion item on top of another to perform Boolean operations.
Selection sets for quick access to assignments of points, polys, or edges.
There are plenty of other reasons as well, but those are just modeling related. There's numerous other benefits in other areas that assist while your modeling since Modo is a unified application, like preview rendering your model, using dynamics for placing items, using its deformer system for shaping items, already mentioned animation of modeling operations through its procedural modeling tools. Of course this is all because Modo has improved its modeling system with every release since its inception. Modeler has largely skipped updating modeler.

robertoortiz
05-16-2019, 08:45 AM
William left largely because of CORE. As a lot of users did. Then William found Modo and fell in love with it. It suits his way of working better as I imagine LW suits the way people who have stuck with LW. He also works for New Balance shoes where they use Modo in house.

.
And we go back to CORE. and to be frank a big part of the problem was management.
An open Beta type of development requires a management structure that has strong intestinal fortitude.
Established power User will fight kicking and screaming about needed significant changes.
Even if it means a death grip on the steering wheel of a car going a cliff. So management took the short term approach and decided to hear the loudest users only to sacrifice its future. The irony is that a lot of those same power users left/ retired or have died..

..and that is only for Core.
Newtek is not alone in this respect, Autodesk is going to oblivion in a hand basket with its 3d graphics tools because of the same problem.

HAVING SAID THAT the current rewrite is another story (Note: keep it up, your work is really appreciated).

hypersuperduper
05-16-2019, 08:50 AM
So one question is what are the other softwares doing so special that LW is not, and I think there is more to it than just roadmaps. I know I keep mentioning from time to time, but comprehensive condensed LW end-to-end training on the LW website would be good, because for the other software this definitely has the effect of advertising the software.

Maya, Max and ZBrush are "industry standard" so can stand on that. Blender has Blender Cookie, CG Masters, Blender Cloud and guys like Darrin Lile on Udemy and Lynda. Modo has resources designed so an architect, product modeller, photographer or film-maker can kinda see what they're getting into at a glance, plus William's output which is quite remarkable. In other words, if someone doesn't care what these might or might not do in the future, they could drift into them now because these courses are all targeted advertising and enticements.

For LW, the net seems too far and wide, giving an overall dilute effect, and more than once I find a road leading back to William's old vids before he left the software. As a result LW comes over like it is preaching to those who were already converted, but surely the keyphrase should be "new users". One ""advantage of LW :D"" is a certain perception of KISS principles, and maybe advertising should play to that. Just my own rambling thoughts at this time.

@ Ztreem, Many thanks to you for those examples. :)

I think Newtek/Vizrt should reach out to people doing interesting things in lightwave and help to share their work (and solicit their input). The old newsletter was actually quite decent up until 2017 with studio spotlights and cool stuff, now its just news and plugins. There is great work still being done, but the effect is pretty diluted because there doesn't appear to be any real attempt to aggregate it, and the community is not really strong enough to do it itself. Newtek must be involved. It is really hard to find good examples of cool work being done with lightwave and up to date high quality tutorials, often you just wind up finding ancient stuff. Newtek/Vizrt should be reaching out to people doing top tier work like David Ridlin and guys making cool tutorials like Mark Warner and doing whatever they can to spread the their work. It sure seems like people are eager to share. Every couple years some new guys start showing off cool stuff in lightwave and then just give up. Some of them probably move on to other software. but I bet a lot simply stop sharing because of the sense that nobody cares. All the cool stuff just gets dumped into this forum or on facebook or somewhere else like the deep dark depths of Youtube, and eventually gets covered over with garbage never to be seen again. Newtek should be using the blog or social media or some other channel to engage with the people who are actually doing stuff with lightwave, and get them involved, and aggregate their work.

Personally I feel that the latest versions of lightwave have been making really great strides in terms of technical improvements (more is needed of course) but the Outreach is just not there like it should be.

gar26lw
05-16-2019, 08:51 AM
Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?

i use modo in situations where i want instancing, cloning or deformations. sculpting as well but i find 3rd powers is generally good enough for most situations. i also prefer modo for uv’s but use 3dcoat on occasion. still use plg a fair bit as it’s pretty quick for most things, just when you want good relaxation, better packing or quad straightening then modo is better. i also use modo for still renders, baking and some io of troublesome fbx’s, oh and gltf.

i use max for text, parametric tools, curves, cad model conversion, character skinning and rigging and some other hard surface stuff. i also use it for animation take export to unity and rendering with vray.

i still prefer lightwave for most stuff, unity and unreal export, hard surface, stl and ply io, point cloud to mesh conversion in conjunction with meshlab, anything where i want to match cameras, general rendering and previz. need lwcad, pictrix, nitsara and odtools plus a whole bunch of other ones as it would it be unusable without them.

i’m not really a one 3d app guy, i like using the tools and will bounce between packages depending on what does what faster and easier in the course of a project. lightwave being the hub, i think it’s the immediacy that i like as others mentioned.

i also use maya for stuff similar to max.

gar26lw
05-16-2019, 09:04 AM
I think Newtek/Vizrt should reach out to people doing interesting things in lightwave and help to share their work (and solicit their input). The old newsletter was actually quite decent up until 2017 with studio spotlights and cool stuff, now its just news and plugins. There is great work still being done, but the effect is pretty diluted because there doesn't appear to be any real attempt to aggregate it, and the community is not really strong enough to do it itself. Newtek must be involved. It is really hard to find good examples of cool work being done with lightwave and up to date high quality tutorials, often you just wind up finding ancient stuff. Newtek/Vizrt should be reaching out to people doing top tier work like David Ridlin and guys making cool tutorials like Mark Warner and doing whatever they can to spread the their work. It sure seems like people are eager to share. Every couple years some new guys start showing off cool stuff in lightwave and then just give up. Some of them probably move on to other software. but I bet a lot simply stop sharing because of the sense that nobody cares. All the cool stuff just gets dumped into this forum or on facebook or somewhere else like the deep dark depths of Youtube, and eventually gets covered over with garbage never to be seen again. Newtek should be using the blog or social media or some other channel to engage with the people who are actually doing stuff with lightwave, and get them involved, and aggregate their work.

Personally I feel that the latest versions of lightwave have been making really great strides in terms of technical improvements (more is needed of course) but the Outreach is just not there like it should be.

facebook group makes all the cool info disappear into a black hole, would be better on here.

the lack of great evangelists and cool wip work is a bit of a problem as is the lack of good tutorials. i wish there was some masterclass stuff on various aspects of the software.
would be good for newtek to find all the old training that’s dead and put it in their site like they did with the plugins.

the newsletter and articles were great, shame that’s died off.

erikals
05-16-2019, 10:39 AM
And we go back to CORE. and to be frank a big part of the problem was management.
An open Beta type of development requires a management structure that has strong intestinal fortitude.
Established power User will fight kicking and screaming about needed significant changes.
Even if it means a death grip on the steering wheel of a car going a cliff. So management took the short term approach and decided to hear the loudest users only to sacrifice its future. The irony is that a lot of those same power users left/ retired or have died..

..and that is only for Core.
Newtek is not alone in this respect, Autodesk is going to oblivion in a hand basket with its 3d graphics tools because of the same problem.

HAVING SAID THAT the current rewrite is another story (Note: keep it up, your work is really appreciated).

sorry, but this is completely wrong.

CORE was cancelled because the programmers aimed too high, and the underlying code ended up being a mess.

right must be right, so just had to correct you on this one.

...so, where did i get that info? from the programmers themselves.

they did try saving CORE, unfortunately it was just not possible.


facebook group makes all the cool info disappear into a black hole, would be better on here.
Jepzi!

SBowie
05-16-2019, 10:52 AM
Cool, now we're back to the Core Wars. Having traversed "Why I prefer Modo/Blender/Other", all we need a some Nazi references and a couple of car analogies and this thread will be complete.

Having endured all of this meandering, I wish I had time to consider why the plea below is in any way incorrect. At first blush it's hard to fault, setting aside the somewhat understandable overuse of exclamation points.


Not sure why some of you guys still even come here. All you literally do is turn every thread into one where LightWave users HAVE to explain why it's being used... This is a LightWave forum you know!!! Go back to your blender or Modo forum if there's nothing productive or positive coming from being here.

The usual answer runs along the lines of "Even though I don't use LW much anymore, I still come here in vain hopes of improvement in this or that respect" ... but that's wearing a little thin after all of these years, and perhaps requires a little suspension of disbelief on the part of the rest of us that is getting harder to grant.

erikals
05-16-2019, 11:04 AM
Cool, now we're back to the Core Wars.
i couldn't let old (dead or alive) LightWave users take blame for something that wasn't their fault. that just wasn't fair. thereby #192


Not sure why some of you guys still even come here.
because someone is wrong on the internet.

i'll probably post more LightWave vs Blender videos on my Youtube channel in the near future,
hopefully that will clutter the NewTek forum slightly less, and the Moderator can get to relax a bit.

SBowie
05-16-2019, 11:13 AM
i couldn't let old (dead or alive) LightWave users take blame for something that wasn't their fault. that just wasn't fair. thereby #192Whereas I think there was blame enough to go around for all.

This subject is arguably one of the most contentious of my career, and to this day entails every last person I talk to having a unique perspective and 'blame hierarchy'. I tend to fall into the 'I wish we hadn't blinked' camp, but even with that said there are far, far too many strands involved to really ever get to the bottom of it. Two things I'm 100% certain of is that this is extremely subjective, and - having been beaten to death for years - wearisome.

So there was this Nazi tooling down the highway, and he stops at a bar where he meets a preacher, a politician and a three-legged dog ...

erikals
05-16-2019, 11:31 AM
i wouldn't mind if you deleted those posts, totally fine, even though i got the info from a NewTek employee.

So there was this Nazi tooling down the highway, and he stops at a bar where he meets a preacher, a politician and a three-legged dog ... Here they meet Erik Alstad and Steve White. Erik and White are discussing the end of the world, then, the Sheriff enters the bar... Erik asks, why the Nazi, isnt that a bit overboard? A cold silence fills the room.

hypersuperduper
05-16-2019, 11:39 AM
Sooo what happened to the three-legged dog?

SBowie
05-16-2019, 11:45 AM
Leave Sparky out of this, he didn't do anything to anyone.

SBowie
05-16-2019, 11:46 AM
i wouldn't mind if you deleted those posts, totally fine, even though i got the info from a NewTek employee.Nah, I understand. It's just that I have talked to many of them, and management too, and I don't think I've ever heard the same perspective twice.

Nicolas Jordan
05-16-2019, 12:13 PM
I had high hopes for Core myself in the beginning and it showed some promise but it soon became very apparent after a while that it was going to take way too long and may not have ever been as good as most of us were hoping for in the end.

TheLexx
05-16-2019, 12:51 PM
So there was this Nazi tooling down the highway, and he stops at a bar where he meets a preacher, a politician and a three-legged dog ... Here they meet Erik Alstad and Steve White. Erik and White is discussing the end of the world, then, the Sheriff enters the bar... Erik asks, why the Nazi, isnt that a bit overboard? A cold silence fills the room.

I thought it went:-

Preacher to Nazi - "There is but only one God".
Politician to Nazi - "Nice suit and you got some really great ideas I could copy"
Dog to Nazi - "Did you come to return my leg or take another one ?"

Nazi to three - "No, I'm just a rep from Vizrt off to a company meeting to discuss some software, now what was it called again... ?" :devil:

erikals
05-16-2019, 01:44 PM
Dog to Nazi - "Did you come to return my leg or take another one ?"
i liked that one.  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif

RebelHill
05-16-2019, 02:03 PM
Cool, now we're back to the Core Wars.

You could just pinch Twitter's policy on deadnaming.

robertoortiz
05-16-2019, 02:40 PM
So there was this Nazi tooling down the highway, and he stops at a bar where he meets a preacher, a politician and a three-legged dog ...

add to that, therei s the little fact that the preacher he loved the last episode of Game of Thrones and wont shut up about it.

gar26lw
05-16-2019, 03:31 PM
because someone is wrong on the internet.



lol! excellent :)

Chuck
05-17-2019, 11:52 AM
That's true. Not to speak for Chuck, but I'm swamped with other things, and - while monitoring this thread - have simply been inclined to let it meander naturally as those involved weary of one aspect or another in turn.

Been reading it, and considering things, interspersed among other tasks, including getting new entries into each of our blogs.

prometheus
05-19-2019, 11:12 AM
You can still render in cycles if you need higher quality and use gpu’s to render quicker than LW. So I don’t see why turbulence is so much better? Is it even still developed?

Bumping back...though these specific post may belong on third party threads..

Erikals mentioned ...

"Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post


sorry, i used the wrong word there, photo-real was the word.
so no, Turbulence beats Blender in that regard.

though sure, it can (and should) be used in several other situations.
You can still render in cycles if you need higher quality and use gpu’s to render quicker than LW. So I don’t see why turbulence is so much better? Is it even still developed?"

Erikals... you seem to think TurbulenceFD is more photo real and beats blender fluids, How is that? When you consider that blender has PBR volumetrics, turbulence doesn´t, as for quality..Yes I know it is hard to get good quality initially,
There is often a stepping and banding issue with blender, and that is mostly related to the RENDERTAB/VOLUME SAMPLING, It kind of needs a very low step size..Usually I render in cycles With the GPU preview with maybe 0.4-1 in step size, and I start of with 100 divisions and no high res activated..to get a fast preview of the simulation, it it looks decent I just activate the high res option and let it run it´s course.
I do this just to tweak the main shading look, this means a bit of a banding..but quite fast previews, If I were to lower below..0.1 Then Cuda would probably fail and I would have to close blender and re-boot to get going again with the GPU render.
This might need to render with CPU in order to lower step size so low that the quality is good enough...other than that, I do not see how turbulenceFD would be more photorealistic? Turbulence don´t have these banding issues really, which I believe is due to it not being a Proper PBR volume model..it doesn´t need step sizing in quality.

erikals
05-19-2019, 11:32 AM
Erikals... you seem to think TurbulenceFD is more photo real and beats blender fluids, How is that?
no, you got it wrong, i replied to Blender smoke + Eevee. where Eevee doesn't render photo-real animation. (imho)


so, to conclude, i wrote Turbulence was faster to render, but i could be wrong, especially considering the new LW2018 render engine.

prometheus
05-19-2019, 11:42 AM
no, you got it wrong, i replied to Blender smoke + Eevee. where Eevee doesn't render photo-real animation. (imho)


so, to conclude, i wrote Turbulence was faster to render, but i could be wrong, especially considering the new LW2018 render engine.

Ahh..I thought You ment blender cycles fire and smoke.
But anyway...Blender cycles is way faster with GPU rendering than turbulenceFD with illuminated smoke and fire, and especially tiresome is the multiscattering in TFD which recalculates quite a while, in blender you just set your desiried amount of volume bounces..and it doesn´t do recalculations anywhere near that TFD time, so it´s much faster.

If you compare blender cycles CPU VS Lightwave turbulenceFD it may be eual in time...but I don´t thing the 2018 engine does nothing for speeding up TFD..since you have to choose legacy volumetrics.

I am not sure there is any difference in renderspeed in lw 2018 for TFD VS 2015, but anyway I do not think it was faster to render than blender really, but it´s two different volumetrics, one is a more realistic model the other isn´t, and if you activate illuminated volumetrics in tfd, it becomes quite slow...and even slower with multiscattering.

raymondtrace
05-19-2019, 08:02 PM
...TFD..since you have to choose legacy volumetrics.

TFD can output VDB. There's a command line converter bundled with TFD.

Marander
05-19-2019, 11:31 PM
TFD can output VDB. There's a command line converter bundled with TFD.

It cannot output VDB but requires a cache command line conversion tool (bcf2vdb), not the best workflow imho and it doesn't work in all cases. However I think Prometheus meant is that you have to switch to legacy volumetrics in order to render TFD natively in LW2018+.

I'm not using TFD much these days. It's very unstable / non-working in LW and my Jawset support tickets were never looked at since several years. Still a good plugin (in Cinema) for simple fluid stuff but limited in its use compared to others.

I'm currently rendering a shockwave (created in X-Particles / ExplosiaFX, cache in VDB format) in LW 2019 but it's incredible slow to render. I maybe finish rendering it but eventually change to another engine since I made some modifications in the sim in the meantime.

Volumetrics render speed for me is in this order: Redshift (GPU), Cycles (4D, GPU), TFD (4D), LW2019 volumetrics.

LW volumes look nice and VDB import works fine but unfortunately it's so slow to render and viewport performance is very bad displaying the volume grid.

prometheus
05-20-2019, 12:42 AM
TFD can output VDB. There's a command line converter bundled with TFD.

yes I Know that...to me that isnt an acceptable workflow..takes too much time...and you have to go through that converting and reload process for every change in the simulatiion.

right now I am focusing on blender fire and smoke
..I need a bit more learnimg on that though.

OFF
05-20-2019, 12:47 AM
LW volumes look nice and VDB import works fine but unfortunately it's so slow to render and viewport performance is very bad displaying the volume grid.
Absolutely agree.

chikega
05-24-2019, 11:56 AM
This is true


https://youtu.be/TXGxOsfQcwk

SBowie
05-24-2019, 12:03 PM
Well, ok. That's probably enough.