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robertoortiz
03-05-2019, 12:16 PM
Well as we all know Houdini and Maya seem to have a lock o the high end market,
C4D has a lock on the Graphic design/ Motion graphics market and Blender has a lock on the "newbies" market.

So what market should Lw be looking at? Mid level Fx market? Indie game dev? VR?

Tell us your ideas, and lets keep it positive.

-R

gdkeast
03-05-2019, 02:10 PM
IMHO, it seems like LW is mostly for independent and freelance artists and smaller studios. I see LW as a generalist program, allowing an independent artist the ability to meet most, if not all, of their 3D needs. In my mind, the selling point for LW is its proven track record, technical support, some really great artists who use it, and its efficiency in being able to get things done, that is, once you know how.

I would just like to see the program keep improving, keep showing what it can do and what it has done, and perhaps most importantly, more tutorials showing how these things can be done. At the end of the day, most people just want a certain result, and if LW can get them there, then I think they will be pulled to it. But if they can't find the info on how to achieve a certain result, especially as an independent, then they will probably go to the next program where they can figure it out. Just my thoughts.

Photogram
03-05-2019, 02:27 PM
For my part i focus on VR with PBR realtime rendering for archviz and design visualisation. I think that Bridges to other tools and softwares like realtime engine (Unity and Unreal) is already a good new feature for getting new users.
Things that are missing in my opinion are Substance and Quixel live link to get better workflow when texturing in pbr. I mean if i go into substance and edit the texture on my lw object the resulting node network is created on the Lightwave side. Another thing is missing is the ability to get objects or an entire scene from Unity or Unreal it can be very usefull when starting a new project.

I discovered a technology that can be a good addition for Lightwave in the motion capture field:
It's free and open source!
https://github.com/CMU-Perceptual-Computing-Lab/openpose

gar26lw
03-05-2019, 02:46 PM
i was in the middle of writing a longer reply but the short answer is, in my mind : it is not as much as what is being worked but more importantly who is working on it and all that that entails.

think ikeda etc..

mikkelen
03-05-2019, 04:31 PM
Personally, I would like LightWave to further develop as a 'competitor' to Maya. To achieve this, integrated simulations would be key; we already got a lot of nice features with bullet, but realistic ocean/water and interactive fog, etc.... would be great. Also, I find Layout messy, to say the least when doing more complex stuff. The U.I. needs some thoughts, not just one thing building on another thing. I'm not sure what the developers could and should do, but the interface needs to feel less like a bunch of dissociative features hidden behind a button, behind another button, etc, etc, etc and so and so on... If just dreaming: If I had the money, I would acquire E-on's VUE code and a couple of their developers, acquire Maxwell and RealFlow (and their developers) and the LightWave code, name and brand, and make up a new LightWave looking almost identical to the current version - but very inspired by Maxwell, built on a cutting edge modern 64-bit architecture for modelling and animation (based on the mesh engine from chronosculpt?). Or maybe construct a consortium between these companies to make a real Maya competitor... Everything can't be AutoDesk.

thomascheng
03-05-2019, 06:12 PM
Games and VR are still a growing market. Focus on indie game developers/animators/designers. Mid to big studios will only use industry standards.

hypersuperduper
03-06-2019, 04:20 AM
While I think lw should continue to be first and foremost a generalist one-stop shop, It seems to me that there is space to significantly undercut c4d on price as a 3D tool for motion design. I don’t get the impression that Blender has has taken over the low end there like i believe it has in indie games. Lightwave isn’t really there yet, but looking at where the development momentum seems to be it could get there quickly, If they add some more procedural tools, text primarily, in the vein of the spiffy new vbd evaluator they surprised us with, and made a few tweaks to the node editor to make it a little easier to do some cool effects (bake processes that require complex networks and math now into easy to use compound nodes that can be accessed directly instead of having to load them.) It could be a pretty compelling package for that sort of stuff, I mean it already is for some people despite its limitations.

AnimeJoex
03-06-2019, 07:56 AM
All of them! ;)

SBowie
03-06-2019, 11:40 AM
Please allow me to reiterate the subject of this thread, for those who may have inadvertently lost sight of it: "What market should LW be concentrating from now on?"

gar26lw
03-07-2019, 01:08 AM
best thing to do is put this question to those who used to use lw and not us. perhaps lwg can consider that?

i’m completely exhausted from too much work atm and i can’t remember if i posted a link to louis du monts work blog here or not and it got removed but maybe start with him? i think the answers would be a good starting point for some sort of plan, a roadmap, if you like. ;)

freeflyklown
03-07-2019, 04:03 AM
I'd love to have better support for (indie) game dev.

robertoortiz
03-07-2019, 04:32 AM
Games and VR are still a growing market. Focus on indie game developers/animators/designers. Mid to big studios will only use industry standards.
I can vouch for that.
I work of the US government and there is NO WAY IN HELL, they would allow me to use open source software.


I'd love to have better support for (indie) game dev.
I would suggest looking into the VR market.
The cool thing is that game dev and VR dev are very close, and the toosetsl they use overlap a lot (and Most is run on Unity/Unreal engines)

ianr
03-07-2019, 06:02 AM
While I think lw should continue to be first and foremost a generalist one-stop shop, It seems to me that there is space to significantly undercut c4d on price as a 3D tool for motion design. I don’t get the impression that Blender has has taken over the low end there like i believe it has in indie games. Lightwave isn’t really there yet, but looking at where the development momentum seems to be it could get there quickly, If they add some more procedural tools, text primarily, in the vein of the spiffy new vbd evaluator they surprised us with, and made a few tweaks to the node editor to make it a little easier to do some cool effects (bake processes that require complex networks and math now into easy to use compound nodes that can be accessed directly instead of having to load them.) It could be a pretty compelling package for that sort of stuff, I mean it already is for some people despite its limitations.


i Agree One Click Motiongraphics with the modules talking to one another launched with templates & many preset scenes

Ztreem
03-07-2019, 07:10 AM
I can vouch for that.
I work of the US government and there is NO WAY IN HELL, they would allow me to use open source software.


Why is that?

I heard that the US army used Blender to make spare parts for their airplanes with a 3d printer.
https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/u-s-marines-3d-print-f-35-part-to-save-70000-138484/

robertoortiz
03-07-2019, 08:43 AM
Why is that?

I heard that the US army used Blender to make spare parts for their airplanes with a 3d printer.
https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/u-s-marines-3d-print-f-35-part-to-save-70000-138484/

I never said it is a rational thing. And DOD and Civilian sector have different requirements that vary per agency. Security concerns seem to be the big one. Anyway fighting for Lightwave proved to be easier.

Ztreem
03-07-2019, 09:28 AM
In theory open source should be more safe as you can actually go through the whole code yourself to be sure it doesn't do anyhing strange, thats very hard with closed source software. (Of course nobody have time to do this in reality)

gar26lw
03-07-2019, 09:51 AM
I can vouch for that.
I work of the US government and there is NO WAY IN HELL, they would allow me to use open source software.


I would suggest looking into the VR market.
The cool thing is that game dev and VR dev are very close, and the toosetsl they use overlap a lot (and Most is run on Unity/Unreal engines)

strange; doing stuff for gov and they are pushing blender quite heavily. vr certainly. see modo going into that a bit atm.

it was mentioned a long time ago to cater for games (which would have positioned nicely for vr too).

interchange, core app workflows, ease of use, fast turnarounds are where i’d be focussing. better animation tools.
for example, how easy is it to snap items together in layout? how quickly can you accurately array instance items? how many clicks does it take, how many panels must be open? how easy is it to manipulate those instances after creation?
how easy is it to manage the scene? turning on visibility, layers etc. it’s could be a LOT faster and easier to do, there could be a lot more control with less complexity. this stuff is best shown in a video comparison between apps.
i think that might be a lot more productive and easier to understand for devs to see and appreciate the finer points, even just to get the concept and point that is being made without taking offence.

ianr
03-07-2019, 09:56 AM
Why is that?

I heard that the US army used Blender to make spare parts for their airplanes with a 3d printer.
https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/u-s-marines-3d-print-f-35-part-to-save-70000-138484/


Listen to Robert bro, the Biggest entrance Hacks into Cyber are through open source tampered-with software.

So don't you think that the armed forces know that, the article is either fan-boy ******** or a montage

of the truth. Fake news i a'm afraid, like lightwave made spaceships landed on the moon.

As ex-defense I agree with Roberts reaction.

BeeVee
03-07-2019, 10:08 AM
Archviz is a huge market and LightWave's Unreal Bridge should help with tapping into the emerging market for real-time visualisation of architectural projects.

B

gdkeast
03-07-2019, 10:49 AM
One thing NT might consider is offering one of the older version of LW at a discounted price. Perhaps NT could offer LW 2015 and strip out some of the rendering capabilities, maybe limiting it to HD (1920 x 1080), .jpg, or something like that, for $199 or so. Since no further development is being put into that version and it is just sitting around gathering dust, I don't imagine it would cost NT much and would allow people a chance to get into the world of LW and see that it's a solid program. Then offer them an upgrade path: a discount of what they paid for 2015 to get the latest version. I'd see something like this as a win-win for everyone. But again I think the educational part is really important. Even when you give a 3D program away for free, the learning curve (and commitment) is what seems to stop a lot of people.

Nicolas Jordan
03-07-2019, 11:15 AM
Based on the survey results that Newtek had taken Lightwave is used lots for Arch Viz. In my opinion this could be and should be expanded even further. I think there is still plenty of room for growth in this area for Lightwave to make that slice of the pie even larger rather than focusing on growing in the areas where it is used less.

raymondtrace
03-07-2019, 11:22 AM
We can move on from the distracting debate of "open source". Robertoortiz may be confused if he believes he is not disrupting his employer's "no-open-source" policy by using LW. LW uses open source components. https://www.python.org/downloads/source/

We're reading this forum because of open source components. The network that delivers the bytes through the tubes to every federal agency relies on open source components.

https://dodcio.defense.gov/open-source-software-faq/#Q:_Isn.E2.80.99t_using_open_source_software_forbi dden_by_DoD_Information_Assurance_Policy.3F

Back on topic: gdkeast is correct about education. Sales growth targets emerging markets. There's nothing more emerging than a new user. We all started with a simplified LW and structured training. That is not offered anymore.

Rayek
03-07-2019, 11:30 AM
Listen to Robert bro, the Biggest entrance Hacks into Cyber are through open source tampered-with software.

So don't you think that the armed forces know that, the article is either fan-boy ******** or a montage

of the truth. Fake news i a'm afraid, like lightwave made spaceships landed on the moon.

As ex-defense I agree with Roberts reaction.

Nowadays the term "fake news" gets thrown around as if that replaces your own responsibility to do a quick background check.

The U.S. Department of Defense has this article on this its site:
https://dod.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1498121/

While Blender is not mentioned, the names and other information seems to match. The photo of Marine Corps Chief Warrant Officer 2 Daniel Rodriguez matches the guy in the article posted by Ztreem.

Looks legit to me. They were/are probably running their own little local 3d printing station, and Blender seems an obvious choice, because it is very popular in the maker community, and free. These guys did some creative independent thinking to get that simple part replaced in a more cost-efficient and simple manner.

That is all there is to it.

robertoortiz
03-07-2019, 12:28 PM
Nowadays the term "fake news" gets thrown around as if that replaces your own responsibility to do a quick background check.

The U.S. Department of Defense has this article on this its site:
https://dod.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1498121/

While Blender is not mentioned, the names and other information seems to match. The photo of Marine Corps Chief Warrant Officer 2 Daniel Rodriguez matches the guy in the article posted by Ztreem.

Looks legit to me. They were/are probably running their own little local 3d printing station, and Blender seems an obvious choice, because it is very popular in the maker community, and free. These guys did some creative independent thinking to get that simple part replaced in a more cost-efficient and simple manner.

That is all there is to it.
I have worked in DC for ever and I can tell you, most people have no idea on how NUTS CIO departments are in terms of what gets installed on their machines. The machines are lock down to an inch of their lives. And in the Government ALWAYS security trumps cost always. And it is the OCIO who sets the goalpost, not the user. If they say no open source software, that is it. And honestly it is a fools journey to fight this windmill.

Getting back on topic.


Based on the survey results that Newtek had taken Lightwave is used lots for Arch Viz. In my opinion this could be and should be expanded even further. I think there is still plenty of room for growth in this area for Lightwave to make that slice of the pie even larger rather than focusing on growing in the areas where it is used less. I can vouch on this market.

A bud of mine is the owner of one of the top arch viz studios and their pipeline is exclusively Max(asset creation) and Unreal. Their Turnaround time is INSANELY fast.
https://illustratemydesign.com (Edit here is the studio)

erikals
03-07-2019, 02:32 PM
1- Arch Viz Modeling
2- Landscaping
3- Motion Graphics

and maintain LightWave's ability to create nice VFX for films
(1,2,3 will help this happen)

anything Dynamics related is a bonus.
anything Character Animation related is a bonus.

TheLexx
03-07-2019, 03:26 PM
anything Character Animation related is a bonus.Oh yes. There certainly is power already under the hood, but I was thinking something like TAFA native to Lightwave with a video reference preview window. Also, I have delved in a little to what is around for facial animation and nowadays it seems to be all about performace capture, so some of the previous auto-lipsync algorithms are now a couple of decades old and I'm really surprised by what has come and gone in that time. If LW had a lipsync algorithm incorporated with TAFA (or maybe complmentary to RebelHill's face rig in some way) and video reference preview, that might really lift a certain type of workflow for character animation.

BeeVee
03-07-2019, 03:45 PM
2- Landscaping


LightWave is powerful, but its talents for lawnmowing or planting herbaceous borders are not known to me, and I write the docs!

B

rustythe1
03-07-2019, 04:33 PM
I have worked in DC for ever and I can tell you, most people have no idea on how NUTS CIO departments are in terms of what gets installed on their machines. The machines are lock down to an inch of their lives. And in the Government ALWAYS security trumps cost always. And it is the OCIO who sets the goalpost, not the user. If they say no open source software, that is it. And honestly it is a fools journey to fight this windmill.

Getting back on topic.

I can vouch on this market.

A bud of mine is the owner of one of the top arch viz studios and their pipeline is exclusively Max(asset creation) and Unreal. Their Turnaround time is INSANELY fast.
https://illustratemydesign.com (Edit here is the studio)

and truth be told, here in the u.k. if you have over a certain amount of employees, your not actually allowed to use free software legally as there has to be a full Tax trail for everything used to make money, in my old job we actually had to remove microsoft security essentials from all our supplied servers and recorders because at the time it was not fully integrated with windows and considered free software, the tax man did an audit on our software systems and spotted it and we had to start paying out for anti virus,


I can vouch for the arch viz thing too, been working in groups where we have grabbed the attention of some very big names, but like always cant talk about it, its actually amazing how many very big (global and government funded) companies you would expect to be on the fore front of that technology, being as they are so far ahead with their own technology, but don't actually have a clue!

TheLexx
03-07-2019, 04:51 PM
and truth be told, here in the u.k. if you have over a certain amount of employees, your not actually allowed to use free software legally as there has to be a full Tax trail for everything used to make money, in my old job we actually had to remove microsoft security essentials from all our supplied servers and recorders because at the time it was not fully integrated with windows and considered free software, the tax man did an audit on our software systems and spotted it and we had to start paying out for anti virus,


Surely not ? I mean, I believe you, but surely the individual tax guy was in error ? They can't force you to use paid software, and I'm pretty sure there are some pro studios using Blender.

:)

raymondtrace
03-07-2019, 05:00 PM
and truth be told, here in the u.k. if you have over a certain amount of employees, your not actually allowed to use free software legally as there has to be a full...

So, nobody in a large business can use Chrome browser, Firefox browser, or any Linux OS? Sounds sketchy.

erikals
03-07-2019, 11:45 PM
LightWave is powerful, but its talents for lawnmowing or planting herbaceous borders are not known to me, and I write the docs!
B

Talking about basically what Rob Powers did on Avatar.

rustythe1
03-08-2019, 02:19 AM
So, nobody in a large business can use Chrome browser, Firefox browser, or any Linux OS? Sounds sketchy.

its not in that respect, you can use free software (I don't claim to fully understand it,) it was to do with software that was directly being used/supplied to customers i.e. in use for profit, you could technically use any software for research as I believe there is a tax relief for research, its also something that wont affect every company as there are many ways to do your tax and each has its own set of rules (its likely to do with VAT and if you charge a customer full VAT for a service then everything under that has to have a VAT trail, free stuff that is completely standalone e.g. not supplied with say some hardware wouldn't have any trail), and problems like that only arise if you get an audit,

kopperdrake
03-08-2019, 02:21 AM
Archviz is a huge market and LightWave's Unreal Bridge should help with tapping into the emerging market for real-time visualisation of architectural projects.

B

Is the Unreal Bridge route something a small studio with no prior experience can make use of? I'm definitely interested in this, but wouldn't want to plough a lot of time on a route that proves too large for a small independent to compete in/keep up with.

TheLexx
03-08-2019, 03:06 AM
its not in that respect, you can use free software (I don't claim to fully understand it,) it was to do with software that was directly being used/supplied to customers i.e. in use for profit, you could technically use any software for research as I believe there is a tax relief for research, its also something that wont affect every company as there are many ways to do your tax and each has its own set of rules (its likely to do with VAT and if you charge a customer full VAT for a service then everything under that has to have a VAT trail, free stuff that is completely standalone e.g. not supplied with say some hardware wouldn't have any trail), and problems like that only arise if you get an audit,In no way reflects on you personaly, but it seems the company tried some sort of tax discount based on market value with software which was actually free, then got caught out (!). I was just surprised at the notion that a taxman could somehow decide IT policy for a company, as I'm sure many users would "crown him" if he tried a trick like that. :)

gar26lw
03-08-2019, 03:08 AM
Is the Unreal Bridge route something a small studio with no prior experience can make use of? I'm definitely interested in this, but wouldn't want to plough a lot of time on a route that proves too large for a small independent to compete in/keep up with.

yeah pretty easy and with the speed of lw renderer now and rtx cards coming online, one to consider.

BeeVee
03-08-2019, 04:01 AM
It really is and I want the docs to have a section of tutorials on using LightWave with Unreal, but I need users with knowledge on the subject to help :). If you'd like to, contact me at [email protected]

B

rustythe1
03-08-2019, 12:08 PM
Is the Unreal Bridge route something a small studio with no prior experience can make use of? I'm definitely interested in this, but wouldn't want to plough a lot of time on a route that proves too large for a small independent to compete in/keep up with.

yes, its a brilliant addition, literally one click and fast, so easy to set up camera animations in lw and have them instantly appear in unreal and be able to render them from the sequencer

Bernie2Strokes
03-08-2019, 07:06 PM
Ever since Unreal Engine began expanding itself into other areas outside video games it's become a useful media software. But I would like more affordable, interactive tools to become available to be used for both of them. I can't afford an AR capable screen i.e. tablet, mobile phone. It would be great if there was a new alternative device for Nevron Motion because Unreal Engine's motion capture features are said to be good.

gar26lw
03-08-2019, 07:14 PM
yes, its a brilliant addition, literally one click and fast, so easy to set up camera animations in lw and have them instantly appear in unreal and be able to render them from the sequencer

if you look at the evee and 1000 ways of lw and blender threads, i think some bridge to those renderers would be advantageous. it pains me to say it but there is no point working on the lw renderer, it’s just too slow.

i think this is the way for lw to remain in the game; leverage others tech, while making the base package extremely fast to work in and produce.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-08-2019, 09:14 PM
The native renderer is still superb for high rez print, npr and broadcast graphics. Keep improving the nodal interface. Keep optimizing and refining the surfacing and rendering. Try to get GPU in there leveraging Nvidia and prorender tech. Just make sure integration with Octane and Unreal is seamless and up to date.

gar26lw
03-08-2019, 09:24 PM
i think the rest of the package needs the love. rendering is too much of the focus.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-08-2019, 09:32 PM
Fine. As long as they stay the course and keep Antti on full time.

gar26lw
03-08-2019, 10:37 PM
well yeah,i’m not slating his work. does a good job. just that the rest of the package is suffering.

erikals
03-09-2019, 02:56 AM
NT has no choice, they need to cut down render times,
or else many will jump to Blender for rendering.
however, i believe NT will follow up in the near future, providing decent render times.

gar26lw
03-09-2019, 03:35 AM
NT has no choice, they need to cut down render times,
or else many will jump to Blender for rendering.
however, i believe NT will follow up in the near future, providing decent render times.

this has happened already

kopperdrake
03-09-2019, 03:57 AM
Thanks for the replies chaps - I've added it to my 'look at this next time you have some spare time' list :D

Ztreem
03-09-2019, 07:04 AM
NT has no choice, they need to cut down render times,
or else many will jump to Blender for rendering.
however, i believe NT will follow up in the near future, providing decent render times.

As render times is the only issue!? For render times there are plenty of solutions already but for unification there is none, besides go elsewhere.

erikals
03-09-2019, 07:14 AM
lack of unification is an issue for some, not for all. i doubt we'll see unification anytime soon, especially since NT haven't decided yet weather they want to unify or not.
so if unification is your thing, LightWave is not for you. (for the time being)
however, a small comfort, is, that doesn't exclude a better Modeler / Layout workflow, if you want to know more,
read > https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?159289-GPU-Rendering-Anywhere-in-the-development-pipeline-for-Lightwave&p=1565872&viewfull=1#post1565872

Farhad_azer
03-09-2019, 07:50 AM
Yessss, more Arch Viz please.

Ztreem
03-09-2019, 08:28 AM
lack of unification is an issue for some, not for all. i doubt we'll see unification anytime soon, especially since NT haven't decided yet weather they want to unify or not.
so if unification is your thing, LightWave is not for you. (for the time being)
however, a small comfort, is, that doesn't exclude a better Modeler / Layout workflow, if you want to know more,
read > https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?159289-GPU-Rendering-Anywhere-in-the-development-pipeline-for-Lightwave&p=1565872&viewfull=1#post1565872

I started to use Blender as my main app instead and use LW most for open old projects. As I see it, there is no benefit at all with the split workflow in LW. I have a feeling that NT mostly listen to big studios( not strange as they surely buy more licenses), but they usually use more apps and maybe do all their animations in a unified environment(Maya) and olny render in LW. So for them unification is not very important. I realized when they released 2018 that unification wasn’t really a priority for NT so I switched, as I have waited for unification since LW 7. Now there is no chance I go back to the split workflow, just too slow and cumbersome.

vncnt
03-09-2019, 09:32 AM
Personally, I would like LightWave to further develop as a 'competitor' to Maya. .....
I agree with this part but I'd like to see modernizations in character animation.

We already got Genoma, PBR and renderer so why not taking the next step and improve key handling?
One contemporary timeline that's global enough to direct characters (and their speech) and detailed enough to drill down to the lowest level. A streamlined, clip based, multi-layer, unified timeline.

This would strengthen Lightwave in many markets.

erikals
03-09-2019, 09:39 AM
I started to use Blender as my main app instead and use LW most for open old projects. As I see it, there is no benefit at all with the split workflow in LW. I have a feeling that NT mostly listen to big studios( not strange as they surely buy more licenses), but they usually use more apps and maybe do all their animations in a unified environment(Maya) and olny render in LW. So for them unification is not very important. I realized when they released 2018 that unification wasn’t really a priority for NT so I switched, as I have waited for unification since LW 7. Now there is no chance I go back to the split workflow, just too slow and cumbersome.


*no benefit
this is true, there is basically no benefit, the main problem is the time it would take porting M/L.
however there are operations where the M/L split is less obvious. (Indie movies / Movie production as an example)

Ztreem
03-09-2019, 10:02 AM
Maybe not obvious but still not a benefit or timesaver.

gar26lw
03-09-2019, 03:44 PM
it will never be unified. the unified version is modo.

robertoortiz
03-09-2019, 06:22 PM
Ok guys, how do you feel about the motion graphics Market?

erikals
03-09-2019, 06:41 PM
LightWave has the potential, but can't keep up with other apps on that area.
a unified app is important to work efficiently with Motion Graphics.

that, or Modeling / Tweak tools brought from Modeler into Layout.
(animate chamfer, animate bevel, animate thickness, animate boolean, etc etc etc...)

Chris S. (Fez)
03-09-2019, 06:46 PM
I think they know what they need to do to make LW more competitive and that is to make modeling, layout and ultimately animation more procedural and non-destructive...without losing too much of the immediacy that makes Lightwave so fast for certain projects.

LW Group is going their own way. Some Lightwavers are fine with this. Some are not. That's also fine. In any case, no need to hijack yet another thread.

gar26lw
03-09-2019, 06:48 PM
if the link was live between modeller and layout, like it is in the unreal bridge, that might work.

if lw has a concept like unity prefabs, that would also help. so we could have lights and characters and models within a prefab, nested, containing other prefabs and edit that independent of the main scene.

lightwave/modeller split is very much like unity/3d app in terms of workflow.

there is a lot to be gained from looking at unity and comparison to layout.

erikals
03-09-2019, 07:13 PM
yep,

one can't discuss one without mentioning the other, since they should be tied closely together.

it is an inevitable question from newcomers, but soon i'll quit mentioning anything related to Modeler / Layout, since...
1- i've advocated the merge plenty of times
2- i'm a bit tired talking/writing about, why merge, versus why not, versus alternatives.

so "newbies" will get fewer answers from me, if it means bringing up the Modeler / Layout question, again.

Bernie2Strokes
03-09-2019, 07:26 PM
Ok guys, how do you feel about the motion graphics Market?

Motion graphics isn't completely reliant on 3D so I'm not sure in which aspects you're talking about. Do you mean should be there be better integration with other motion graphics software? Then yes. But if you mean should NewTeK further develop special effects for it then I'd suggest they be careful. Some effects are just trendy, i.e. laser lights, liquid effects, hologram communications.

Here's one website that covers last year's trends in motion graphics:

https://pixflow.net/blog/top-motion-graphic-trends/

Chris S. (Fez)
03-09-2019, 07:37 PM
there is a lot to be gained from looking at unity and compassion to layout.



Agreed

Chernoby
03-09-2019, 08:00 PM
That IK FK rig that needs no weight blending from 2019 posted earlier here... that was IMPRESSIVE. It is better than Maya's HIK rig which is buggy as hell. Make that rig a basis for more cross-platform functionality with Unity and Unreal and package it with a UI within Layout (and actual documentation). Maya has this same function with a crappier rig but it is set up as a feature with a big shiny icon next to the channel box and attribute editor. That NT rig alone is a game changer. It is so like NT to have something that superb and leave it buried with no pomp and circumstance... like IK Booster all over again.

vncnt
03-10-2019, 09:24 AM
Would be cool to see LW Modeler and Layout for Microsoft HoloLens 2.
Creating a Box with gestures and animate while walking around it!

gar26lw
03-10-2019, 09:38 AM
That IK FK rig that needs no weight blending from 2019 posted earlier here... that was IMPRESSIVE. It is better than Maya's HIK rig which is buggy as hell. Make that rig a basis for more cross-platform functionality with Unity and Unreal and package it with a UI within Layout (and actual documentation). Maya has this same function with a crappier rig but it is set up as a feature with a big shiny icon next to the channel box and attribute editor. That NT rig alone is a game changer. It is so like NT to have something that superb and leave it buried with no pomp and circumstance... like IK Booster all over again.

i think it’s from 2015

Exclaim
03-10-2019, 12:01 PM
Please allow me to reiterate the subject of this thread, for those who may have inadvertently lost sight of it: "What market should LW be concentrating from now on?"

Animation and entertainment. Its smaller than CAD and Arch, but it is Lightwave's hometown.

hrgiger
03-11-2019, 07:53 AM
If I were NT, I'd pretty much jettison modeler since they are so far behind in it and have largely ignored it anyway and focus on developing the Layout environment. Simply focus on scene management and rendering.

TheLexx
03-11-2019, 08:09 AM
If I were NT, I'd pretty much jettison modeler since they are so far behind in it and have largely ignored it anyway and focus on developing the Layout environment. Simply focus on scene management and rendering.Translation - Modo is waaay better than Modeler, and at the cost of $1799.00, who knew ? :D If Modeler turned into Modo tomorrow, then added that cost in addition to a cost for Layout, would that be better ? Price points surely ? :)

hrgiger
03-11-2019, 03:18 PM
Translation - Modo is waaay better than Modeler, and at the cost of $1799.00, who knew ? :D If Modeler turned into Modo tomorrow, then added that cost in addition to a cost for Layout, would that be better ? Price points surely ? :)

Its not just Modo. Any app. And LightWave might be the only one that lacks any type of procedural modeling. If NT wants to put any focus on modeling, it should be in the layout environment imo. And if people want a cheaper and better modeler, there is always Blender.

gar26lw
03-11-2019, 04:01 PM
as soon as people start to use blender for modeling, it’s the end. eventually it will all be done there.

Ztreem
03-11-2019, 05:10 PM
as soon as people start to use blender for modeling, it’s the end. eventually it will all be done there.

They already started and its great! Modeler is great if you have not tested anything else since 1999. Its like the split workflow, works great until you test a unified workflow, then it’s not that great anymore.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-12-2019, 03:41 AM
How are the last couple posts even remotely on topic? The lack of courtesy, the single-minded pessimism, the total disregard for forum rules and any pretense of professionalism...all utterly expected.

gar26lw
03-12-2019, 03:52 AM
If I were NT, I'd pretty much jettison modeler since they are so far behind in it and have largely ignored it anyway and focus on developing the Layout environment. Simply focus on scene management and rendering.

id rather dump layout and keep modeller.

Danner
03-12-2019, 06:29 AM
Concentrating on Archviz and games is what I'd recommend, and now with realtime rendering technologies, they are more alike than ever so we use the same tools. I have been using Lightwave for Arch Viz and game assets for a long time and it has been just over a year already that all my rendering is done in Unreal. Some of the game assets I create are for Unreal and others for Unity.
The bridge to Unreal is quite useful and I also like how the UV tools have improved so we are advancing in these areas. The thing I miss the most when coming back from using Unity and unreal is the navigation. Not that it's bad in LW, it's just that there are some really nice choices in the game engines, like right click+wasd to navigate first person shooter style. Unreal specially has some excellent navigation controls, like shift for looking around and alt for spining around and click dragging to creep forward or backward precisely. I so wish the whole industry would agree on navigation. As it is now my mind wants to explode sometimes from having to switch back and forth from 3 different navigation systems.

gar26lw
03-12-2019, 06:45 AM
i’ve been banging on about navigation for a long time. nobody gets it, it seems.

i think i will roll one out..

it’s like having a manual in a country who predominantly drive automatics.

just copy unity with its nav, it’s snapping, it’s nested prefabs. the docking ui, the asset browser..

hrgiger
03-12-2019, 08:36 AM
How are the last couple posts even remotely on topic? The lack of courtesy, the single-minded pessimism, the total disregard for forum rules and any pretense of professionalism...all utterly expected.

Not sure how you think its not on topic or breaking any type of forum rule. I didn't even bring up another specific software package as a comparison. I'm suggesting they not focus on the asset creation market because they have no way to compete in that market any longer in any way. Thing is, every package out there that they're known for, some type of niche they're best at. For LW, that used to be modeling, used to be rendering. But that was almost 20 years ago. Moving aside from your own personal feelings for a minute, ask yourself honestly what LW is perceived to be good at these days? The truth is, a lot of people aren't even aware LW still exists. So I'm suggesting that LW should focus on the one area they've actually developed over the last many years and that is the Layout environment where they can still be be sort of a lower cost alternative to something like Clarisse as a layout and scene management tool.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-12-2019, 08:37 AM
Not sure how you think its not on topic or breaking any type of forum rule. I didn't even bring up another specific software package as a comparison. I'm suggesting they not focus on the asset creation market because they have no way to compete in that market any longer in any way. Thing is, every package out there that they're known for, some type of niche they're best at. For LW, that used to be modeling, used to be rendering. But that was almost 20 years ago. Moving aside from your own personal feelings for a minute, ask yourself honestly what LW is perceived to be good at these days? The truth is, a lot of people aren't even aware LW still exists. So I'm suggesting that LW should focus on the one area they've actually developed over the last many years and that is the Layout environment where they can still be be sort of a lower cost alternative to something like Clarisse as a layout and scene management tool.

I wasn't talking about your post

TheLexx
03-12-2019, 09:30 AM
...ask yourself honestly what LW is perceived to be good at these days? The truth is, a lot of people aren't even aware LW still exists.These are all perfectly reasonable questions and points, but LW came out of a long silent period and is looking to build momentum again and I think the development in contrast has been really good. It's natural for users to look for magic tools - an architect might want one thing and an animator another thing. Personally I think official training needs a shake-up, like recommended workflow scenarios for generalists. Like if they incorporated Messiah Studio tomorrow, I doubt many could fully utilise it (inc me). I have yet to master Metamorphic - you might remember the recent Roundtable demo when the dev did the arm muscle deformation and said something along the lines "Not many people know this but...." :)

rustythe1
03-12-2019, 09:55 AM
Not sure how you think its not on topic or breaking any type of forum rule. I didn't even bring up another specific software package as a comparison. I'm suggesting they not focus on the asset creation market because they have no way to compete in that market any longer in any way. Thing is, every package out there that they're known for, some type of niche they're best at. For LW, that used to be modeling, used to be rendering. But that was almost 20 years ago. Moving aside from your own personal feelings for a minute, ask yourself honestly what LW is perceived to be good at these days? The truth is, a lot of people aren't even aware LW still exists. So I'm suggesting that LW should focus on the one area they've actually developed over the last many years and that is the Layout environment where they can still be be sort of a lower cost alternative to something like Clarisse as a layout and scene management tool.

actually I think Clarisse is cheaper than lightwave if your not upgrading,
and for asset creation, wouldn't lightwave be better when working in areas like unreal, surely you would have to go through steps when using things like procedural and deformation tools to get assets into other pipelines, at which point I assume the procedural tool becomes irrelevant (think the terminology for procedural tool is wrong, in the sense that modo uses the term wrong, if you look up the definition of procedural modelling it refers to creating procedurally generated instances in software like c4d, Houdini, so we can do that in layout?, modo version seems more like max modifier stack?)

Chris S. (Fez)
03-12-2019, 10:27 AM
At work. No time to really respond. I think LW, while no longer the best at anything, still does "everything" reasonably well. For asset creation and focused, straight forward projects, it is quite fast. Admittedly with mandatory 3rd party tools. 3rd Powers. Oliver. Sensei. Mike. The lack of procedural modeling is a problem but hopefully this will be addressed. The instancing in Layout is intuitive and powerful and offers a certain degree of proceduralism and excellent nodal workflow. I'm hoping LW Group can expand on that.

LW 2019 is a fine pipeline tool. The Unreal integration was a smart move.

ianr
03-12-2019, 10:32 AM
The scene density of Clarisse is staggering, that is why large data sets are loaded in with some ease

& is the choice of a lot of film boutiques. Linked with the possible introduction of something like Cameron's

plug for Pre- Vis LW in Avatar, which which Rob.P. called Nested Worlds inter-reacting with a look-ahead L.O.D.

( level-of -detail) which we are about to see in Houdini 17.5. LightWave could get speedy. So over U the Devs!

i'm sure that asked nicely, Cameron could donate the plugin back to the community to be absorbed in LW2020.

ristoraven
03-12-2019, 11:02 AM
I think LW devs should just free their minds: Give us stuff we don't even know we need and want. :)
I am starting a test project with UE4, I would also love to be able to use wasd in navigating in Layout, like in UE4 / in game.

hrgiger
03-12-2019, 12:02 PM
actually I think Clarisse is cheaper than lightwave if your not upgrading,
and for asset creation, wouldn't lightwave be better when working in areas like unreal, surely you would have to go through steps when using things like procedural and deformation tools to get assets into other pipelines, at which point I assume the procedural tool becomes irrelevant (think the terminology for procedural tool is wrong, in the sense that modo uses the term wrong, if you look up the definition of procedural modelling it refers to creating procedurally generated instances in software like c4d, Houdini, so we can do that in layout?, modo version seems more like max modifier stack?)

Procedural based tools are huge in games. Just look at the latest Houdini release and its newest game focused tools. You also have procedural materials like what can be done within Substance Designer for direct use in Unreal. And procedural modeling really has nothing to do with generating instances like what is done in Layout. Its generating and shaping/manipulating geometry (or instances) based on a set of rules and parameters that can drive other parameters non-destructively. Modo does just that. The fact that the UI is stack based like Max is merely its front end, its still nodes with channels that can be driven in countless ways for rigs and assemblies. Everything is animatable and non-destructive.

Frankly, I'm kind of curious why they thought an Unreal Bridge was important for LW. I mean, first, I would have went with Unity, almost everyone I knew of that was using LW and a game engine was using Unity. Secondly, with all of the problems and shortcomings Modeler has, the answer was a bridge to Unreal? I guess they think Modeler is 'good enough'.

ristoraven
03-12-2019, 12:43 PM
Frankly, I'm kind of curious why they thought an Unreal Bridge was important for LW. I mean, first, I would have went with Unity, almost everyone I knew of that was using LW and a game engine was using Unity. Secondly, with all of the problems and shortcomings Modeler has, the answer was a bridge to Unreal? I guess they think Modeler is 'good enough'.

I did one small project with Unity.. the very nature of Unity drove me almost insane. It is constantly a work in progress, and features that work in version X.01 doesn't work in version X.02 and these are things you just find out constantly. It's just one big bug hunting in Unity, instead of developing your own project, and search of convoluted workarounds. Not touching that ever again.

To me the integration with UE4 is a very welcome feature and what sold the LW2019 upgrade to me (and FBX update and smoothing groups). I also prefer UE4s node based workflow, instead of typing the code.
LW2019+3Dcoat+UE4 is a very powerful trio.

Personally, I don't see the procedural modelling that important. It would be nice, but nothing I can't live without..

Chris S. (Fez)
03-12-2019, 12:56 PM
I guess they think Modeler is 'good enough'.

If last year's survey is any indication LW Group is likely working on Modeler. There are many firms using Unreal and creating assets for unreal. It is exploding for arch viz and other markets. If LW can be a part of that pipeline then that can't be bad for business.

Marander
03-12-2019, 01:54 PM
I did one small project with Unity.. the very nature of Unity drove me almost insane. It is constantly a work in progress, and features that work in version X.01 doesn't work in version X.02 and these are things you just find out constantly. It's just one big bug hunting in Unity, instead of developing your own project, and search of convoluted workarounds. Not touching that ever again.

To me the integration with UE4 is a very welcome feature and what sold the LW2019 upgrade to me (and FBX update and smoothing groups). I also prefer UE4s node based workflow, instead of typing the code.
LW2019+3Dcoat+UE4 is a very powerful trio.

Personally, I don't see the procedural modelling that important. It would be nice, but nothing I can't live without..

Thanks for sharing your Unity experience. In my few experiments I found UE also more pleasing to work with. The LW2019 / UE bridge works well indeed.

Marander
03-12-2019, 02:10 PM
In my opinion NewTek should focus on these markets:

- Gaming (Unreal / Unity) integration, native Substance support (requires tools from Oliver now)
- Character animation - update Graph Editor, OnionSkinning, Animation Layers, Face rigs and MoCap, update Nevron and implement natively, replace IKBooster finally, DAZ integration, Anime-style animation features
- Update core functionality and fix UI issues
- Implement simple procedural modeling tools and spline in Layout and leave Modeler as it is - I see no hope there
- Keep updating the render engine, I like what I see with the new shaders in 2019
- Keep updating and improving pipeline integration. What about a Houdini Engine integration?

and for me personally...

- Special Effects! LightWave was famous for that. A new powerful particle system is overdue! Improve the openVDB implementation. The new Volumetrics and Gas solver in 2018 / 2019 are a great start!

It would raise attention for new users with specific / unique special effects features. Make JJ Abrams big budget film effects possible on a low budget. LenseFlares 2.0 please ;-)

hrgiger
03-12-2019, 05:46 PM
(think the terminology for procedural tool is wrong, in the sense that modo uses the term wrong, if you look up the definition of procedural modelling it refers to creating procedurally generated instances in software like c4d, Houdini, so we can do that in layout?, modo version seems more like max modifier stack?)


https://vimeo.com/321877767

erikals
03-12-2019, 06:08 PM
- Special Effects! LightWave was famous for that.
yup, you mean Visual Effects, but i mix those all the time. (SFX & VFX)

wouldn't hurt if NewTek once again got onboard that train...
https://i.imgur.com/6zX8kRS.gif

Chris S. (Fez)
03-12-2019, 07:45 PM
When LW Cad tools or 3rd Powers (like Boolean) tools are "live" users are free to edit and make adjustments. I'm hoping LW Group can allow us to return to "live" mode at any time. Flexible but simple and fast.

Nodal modeling in Layout integrated with LW nodal would be welcome. Maybe "Modeler" nodes that store geometry edits. Some sort of Modifier Stack and Endomorph hybrid.

adk
03-13-2019, 12:33 AM
Procedural based tools are huge in games. Just look at the latest Houdini release and its newest game focused tools. You also have procedural materials like what can be done within Substance Designer for direct use in Unreal. And procedural modeling really has nothing to do with generating instances like what is done in Layout. Its generating and shaping/manipulating geometry (or instances) based on a set of rules and parameters that can drive other parameters non-destructively. Modo does just that. The fact that the UI is stack based like Max is merely its front end, its still nodes with channels that can be driven in countless ways for rigs and assemblies. Everything is animatable and non-destructive.

Frankly, I'm kind of curious why they thought an Unreal Bridge was important for LW. I mean, first, I would have went with Unity, almost everyone I knew of that was using LW and a game engine was using Unity. Secondly, with all of the problems and shortcomings Modeler has, the answer was a bridge to Unreal? I guess they think Modeler is 'good enough'.

From my personal experience and for our types of requirements, building precinct scale (basic) walk throughs, in Unity and UE, I would go with UE almost every time.
Unity took me slightly less time to pick up but my capability and speed with it was way less than it is with UE4.
Blueprints has it's quirks and the contexts are still hazy for me but I've been able to build almost every functionality we need pretty much from scratch and within very quick timeframes.
Granted it's nothing super advanced, but the nodal workflow and zero coding really does speed things up. For me anyway.
I can't imagine coding a quarter of the stuff in Unity that I've been able to test and roll out in UE.
I do consider myself terrible at programming however so for those that don't your mileage will vary.

The LightWave - UE interchange that NewTek built is great to work with and way more flexible and stable than DataSmith implementations from other tools that we use.
You'll hear zero complaints from me and it's already saved me a tonne of work and headaches in the past week.
Instancing is handled beautifully and properly (with hierarchical instanced meshes) and material interchange works pretty well (for my simple needs) - tho could be better for other folks I'm sure.

I wish I could show some of the project off, but it's all under wraps and unlikely to see the public light of day anytime soon I'm afraid.

The newest Houdini release does look fantastic hrgiger, no argument there. It's capabilities are formidable.

Ztreem
03-13-2019, 01:10 AM
If you like visual scripting(I do) and still like Unity more than Unreal. I can highly recommend Playmaker for visual scripting. It’s more of a state machine but due to its high level you can do things really fast.

Gene1
03-13-2019, 03:48 PM
As a retired engineer, the engineering applications are not that great at modeling and rendering for 3d printing for industrial use. Maybe to scale 3d Modeling and rendering for 3d printing using mediums like metal for industry.
At the house I used Rhino 3d to make a part for one of my vehicles because It was easier to make for printing with Rhino and Rhino could import and exports to a huge list of engineering applications.

As a user for over 20 years, I'm not leaving until the lights go out. Just a suggestion, but LW lost the kids (Now adults) when 3D max was flooding the user groups in the old newsgroups with their program and the kids grew up using it. Give LW to select film and graphic schools - like Goodyear gives tires to NASCAR. Everything grows from a seed.

robertoortiz
03-14-2019, 06:27 AM
As a retired engineer, the engineering applications are not that great at modeling and rendering for 3d printing for industrial use. Maybe to scale 3d Modeling and rendering for 3d printing using mediums like metal for industry.
At the house I used Rhino 3d to make a part for one of my vehicles because It was easier to make for printing with Rhino and Rhino could import and exports to a huge list of engineering applications.

As a user for over 20 years, I'm not leaving until the lights go out. Just a suggestion, but LW lost the kids (Now adults) when 3D max was flooding the user groups in the old newsgroups with their program and the kids grew up using it. Give LW to select film and graphic schools - like Goodyear gives tires to NASCAR. Everything grows from a seed.
I would second that.
Hell another thing they could try is to offer Lightwave 2015 at a discount ON STEAM (for about $200.00). It would be a sure to get to the gamers, and offer and upgrade path to the latest release.

gar26lw
03-14-2019, 06:54 AM
i don’t think that will work with maya, max and blender free.

robertoortiz
03-14-2019, 08:41 AM
i don’t think that will work with maya, max and blender free.
I get the free Blender.... But Maya? Since when? And if so, is it a full version?

gar26lw
03-14-2019, 08:58 AM
maya and max both have an educational version, fully unrestricted. you could try it out right now, if you wanted to educate yourself in its use. non commercial use. it could well be most of ad products. it’s a very nice educational policy that they have, not to mention a wise investment on their part. nt should do the same.

robertoortiz
03-14-2019, 11:31 AM
maya and max both have an educational version, fully unrestricted. you could try it out right now, if you wanted to educate yourself in its use. non commercial use. it could well be most of ad products. it’s a very nice educational policy that they have, not to mention a wise investment on their part. nt should do the same.

Well there is that whole non commercial use thing. I know of companies that have gotten NAILED over that. Having said that, a free educational version for valid students is not a bad idea. But I still stand on my STEAM idea.

Rayek
03-14-2019, 12:13 PM
I would second that.
Hell another thing they could try is to offer Lightwave 2015 at a discount ON STEAM (for about $200.00). It would be a sure to get to the gamers, and offer and upgrade path to the latest release.

Pains me to say this, but that would be a fruitless effort. Not with Blender on Steam, which is already entrenched in exactly the same market, and very popular with indie game devs and modders. Not with thousands of overwhelmingly positive reviews on Steam. Worse, no chance to compete with v2.8 around the corner when it hits Steam and all its GUI and viewport eye-candy. The kids already love 2.8 beta.

Modo Indie is available for a low montly rent on Steam, and Max and Maya, as was mentioned earlier, are available for "free", and kids couldn't care less about those "please don't use for commercial work" restrictions, and Autodesk is fully aware of this, and don't care, of course for obvious reasons. And Houdini Indie pretty much aims at the same markets: Lightwave, even at $200, would be competing with that powerhouse on Steam.

Lightwave would be swimming upsteam on a mountain slope with both legs tied to a anchor. (see what I did there ;-) )

Unless Lightwave Modeler gets an amazing update with fully non-destructive modernized modeling tools and is integrated into Layout, I think the time and energy spent on putting LW on Steam would be best focused elsewhere first. Get it up to speed with modern applications in regards to GUI, modeling, and viewport quality before trying to compete on Steam.

Not trying to be pessimistic here, but rather realistic.

erikals
03-14-2019, 09:27 PM
it's simple,

all they need to do is to make LightWave great again.

how, doesn't really matter. https://i.imgur.com/BYFz23S.gif

gar26lw
03-15-2019, 06:51 AM
Mlwga ? :)

thomascheng
03-15-2019, 12:46 PM
I think they should just strength themselves in the market that they are currently good at. Why split their focus on adding new tools with markets that might not turn out so great. Split app is still a problem if someone wants to tweak a model to a position in layout. They can't do it without round tripping every tweak... Ugghhh. The only down side to unification is the time it takes to implement.

Anyway, don't go for new market, make Lightwave great at Architecture and VFX for Generalist.

gar26lw
03-15-2019, 06:44 PM
which market is a split app good in?

Tim Parsons
03-15-2019, 09:08 PM
which market is a split app good in?

Furniture design. :)

Marander
03-16-2019, 08:00 PM
Furniture design. :)

I don't see why a split app helps with that or has any advantage over a unified environment.

Certainly a task that can be done in LW without limitations I agree.

However not having a unified environment or procedural workflow can make certain (repeating) tasks or design tedious.

You might want to create your furniture using procedural deformers (bend, shear, twist etc.) - which are not visible or usable in Modeler, procedural modeling falloffs, parametric mirroring / symmetry (model only half or a quarter of the object), use parametric splines / lofts / sweeps, extrudes etc., the ability to change edge profiles or bevels later, adding procedural displacements, having several "takes" with different material or shape variations in the scene, arranging along other objects / parts, parametric instances or clones of parts, non-destructive / live booleans, create procedural assets (think of furniture objects where you can change measures or other parameters with sliders and input fields), cloth / fur (carpets, fabrics) simulation, openVDB / voxel modeling, having different perspectives / cameras, creating procedural assembly animations...

...without syncing objects between apps while keeping the geometry / objects parametric and having the object in the correct place in the scene.

In my opinion using splines and other parametric objects can be more efficient than creating static geometry in Modeler.

gar26lw
03-16-2019, 08:46 PM
has anyone here moved over to a unified app but then moved back?
i have in 2015 but that was for render speed and ease of setups. no animation was needed.

Kryslin
03-16-2019, 10:09 PM
I moved here from Maya and Rhino3d...

While I like Rhino's accuracy, Lightwave is relatively simple in comparison, and quicker to set up things and get good results.
Maya is like scaling a vertical cliff face, no safety lines. Industry "standard" and all that, and a bear to use (2008 & 2009 did not play nice with my system at the time).

hypersuperduper
03-17-2019, 02:46 AM
has anyone here moved over to a unified app but then moved back?
i have in 2015 but that was for render speed and ease of setups. no animation was needed.
I did a pretty long project in blender, and while it had some real advantages primarily due to the unified environment, I wound up returning to lightwave for the next project simply because on balance I prefer using it, warts and all. Every app has its limitations and idiosyncrasies. The modeler/ layout split is just one of those.

Tim Parsons
03-17-2019, 10:55 AM
I don't see why a split app helps with that or has any advantage over a unified environment.

Certainly a task that can be done in LW without limitations I agree.

However not having a unified environment or procedural workflow can make certain (repeating) tasks or design tedious.

You might want to create your furniture using procedural deformers (bend, shear, twist etc.) - which are not visible or usable in Modeler, procedural modeling falloffs, parametric mirroring / symmetry (model only half or a quarter of the object), use parametric splines / lofts / sweeps, extrudes etc., the ability to change edge profiles or bevels later, adding procedural displacements, having several "takes" with different material or shape variations in the scene, arranging along other objects / parts, parametric instances or clones of parts, non-destructive / live booleans, create procedural assets (think of furniture objects where you can change measures or other parameters with sliders and input fields), cloth / fur (carpets, fabrics) simulation, openVDB / voxel modeling, having different perspectives / cameras, creating procedural assembly animations...

...without syncing objects between apps while keeping the geometry / objects parametric and having the object in the correct place in the scene.

In my opinion using splines and other parametric objects can be more efficient than creating static geometry in Modeler.

Some good points for sure, but that still does not require a unified app. I am for unification of the two, but its not a deal breaker for what me and my team members do.

jbrookes
03-19-2019, 09:48 AM
Film and Television. There are so many components of LW that are well-tailored to that market. No reason to abandon that sector.

VonBon
03-19-2019, 09:16 PM
They need to focus on their strengths, Modeling and Rendering.

Wasn't Viper like the 1st interactive renderer in the Industry?
I'm not sure but I think so.

I also think VPR came out 1st too and then everyone else came
up with similar tech. I could be wrong about this too.

And even tho its outdated, I still like modeling in Lightwave.

I still the think the goal should be Infiltration into the mainstream.
No large studio will just stop using what they know works for them,
but they'll always try and save a dollar.

Generalist Apps are done I think. Like, whats the point in trying to
create sculpting tools in Lightwave, the Bar is already too high with
apps like ZBrush and 3Dcoat.

And if your thinking, "well not everyone can afford ZBrush and other Apps".
I'd say, One man teams should not be competing with Studio Quality.

Need to focus on their Strengths.

But before all that, We need a flexible Modern UI.

Rayek
03-20-2019, 01:47 AM
@VonBon

Modeling hasn't been Lightwave's strength for a very long time now, and it is lagging (far) behind all other main 3d packages.
Sculpting is an integral part of all competitors (except Max, I believe), and having the option to sculpt (outside of dedicated apps like 3dCoat and zBrush) is that it is extra-ordinarily handy for all sorts of modeling jobs. Often there is just no need to rely on a powerhouse like zBrush. No need to switch software, just sculpt away in your DCC 3d generalist app, and done. Super handy. In a unified app, of course.

No, a good sculpting mode or tool set is part of a common modeling toolset now. I use it all the time for small jobs where other approaches are too slow or inefficient. If Lightwave hopes to compete in terms of modeling ever again, it will need to be integrated somehow. They already have Chronosculpt. They have the tech. But the LW dev team either hasn't had time to integrate it, or management decided it is not worth the effort at this point for some reason.

I do agree television and broadcast VFX seems to vibe well with Lightwave. Perhaps Newtek should just focus on Layout alone from now on (which they have pretty much done anyway in the past decade or longer). But that would probably drive LW users to other packages. So modeling needs a heavy update. A considerable one.

In the end these discussions always seem to steer us to one best solution: unification. Just unify the damn app. Focus on broadcast graphics/VFX. Make modeling non-destructive. Add something like a Mograph derivative. Leech unhappy C4D users - C4D is way too expensive for many.

PS and rendering needs a GPU option to be viewed again as a major strength in Lightwave.

vncnt
03-20-2019, 04:52 AM
...
PS and rendering needs a GPU option to be viewed again as a major strength in Lightwave.
Maybe not exactly what you're asking for, but I would be happy if NT would enhance the OpenGL Preview rendering:

step 1 - Make the Preview rendering screensize/aspect resistant so that it doesn't mess up the output file (diagonal distortion).
step 2 - Add settings for resolution, non-YUV codecs, image export, and a single checkbox to remove all screen elements that do not belong in the output.
step 3 - Export the transparency channel.

gar26lw
03-20-2019, 05:13 AM
i think id like the old renderer added in with pbr shaders.

hrgiger
03-20-2019, 06:42 AM
They need to focus on their strengths, Modeling and Rendering.




Really? Modeling? Have you seen what else is out there?

And rendering used to be LightWave's strength. But there are too many great third party rendering solutions except to those who may be on a budget who want an all in one tool.

gar26lw
03-20-2019, 06:52 AM
Really? Modeling? Have you seen what else is out there?

And rendering used to be LightWave's strength. But there are too many great third party rendering solutions except to those who may be on a budget who want an all in one tool.

I think fast, fast, fast is what it needs. simple yet effective, with nodal complexity in the background, if needed. I think a thread on how to achieve fast workflow would be a good topic..

here's one :)

https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?159521-how-to-achieve-fast-workflow-in-LW-2019-what-features-would-you-want&p=1567336#post1567336

Marander
03-20-2019, 07:24 AM
@VonBon

Modeling hasn't been Lightwave's strength for a very long time now, and it is lagging (far) behind all other main 3d packages.
Sculpting is an integral part of all competitors (except Max, I believe), and having the option to sculpt (outside of dedicated apps like 3dCoat and zBrush) is that it is extra-ordinarily handy for all sorts of modeling jobs. Often there is just no need to rely on a powerhouse like zBrush. No need to switch software, just sculpt away in your DCC 3d generalist app, and done. Super handy. In a unified app, of course.

No, a good sculpting mode or tool set is part of a common modeling toolset now. I use it all the time for small jobs where other approaches are too slow or inefficient. If Lightwave hopes to compete in terms of modeling ever again, it will need to be integrated somehow. They already have Chronosculpt. They have the tech. But the LW dev team either hasn't had time to integrate it, or management decided it is not worth the effort at this point for some reason.

I do agree television and broadcast VFX seems to vibe well with Lightwave. Perhaps Newtek should just focus on Layout alone from now on (which they have pretty much done anyway in the past decade or longer). But that would probably drive LW users to other packages. So modeling needs a heavy update. A considerable one.

In the end these discussions always seem to steer us to one best solution: unification. Just unify the damn app. Focus on broadcast graphics/VFX. Make modeling non-destructive. Add something like a Mograph derivative. Leech unhappy C4D users - C4D is way too expensive for many.

PS and rendering needs a GPU option to be viewed again as a major strength in Lightwave.

I agree to parts (specially focus on Layout only) but MoGraph I would say forget it. The C4D MoGraph Module was introduced 13 years ago and has constantly been improved every year since then. I cannot imagine Cinema users even with old versions want move from this unified, stable and easy-to-use system to LightWave. Instead some more technical users seem to add Houdini to their toolset and can use the integrated Houdini Engine, some consider Blender 2.8 because of Eevee and the updated UI.

If NewTek manages to finally make the UI and UX more user friendly (specially for new users), including optional industry standard navigation, new users from all areas might add LightWave if it offers unique features for VFX or character animation for example.

LW 2019 seems to be a good start with improved Undo, openVDB, procedural / nodal animation and displacement, as well as the new 2018+ render engine but even these new features still lack behind other implementations.

What it needs is something really unique in my opinion to stand out but MoGraph seems impossible for me.

A good example is the Unreal Engine integration. Others have it too but I think LW's is done best currently.

souzou
03-20-2019, 08:50 AM
I'd say if there is any gap in the market at the moment, it's as an easy bridge to realtime. There seems to be a need for that in arch-vis & tv at least, VR/AR, plus of course it makes things easier for games production. If you can become known as the go-to app for that I think you can build from that niche.

Improved UI and UX (eg. dockable panels), better geo performance, easier character animation tools/workflows would really help.

VonBon
03-21-2019, 10:12 AM
The point I was trying to make is that I believe,
the Dev Team could design these things better
than the competition if they focused on them.

VonBon
03-21-2019, 10:51 AM
As for the Sculpting, just about every Studio is using an App
designed for sculpting, mainly ZBrush. Why waste the resources,
when they could be used in other areas. The Goal is to get more
Studios using LightWave, to possibly get more Artist making stuff
with LightWave and making more money to have access to more
resources to expand the program.

Ztreem
03-21-2019, 11:29 AM
You can also say it like this.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for modeling, mainly other apps than LW.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for animation, mainly other apps than LW.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for rendering, mainly other apps than LW.
Why waste the resources?

Tim Parsons
03-21-2019, 12:02 PM
You can also say it like this.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for modeling, mainly other apps than LW.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for animation, mainly other apps than LW.
Just about every studio is using an app designed for rendering, mainly other apps than LW.
Why waste the resources?

Wow - that's cold. :)

prometheus
03-21-2019, 02:15 PM
@VonBon

Modeling hasn't been Lightwave's strength for a very long time now, and it is lagging (far) behind all other main 3d packages.
Sculpting is an integral part of all competitors (except Max, I believe), and having the option to sculpt (outside of dedicated apps like 3dCoat and zBrush) is that it is extra-ordinarily handy for all sorts of modeling jobs. Often there is just no need to rely on a powerhouse like zBrush. No need to switch software, just sculpt away in your DCC 3d generalist app, and done. Super handy. In a unified app, of course.

No, a good sculpting mode or tool set is part of a common modeling toolset now. I use it all the time for small jobs where other approaches are too slow or inefficient. If Lightwave hopes to compete in terms of modeling ever again, it will need to be integrated somehow. They already have Chronosculpt. They have the tech. But the LW dev team either hasn't had time to integrate it, or management decided it is not worth the effort at this point for some reason.

I do agree television and broadcast VFX seems to vibe well with Lightwave. Perhaps Newtek should just focus on Layout alone from now on (which they have pretty much done anyway in the past decade or longer). But that would probably drive LW users to other packages. So modeling needs a heavy update. A considerable one.

In the end these discussions always seem to steer us to one best solution: unification. Just unify the damn app. Focus on broadcast graphics/VFX. Make modeling non-destructive. Add something like a Mograph derivative. Leech unhappy C4D users - C4D is way too expensive for many.

PS and rendering needs a GPU option to be viewed again as a major strength in Lightwave.


Since Lightwave seem to have Vibed well with broadcast tv, and set extensions it seems...I think camera tracking within Lightwave should be a thing that would enhance itīs position in relation to that.
But as I am aware of..there isnīt much of it internally, not sure how it competes against blenders ...I still have loads to learn on this area.
But maybe if they could get that going within Lightwave, and at the same time expand and revive neuron motion to be closely connected to lightwave even more and camera tracking, they could have something
really sweet and with production value....just guessing:D

erikals
03-21-2019, 03:50 PM
LightWave shouldn't copy Blender,
or other apps,

LightWave should find its own niche, whatever that is.

prometheus
03-21-2019, 04:07 PM
LightWave shouldn't copy Blender,
or other apps,

LightWave should find its own niche, whatever that is.

What niche, making people frustrated:D:devil:..you said whatever that is, and its a win scenario :)

sorry ...couldnīt resist, I urge the lightwave people to just laugh at it, and especially the Lightwave and Newtek team..itīs not That serious.

Canīt say I can agree with not copy Blender...so much in this industry requires similar tech, but with slightly different approach..as well in workflow.
I would say copying blender stuff may be Essential to catch up and go beyond.

I think the VDB stuff The lightwave team has started to implement, which may be something they can expand on, do it good and perhaps better than other software..and in the future maybe take a leading role, but if they decide...we have done enough for a while now, letīs go for modeler now and drop VDB, then they get nowhere on that area, so that is the problem when we already know they have to work on modeling tools.
Guess itīs about resources.

To me the new VDB stuff looks interesting and cool for sure, but slow, and with convoluted workflow..that could improve in speed, and get consolidated in to VFX tools for converting stuff, or dragging pre-made setups to the scene from a shelf ala houdini.

erikals
03-21-2019, 07:09 PM
Canīt say I can agree with not copy Blender...
i meant of course, to not copy the entire Blender workflow.
by all means, STEAL.

pbaroque20
03-22-2019, 08:08 AM
The fact is, Lightwave, being a generalist tool, could go in any direction. But there are no-brainer strategies for Newtek, like implementing broadcasting, "mograph" style capabilities to connect somehow with Tricaster. On that note, gaming tools would seem to be something that would easily follow, along with an improvement to modeler. I agree with some people that 2019 is a good step forward, but it feels like it's actually 2018.5 since modeler was barely worked on. OpenVDB authoring is a big sell for me, and connection to Unreal. Still, LW just needs focus and I believe it's getting there. I'm really crossing my fingers for LW 2020 comprehensive Modeler improvements.

jasonwestmas
05-31-2019, 11:33 PM
I'd rather Lightwave actually specialize in something.

Curly_01
06-01-2019, 05:02 AM
I don't understand why people are constantly bashing on Lightwave. My personal opinion is Lightwave is very fast and has a lot of strong points. IK Booster, Spline IK, Chronosculpt, the bandsaw tool, genoma, it does fast weight mapping - I've tried it in other applications and in other applications you spend more time getting a weight map right. I also don't understand why everyone is bashing about the layout - modeller and not one application thing. For me that is just a strong point for a clean workflow, you prepare your model in modeller and get it on stage in layout. They've made fbx alembic and mdd and collada work. For me the combo Lightwave - Houdini is very nice, because they are on the opposite of the spectrum. There are things that you can do very fast in Lightwave 80% of the work and 20% of the specialised vfx animation you could do in Houdini. I wouldn't like to model in Houdini although it's procedural, it's like cleaning your toilet with a toothbrush. Lightwave has it's strong points and let's keep it that way, they made it 'play well with other applications'. I honestly don't understand why everyone is always complaining. I would like to see TAFA facial animation in Lightwave that would be nice. That's my humble opinion.

erikals
06-01-2019, 05:39 AM
I would like to see TAFA facial animation in Lightwave that would be nice. That's my humble opinion.
i asked Mac but he said he was more interested in having it Stand-alone.
certainly wouldn't hurt for them to ask though.

try >
https://i.imgur.com/DyMMm6f.png

prometheus
06-01-2019, 07:46 AM
For me...focus on getting modeling tools in to layout as well as improving already existing modelling tools, then improving undo and UI.
By modeling tools in layout I also want them to focus on airbrush and paint tools in Layout that works for most tools across the layout vfx platform, foremost weight painting and sculpting (metamorphic is a start..but isnīt on par with blender sculpting which can create new dynatopo) metamorphic has a nice thing about mixing a sculpted area with with procedurals in easy ways.

Weight emission for fluids and particles needs a connection to all paint tools.
These airbrush tools need to be able to paint instances, sculpt brushing of hair, paint maps for part destruction, and fluid and emitter emission.

Then of course, the render speedn in cpu needs improving, especially with the hair system..perhaps after all look in to GPU solution natively.

Ops..I read the topic wrong, itīs w what market, not what development phase they need to focus on...sorry.

Ryan Roye
06-01-2019, 08:37 AM
To answer the question:

Lightwave is and will always be a generalists's application. You use it when you are touching many different disciplines in the 3d industry, but are not committed to any single one.

That said,

Lightwave can't pick a market and go after it because it has no effective means of marketing its content in its current state. In order for that to happen, things need to change:

- Lightwave cannot depend solely on existing user sales like it has over the last 10 years. It will never grow this way.

- They need a content developer who can readily make learning materials, examples, marketing, etc that clearly, effectively demonstrates the strengths of the application. Lightwave has always been about immediacy, and that should be made very clear when publishing content. William Vaughan left some big shoes to fill.

- They need a revenue stream outside of their main product. They should be offering content packs and other stuff guaranteed to work with Lightwave directly through their website.

erikals
06-01-2019, 09:09 AM
William Vaughan
i'd love to see someone like Vaughan demo-ing LightWave again.

also, good LightWave upgrades would work as marketing, with help from NT of course.

raw-m
06-01-2019, 11:41 AM
Don’t think it needs to concentrate on a market, but what it it does need is regular, open communication......... and loads of enthusiasm! Love these dev talks, a real passion for the software which can only nurture confidence and strengthen brand:


https://youtu.be/IJ8iMb9WBKo

Chris S. (Fez)
06-01-2019, 12:27 PM
I think it's going to take a significant Modeler update to once again effectively market Lightwave as a modern viable jack-of-all-trades tool.

If integration is not happening then LW needs consistently vastly improved viewport performance in Layout. It is super fast for some things and super slow for others. Marketing 2020 would be so much easier if it finally shows off the unique advantages of the new Hydra engine.

And a variety of real time rendering improvements, some hopefully derived from Vizrt tech. The competition for VPR has exploded.

And maybe open the Beta. Blender is open. Autodesk is open for current customers. Get your customers involved and excited about the future.

Marander
06-01-2019, 12:32 PM
I don't understand why people are constantly bashing on Lightwave. My personal opinion is Lightwave is very fast and has a lot of strong points. IK Booster, Spline IK, Chronosculpt, the bandsaw tool, genoma, it does fast weight mapping - I've tried it in other applications and in other applications you spend more time getting a weight map right. I also don't understand why everyone is bashing about the layout - modeller and not one application thing. For me that is just a strong point for a clean workflow, you prepare your model in modeller and get it on stage in layout. They've made fbx alembic and mdd and collada work. For me the combo Lightwave - Houdini is very nice, because they are on the opposite of the spectrum. There are things that you can do very fast in Lightwave 80% of the work and 20% of the specialised vfx animation you could do in Houdini. I wouldn't like to model in Houdini although it's procedural, it's like cleaning your toilet with a toothbrush. Lightwave has it's strong points and let's keep it that way, they made it 'play well with other applications'. I honestly don't understand why everyone is always complaining. I would like to see TAFA facial animation in Lightwave that would be nice. That's my humble opinion.

1) Very fast --> wrong, it's the slowest 3D application I use. Slow OpenGL viewport, slow deformations, slow render. Poly modeling is also not faster than others (except Houdini which is not a good example for modeling).

2) IK Booster, seriously? The most unintuitive character animation implementation I've seen ever seen.

3) Bandsaw? So outdated and horrible to use. What about a universal Knife tool like in other applications with realtime preview that can optionally re-use and distribute cuts much easier, respects loops, curvature, tension, symmetry, poles, loop ranges, quantization, profiles etc. Oh and a Knife tool that replaces the various redundant tools like Knife, Cut, Julienne, BandSaw, Slice, Divide, QuickSaw, QuickCut etc etc.

4) Chronosculpt? A very fast geometry engine but a separate product that never got any feature enhancement from its initial functionality which is very basic. NewTek claimes that the Hydra engine is now part of LW but there is really nothing to see from that. The "new" geometry engine in LW2018+ is very disappointing.

5) Genoma, well it would be ok if implemented in Layout. Rhiggit is better but other rigging tools I know are much more user friendly.

6) Weight Painting in LW? Other applications have auto character weighting and much better painting tools, available everywhere in the application. Layout still has no Weight Paint functionality that actually works out of the box, the one in Metamorphic is too slow to use (surprise, surprise).

7) Alembic? How have they made it work when it's still broken in LW? Have you ever used it? Besides that other implementations offer interpolation, sub frame motion blur, retiming and many other features in import and export.

8) FBX? Several issues with importing FBX rigged meshes that work fine in other applications. Again, other applications offer many more features like curves, markers, instances, substances, LOD etc.

These are just some points you brought up, there are much bigger ones that are way more problematic in LW.

Maybe you understand now why people are complaining. :foreheads

prometheus
06-01-2019, 12:54 PM
Not sure people have posted this on the forums..MR rid stuff, more advanced camera tracking in Lightwave perhaps would be nice to get more jobs done quickly.

Some showcase from What David Ridlen did with the Oscar winning movie "The Green Book"
Subtle "you could never have guessed it is an CGI effect"is the key..

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2019/05/making-invisible-visual-effects-for-academy-best-picture-green-book/

Hail
06-01-2019, 03:15 PM
Modeling and weight painting in cinema sucks!
Those are some of the things I miss from modeler.
It's so much easier and straight forward to do in lightwave.

prometheus
06-01-2019, 04:23 PM
Modeling and weight painting in cinema sucks!
Those are some of the things I miss from modeler.
It's so much easier and straight forward to do in lightwave.

Modeling weight paint, quite nice..but crucial things ar missing, and that is weight emission for particles and fluids, as well a native way to paint it nicely in layout, thatīs why I love it in blender "Layout and modeling"
just paint on your character where you want your fire to burn, and voila...features not possible with native Lightwave.
Letīs start by adding it in Layout without extra addons, and then send a notification to Jascha that it is there ..then he need to work on the weigh emission option, then we need to get the latest tfd build.
Or lets urge for the Lightwave team to do syncronized development natively so the tools work together properly.

erikals
06-01-2019, 05:12 PM
6 months to go...

LightWave 2020

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif

wesleycorgi
06-01-2019, 07:27 PM
I like that they have made some commitment to Unreal. I would also like to see s9me seamless integration with Web-based tech like ThreeJS and BabylonJS.

Ryan Roye
06-02-2019, 06:17 AM
1) Very fast --> wrong, it's the slowest 3D application I use. Slow OpenGL viewport, slow deformations, slow render. Poly modeling is also not faster than others (except Houdini which is not a good example for modeling).

You should use streaming geometry acceleration for animation instead of buffered (GL display options) when animating content.


2) IK Booster, seriously? The most unintuitive character animation implementation I've seen ever seen.

The UI lacks discoverability. The point of IKBooster is to allow the user complete freedom when creating a rig. Changing it in the middle of your animation is actually possible due to the way it works... it just has some tradeoffs to allow you to do that.


4) Chronosculpt? A very fast geometry engine but a separate product that never got any feature enhancement from its initial functionality which is very basic. NewTek claimes that the Hydra engine is now part of LW but there is really nothing to see from that. The "new" geometry engine in LW2018+ is very disappointing.

Just use metamorphic, its basically the same thing in all but the most extreme scenarios without the need to bake everything into mdd


5) Genoma, well it would be ok if implemented in Layout. Rhiggit is better but other rigging tools I know are much more user friendly.

I guess the developers of genoma didn't know how to implement scaling, sculpting and positioning in layout, which is why they went with modeler. I agree it was a bad decision.


6) Weight Painting in LW? Other applications have auto character weighting and much better painting tools, available everywhere in the application. Layout still has no Weight Paint functionality that actually works out of the box, the one in Metamorphic is too slow to use (surprise, surprise).

Yeah, after about 20,000 polygons weight painting in metamorphic stops becoming responsive. The weight painter tool from 3rd powers is a complete toolset; no one should be doing rigging work of any kind without it. My theory as to why it's slow is that its trying to update the viewport *while* you sculpt, instead of only applying the deformation after you let go of the mouse button. It would make a huge difference computationally. It's worth noting that this is the way the 3rd powers tool works.


7) Alembic? How have they made it work when it's still broken in LW? Have you ever used it? Besides that other implementations offer interpolation, sub frame motion blur, retiming and many other features in import and export.

If something is broken it should be reported. As far as basic functionality goes I've been using it for a few years without issue.

No number of new features are going to make people flock to LW... because LW has no idea how to market its software and it was painfully obvious in the 2018 release. The only thing I liked about their publication was that they got users to pitch in, but they really need someone with broad knowledge of Lightwave who is capable of making high quality video content on a regular basis.

hrgiger
06-02-2019, 07:18 AM
No number of new features are going to make people flock to LW... because LW has no idea how to market its software and it was painfully obvious in the 2018 release. The only thing I liked about their publication was that they got users to pitch in, but they really need someone with broad knowledge of Lightwave who is capable of making high quality video content on a regular basis.

That first part is so true. Features aren't what LW is missing either(Nor is it the problem with modeler as I mentioned in my video on it last year). At least in terms of your basic feature list of things you'd expect of a generalist application. And they could add 10,000 more features to version 2020 and it still wouldn't bring people back or attract people to LW. And yes, the lack of marketing or supporting the product doesn't help things. People largely didn't leave because lack of features, they left because of the fundamental way LW works and how it has failed to overcome its limitations as a split app all these years. You hit walls in LW plain and simple. At least when Rob was here, we had the general notion that overcoming these limitations was the goal. Now we have no idea what the plan is.
Speaking of marketing, I see the newsletter is recycled news of the 2019 release. They used to have someone that did great on the newsletter so NT put a stop to that.

prometheus
06-02-2019, 08:54 AM
No number of new features are going to make people flock to LW... because LW has no idea how to market its software and it was painfully obvious in the 2018 release. The only thing I liked about their publication was that they got users to pitch in, but they really need someone with broad knowledge of Lightwave who is capable of making high quality video content on a regular basis.

I personally donīt think that sounds right to 100%...maybe 80-90%
If a feature or a couple of features are so innovative..gamechanger, I do believe the word would spread without much marketing at all, the marketing would be taken care of by users recognizing that awesomeness and spread the workd.
If the features are standard or not so innovative, not much will happen as you say.

You could on the other hand try and market it much much more, with standard features that doesnīt really impress, they would still go to the other software that cost less and have more innovative tools.

That said, it needs better marketing..but you also got to have something of pretty good value to market...especially in the competition of free tools that also themself brings on innovative stuff, in a way I really do not see lightwave doing currently.

If I am hard drawing it, I am not comfortable accepting that no features would be able to help market Lightwave, or no Modeling enhancements will, hard drawing it that is.

If I was in charge, I would however Hire you Ryan Roye, for some marketing:) Canīt pay much though:)

Curly_01
06-02-2019, 09:21 AM
It would be nice if we could have Blenders curve and array tools. Instance painting etc...

Chris S. (Fez)
06-02-2019, 11:45 AM
Speed and quality over quantity. Performance and workflow should be priority.

Pipelines with multiple programs are now more common than not. The Hub needs to go or it needs next generation speed, stability and capability. Integration while not losing the immediacy of Lightwave Modeler would be nice. There is a reason power modelers like Lewis still use Lightwave Modeler. There is a reason some artists are frustrated and leave Lightwave for certain projects. Namely, the advantages of confident, fast, click-efficient immediate modeling are increasingly outweighed by the flexibility and freedom of procedural and non-destructive tools/workflows.

Maya has an Immediate mode. LW group could do something similar. Instead of Core's cumbersome stack there could be a modifier stack that allows straightforward strategic stacks. Again, something akin to the Edit Poly Max modifier would be a great fit for LW. Thickener modifier. Smooth modifier. Push modifier. Mirror, Copy and Array modifiers. Keep it simple and fun to use. Quality over quantity. A selection modifier with all sorts of options and works directly with Vertex Maps (ie. Embedded data).

Perhaps a nodal network instead of a stack would be more powerful and consistent in terms of LW workflows. Nodes = Modifiers.

Ryan Roye is the obvious choice for marketing but I imagine he might have to cover VizRT tools too.

Marander
06-02-2019, 12:28 PM
@Ryan, thanks for your answer. Good to see that you as very experienced LW user share some opinion about limitations and design choices in LW.

About the streaming geometry acceleration thanks, I will try this out when back from vacation.

About the Alembic issues in LW: in my opinion it's broken because it doesn't support changing geometry which is required for most particle / fluid animations, one if the key applications of the Alembic format. Additional to that it's missing interpolation and retiming features which other applications provide.

Chuck
06-03-2019, 10:27 AM
Speaking of marketing, I see the newsletter is recycled news of the 2019 release. They used to have someone that did great on the newsletter so NT put a stop to that.

The current newsletter is being done the same way as the previous editors did it - make it up from stories published on the web site since the previous edition of the newsletter. For the moment we're quarterly instead of monthly. Nothing was recycled - we had not done mailings specific to the 2019.0.3 release nor the LightWave Bridge plugin update for UE 4.22, so those were timely for people who do not regularly visit the web site nor our social media - which is most of the mailing list. The coverage of David Ridlen's work on Oscar Best Picture Green Book seems still timely and provides the user coverage story typical for a newsletter issue. The issue rounds out with LightWave 2019 tutorials, including one curated from Mark Warner's YouTube channel. We look forward to picking up more from Mark and others. A lot of interesting videos on LightWave 2019 are showing up.

prometheus
06-03-2019, 11:31 AM
The current newsletter is being done the same way as the previous editors did it - make it up from stories published on the web site since the previous edition of the newsletter. For the moment we're quarterly instead of monthly. Nothing was recycled - we had not done mailings specific to the 2019.0.3 release nor the LightWave Bridge plugin update for UE 4.22, so those were timely for people who do not regularly visit the web site nor our social media - which is most of the mailing list. The coverage of David Ridlen's work on Oscar Best Picture Green Book seems still timely and provides the user coverage story typical for a newsletter issue. The issue rounds out with LightWave 2019 tutorials, including one curated from Mark Warner's YouTube channel. We look forward to picking up more from Mark and others. A lot of interesting videos on LightWave 2019 are showing up.


Chuck..I must be looking at the wrong place (youtube) and since I do not have facebook i may miss out on some stuff I reckon.
on youtube..my searches for lightwave and lightwave3d yields a result of nothing since a month ago, one explanation could be bad algorithms in youtube itself of course and that is probably it, when I search for mark warner and lightwave in one search string, it comes up of course and that it was published two weeks ago, so something wacko with youtube search filters when I filter by upload date, or maybe mark and others havenīt tagged them properly.

Thanks for the heads up on that by the way, since youtube filtering is messing it up it seems, I wouldnīt have recognizing them..other than the fact that I am prescribing on Markīs channel.

Paint on instances with metamorphic sounds interesting..have to check asap.

beverins
06-04-2019, 08:37 AM
I think the Unreal Engine Bridge is fantastic and VizRT / Newtek need to hammer on that as hard as they can to make it even more fluid.

raymondtrace
06-04-2019, 10:45 AM
...I would also like to see s9me seamless integration with Web-based tech like ThreeJS and BabylonJS.

Be sure to submit feature requests with examples of desired workflows.

Lightwave development may have settled on the Sketchfab output function without being aware of other options or needs.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/new-lightwave-to-sketchfab-plugin-available/

Recently, I've taken LW content into B with the blend4web add-on to show product design previews to clients. I'd prefer a native export from LW. ...However, for this particular application, Sketchfab is probably better as you can prevent the client from swiping the 3D content. With an open standard like ThreeJS, you probably would not want to share any work you want to protect from theft.

3dslider
06-04-2019, 11:12 AM
6 months to go...

LightWave 2020

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif

+100

Need unification, more speed rendering + bright procedural modeling a la houdini !

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