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gdkeast
04-04-2019, 03:38 AM
LightWave was the first 3D program I was introduced to and over the past years, I have committed myself to learning it. I'm completely self-taught and independent and only want to create basic animations, effects, and perhaps a short film or two. And the more I learn, the more ignorant I feel!

Of course, when making a commitment to learning something like 3D, the issue comes up if I've got the right program and is the program going to stay in development or be phased out.

And to be honest, for a time, I wasn't sure what direction LW was heading, but didn't care because I was still making rotating 3D boxes with sparkles. And of course, I saw defections from the program and the what killed LW video on You Tube.

To be fair, I tried other programs, including the free one, and honestly, having gone so far into LightWave, I didn't like any of them. And then LW 2018 happened and then 2019, and all of the sudden, I felt like there was a LightWave renaissance happening and felt reassured that I could stay with LW despite everything that seemed to be happening.

Something that really bothers me now (and I want to get it off my chest) is former LW users who insist on being negative about LW. For me, it is one thing to be unhappy about something and then move on to something else, but it is something else to just keep harping about the program you left.

I like LW. I like the direction LW is going. And I am committed to learning LW. And I honestly get tired of hearing destructive criticism.

Clearly with its track record of productions, it is a more than capable program. I mean, for Pete sake's, David Ridlen's LW work was just in the Academy Award winning film, Green Book. But still for some, that's not enough and will never be enough. So what I'm saying is if you don't like LW, that's okay---move on and no one needs to hear about it. Stop the hate and just create.

I'm convinced that if we all support each other as LW users and keep creating ourselves, LW will survive and thrive.

I feel better now.

OFF
04-04-2019, 04:14 AM
I have not met a lot of negative reviews of those who no longer use the LW. Perhaps you confuse criticism of one or other of the shortcomings of the LW with hate? And you think that those who criticize something in LW are always those who hate (in fact, hatred of this kind is a clinical mental disorder, so I don’t think that you will see many such examples in objective reality) because went to other programs?
Criticism and hatred (or the habit of criticizing for the sake of criticism, but not for the sake of change for the better) is not the same thing. Constructive criticism of objective shortcomings allows us to develop in the right direction.

Marander
04-04-2019, 06:01 AM
I have not met a lot of negative reviews of those who no longer use the LW. Perhaps you confuse criticism of one or other of the shortcomings of the LW with hate? And you think that those who criticize something in LW are always those who hate (in fact, hatred of this kind is a clinical mental disorder, so I don’t think that you will see many such examples in objective reality) because went to other programs?
Criticism and hatred (or the habit of criticizing for the sake of criticism, but not for the sake of change for the better) is not the same thing. Constructive criticism of objective shortcomings allows us to develop in the right direction.

OFF: Very good post!

gdkeast, I criticize a lot about LW but by no means hate it, otherwise I wouldn't have updated to 2015 / 2018 / 2019 and bought many additional plugins for it.

LightWave was the first 3D application I purchased and started diving deeper into. LW allows a lot of experimentation which I like.

As you mentioned it's capable of great results. But maybe you should also have read from Mr Rid how tedious it is to work with LW sometimes.

"...obsessive compulsion persisting over long nights of hair-pulling frustration."
"Unfortunately, development floundered for way too long in the past."
"...where I seriously think I am the only person still using LW, but on lower budget shows."

https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153914-Lightwave-demo-reel-David-Ridlen&p=1509760&highlight=#post1509760

When I purchased and started using other 3D apps and render engines I realized LWs shortcomings - they become more obvious once you get to know other 3D applications more in-depth - and therefore state my opinion in the forum but mention and praise the improvements in the last two versions too. Actually my biggest criticism is about the lack of UI improvements or unification or non-destructive tools over so many years. And: To write criticism in the forum doesn't mean one is not creating!

Don't let the criticism and comparison with other apps spoil your LightWave experience, if it works fine for you in all areas!

Cheers

lardbros
04-04-2019, 06:31 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with the original poster.

Too many ex-lightwave users, or frustrated people, come to the forums and vent or troll. In fact, if you put all that anger/disappointment into something creative, you will make nice art no matter what application you use!

There are problems with every application, even Substance Painter has its weird workflows and irritating foibles, but LightWave is still more than capable of generating beautiful renders and is just an artist's tool at the end of the day (as has been said many times).

Some of the negative comments are possibly because people look at or perceive the development of other applications as being better/faster/less buggy... and they feel like their LightWave corner is degrading and becoming less useful in production. Of course, the grass is ALWAYS greener but if you actually step over to another application and use it for some time, you'll quickly see that it's not quite as good as all the marketing might make out.
Look at the latest 3ds Max 2020 update for instance... it's pretty darned poor, yet still I have to upgrade as it's an integral part of our pipeline. People will moan about it, and some will vote with their feet, but ultimately you can still create great looking renders and models using 3ds Max, like you can with LightWave, or Modo, or Maya. It's just the latest updates of 3ds Max are disappointing. Do you think that will make large studios move to another app? I doubt it. Will IKEA cancel their 500 licenses of 3ds Max? Nope.

I still love using LightWave and the updates added to 2019 were (yes, needed for years... but at least we got them in the end!). Smoothing groups are indispensable, I use UE4 a lot!!!
If LightWave is actually stopping you achieving what you set out to create, then try something else, but a lot of hobbyists and lower-end LightWave users are more frustrated at the fact that LightWave doesn't have what the competition has, not because they actually want or need to use it on a project, but just because other apps have it.

OFF
04-04-2019, 06:49 AM
Strictly speaking, I can only remember only one hater - Lino Grandi. Which did a lot for PR LW Next, but immediately after leaving the company, he began to write that LW is a dead product. At the very least, this is extremely unethical - you knew that LW has problems and did everything so that many would buy this product. And then "opened the eyes" to these people for the "truth."
Others want only improvements in the production process in the LW environment.

TheLexx
04-04-2019, 07:17 AM
@ OFF, I understand your general point but:-

1) One should perhaps be a little hesitant mentioning specific names.
2) People are entitled to change their minds at any time.

Much as I'd love to be a fly-on-the-wall at times. ;)

OFF
04-04-2019, 07:36 AM
I agree, but hating from this level is an order of magnitude more harmful than that of any ordinary user. That's why I called his name - as, perhaps, the only example of real wrecking. Everything else is nothing more than "child trolling".

SBowie
04-04-2019, 08:01 AM
Interesting thread. I'd like to add a couple of remarks, if I may.

I heartily agree (and in this I will speak for NewTek) with OFF's notion that "Constructive criticism of objective shortcomings allows us to develop in the right direction." Honest criticism, whether of an application, business or sales practices, communication (or lack of same), or really any related matter is a thing to value.

I'm not even sure the word 'hater' is really valid; like most things on the Internet, it's usually a wild exaggeration. Yes, occasionally you encounter someone who you suspect is frothing at the mouth while typing. These guys usually get booted eventually after all attempts to get them to take a breath fail. Still, this is a community largely comprised of people who combine artistic talent and technical skills. Neither of those groups is famous for patience or diplomacy. So I think very often a rude remark reflects a certain passion or, at times, frustration. (I'm not excusing incivility, just saying that it's not a simple case of 'love' versus 'hate'). And speaking as moderator, I try to make plenty of allowance for that.

Imnsho, there are a few ways things tend to off the rails. The first and most obvious is when someone makes things about personalities, rather than sticking to the the issues. There are lots of ways this can happen, and I won't detail them all here. But just to point it out, calling out Lino here is an example. He's not here to defend himself, and regardless of the validity or lack of same of the comment, we won't be discussing him. If you want to debate some view he has expressed, fine - but personal criticism is not permitted.

Another thing that can happen is when someone develops such a negative view that virtually every comment they post is critical. Often, their posts become just a steady drip of acid criticism. Rather than contributing anything to the benefit of those who come here for tips, techniques and cameraderie, these become like the guy sitting at the end of the bar moaning endlessly about his wife to anyone who happens to be in earshot. Such ones will seldom let an opportunity for a shot pass without chiming in. I wouldn't call these haters either ... maybe 'serial snipers'.

Then there are the real 'trolls' - guys whose sole motivation for participating is to to stir up contention. While the 'snipers' may mainly be motivated by real irritation with specific aspects of the product, or what have you, the trolls just seem to think they are superior to everyone else, and love putting people down. I suspect they behave the same way in every group they join, quite irrespective of LW. (This group overlaps the first one I mentioned; I haven't really done DNA tests to see if these are distinct species).

Anyway, to sum up, we don't mind criticism. A mature and professional person with reasonably balance mental health is perfectly capable of expressing it without spitting on others. That's what we're going for here.

hypersuperduper
04-04-2019, 08:45 AM
I think if you want more creative positive stuff on the forum that is a good reason to start sharing cool stuff. Otherwise most threads will be about problems and issues instead, because that’s how people hope to get them addressed Either by the community or the devs. happy contented users aren’t going to waste time posting to tell people that the product is working as intended. Personally, I feel that the tone in the forum is pretty ok right now, for the most part trolling and chronic negativity is kept in check.

prometheus
04-04-2019, 10:36 AM
If LightWave is actually stopping you achieving what you set out to create, then try something else, but a lot of hobbyists and lower-end LightWave users are more frustrated at the fact that LightWave doesn't have what the competition has, not because they actually want or need to use it on a project, but just because other apps have it.


This makes no sense to me...

Your argument i that the low end and hobbyist user just complain for the sake of complaining, and that is their agenda only..and that they have no use for what they ask for? but their agenda is to whine only..for some reason?
You assume this based on that is what they have told you? or is it your own speculative conclusions on how they think? and you also refer to " A lot of hobbyists and lower-end LightWave users"

Even if they do not have a project, they may still want it because they have Ideas in their head, which you can not possibly know unless you have talked to these users and confirmed that what you are stating is in fact the case.
Their visions and urge for having a feature.. may be inspired by what features the other software has, I certainly have had those moments...though I may not have at that particular time a project or use for it right there and then.

Maybe there is some folks that is so dissapointed that they continue to whine over here, but who´m is to say what is true in that regards.
Making such conclusions would require extensive logging and tracking of those users and what they actually have said, to ensure that they are trolls or not trolls...at least if you judge a whole lot of them.

SBowie
04-04-2019, 10:45 AM
Personally, I feel that the tone in the forum is pretty ok right now, for the most part trolling and chronic negativity is kept in check.And I would agree with that. It's unfortunate it took drastic measures in a few cases to achieve that, but I think things have been pretty convivial in 2019.

Nicolas Jordan
04-04-2019, 11:27 AM
I agree, I have been using Lightwave since 1999 and since 2007 professionally. It has been the key to helping me make a living doing what i enjoy. I have tried some other 3d software and put out good work with them as well but I always come back to Lightwave because it just seems to work the way I think and is still much faster to get Arch Viz work done in than other programs I have used. It really depends on the type of work you do and your needs but for me it's great!

tischbein3
04-05-2019, 04:12 AM
Sorry but posts like these generate more FUD than any lw sucks post.
What do you think will those "But LW is still important/can do isn't it ?" posts affect readers comming from other software / newbies ?

A simple "LW sucks" post is an opinion and can seen as one. But this pessimistic ******** does imply a common understanding that
lw is not en par with the others. And it will set the course for further posts down the line. Its imho more toxic than a "lw sucks because...".

Heres my "ultimate truth" I aquired over the years:
Use the software you have the most fun of it. If you got fun, you are willing to invest more time and energy in the output,
wich leads to better artwork. If you constantly have to fight your software you won't get the output you want.
All other ******** (like "industry standard" or what others says) is secondary.

lardbros
04-05-2019, 05:58 AM
This makes no sense to me...

Your argument i that the low end and hobbyist user just complain for the sake of complaining, and that is their agenda only..and that they have no use for what they ask for? but their agenda is to whine only..for some reason?
You assume this based on that is what they have told you? or is it your own speculative conclusions on how they think? and you also refer to " A lot of hobbyists and lower-end LightWave users"

Even if they do not have a project, they may still want it because they have Ideas in their head, which you can not possibly know unless you have talked to these users and confirmed that what you are stating is in fact the case.
Their visions and urge for having a feature.. may be inspired by what features the other software has, I certainly have had those moments...though I may not have at that particular time a project or use for it right there and then.


My point is that some forum goers produce nothing or do low quality work, yet moan about features they don't have, or how crap feature (a) is, and how bad the new renderer is. When other users are creating AMAZING work using LW v11. Everyone is guilty of it, and I did this when bullet came out, how many times have I actually used it at work... ONCE. :)

BUT it's just how I used to be when I hobbied in 3d. I moved from Imagine 3d to Extreme 3d to something else I cannot remember to 3ds Max and then to LightWave, chasing the features or major film/tv projects they'd been used in. Not because I needed them for a specific project, but because the competition had them and I wanted them too. I used to moan about not having fluid simulation, or muscle sims, or other high-end features... yet now I very rarely use those features in my day-to-day work.

I was always hunting down the latest and greatest application based on its features... not based on what can be done with it.
Again, I'm not sniping at LightWave users OR hobbyists at all... I was one. I'm just saying that I've noticed some people do awful work (in every 3d community), yet still chase fluid simulation tools, or other features... when actually they could be concentrating on their creative or coding abilities and making better work. (I'm not talking about anyone specific BTW, just a behaviour I've seen time and time again.)

Just trying to share my opinion on the behaviours of trolls in forums.

prometheus
04-05-2019, 02:03 PM
My point is that some forum goers produce nothing or do low quality work, yet moan about features they don't have, or how crap feature (a) is, and how bad the new renderer is. When other users are creating AMAZING work using LW v11. Everyone is guilty of it, and I did this when bullet came out, how many times have I actually used it at work... ONCE. :)

BUT it's just how I used to be when I hobbied in 3d. I moved from Imagine 3d to Extreme 3d to something else I cannot remember to 3ds Max and then to LightWave, chasing the features or major film/tv projects they'd been used in. Not because I needed them for a specific project, but because the competition had them and I wanted them too. I used to moan about not having fluid simulation, or muscle sims, or other high-end features... yet now I very rarely use those features in my day-to-day work.

I was always hunting down the latest and greatest application based on its features... not based on what can be done with it.
Again, I'm not sniping at LightWave users OR hobbyists at all... I was one. I'm just saying that I've noticed some people do awful work (in every 3d community), yet still chase fluid simulation tools, or other features... when actually they could be concentrating on their creative or coding abilities and making better work. (I'm not talking about anyone specific BTW, just a behaviour I've seen time and time again.)

Just trying to share my opinion on the behaviours of trolls in forums.

I think there are those who can produce great work as well and good quality, which have moaned quite a lot as well, I think it is too easy to trap those low quality producing artist in to this category you mention.

Amazing work or not..is not the key factor when it comes to defending any of the sides when determing what Lightwave needs, the key factor is what the feature actually does, such as if the new volumetrics does more realistic clouds for instance, which it does, and had not the user community filed complaints and suggestions to improve it...then nothing would have improved, this is the time where we should complain about fiberfx...quite a lot more and rendering speed, and after some time..we will of course see better speed etc.:D

And everyone complaining about lack of sculpting tools in Lightwave, we now have a crude version for layout that at least may expand on a faster workflow for terrain sculpts and in scene context deformation sculpt, it is still not good enough though, for what such a tool should be capable of technically ..which mostly is different from what actuall artistic result is acheived.

erikals
04-05-2019, 07:36 PM
I think there are those who can produce great work as well and good quality, which have moaned quite a lot as well, I think it is too easy to trap those low quality producing artist in to this category you mention.
Absolutely.

- Mr. Rid (Wind River - Green Book) Misc VFX challenges
- Mike RB (Iron Man) Lack of animation layers
- Lewis (LW Car Modeling Guru) Lack of proper Bevel / Rounding
- Intuition (Battlestar Galactica) Lack of Modeler enhancement
- 3rd Powers (plugin developer) General Complaints
- David Ikeda (LightWave coder until 2014) Lack of Modeler enhancement

these are just some of them.

so for those who didn't give these people attention, lets just put that to rest.
(though i'm sure i'm gonna hear some oh's and but's)


-------------

Constructive criticism is never a bad thing.
and Repeating it is often necessary, especially when lacking a public roadmap.
(however, not saying LightWave should have a public roadmap, that could generate a mess, but it at least needs an internal one / in-house)

tischbein3
04-06-2019, 05:56 AM
I was always hunting down the latest and greatest application based on its features... not based on what can be done with it.

This.

And nowadays for 80% of what 3D is about _every_ 3d application out there can do the job...where they do greatly differ is in workflow,
and this is very subjective.

lino.grandi
04-07-2019, 06:04 AM
Strictly speaking, I can only remember only one hater - Lino Grandi. Which did a lot for PR LW Next, but immediately after leaving the company, he began to write that LW is a dead product. At the very least, this is extremely unethical - you knew that LW has problems and did everything so that many would buy this product. And then "opened the eyes" to these people for the "truth."
Others want only improvements in the production process in the LW environment.

Hi OFF,

I think your comment defining me a LightWave hater (or, even worse, THE one LightWave hater) acting "unethically" deserves a reply, since it basically claims something which is not true.

I've been working for LightWave development for 7 years and I gave all myself to contribute to improve the software I always loved (and still love, even if I'm basically not using it anymore).

My 3D production requirements have evolved in such a way I felt the need to embrace some different software packages; not directly working for the LightWave 3D Group anymore, finally turning the page and somehow abandon the software I've been using for more than 30 years was a possibility, and felt quite natural to me.

In that sense, for me LightWave immediately became the past, and basically a "dead product" to me. I think I wrote this once on Facebook, but it was of course my opinion, not an absolute truth. Sorry if that somehow offended you or other users.

Leaving NewTek has been a direct consequence of a different vision about the future of the product. I could have been right or wrong, but my only interest (as NewTek's one) has always been making LightWave better and do my best to make users happy.

Professionally speaking, I need to believe in what I do and be consistent with what I think, always. Lately that was proved to be difficult to me.

I'm not using the software anymore, that's true (well, I often open it when users ask me for help). But I still love LightWave and enjoy the amazing work LightWave artists from all around the world are producing.

In LightWave 2019 you can find Metamorphic, which is a plugin created by me and Jamil, which somehow made me partecipate, more or less indirectly, to the latest release. You can still take advantage of Genoma and Genoma 2, that I developed. You can also take adavantage of several features I've been directly involved in, and of course enjoy the LightWave content I've been working on. There's still a lot of me in LightWave, even after more than one year I've not been involved in its development anymore.

And for sure I don't ate it, just the opposite.

SBowie
04-07-2019, 06:11 AM
Hi OFF,

I think your comment defining me a LightWave hater (or, even worse, THE one LightWave hater) acting "unethically" deserves a reply...I agree, and am happy that Lino popped in to speak for himself in this case, and especially that he did so in a gracious and professional manner. Sincere thanks for that.

That said and as mentioned before, discussions about personalities are discouraged here, and now that this one is more or less on an even keel, all should understand that further conversation on this particular topic is over.