PDA

View Full Version : Better Drawing tools... and...



LeeK
03-08-2003, 02:17 PM
Coming from a 2D background (Illustrator, Photshop, etc.) I would like to see more refined drawing tools. I still find myself using Illustrator to create shapes to lathe since the controls are so much easier to use.

Also, draggable guides. Sometimes the guides/grid are just not wuite where you want or need them.

As think of more, I'll edit this post ;)

Mylenium
03-09-2003, 06:11 AM
Hi there,

I'm quite confident they will finally give us better spline tools in v8 - everyone has been asking for it quite for a while and they possibly cannot avoid implementing it. As for your guides - that may not be practical. This is kind of a CAD feature that makes not much sense in standard 3D prog (on a rendered image, can you tell minor derivations?) and especially in LW where everything is finally converted to polys. I'd rather see object/ point/ edge snapping so you might greate guide objects whnever you need them.

Mylenium

ModelMonkey
03-10-2003, 06:31 AM
Is not the same thing. I came from a 2d background and itīs a diferent deal when it comes to 3d modeling. 3d have a much more close relationship with sculpture than with drawing.
Even when you have the hardware to simulate real drawing (i have a wacom) itīs still very far from the real thing.
So, you canīt ask for features that are not related to the job.

LeeK
03-10-2003, 07:22 AM
I also have a sculpting background. So I understand the differences in conceptualizing, however depending on WHAT you are modeling more precise and controllable drawing tools would be nice.

For instance there is a big difference between the steps involved in modeling an organic shape (animal, human, flowers, etc.) and an inorganic shape (speakers, a pager, telephone, etc.).

If for example you want to create the shape of a goblet to lathe, I find it much easier to do a shape in Illustrator than to use the current LW tools.

I'd also love to see some built in paint tools a la Deep Paint. Some way to create textures and bumps and other maps from within the program so that they directly relate to the object.

ModelMonkey
03-10-2003, 11:49 AM
Itīs very easy to define shapes in lightwave modeler, really.
Try playing more with subpatches, keeping all in quads, if you need a reference picture, you can put one as a background in lightwave modeler in the view that you like more.

Note:

You can import illustrator files in modeler.

Wade
03-10-2003, 05:01 PM
Better cad type tools would be a major plus to a great program.


We are talking DRAFTING type tools!

Matt
03-11-2003, 02:57 AM
Leek I totally agree with you, better drawing tools are needed.

ModelMonkey - is you use splines, arcs, lines etc. to draw profiles
you'd realise the ones in LW suck compared to say Illustrator.

If you model by using 3D tools (create cube, smooth-shift, bevel etc.) it won't affect you as much.

But we need them, let's have 'em whether everyone uses them or not!

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 06:59 AM
You donīt undestand the point... most lightwave users are making 3d modelling not 2d modelling... if you want to do architectural stuff you use autocad, if you want to make 2d illustration you use illustrator. why are you comparing lightwave to illustrator? What a stupid comparison. i had to make logos for tv, in lightwave 4.0 and i didīt have any trouble creating the profiles from the logos and then extruding etc...now lw have a much more advanced toolset for doing it, i donīt get why you donīt work, play with tools... I guess you are looking for the miracle button that when pressed do the job for you...

LeeK
03-11-2003, 07:52 AM
Ah! so now we've come down to hurling insults.

You like the drawing tools in LW, fine. You've made your point. Now if you are mature enough, try and keep a civil tongue.

There are those of us who use programs like Illustrator or Freehand extensively. Do you? If so perhaps you would not be so quick to put our request down, or criticize. Has Newtek come up with updates and patches that have made your LW experience a bit easier? Tools that have made modeling simpler for you and not as much of a struggle? Or do you consider those "magic buttons" as well.

This forum is for constructive requests, if you are just SO advanced and are so comfortable with LW the way it is, then leave the forum, you obviously don't need it, or us.

JohnL
03-11-2003, 07:55 AM
I guess MonkeyModeller doesn't understand the principle of using 2D profiles as the basis of 3D geometry.

While Illustrator is superior to LW for drawign 2D profiles it is still nothing like using a real sketcher like the ones in ProE, SolidWorks and especially Solid Edge. If you ever get a chance to see a sketcher in action you would be amazed at how easy they are to use. Comparing A real sketcher to the 2D drawing tools in LW is like compared a nailgun to a rock. While you probably could build a house by hammering with a rock, most people would prefer a using a nailgun. The problem is that the few people who prefer rocks and spend all your time with rocks lack the sophistication necessary to understand what a nailgun is, let alone how it could improve their lives.

I vote for improved sketching and 2D tools in LW, BUT not neccesarily like Illustrator. Why trade your rock for a hammer when you can have a nailgun!!

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 09:54 AM
I donīt understand why you keeping comparing illustrator with lightwave modeler, make that request to adobe, make the sugestion to make illustrator go 3d, if you like illustrator so much. Donīt ask for stupid features not related to lightwave modeler (Lightwave imports illustrator, take number 2). Check the lightwave gallery and watch what can be done with the "rock". An artist that is always criticizing is tools must really suck.

I guess JonhL doesnīt understand what is a general 3d application, and an industrial oriented one, and by the way lightwave cost much less than the ones that you posted and do much more. Lightwave needs more useful things, like an integrated 3d paint solution, that is a feature, donīt request things that can be done right now, just because you are lazy, and came from another app.


A real sketcher is a person that grabs a simple pencil and a simple paper, and do amazing things.

JohnL
03-11-2003, 02:23 PM
Let me elaborate.

There is a difference between being productive and just getting things done. Hence, my comparison between the rock and the nailgun. Keep your rock MonkeyModel, and permit me and the rest of us to have a nailgun. No one is forcing you to upgrade to an improved future version of LW.

For me, being productive means getting more things done in a shorter amount of time. It pays the bills.

If improved 2D sketching tools in Modeler help me and others like me to work faster and to produce more accurate 3D models, then I think we have a legitimate request.

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 03:15 PM
Rocks is what houses are made of, a nailgun is for woodboards, maybe you live in a tent, think again about that analogy, and the tools are already there, you arenīt smart enough to push for your brain to use them, lazyness is sick.

And More... Great sculptures are made of rock, yes, rock, that thing that we find a lot, maybe the sculptors are all wrong, is so hard to work with rocks.. But i love David from Michaelangelo.

JohnL
03-11-2003, 04:24 PM
Thats not an analogy, thats just silly.

You're ranting, try to get some rest.

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 05:52 PM
Silly is making analogies with rocks and nailguns, whoīs silly?
This conversation is far from the main theme.

Rory_L
03-11-2003, 06:31 PM
Holy ****! I wish the moderators would moderate! Come on guys, keep it civilised!

JohnL: those drawing apps you mentioned, ProE and so on; how do they work? Do you do a wobbly freehand line with the pen and the application cleans it up for you? I`ve seen something like that over here. It`s being sold as a comics drawing software. Looks nice, but doesn`t come in Mac flavour, or in English!

R

Matt
03-11-2003, 06:56 PM
first, we're not saying make lightwave like a 3d version of illustrator.

second, imagine the extrude tool for a minute. extrude, what does that do,
hmmmm, takes a _2D_ profile and makes it 3D right?

even when you extrude a polygon off a 3D surface it's using the _2D_ profile
to do that.

no model starts out in 3D from the off, the cube tool starts by DRAWING a 2D shape
that is then extruded, SOME people like me and Leek and a WHOLE
lot of others will create 3D models by STARTING with 2D shapes and then using
the 3D tools make those profiles into 3D.

we not so dumb that we need a 'magic button' some of us have been using
2D / 3D for YEARS, we do know a little about what we speak, but you wouldn't know that!

I think you've totally missed our point.

DigiLusionist
03-11-2003, 11:43 PM
Really, where on Earth did some of the posters on these forums come from? Since the new forums opened the level of intelligent discourse has dramatically diminished.

Must be the anonymous poster syndrome, or something...

JohnL and Matt, you're right: it is a simple and legitimate request.

JohnL
03-12-2003, 02:55 AM
ProE and so on; how do they work? Do you do a wobbly freehand line with the pen and the application cleans it up for you?
Rory_L

The answer to your question is both yes and no. While this is a feature in some sketchers it is not the most interesting part of using a sketcher by far.

ProE, SolidWorks and Solid Edge are what is called feature-based solid modelers. Each part of a model's geometry is built up with features that can be edited at any time during the modeling process. To be able to have the ability to use the model's history, you have to make sure that your profiles are constrained properly. Some solid modelers like ProE demand that the profiles are fully constrained. That means that the profile is totally unambiguous. Other modelers like Solid Edge use intelligent "solvers" that allow partially constrained profiles.

Because feature-based solid modelers are so dependent on accurate profiles they have sophisticated tools for assisting in this process. This is where the sketcher comes in.

A sketcher helps you develop relationships (or constraints as they are called) between the different entities of your profile. I.E. the curves, splines and lines are they tangent, equal, perpendicular, parrallel etc.? What diameter, length and angle do they have? During every step in creating a profile you are assisted with visual hints that guide you in placing geometry. Because the sketcher is always guessing what you want to do it also utilizes object snapping in a totally transparent way. It is very intuitive and therefor dead easy to use.

While it would be much easier to understand if you were looking over someones shoulder who is using a sketcher than it is to explain in writing, I hope you get an idea of this useful funtionality.

Rory_L
03-12-2003, 06:09 AM
John,

Such a software sounds really strong. Why do people shout "No!" so loudly when "Convince me!" would be of so much more benefit to everyone?

Some strange people on these boards!

Anyway, thanks for your explanation. It is a bit difficult to understand, (you`re explaining `colour` to a blind man) but it gives me an inkling.

Cheers,
R

Matt
03-12-2003, 07:33 PM
JohnL I do most of my modelling in SolidWorks so I know exactly what you mean!

I'd love some of the drawing tools from the draughting side of
SolidWorks in LW, especially the ability to keep tangency no matter
where you move sketch elements.

JohnL
03-13-2003, 12:37 AM
I know what you mean, it is cool to move a tangent line around and around. Well at least in the beginning!

What I really like are the hints (discreet guidelines that appear and disappear) showing me when I reach a tangency, endpoint, parrallel, perpendicular, midpoint, circle center etc.

For example in Solid Edge, if you are drawing a horizontal line and want it to end at the centerpoint of a circle that resides above it you just move your curser over the centerpoint and it shows a hint that goes down vertically towards your horizontal line and activates an object snap. Its like you are having a dialog with your drawing elements: "I want this line to end directly underneath the center of this circle".

I can't wait to hear what MonkeyMan has to hate about this kind of make-me-more-productive-functionality!

Rory_L
03-13-2003, 01:45 AM
Now now! Don`t rattle the bars; it agitates them :D

R