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View Full Version : Lightwave 2019's Best Kept Secret!



brent3d
02-08-2019, 12:14 PM
"One rig to the rule them all"..lol A look at the simply stellar IKFK+ Studios Genoma 2 rig that comes with Lightwave 2019. It allows for IK and FK simultaneously without the need to use blending. It works in Lightwave 2015 and in Motion Mixer with multiple characters!! Simply awesome.

https://youtu.be/-wNx3hhAJt4

robertoortiz
02-08-2019, 12:54 PM
Great post! You should come over to one of our SIGGRAPH meetings.

brent3d
02-08-2019, 01:01 PM
Great post! You should come over to one of our SIGGRAPH meetings.

Sounds good! Forward me info when available.

TheLexx
02-08-2019, 01:15 PM
Fantastic. I'm not a rigger, but am curious why such a "simple rig" was never made before (by a rigging user, not referring to the LW devs here) ? It shows the devs certainly do know a trick when they see it. If this can be combined with the RebelHill face rig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=156&v=sKT9Z9R_jl8), then we are in a great place.

Character animation workflows in Lightwave now have mindbending options with Rhiggit/FaceFactory, IKBooster, Genoma etc - you could have two character animators in LW using completey different workflows. If someone came new into this, I wonder the pros and cons of Albee "vs" RebelHill "vs" Roye "vs" this rig. And it would be great if the Dstorm LW tutorials from Japan could be translated into English to see how our friends are doing things there.

Really great to see your enthusiasm here Brent. Thanks again.

:)

OFF
02-08-2019, 01:23 PM
Thanks!

brent3d
02-08-2019, 01:30 PM
Fantastic. I'm not a rigger, but am curious why such a "simple rig" was never made before (by a rigging user, not referring to the LW devs here) ? It shows the devs certainly do know a trick when they see it. If this can be combined with the RebelHill face rig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=156&v=sKT9Z9R_jl8), then we are in a great place.

Character animation workflows in Lightwave now have mindbending options with Rhiggit/FaceFactory, IKBooster, Genoma etc - you could have two character animators in LW using completey different workflows. If someone came new into this, I wonder the pros and cons of Albee "vs" RebelHill "vs" Roye "vs" this rig. And it would be great if the Dstorm LW tutorials from Japan could be translated into English to see how our friends are doing things there.

Really great to see your enthusiasm here Brent. Thanks again.

:)

Great Lexx, in studio we've always relied on what was the quickest and most user friendly when it came to rigs (since it maybe passed off to others to contribute animations) and Genoma helped greatly in that regard. But IKFK+'s Genoma 2 rig is mind bending! This is not just a Lightwave highlight but an animation rigging highlight. I've never seen a rig do both IK/FK simultaneously without having to use blending before. So for me it's beyond a look what's in LW thing and more like a holy crap look what somebody created for character animation! It's just so simple and elegant (yes elegant) and it works with Motion Mixer...nuff said.

jbrookes
02-08-2019, 01:43 PM
Isn't that sort of the same thing as demoed here in LightWave 6 (except that it's pre-made in 2019)?
https://youtu.be/GR1FfQm5i4g?t=414

brent3d
02-08-2019, 01:58 PM
Isn't that sort of the same thing as demoed here in LightWave 6 (except that it's pre-made in 2019)?
https://youtu.be/GR1FfQm5i4g?t=414

What's old is new. Similar Concept it seems, brilliant execution so try it.

BeeVee
02-08-2019, 05:23 PM
Hey Brent,

Love your enthusiasm, but the rig was given to us to distribute with 2019. It is not yours to give away to anyone that views your video. Please remove it.

All the best,

B

brent3d
02-08-2019, 05:26 PM
Hey Brent,

Love your enthusiasm, but the rig was given to us to distribute with 2019. It is not yours to give away to anyone that views your video. Please remove it.

All the best,

B

Oh that's to bad.

raymondtrace
02-08-2019, 09:14 PM
Oh that's to bad.

How so?

brent3d
02-08-2019, 09:37 PM
How so?

because not being able to share something as simple as a Genoma 2 rig that was previously made by a user is disappointing, but the link was promptly removed as requested and enthusiasm curbed.

OFF
02-08-2019, 09:39 PM
Played a bit with this rig. Very useful. Only one thing "but" - IK controllers followed body main controller all time.

brent3d
02-08-2019, 09:49 PM
Played a bit with this rig. Very useful. Only one thing "but" - IK controllers followed body main controller all time.

You should be able to assign the IK hand goals to a different parent...as well as setup dynamic parenting with them.

OFF
02-08-2019, 10:21 PM
Yes, I thought about it, it would just be more convenient to have a controller rig inside for that.

brent3d
02-08-2019, 10:22 PM
Yes, I thought about it, it would just be more convenient to have a controller rig inside for that.

yeah, gotcha!

BeeVee
02-09-2019, 01:12 AM
Oh that's to bad.

Thanks for removing the link. It did also mean that I updated the docs thanks to the added info I got from your vid, so double thanks for that ;)

All the best,

B

UnCommonGrafx
02-09-2019, 04:52 AM
Good conversations being stoked.

Appreciate your contributions, Brent. You are bringing folks out to share their knowledge.

Marander
02-09-2019, 05:26 AM
Hey Brent,

Love your enthusiasm, but the rig was given to us to distribute with 2019. It is not yours to give away to anyone that views your video. Please remove it.

All the best,

B

I understand it is not allowed to share part of a product anywhere, that's normal for most commercial products.

However anybody can just download the LW2019 demo and use the rig in LW2015 for example.

RebelHill
02-09-2019, 05:50 AM
am curious why such a "simple rig" was never made before

They have been... but the simpler a rig is, the fewer kinds of "operations" it's capable of. More functionality requires more complexity.


Only one thing "but" - IK controllers followed body main controller all time.

This being the case of reduced functionality here. You can't "IK-stick" the hands to say a table top, while the body is otherwise squirming.


You should be able to assign the IK hand goals to a different parent...as well as setup dynamic parenting with them.

Yep... at which point you've now created a IKFK switch system, and the "all in one" nature of the rig is gone.

....

Basically, it all comes down to how one wants or needs to animate. You can, for instance, just create a full FK rig, no fancy controllers, nothing. Piece of cake to make, piece of cake to pose, and any pose you can imagine is possible to set. But try to animate a walk cycle with that, and its a HUGE pain, because you're constantly having to "fudge" the legs about to make the feet stick to the floor as the body moves over the top, since there's no IK.

Looking at the description, this IKIF rig has come from a Japanese studio pipeline, where I imagine the end product is cell shaded/anime style work. If you look at that animation style, you'll see that it's mostly about creating readable poses, and that the "technically precise" aspects of contact, footslide, etc, which we're used to in many 3D settings, are often not so important. In such work, a rig that is quick and easy to pose and create "body language" with, would be more important than one that allowed for "realistic spacially detailed movement".

Obvs, I cant say for sure, because I dont know this fellas work or workflow, and it'd be really interesting to hear from the rig's creator (who's posted in other threads here) about his workflow in animation, and how this style of rigging suits that kind of animation/motion and gives workflow efficiency under the conditions and demands of their particular work.

And yes, Ive seen his "English not very good" sig... but that's OK... give us some visual demos and the best explanation you can manage and we can all manage to figure it out amongst ourselves together.

よろしくお願いします, matey!

gar26lw
02-09-2019, 07:06 AM
good reply

raymondtrace
02-09-2019, 09:44 AM
...However anybody can just download the LW2019 demo and use the rig in LW2015 for example.There is a big difference. NewTek controls who gets the demo. We call that a copyright. Artists should figure out what that means. :)

Marander
02-09-2019, 12:21 PM
There is a big difference. NewTek controls who gets the demo. We call that a copyright. Artists should figure out what that means. :)

Exactly. That's why I said it's usually not allowed to share part of a (closed source) product anywhere.

brent3d
02-09-2019, 02:17 PM
Good conversations being stoked.

Appreciate your contributions, Brent. You are bringing folks out to share their knowledge.

That was the whole point:D

hypersuperduper
02-10-2019, 05:08 AM
It looks from the vid like the rig is more or less an Ik rig that is parented to an fk rig. Is this correct?

brent3d
02-10-2019, 07:12 AM
It looks from the vid like the rig is more or less an Ik rig that is parented to an fk rig. Is this correct?

Still going through it in Genoma, there's a little jujitsu going on than that I believe.

RebelHill
02-10-2019, 08:08 AM
It looks from the vid like the rig is more or less an Ik rig that is parented to an fk rig. Is this correct?

Basically, yes. There's an Fk set of controllers that represent the joints/pivots, under which is parented the IK goal, and the rig itself operates to this goal... it's pretty much as in the attached scene.

hypersuperduper
02-10-2019, 09:09 AM
I thought so. I could tell among other things by by the way the elbow didn’t hyperextend under fk controls when rotated backwards. I recognized that immediately because I sort of use a variation of this setup myself a lot. Although instead of having the ikgoals directly parented I have them same as item constrained to nulls that are parented. This lets me do ikfk switching/blending and also allows me to use use limits or nodal motion on the goals for stuff like fk animating a run cycle while keeping the feet from passing through the floor. Only works with simple two joint limbs but that tends to be enough for me.

brent3d
02-10-2019, 10:58 AM
Basically, yes. There's an Fk set of controllers that represent the joints/pivots, under which is parented the IK goal, and the rig itself operates to this goal... it's pretty much as in the attached scene.

So to make it a predefined rig to natively edit in Modeler the trick is setting it in the Genoma Advanced Properties, or is there another way?

RebelHill
02-10-2019, 11:22 AM
I guess. I don't really use it.

brent3d
02-10-2019, 12:31 PM
I guess. I don't really use it.

Thus the jujitsu.

brent3d
02-11-2019, 09:27 AM
I just discovered that the new 2018 / 2019 *.lwo model format is not compatible with the Genoma Presets Viewer. The Genoma Presets Viewer can only display *.lwo formats up to 2015 version. So the viewer will not read rigs saved in 2018 / 2019 only 2015 and of course 2015 cannot rigs in the Viewer made from 2018 / 2019. This is a big issue.

So the IK/FK+ rig was made in LW 2015 as were all the rigs shipped with LW 2018 / 2019, as I suspected. No update to the Genoma System at all not even to make the Viewer compatible with the newly changed object format? It's not a bug and isn't good at all.

JohnMarchant
02-11-2019, 10:16 AM
Hope you have flagged ths with support.

brent3d
02-11-2019, 10:42 AM
Hope you have flagged ths with support.

You gotta be joking, this exists in both 2018 and 2019.

raymondtrace
02-11-2019, 11:34 AM
You gotta be joking, this exists in both 2018 and 2019.

What does that mean?

Why wouldn't you report?

brent3d
02-11-2019, 11:53 AM
What does that mean?

Why wouldn't you report?

They know now from my correspondence with someone representing Newtek. Outside of that though if you've gone two whole versions with a newly changed *.lwo format and haven't made it compatible with an obvious and important feature that depends on it, then it's no longer the users responsibility to report since it is not a bug, but it is the developments responsibility complete and finish already shipped product.

BeeVee
02-11-2019, 03:38 PM
Interesting though that no-one noticed and reported in that year and a little bit's time...

B

brent3d
02-11-2019, 03:45 PM
Interesting though that no-one noticed and reported in that year and a little bit's time...

B

I hope we agree that it should have been caught during BETA testing since this is 2 whole version numbers down the line now, correct?

ernesttx
02-11-2019, 03:54 PM
I'll check tonight. I seemed to recall I didn't encounter this when I was moving some Genoma rigs around from an earlier or newer version of LW to whichever current version I was on at the time.

If I recall correctly, I was looking for a Nevron Motion rig (maybe the bvh one) and moved it into the folder and was able to view it and use it. But, I've slept since then. I test it tonight.

erikals
02-11-2019, 04:01 PM
https://i.imgur.com/uyEQZSe.png

yeah, strange it wasn't caught during Beta. but it happens i guess.

BeeVee
02-11-2019, 04:11 PM
I hope we agree that it should have been caught during BETA testing since this is 2 whole version numbers down the line now, correct?

Actually, it was as much a dig at LightWave's general users who outnumber the beta testers by a significant amount (more than 100:1?), yet said nothing.

B

ernesttx
02-11-2019, 05:41 PM
Just tested. Sent in bug report. No big deal, as you can save Genoma to 2015 version and they show up in Viewer. I'm sure LW will update accordingly.

Lightwolf
02-19-2019, 05:41 AM
I hope we agree that it should have been caught during BETA testing since this is 2 whole version numbers down the line now, correct?

Never assume anything, always report any issue you encounter. That goes for third party products as well. :)

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
02-19-2019, 06:16 AM
Here's the same rig setup in Modo. IK/FK with no blending.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpVLkGM3iRI&feature=youtu.be

RebelHill
02-19-2019, 07:36 AM
Here's the same rig setup in Modo.

That's not really the same idea, it's different. Important question is, how does the key interpolation work? Does the chain respond to the keyed position of the goal, or does the goal go with the FK interpolation of the joints?

hrgiger
02-19-2019, 07:47 AM
From what I understand Craig, the interpolation works off what was last manipulated. There's ways to fudge it, but it's not the optimal workflow.

RebelHill
02-19-2019, 07:57 AM
Ok... so it IS switched, its just auto switched. A nice idea in some respects, until you come up against a time where you're wanting an absolute IK lockoff, but also tweak an inbetween on the FK, and the whole thing changes on you.

Dont get me wrong, I like clever solutions to things, but there is simply no way of having something be both IK and FK at the same time (in terms of interpolation between poses), there MUST be a switch, and to take that control away from the user removes one problem (the need to manage the switch) and replaces it with another (the inability to manage the switch).

gar26lw
02-19-2019, 09:29 AM
if only we had modos gizmos and no gimbal lock-in layout. i’m doing some stuff in there atm and it’s doing my head in!

RebelHill
02-19-2019, 10:25 AM
You ALWAYS have gimbal lock in any 3D app (given that rotations are recorded in euler co-ords, which they pretty much universally are). You can have a "no lock" manipulator/handle (local axis or quatro in layout), but the animation curves are still eulerian. Some apps ofc aloow you to use different rotation methods, such as quaternions, but these just have their own issues (with quats, its getting the intended interpoaltion between keys that needs to be managed). There simply is no "perfect" rotational method, each has its pros and cons.

erikals
02-19-2019, 11:36 AM
i believe RHR Rigging Tutorials has a bit more info on that >
http://rebelhill.net/html/rhr

Hail
02-21-2019, 02:02 AM
Played with this rig for a few days in discovery edition and one of the problems I run into was that, once the ik hand controllers are messed with, the fk controls go out of alignment and their rotations become unpredictable and hard to control.
Is this normal behavior or I'm missing something?

hypersuperduper
02-21-2019, 02:45 AM
The idea is that you need to zero out the ik positions to use pure fk. It’s ik ON TOP OF fk. To get a sort of blending between ik and fk just zero out the ik goal and elbow pole position and rotations over time. Then the ik pose will morph to the fk pose.

You could to a quick modification to the rig in layout to get more conventional ikfk blending if you just duplicate the ik controls and put the duplicates in in world space and same-as-item constrain the originals to the duplicates and lock/hide the originals so you dont accidentally grab them. Then you can use envelopes and an expression/sliders/channelmodifiers or whatever control method floats your boat to blend between world space IK position and FK driven IK positions. The whole process shouldn’t take more than a couple minutes. Not sure if my description made sense tho... maybe I should make a video.

ianr
02-21-2019, 05:29 AM
The idea is that you need to zero out the ik positions to use pure fk. It’s ik ON TOP OF fk. To get a sort of blending between ik and fk just zero out the ik goal and elbow pole position and rotations over time. Then the ik pose will morph to the fk pose.

You could to a quick modification to the rig in layout to get more conventional ikfk blending if you just duplicate the ik controls and put the duplicates in in world space and same-as-item constrain the originals to the duplicates and lock/hide the originals so you dont accidentally grab them. Then you can use envelopes and an expression/sliders/channelmodifiers or whatever control method floats your boat to blend between world space IK position and FK driven IK positions. The whole process shouldn’t take more than a couple minutes. Not sure if my description made sense tho... maybe I should make a video.

H.S.d. A Vid would be good....cheers:jam:

hypersuperduper
02-21-2019, 09:47 AM
I threw together a little youtube vid of how to do modify this rig to use more standard ikfk blending.

Please excuse my sqeaky chair, constant throat-clearing and total lack of any sort of editing.


https://youtu.be/hMXJDgirfpQ
I also address the motion mixer issues that a lot of rigs with IKFKswitches struggle with in lightwave and how to get around it in 2019 using MM_ChannelDriver

ianr
02-21-2019, 10:27 AM
I threw together a little youtube vid of how to do modify this rig to use more standard ikfk blending.

Please excuse my sqeaky chair, constant throat-clearing and total lack of any sort of editing.


https://youtu.be/hMXJDgirfpQ
I also address the motion mixer issues that a lot of rigs with IKFKswitches struggle with in lightwave and how to get around it in 2019 using MM_ChannelDriver


Well just like your tag that is really Duper

Well done & Thanks IanR Craig any comments?

allabulle
02-25-2019, 09:41 AM
I threw together a little youtube vid of how to do modify this rig to use more standard ikfk blending.

I also address the motion mixer issues that a lot of rigs with IKFKswitches struggle with in lightwave and how to get around it in 2019 using MM_ChannelDriver

Thanks! Much appreciated.

gar26lw
02-25-2019, 10:39 AM
awesome tutorial. thanks for making this.

would be great for this stuff to be added to the confluence docs.