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Commander_Chaos
01-28-2019, 09:05 AM
Anybody know how I can upgrade from my ancient copy of Lightwave to LW2015? I only see links on the site for LW2019, which I don't want. I called the sales number and was put on eternal hold.

Qexit
01-28-2019, 09:15 AM
I don't think that is possible. You can only upgrade to the current release which is LW2019.

RPSchmidt
01-28-2019, 09:17 AM
It might be easier to find someone who has a copy of 2015 they don't want any more.

MonroePoteet
01-28-2019, 09:31 AM
IMO, when someone pays for a LW2019 upgrade they should receive an implied upgrade / installation of LW2015.

For anyone (like myself) who is not enamored with the "Brave New World" of Physics Based Rendering, the massive elimination of functionality (that I used ALL the time), bizarre (IMO) implementation of specularity, fireflies in the render, extremely time-consuming learning curves, etc., I think they should automatically get the *option* of installing and using LW2015 (including pointers to the kit, license and content on their Lightwave3D.com account page) to continue and leverage their long-acquired knowledge of "old school" LW techniques as an option as part of their LW2019 upgrade.

I certainly intend on keeping LW2015 installed forever and be dragged into the PBR world at *my* convenience!

As always, just my 2 cents worth!

mTp

Commander_Chaos
01-28-2019, 10:01 AM
I certainly intend on keeping LW2015 installed forever and be dragged into the PBR world at *my* convenience!

mTp

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. For me it puts me in a situation where I need to learn a bunch of new stuff in order to keep using what I have now.

I also have to say that when I talk to potential clients about doing work for them the reaction to "I use Lightwave" is NOT positive. If I have to learn new software is my time really best spent on something I'm having a hard time selling, or should I jump ship?

RPSchmidt
01-28-2019, 11:17 AM
I thought I was the only one who felt that way. For me it puts me in a situation where I need to learn a bunch of new stuff in order to keep using what I have now.

How much you will need to learn about 2019 is really dependent on how much you already know about Lightwave as a whole.

I upgraded at work from Lightwave 9.3 straight to 2018. I was already using nodes for surfacing in my work, and two other 3d programs I use are fully PBR-based, so I already understood the basics of PBR materials.

It wasn't such a huge learning curve to get fantastic results right out of the box. I can honestly tell you that the overall quality of my renders improved with fewer hoops to jump through; it took less time from model to surface to render than it ever did in LW 9.3.

But like I said; there are tons of sources you can purchase a full copy or upgrade of LW2015 from (quick Google search), if that is the direction you want to go in.


I also have to say that when I talk to potential clients about doing work for them the reaction to "I use Lightwave" is NOT positive. If I have to learn new software is my time really best spent on something I'm having a hard time selling, or should I jump ship?

That's something only you can decide.

If you only have experience with Lightwave and no real practical experience with any of the other major 3d applications, then you should expect to spend a considerable amount of time learning as opposed to working. IMO, far more time than you would simply diving into LW2019.

In addition, be aware that the majority of the major 3d applications on the market today are PBR-based. So at a minimum, whether you stay with Lightwave or move to another 3d application, you should learn the basics of PBR materials and lighting.

However, if you have previous experience with another major software application, moving to it and investing in it may worth considering if you think it will improve your marketability.

Only you can decide what the trade-offs are and if the time investment is worth it.

Markc
01-28-2019, 11:21 AM
I suppose it's similar to other software venders, you can usually only purchase the current version.

At the same time I do sympathise with you, I do go back to 2015 quite a lot (during the 2018 cycle especially, I was stuck in my ways with surfacing).
I really need to move on though and try and persist with 2019 as my main build.

Bill Carey
01-28-2019, 11:26 AM
Try calling back and asking if they’ll give access to 2015 as a bridge if you pay for an upgrade. Don’t know if they will, but why not. 2019 is certainly worth the learning curve though.

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. For me it puts me in a situation where I need to learn a bunch of new stuff in order to keep using what I have now.

I also have to say that when I talk to potential clients about doing work for them the reaction to "I use Lightwave" is NOT positive. If I have to learn new software is my time really best spent on something I'm having a hard time selling, or should I jump ship?

Markc
01-28-2019, 11:33 AM
C Chaos, if you get 11.6.3 working, DO NOT upgrade to Mojave.
There is a graphical bug that was fixed in LW2018 and above, and presumably the bug is still present in any older version of LW.

Commander_Chaos
01-28-2019, 04:32 PM
Getting 2015 was a flat "No" and I've never used nodes. I'm not opposed in principle to learning new stuff but I'm in the middle of a series of illustrations that all have to match. I'm also not looking forward to another assault on Lightwave's vertical learning curve.

Tim Parsons
01-28-2019, 08:27 PM
IMO, when someone pays for a LW2019 upgrade they should receive an implied upgrade / installation of LW2015.

The problem with that is support. At some point NT just needs to drop it. Maybe if it's included with an "use at your own peril" clause then that might suffice. :)


For anyone (like myself) who is not enamored with the "Brave New World" of Physics Based Rendering, the massive elimination of functionality (that I used ALL the time), bizarre (IMO) implementation of specularity, fireflies in the render, extremely time-consuming learning curves, etc.,

Fireflies have all but been eliminated in 2019 thanks to NT listening to it's users. I personally will never touch LW2015 again. :) It's really not that hard to learn the new system, besides it really doesn't matter what you dial into the settings, they all look good. :) Just kidding of course, but it is so much easier to get nicer looking surfaces and they look great in all lighting conditions.


I think they should automatically get the *option* of installing and using LW2015 (including pointers to the kit, license and content on their Lightwave3D.com account page) to continue and leverage their long-acquired knowledge of "old school" LW techniques as an option as part of their LW2019 upgrade.


Yes I think that might have been a nice thing to do with the 2018 release, but that's old news now. :)

Tim Parsons
01-28-2019, 08:35 PM
I also have to say that when I talk to potential clients about doing work for them the reaction to "I use Lightwave" is NOT positive.

Why would you even mention that? If they want the files when you are done and you negotiated that in the contract, just inform them that they will get FBX files. If they ask what software you use just tell them you use the latest technology available. Most clients aren't the brightest anyways - if they were they wouldn't be asking for your help.

pauland
01-29-2019, 09:04 AM
Here's a radical idea - they could offer an upgrade to LW2015 for $195 for people who have older versions of LW on the basis that it's no longer in development and that it's sold as-is. If someone then wants to upgrade to LW2019 they could do so for the difference in cost.

This would encourage a lot of people who have older LW versions to get back towards the modern LW world and not have to worry about shelling out $395 in one go.

Newtek picks up a bundle of cash and possibly a further injection of secondary upgrades if it kickstarts LW activity again.

Tim Parsons
01-29-2019, 09:44 AM
Here's a radical idea - they could offer an upgrade to LW2015 for $195 for people who have older versions of LW on the basis that it's no longer in development and that it's sold as-is. If someone then wants to upgrade to LW2019 they could do so for the difference in cost.

This would encourage a lot of people who have older LW versions to get back towards the modern LW world and not have to worry about shelling out $395 in one go.

Newtek picks up a bundle of cash and possibly a further injection of secondary upgrades if it kickstarts LW activity again.

Yeah a little too radical. :) I don't understand why people just wouldn't want the latest. It's better. It's not hard to learn the new stuff and if you don't want to use the nodes to surface you don't have to.

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2019, 09:59 AM
LW 2015 while it's the last release with the old render engine. I find it to be very unstable and glitchy compared to newer releases like 2018 and 2019.

pauland
01-29-2019, 10:04 AM
Yeah a little too radical. :) I don't understand why people just wouldn't want the latest. It's better. It's not hard to learn the new stuff and if you don't want to use the nodes to surface you don't have to.

Well there's a load of LW users out there getting on fine with pretty old versions of LW and don't feel like shelling out $395, or they would just go ahead and upgrade. LW2015 at $195 might tempt them to modernise (a bit ) and re-energise their LW toolset and send money Newtek's way.

My suggestion is to give Newtek a money stream from the stragglers, not from the people who will want to go with the latest who will upgrade anyway.

straggler -> straggler_LW2015 $195
straggler_2015 -> LW2019 $200
LW2015 -> LW2019 $regular
straggler_2015 -> LW2020 $regular

Schwyhart
01-29-2019, 01:31 PM
People had like 4-5 years to get LW2015. If they didn't buy it then, why would they buy it now? Even at a discounted price.

pauland
01-29-2019, 01:37 PM
People had like 4-5 years to get LW2015. If they didn't buy it then, why would they buy it now? Even at a discounted price.

Because it would be an inexpensive way for people to move forward without splashing out $395. There are a lot of LW hobbyists where $395 is a big expense when Blender is an option.

raymondtrace
01-29-2019, 02:53 PM
Did this conversation establish the reason why one needs to upgrade from any old version to 2015? How old is this version? What necessary features are missing?

pauland
01-29-2019, 03:01 PM
Did this conversation establish the reason why one needs to upgrade from any old version to 2015? How old is this version? What necessary features are missing?

It's an idea. No need for some interrogation.

Tim Parsons
01-29-2019, 08:04 PM
Pauland I see your point about maybe getting some straglers into LW, but it's just not practical from a business perspective. Have you seen all the questions raised about upgrade pricing as it is - this would be a whole nother layer of complexity. And again there is always the support issue. It's just too much to ask for NT to keep supporting old versions of LW. Well you say it will be sold "as is" - yeah right! The first guy that buys it and then can't install it is going to be bugging support for help and then get on the internet and badmouth them for not supporting their products. Bad idea. :)

pauland
01-30-2019, 01:20 AM
Pauland I see your point about maybe getting some straglers into LW, but it's just not practical from a business perspective. Have you seen all the questions raised about upgrade pricing as it is - this would be a whole nother layer of complexity. And again there is always the support issue. It's just too much to ask for NT to keep supporting old versions of LW. Well you say it will be sold "as is" - yeah right! The first guy that buys it and then can't install it is going to be bugging support for help and then get on the internet and badmouth them for not supporting their products. Bad idea. :)

I think that LW 2015 is recent enough to be viable, but fair enough.

raymondtrace
01-30-2019, 04:34 AM
It's an idea. No need for some interrogation.

Well, that went off the rails pretty quickly.

You've been distracting yourself with NewTek business practices when the core problem might have simply been an unknown solution to a system compatibility problem or something a free third party plugin could solve. But let's not investigate that...and just plow through at least 2 forum pages of impotent wishing. :)

pauland
01-30-2019, 05:15 AM
Well, that went off the rails pretty quickly.

You've been distracting yourself with NewTek business practices when the core problem might have simply been an unknown solution to a system compatibility problem or something a free third party plugin could solve. But let's not investigate that...and just plow through at least 2 forum pages of impotent wishing. :)

There are loads of reasons why people don't upgrade their old software, their circumstances change, they lose interest, they may feel that for a hobby they can't afford $395, they may have sought alternatives, all kind of reasons why they might stop upgrading.

If you have something that's out of date and are given a chance to look at using it again for a modest amount of money then that may be attractive. Life isn't always about about technical issues and decisions aren't made purely on the basis of strict need.

I think you're just looking for some kind of confrontation where none is needed.

raymondtrace
01-30-2019, 07:19 AM
There are loads of reasons why people don't upgrade their old software...

Right, but I'm interested in the reason for Commander_Chaos. If you want to deep dive into all that other nonsense then you're just looking for some kind of confrontation where none is needed. Lighten up.

pauland
01-30-2019, 07:31 AM
Raymond,

Is Commander Chaos some kind of Marvel villain I haven't heard of?

I made a suggestion, your approval is not required.

Have a good day.

Qexit
01-30-2019, 07:56 AM
Raymond,

Is Commander Chaos some kind of Marvel villain I haven't heard of?

Commander_Chaos is the person who started this thread by asking if it was possible to upgrade to LW2015 rather than LW2019 :)

RPSchmidt
01-30-2019, 08:01 AM
Raymond,

Is Commander Chaos some kind of Marvel villain I haven't heard of?

I made a suggestion, your approval is not required.

Have a good day.

Commander_Chaos was the individual that started this thread.

As was already pointed out, there are multiple vendors that an individual can procure LW2015 from; in many cases, for less than $200. In many cases, an academic version can be purchased for $95 from resellers (which is essentially a full version).

It's not unreasonable that Newtek would discontinue distribution of a product that is five years old when they have released two recent complete version updates.

pauland
01-30-2019, 08:12 AM
Commander_Chaos was the individual that started this thread.[quote]

Aha!

[quote]As was already pointed out, there are multiple vendors that an individual can procure LW2015 from; in many cases, for less than $200.

I can't see that post. I haven't see anyone selling the LW2015 upgrade for less than $200.


In many cases, an academic version can be purchased for $95 from resellers (which is essentially a full version).
You need to be a student.


It's not unreasonable that Newtek would discontinue distribution of a product that is five years old when they have released two recent complete version updates.
Nobody said they are acting unreasonably.

Tim Parsons
01-30-2019, 08:37 AM
You need to be a student.



Not necessarily. If you are a teacher or have a child student and don't use it for commercial gain, you can get a new license of LW for $195 from most any educational website. There is also no support from NT for educational licenses.

raymondtrace
01-30-2019, 08:40 AM
...I made a suggestion, your approval is not required...

Until you quoted me, I was never engaged in a dialog with you. I never denied your right to waste your time on tangents. My initial questions were those only the OP could answer and were designed to make something productive of this discussion.

RPSchmidt
01-30-2019, 08:42 AM
I can't see that post. I haven't see anyone selling the LW2015 upgrade for less than $200.

First page of this thread;


But like I said; there are tons of sources you can purchase a full copy or upgrade of LW2015 from (quick Google search), if that is the direction you want to go in.


You need to be a student.

Or essentially an individual who will not profit from the use of the product. I think most hobbyists fall into that category and their purchase of an academic copy would be reasonable. Self-education through use, tutorials, and reference material is still a student qualifier.

If you intend to profit from the use of the product, then you should pay full price, regardless of the source or the version.


Nobody said they are acting unreasonably.

So your pricing proposal is essentially moot.

pauland
01-30-2019, 09:12 AM
First page of this thread;

Or essentially an individual who will not profit from the use of the product. I think most hobbyists fall into that category and their purchase of an academic copy would be reasonable. Self-education through use, tutorials, and reference material is still a student qualifier.

If you intend to profit from the use of the product, then you should pay full price, regardless of the source or the version.



So your pricing proposal is essentially moot.

Well, I don't agree.

I'm sure there are plenty of 'lapsed' LWers from the commercial sphere and there are plenty of hobbyists that aren't in a position (or willing) to cheat the system by getting someone else to get their licence for them.

If people wanted to re-engage with LW for $395, then they will and that's perfect.

My suggestion is to encourage people to re-engage with a more recent version of LW for less money and hopefully that may lead to at worst $195 for Netwek and at best a follow-on the full upgrade.

I have an ancient version of LW and would go for LW2015 at $195, but I wouldn't do so for $395, at least not straight-off. I suspect there's a fair number of people using old LW versions commercially who feel the same. That's all. It's not an insult to Newtek or anyone to make this suggestion. Only they know how many people are out there with older LW licences that may be approachable for an offer like this.

I understand that some people think it's a no-go, but I've put the idea forward and Newtek can ignore it or not.

Commander_Chaos
01-31-2019, 09:13 AM
Wow. I hadn't looked at this thread in a couple of days.

1) I wanted LW2015 because the installer for the version I have wouldn't work on my new computer. Newtek has since provided me with an installer that works with the new computer.

2) $300-$400 is well withing my budget for an upgrade, so no issue there

3) LW2018 and later, unless I'm missing something, is a no-go because I'm in the middle of a bunch of product renderings that all have to match. When I open my old files in the new version the appearance of them is totally different, so unless there's a way to match what I was doing before, I can't change.

4) Even though my approach to 3-D illustration is totally based around Lightwave I'm concerned that my clients can't open my files because they're using something else.

5) Commander Chaos is a name I picked up years ago when I was racing motorcycles and crashing. ALOT.

pauland
01-31-2019, 09:22 AM
5) Commander Chaos is a name I picked up years ago when I was racing motorcycles and crashing. ALOT.

Ouch!

Glad it all worked out.

raymondtrace
01-31-2019, 10:34 AM
...4) Even though my approach to 3-D illustration is totally based around Lightwave I'm concerned that my clients can't open my files because they're using something else...

That should not be anything to worry about. That's why we use interchange formats, common to multiple 3D platforms (fbx/obj/etc). You benefit more with each successive LW release as more support is added for newer interchange formats.

Commander_Chaos
02-01-2019, 10:09 AM
Most clients aren't the brightest anyways - if they were they wouldn't be asking for your help.

Did you seriously post this comment with your name and the name of your company attached?

Tim Parsons
02-01-2019, 11:02 AM
Did you seriously post this comment with your name and the name of your company attached?

The truth sets you free! :) Now of course I meant in regards to the world of 3D. Obviously clients know their own business, but for them to make a judgment call on your skill based on the software you use would just show how much they don't know about the 3D world. If they need you to use a certain piece of software to fit into a pipeline then that's a different matter. But if they ask you to make a checkered ball and have it bounce back and forth between two walls and loop to infinity so we can display it on our flat screen TV in our corporate lobby - and then say "oh BTW you need to create it in Maya or we won't give the job to you" - yeah, they are not the brightest.

pauland
02-01-2019, 11:11 AM
The truth sets you free! :) Now of course I meant in regards to the world of 3D. Obviously clients know their own business, but for them to make a judgment call on your skill based on the software you use would just show how much they don't know about the 3D world. If they need you to use a certain piece of software to fit into a pipeline then that's a different matter. But if they ask you to make a checkered ball and have it bounce back and forth between two walls and loop to infinity so we can display it on our flat screen TV in our corporate lobby - and then say "oh BTW you need to create it in Maya or we won't give the job to you" - yeah, they are not the brightest.

It's understandable, if infuriating.

There's an assumption that photographic manipulation must be done using Photoshop and illustration needs illustrator.

People hear about software used by people to make good work, so they just want the same.

Tim Parsons
02-01-2019, 11:29 AM
It's understandable, if infuriating.

There's an assumption that photographic manipulation must be done using Photoshop and illustration need illustrator.

People hear about software used in by people to make good work, so they just want the same.

That's exactly right. 90% of my clients are internal and when I meet with them about a project there is always time spent in educating them not because they are not intelligent people, they just don't understand what's involved with 3D - to them everything is Power Point easy. :) Many times I'll guide them down another path knowing that the ROI on doing their project in 3D is just not there.

jbrookes
02-01-2019, 12:42 PM
Here's a radical idea - they could offer an upgrade to LW2015 for $195 for people who have older versions of LW on the basis that it's no longer in development and that it's sold as-is. If someone then wants to upgrade to LW2019 they could do so for the difference in cost.

This would encourage a lot of people who have older LW versions to get back towards the modern LW world and not have to worry about shelling out $395 in one go.

Newtek picks up a bundle of cash and possibly a further injection of secondary upgrades if it kickstarts LW activity again.

That's what Corel used to do back in the day, and they made a fortune at it. I should know, I used to sell their products (among many other companies' apps) and their cost-reduced previous versions sold like hot-cakes.

Also, I should really mention the Rebel Hill PBR Rendering tutorials. Definitely streamlines the LW2018 / 2019 renderer learning curve. Lots of good material there:
http://www.rebelhill.net/html/rhlsr.html

pauland
02-01-2019, 12:49 PM
That's what Corel used to do back in the day, and they made a fortune at it. I should know, I used to sell their products (among many other companies' apps) and their cost-reduced previous versions sold like hot-cakes.

Also, I should really mention the Rebel Hill PBR Rendering tutorials. Definitely streamlines the LW2018/2019 renderer learning curve. Lots of good material there:
http://www.rebelhill.net/html/rhlsr.html

I know of a company selling design software like this - they always have cut-price offers on old versions.

Glad to know not everyone thinks I'm crazy.

Commander_Chaos
02-02-2019, 12:47 PM
The truth sets you free! :) Now of course I meant in regards to the world of 3D. Obviously clients know their own business, but for them to make a judgment call on your skill based on the software you use would just show how much they don't know about the 3D world. If they need you to use a certain piece of software to fit into a pipeline then that's a different matter. But if they ask you to make a checkered ball and have it bounce back and forth between two walls and loop to infinity so we can display it on our flat screen TV in our corporate lobby - and then say "oh BTW you need to create it in Maya or we won't give the job to you" - yeah, they are not the brightest.

A more likely scenario for me would be me as Supplier A for a client creates work that is to be picked up by Supplier B for further development. If Suppliers B, C, and D all say this guy is a pain in the *** because we're all using Cinema 4d, them I have a real problem. I've only used .obj as a transfer format and the amount if useable data that survived the conversion was pretty limited. Ideally, anyone who opens my files should double-check and see the same thing I'm seeing. That might not even be possible but the practical result is that I'm stuck in a battle of opinions with the client mediating the fight. This is the exact opposite of what I try to project with my clients, which is "It's going to be okay, I'll take care of it, there's nothing to worry about "

Tim Parsons
02-02-2019, 04:33 PM
A more likely scenario for me would be me as Supplier A for a client creates work that is to be picked up by Supplier B for further development. If Suppliers B, C, and D all say this guy is a pain in the *** because we're all using Cinema 4d, them I have a real problem. I've only used .obj as a transfer format and the amount if useable data that survived the conversion was pretty limited. Ideally, anyone who opens my files should double-check and see the same thing I'm seeing. That might not even be possible but the practical result is that I'm stuck in a battle of opinions with the client mediating the fight. This is the exact opposite of what I try to project with my clients, which is "It's going to be okay, I'll take care of it, there's nothing to worry about "

Yes - in those scenarios it can be prudent depending on what you are asked to deliver. These clients have special needs and reasons for a particular package to be used so that makes sense.

jwiede
02-02-2019, 04:48 PM
A more likely scenario for me would be me as Supplier A for a client creates work that is to be picked up by Supplier B for further development. If Suppliers B, C, and D all say this guy is a pain in the *** because we're all using Cinema 4d, them I have a real problem. I've only used .obj as a transfer format and the amount if useable data that survived the conversion was pretty limited. Ideally, anyone who opens my files should double-check and see the same thing I'm seeing. That might not even be possible but the practical result is that I'm stuck in a battle of opinions with the client mediating the fight. This is the exact opposite of what I try to project with my clients, which is "It's going to be okay, I'll take care of it, there's nothing to worry about "

Yeah, the unfortunate reality is that LW no longer has the standing in the 3D market it used to have. Having other vendors "do all the lifting" to maintain/update LW format import/export jeopardizes overall LW format support. Just publishing a new version of the format specification hasn't been "adequate support" in that regard for quite some time. Look at the level of support MAXON (Melange/C4D) and Autodesk (FBX) have and continue to provide for external vendors' import/export needs, despite that they ARE the 3D market share leaders. Newtek's openly-provided documentation and related content regarding LW formats is thin, even skeletal, by comparison.

If Newtek cares about getting external vendors' continued support for import/export of LW formats, they need to do more to aid/encourage such support.

For example, don't just provide a new version format spec, but also provide format "version delta documentation" specifying the changes in the format version to version, at a fine level of detail -- right now, figuring all that out is left as an exercise for the reader. As another example, provide "LW format migration info" that doesn't just contain the "delta change" info, but goes even further, providing info on the mechanism and algorithm changes needed by existing format import/export code in order to support the new versions of the formats -- perhaps even low-level pseudo-coded example of how a prior-version importer/exporter had to be changed for the version transition.

Lacking even those levels/kinds of documentation, updating for new format versions becomes a REALLY tough "sell". External vendors are already unlikely to see any significant RoI on updating for new versions of Lightwave-specific formats. The more work required by such format version updates, the more likely they'll just do nothing (as in, don't support the new format versions), or drop LW format IO support outright. Historical evidence validating that correlation is abundant.