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Marander
01-31-2019, 05:42 PM
When trying to use Metamorphic in LW 2019 I encounter several issues

- Performance: Sculpting is very slow even with average meshes like DAZ characters. It works only with a usable speed in the Vertices view mode. Weight, Vertex or Normal Painting is very slow. I don't see any improvement compared with the latest Metamorphic plugin in LW 2018. Not anywhere comparable to other sculpting solutions like Cinema or 3D Coat (or ZBrush of course). Works in Textured mode efficiently only on low poly or simple objects (like Cubes, Planes etc.). I expected the OpenGL performance issues to be fixed in 2019 but it seems the same as in 2018 where deformations are only fast in Vertices mode (which is not very usable).

- Stability: Many random crashes, immediate close of Layout when trying Global Brush in Weight or Normal mode, hang when trying to use on a replaced (null) object with TrueTypeText plugin (it does the first stroke with deformation and then hangs with 100% CPU).

- Usability: Weight Paiting display is not clear. The small dots are difficult to see and in Wireframe or Vertices mode almost not visible (with or without displaying weight values). Extremely slow. Also it seems new Vertex or Normal Maps are only usable / visible when saving and reloading an object (but maybe I'm wrong there).

So, in a nutshell, it works for simple correction morphs on rather low poly objects. Does anyone get better results? Are there support tickets already open for some of these issues or are they known limitations?

Using Win10, LW 2019.0.1, Core i7 12T/6C, 64GB RAM, SSD, GF1080 with latest drivers.

Marander
02-05-2019, 03:56 PM
Am I the only one with performance or stability issues with Metamorphic?

Another bug I found is that LW2019 immediately closes (crashes) when opening a scene where I used the Metamorphic plugin in 2018.

However I figured that the DAZ performance issue in one case was a high poly hair object. After removing the hair object it worked fine.

It seems overall LW has OpenGL / viewport performance issues with high poly count, in Solid, Textured and Wireframe mode with active modifiers or bones. Only Vertices view mode works fast enough. I thought this was fixed in LW2019 (see my bug report for LW2018 below).

(LWB-3970) LightWave Layout viewport is slow with high poly objects and active Deformers in Modifier Stack
--> Improvements in LW2019 have fixed this. Deforming meshes are no longer being rebuilt for OpenGL if the mesh hasn't changed.

What really puzzles me is that a simple deform runs absolutely smooth on LW2018 but is now very slow (unusable) on LW2019.
Test scene is a 800x100x100 segmented cube with a Bend modifier in Layout.

Further tests show that LW2019 is noticeable faster in some scenes (for example having 5 rigged characters / active deformation and landscape elements with a 20Mio poly display limitation). It still has OpenGL lags / hangs from time to time but its usable. In Cinema 4D the same scenes run very smooth with no poly display limitation, OpenGL is multiple times faster compared to LW 2018 or 2019 without any lag.

These kind of heavy scenes are absolutely no issue for other applications. To be honest, I don't see much effect of the LW Hydra engine.

I tend to create heavy scenes and I know there are better ways to do it, using compositing for example.

One thing I enjoy in 3D exploring and refining large scenes I'm working on or built previously and working with high poly objects. These are extreme examples that don't apply everybody's workflow.

I don't mean to bash LW, there are some nice enhancements in 2019 and I started having fun again using it.

Just finished a render combining level set and fog volume elements (level set vdb imported from other app, fog vdb and render in LW2019) which worked very well.

erikals
02-05-2019, 06:05 PM
To be honest, I don't see much effect of the LW Hydra engine.
what i have noticed in several cases is that the code for a tool itself can be slow.
slower speed is not necessarily a result of the underlying code (mesh-engine/sdk)

so, how much faster is LW2018/2019... ?
> i have no idea.

time will tell?

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif

Tim Parsons
02-05-2019, 08:56 PM
I've been mucking about with it for the last hour or and call me impressed. Super easy to use and it has potential to be a pretty darn good sculpting tool but it needs some speed ups for sure. Sculpting is faster than painting - go figure. I'm sculpting/painting a sphere with 262,000 polys and sculpting is pretty smooth - painting on the other hand is not. :)

144024

OFF
02-05-2019, 09:23 PM
Unfortunately, the old problems of Metamorph remained in LW2019. The main thing is a very slow reaction when working with animated characters, especially on the basis of high-poly models a la DAZ 3d.
Yes, you can do modeling on primitives, even with a very dense wire and not to experience hang - but everything changes when you go to work with animated (through the bones) characters. The difference is huge.

CaptainMarlowe
02-05-2019, 10:48 PM
I gave a shot this morning. So far, I didn't encountered any huge problem, but my vision may be biased as I have used MM a lot in 2018 and have somehow gotten used to do's and don'ts of the plug-in.
I sculpted a landscape with no problem. I also created a bunch of correcting morphs on a character deformed through bones/bvh with nevron motion with no big problem either (mid-poly character). I am on a Mac, my main pain with MM right now is not having access to shortcuts, as it requires to click on the dialog box, and not having pen pressure on the tablet.
As for weight and vertex painting, it is very slow yes, it has always been, to a point it is, except for very simple weight maps, almost unusable (I usually use them to create weight maps for distributing instances, it can be used that way if you don' need too much precision, but for a character, it's not there yet, imho).
But I find the sculpting part to work quite great. I especially like the possibility to convert the sculpt as keyframes, morphs or both.

Jarno
02-05-2019, 11:48 PM
The opportunity to add Metamorphic to the LightWave package came quite late in the development cycle for 2019. So there wasn't much time to make any significant changes to it.
I am now in the process of becoming familiar with the code, and seeing what issues we can address quickly in the short term. The discussion here is very helpful in determining where the problems are.

The reason that sculpting is significantly faster than painting is that sculpting sets deformations, while painting modifies UV maps. And unlike deformations, changing UV maps is seen by the system as edits to the underlying LWO. That triggers a somewhat expensive rebuild of the object, quite similar to what happens if you edit the object in Modeler and sync it to Layout.

---JvdL---

Marander
02-06-2019, 12:32 AM
Thanks guys for sharing your experience!

And a special thank you to Jarno for your open words, explanation and development insight. Very encouraging!

CaptainMarlowe
02-06-2019, 01:04 AM
Indeed, thanks for chiming in Jarno.

BeeVee
02-06-2019, 04:31 AM
I would go further and say that painting is based on vertex maps and point painting and is slow by its very nature. This is not painting a surface, but the geometry itself. Try with a low poly object and you'll see how little detail you can get.

B

Tim Parsons
02-06-2019, 06:46 AM
The opportunity to add Metamorphic to the LightWave package came quite late in the development cycle for 2019. So there wasn't much time to make any significant changes to it.
I am now in the process of becoming familiar with the code, and seeing what issues we can address quickly in the short term. The discussion here is very helpful in determining where the problems are.

The reason that sculpting is significantly faster than painting is that sculpting sets deformations, while painting modifies UV maps. And unlike deformations, changing UV maps is seen by the system as edits to the underlying LWO. That triggers a somewhat expensive rebuild of the object, quite similar to what happens if you edit the object in Modeler and sync it to Layout.

---JvdL---

Thanks for the explanation Jarno! BTW great work with the shading system! And the Despike and Denoiser are my new best friends.

alexs3d
02-06-2019, 06:57 AM
The opportunity to add Metamorphic to the LightWave package came quite late in the development cycle for 2019. So there wasn't much time to make any significant changes to it.
I am now in the process of becoming familiar with the code, and seeing what issues we can address quickly in the short term. The discussion here is very helpful in determining where the problems are.

The reason that sculpting is significantly faster than painting is that sculpting sets deformations, while painting modifies UV maps. And unlike deformations, changing UV maps is seen by the system as edits to the underlying LWO. That triggers a somewhat expensive rebuild of the object, quite similar to what happens if you edit the object in Modeler and sync it to Layout.

---JvdL---

Hi Jarno,

nice to here that from a developer and thank you for the info.

next_n00b
02-06-2019, 01:00 PM
..wrong topic

Cageman
02-06-2019, 01:41 PM
Thanks for the explanation Jarno! BTW great work with the shading system! And the Despike and Denoiser are my new best friends.

I'm pretty sure the shading/light/render systems are mostly in Anttis hands now, and not Jarnos. ;)

Tim Parsons
02-06-2019, 02:14 PM
I'm pretty sure the shading/light/render systems are mostly in Anttis hands now, and not Jarnos. ;)

Well whoever - nice job!! :)