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Franky6633
01-09-2019, 08:24 AM
so i got HEAVY negative criticism about this drawing i made on how i would picture a future version of lightwave, basically have modeller and layout in one window so you can still model and animate in the same software all within the without jumping back and forth
another idea i had in mind is to keep the top and bottom toolbars and just have 2 buttons on top of modeller and layout that would just switch windows and menus within the same software and just let users focus on your task without interfering with the layout, just a thought, i just want an easy way to do 3d in lightwave, i REALLY LOVE lightwave, but switching between programs is unfortunately frustrating for me :(
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erikals
01-09-2019, 07:36 PM
NewTek certainly has to improve the workflow. They are aware of this.

one of the more frustrating ones, imo >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1crpvJ41RyI

Tim Parsons
01-09-2019, 08:43 PM
so i got HEAVY negative criticism about this drawing i made on how i would picture a future version of lightwave,
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You might get that here too. :)

Marander
01-10-2019, 02:19 AM
so i got HEAVY negative criticism about this drawing i made on how i would picture a future version of lightwave, basically have modeller and layout in one window so you can still model and animate in the same software all within the without jumping back and forth
another idea i had in mind is to keep the top and bottom toolbars and just have 2 buttons on top of modeller and layout that would just switch windows and menus within the same software and just let users focus on your task without interfering with the layout, just a thought, i just want an easy way to do 3d in lightwave, i REALLY LOVE lightwave, but switching between programs is unfortunately frustrating for me :(
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The criticism is because it's simply a horrible mockup. A UI like that would make the outdated, convoluted and inflexible LW UI even worse. Nothing personal but there are much better approaches to a good workflow (like using workspaces for example).

However pointless discussion because NewTek (at least the LW part) obviously doesn't seem to care or have knowledge about a user friendly and efficient UI / UX design (clearly visible in the worse dialog boxes and workflow from LW 2015 to 2018).

hrgiger
01-10-2019, 03:20 PM
yes that is awful.

50one
01-11-2019, 01:56 AM
On a sidenote, went to LW YT channel as I was looking a specific example I seen there to recreate in C4D.

Noticed that last uploads were the pronos for 2018 which are two years old now apart form that seems to be abandiy....despite promises for comms(again) when Rob and Co. Left the company. Blog seems to be dead as always too.

Sucks.

3D Kiwi
01-11-2019, 02:45 AM
You would think they would have learned from last time, But they arnt the only ones, Blackmagic has been deathly quiet about fusion for a while now.

Qexit
01-11-2019, 05:43 AM
On a sidenote, went to LW YT channel as I was looking a specific example I seen there to recreate in C4D.

Noticed that last uploads were the pronos for 2018 which are two years old now apart form that seems to be abandiy....despite promises for comms(again) when Rob and Co. Left the company. Blog seems to be dead as always too.

Sucks.While I would also like to see some new stuff appearing on there, saying the LW2018 Previews are two years old is a bit of stretch. LW2018 was announced on Dec 12th 2017 with YouTube Previews to support the announcement. It is now Jan 11th 2019, so that's 1 year 1 month which is a little short of being two years old :D

50one
01-11-2019, 09:07 AM
While I would also like to see some new stuff appearing on there, saying the LW2018 Previews are two years old is a bit of stretch. LW2018 was announced on Dec 12th 2017 with YouTube Previews to support the announcement. It is now Jan 11th 2019, so that's 1 year 1 month which is a little short of being two years old :D


??? When you go to LW channel and see all the videos, it says "2 years" in the uploaded line for the 2018 previews clips....

Qexit
01-11-2019, 09:32 AM
??? When you go to LW channel and see all the videos, it says "2 years" in the uploaded line for the 2018 previews clips....Anything over 1 year old is designated as 2 years. There is no breakdown by months. Please post a link to a LW2018 Preview video posted before December 2017.

raymondtrace
01-11-2019, 09:42 AM
This is the most recent video posted to the Lightwave3D account on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeEmoBdb9M

This was posted on December 7, 2016 and was attributed to the coming "Lightwave Next" release (aka 'LW2018').

Lightwave's presence on Vimeo is no better. The last video posted there was 4 years ago. https://vimeo.com/102158668

EDIT: The thing that bugs me about all this is that there is a Marketo bug on the lightwave3d.com site to assess/track possible customers. This means NewTek is paying money from their marketing budget. They're just not advertising or marketing anything. Nutty!

Qexit
01-11-2019, 11:08 AM
This is the most recent video posted to the Lightwave3D account on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeEmoBdb9M

This was posted on December 7, 2016 and was attributed to the coming "Lightwave Next" release (aka 'LW2018').

Lightwave's presence on Vimeo is no better. The last video posted there was 4 years ago. https://vimeo.com/102158668

EDIT: The thing that bugs me about all this is that there is a Marketo bug on the lightwave3d.com site to assess/track possible customers. This means NewTek is paying money from their marketing budget. They're just not advertising or marketing anything. Nutty!Hm, not too sure about that regarding the most recent post to the Lightwave YouTube account. This is a link to the Lightwave 3D 2018 page which has the most recent addition as being on 7 Mar 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBscyc2_NuEDw35QafMh_PZ97opxt0j-o

The link you provided is down at the bottom of the list of 14 videos. The first nine videos were all posted in December 2017.

50one
01-11-2019, 11:41 AM
Well point being, YT fault for not saying exactly one year few months...when I'm a potential customer and see stuff on YT 'older than 2 years' than it's no good. Whether you like it or not.

raymondtrace
01-11-2019, 01:00 PM
Hm, not too sure about that regarding the most recent post to the Lightwave YouTube account...

You're confusing channels and playlists because NewTek is recklessly confusing them. Those videos you see from 2018 belong to Antti Järvelä's personal YouTube channel. The Lightwave3D account simply added them to its playlist.

While Antti is a trusted and inherently knowledgeable demonstrator, it just seems bizarre that Newtek is relying on its developers to produce marketing for them. It is like a closed source program is embracing open source marketing.


...Blog seems to be dead as always too...

Which blog? The latest entry for https://blog.lightwave3d.com/ is only a couple days old. They're keeping that up-to-date even though it is being well hidden under the proverbial bushel. The "blog" subdomain is not even linked from the main www.lightwave3d.com domain. It is a surprise anyone finds that blog with only 385 backlinks. The main domain has 1.3 million backlinks.

Qexit
01-11-2019, 01:14 PM
You're confusing channels and playlists because NewTek is recklessly confusing them. Those videos you see from 2018 belong to Antti Järvelä's personal YouTube channel. The Lightwave3D account simply added them to its playlist.

While Antti is a trusted and inherently knowledgeable demonstrator, it just seems bizarre that Newtek is relying on its developers to produce marketing for them. It is like a closed source program is embracing open source marketing.Fair enough, I don't spend a great deal of time searching through YouTube so my mistake. Can we agree that Newtek could do with taking a look at their various channels and revising things along with adding some more recent material :)

hrgiger
01-11-2019, 02:11 PM
It clear that whether LW sells or not isn't of concern to NT.

erikals
01-11-2019, 03:22 PM
a LightWave "Full" release always takes approximately 3 years.

so people better buckle up for 2 more years.


2004 june - LightWave 8
2006 july - LightWave 9
2011 jan - LightWave 10
2012 mar - LightWave 11
2014 dec - LightWave 2015
2018 jan - LightWave 2018

~thereabout


It's clear that whether LW sells or not isn't of concern to NT.
NewTek was never good at marketing/sales, one shouldn't expect those things to change.
take it as a bonus if it does happen, but try not to take it as a disappointment if it doesn't.
...we would have been disappointed for 15 years now. :)

Let it go... Let it go... *

raymondtrace
01-11-2019, 03:42 PM
...NewTek was never good at marketing...

That's debatable but it is undeniable they were better at marketing. The wealth of old videos on their YouTube and Vimeo accounts are evidence. Thankfully there are clever folk like yourself helping out. Congratulations on breaking 1 million views.

erikals
01-11-2019, 03:51 PM
Congratulations on breaking 1 million views.
Hey, Thanks!  https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png

yes, NewTek certainly could get better at the marketing part, at least the William Vaughan series kicked.
and even though they still do, hopefully they will hire someone to do the very same thing over again.
breath some fresh air into the cycles.

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 04:05 PM
Has anybody heard anything about a Lightwave 2019 so far? And no I am not doing this to start fights. I am planning the companies budgets for this year and want to know if there will be a 2019 or if we should invest in another software. Please don't start a fight with this. Sincerely want to know if there will be another Lightwave coming out this year. Thanks

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 04:08 PM
Also to side note I did read the forum but I don't know what is speculation and what is not. If nobody has heard anything that is fine.

erikals
01-11-2019, 04:10 PM
as far as i know there is a "LightWave 2019" project name, that might change down the line to LightWave 2020 or even 2021.

do note, LightWave 2018 had the project name "LightWave 2016"

Morgan Nilsson
01-11-2019, 04:23 PM
Well, at least the official word is *soon*. Speculate all you want, but work with what tools are available today rather than tomorrow is a good mindset to have. Next release comes when it comes :)

Tim Parsons
01-11-2019, 04:26 PM
Has anybody heard anything about a Lightwave 2019 so far? And no I am not doing this to start fights. I am planning the companies budgets for this year and want to know if there will be a 2019 or if we should invest in another software. Please don't start a fight with this. Sincerely want to know if there will be another Lightwave coming out this year. Thanks

Do what I did and put it in the budget anyway. :) If it happens you are good to go, if not - no loss.

erikals
01-11-2019, 04:31 PM
NewTek *soon* can take 1 month, or 1 year.

not complaining, but the greybeards among us know by now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTFQtTBCXE


Do what I did and put it in the budget anyway.
yep, or buy LWcad, always of good use.
http://www.lwcad.com/html/main/new.php

i'll assume you own the Rebel Hill series
http://www.rebelhill.net/index.html

3dslider
01-11-2019, 04:48 PM
Before this team put Lightwave every year as they promised which is nice, now i am worry it is not as same i think it will take more time of next ligthwave, i feel some bad because no word from them... More recent at Blender 2.8 is an era of change for "big stuff", it will take up to both Lightwave and Modo if they are not watch out and if they make at right degree level of bright feature and modern. Lightwave team need seriously to change all cause workflow is very outdated but again to use and for how much of time yet? Lightwave 2018 was a beginning to change some stuff but not at all... Hope they have a great luck to do it that and a big fight is needed.

- - - Updated - - -


Well, at least the official word is *soon*. Speculate all you want, but work with what tools are available today rather than tomorrow is a good mindset to have. Next release comes when it comes :)

Have you a link of this word ?

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 05:10 PM
I am interested where you heard that as well.

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 05:14 PM
I want to plan it in the budget but I also want to keep moving forward with what makes sense. I have loved Lightwave because it has helped me learn 3d animation where the other programs I struggled with. I am just making decisions as to what might be best according to what knowledge I have.

Another thing to note is a lot of the freelancers I have used in the past now have moved on to blender or other software. I had a lot of go to people that now all use different software. That is not a problem as I still like my Lightwave but makes it harder to find people who work with Lightwave and have time to work.

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 05:16 PM
i'll assume you own the Rebel Hill series
http://www.rebelhill.net/index.html

I did buy his tutorials and have enjoyed them. I just got the last ones a few weeks ago and they are Amazing! I really like how he explains things, I do not have an animation background before I started so it is super helpful.

erikals
01-11-2019, 05:27 PM
the next LightWave will include Metamorphic from what i recall.

their aim, based on notes from the programmer, and recent user research, is also to upgrade Modeler. (yes)
however, seeing that a Modeler part rewrite will take longer than what the Layout upgrade did (according to the programmer) it might be unlikely to see this Modeler upgrade any time soon.
https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149194-New-Blog-Post-The-Modifier-Stack&p=1460368&viewfull=1#post1460368

erikals
01-11-2019, 05:32 PM
i'll assume you own the Rebel Hill series
http://www.rebelhill.net/index.html

I did buy his tutorials and have enjoyed them. I just got the last ones a few weeks ago and they are Amazing!
I really like how he explains things, I do not have an animation background before I started so it is super helpful.
yes, they are Fantastic, imo.
you should also get the Ryan Roye ones, to get some perspective on different ways to go about CA.
https://www.liberty3d.com/citizens/ryan-roye

and don't forget ODToolSet, to speed things up.
http://www.origamidigital.com/odtoolsOrder.html

hrgiger
01-11-2019, 06:54 PM
Serious question... do people really need to budget for $299 that it will affect the whole rest of the year of buying decisions?

erikals
01-11-2019, 07:26 PM
some, i work at a school, our budget is ridiculous. (low)

Airwaves
01-11-2019, 07:29 PM
For me it is more than just that decision of budgeting. I also do try to budget as best I can but I do buy multiple licenses and may end up buying more if we stick with Lightwave. I only have one license that is upgraded to 2018 at the moment. I am hoping to expand this year :)

- - - Updated - - -

One other factor that does affect some of my decisions is that I also work on stuff in the Unreal Engine for a game we are making and again most of our freelancers who use the unreal engine use other software.

jwiede
01-11-2019, 11:49 PM
Serious question... do people really need to budget for $299 that it will affect the whole rest of the year of buying decisions?

Also depends on how many seats are involved, of course.

jwiede
01-12-2019, 12:12 AM
the next LightWave will include Metamorphic from what i recall.

their aim, based on notes from the programmer, and recent user research, is also to upgrade Modeler. (yes)
however, seeing that a Modeler part rewrite will take longer than what the Layout upgrade did (according to the programmer) it might be unlikely to see this Modeler upgrade any time soon.
https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149194-New-Blog-Post-The-Modifier-Stack&p=1460368&viewfull=1#post1460368

I think expecting anything of the sort you're suggesting is setting yourself up for disappointment.

There have been some recurring themes in the departing comments from LW mgmt & devs, esp. around "not being allowed to make deeply-needed changes". If only one or two had said something along those lines, it might not be worth giving attention, but that theme's been repeated enough times now to suggest there's a real issue there. On top of that, factor in the ongoing lack of serious dev efforts to areas other than surfacing/rendering, absence of expenditure/effort towards marketing and customer relations, as well as various indications of understaffing.

Eventually, there are just too many points in too tight of a line to sustain belief in lack of correlation.

erikals
01-12-2019, 06:21 AM
There have been some recurring themes in the departing comments from LW mgmt & devs, esp. around "not being allowed to make deeply-needed changes". If only one or two had said something along those lines, it might not be worth giving attention, but that theme's been repeated enough times now to suggest there's a real issue there.
didn't know. if so i think they need to revive Core, or start from scratch.

gameDesign
01-12-2019, 08:14 AM
didn't know. if so i think they need to revive Core, or start from scratch.

I have moved to Blender now for the majority of my work and I have not used LightWave for over a year. I really can’t see any benefits to using it anymore to be honest, but I’m sure everyone has things they prefer about LightWave. I really tried to stick with LightWave, but it just didn’t make sense to me to keep feeding money into it when Blender is making such great leaps.

COBRASoft
01-12-2019, 12:33 PM
I hope they continue core in the background and as such implemented the new render engine, volumetrics and such in current LW2018 for testing purposes lol

3dslider
01-12-2019, 01:15 PM
If so Core will take more time year to finish or they are in their way from since Lightwave 2018 ? Don't know hope they can bright it soon ...

jwiede
01-12-2019, 02:38 PM
I still believe (or want to, anyway) that positive changes can occur. I really wish we were receiving tangible evidence that the scope and depth of work being done was significantly greater than ever in the past, and were witnessing other signs of renewed investment and motivation (investments in marketing, staffing, etc.) towards LW.

If I were seeing those kinds of signs, I would feel much, much better about LW's future. I have witnessed some positive signs, but they're limited, and (too) similar to what I've witnessed in the past. History has shown over and over how those play out: By themselves, they just aren't enough to trigger the kind of sweeping growth/improvement needed to reverse LW's situation (IMO, YMMV, etc.).

hrgiger
01-12-2019, 03:12 PM
Of course some positive things can happen and the next LW will likely have some new modeling features (based on the whole LW modeler survey thing) and they have bought Metamorphic but after only a year, I wouldn't count on any sea change of architectural improvements. I'm guessing it will be the low hanging fruit variety of changes for modeler like smoothing groups(that people have been asking for now for years) or maybe a few other game features/export, maybe a few new modeling tools, etc… And those would be welcome additions but the issue is, they seem like a bigger deal if you're a LW user and now you have new native functionality and largely irrelevant if you're looking from the outside at what LW is bringing new to the table. And if that is what is offered, it completely ignores the deep and longstanding issues that Modeler has. New tools are low hanging fruit and probably the last thing Modeler would need to become relevant again.

Forget about CORE. It could have been something (maybe), but its dead Jim.

jwiede
01-12-2019, 03:35 PM
New tools are low hanging fruit and probably the last thing Modeler would need to become relevant again.

:i_agree:

Modeler direly needs serious UI/UX and "tool coalescing/reorganization" work much more that it needs any more new tools.

Surfacing in Modeler is also now rather fundamentally broken, as well, so add that to the "Modeler show-stoppers" list. Modeler can't just be left without surfacing preview support, that has a seriously negative impact on modeling and even surfacing (due to UVs) UX/workflows. That the devs thought leaving Modeler surfacing support in its current state was "okay" is disturbing, to say the least.

IMO, the current Modeler architecture has zero chance of ever becoming "relevant" again. Between UI/UX constraints and lengthy lists of missing "standard/required features and capabilities" which cannot be efficiently implemented within the existing architecture, I just don't see how Modeler can be brought to a state that significant quantities of new customers would embrace.

By the time you've replaced the UI engine/app framework, the geometry engine/scenegraph, related tool infrastructure, likely significant parts of the viewport/OGL (to deal with UI & geometry engines' changes), etc. you're really talking about a new, different architecture/infrastructure overall. Unfortunately, at this point, that's all necessary to eliminate key limitations preventing critical features from being added to Modeler. It's a lot of work, but that's WHY it's better to continually update and replace systems over time: If not done that way, necessary work builds up over time, and quicker than you'd expect, the situation becomes "death by a thousand cuts".


Forget about CORE. It could have been something (maybe), but its dead Jim.

Ayup. There was a time when that path might have worked, but that window has closed (and the window's since been covered with drywall ...and bricks ...and then nuked from orbit).

Rayek
01-12-2019, 04:09 PM
If Modeler needs to be mostly re-written (as it should be), the small LW team will be battling on two fronts: Modeler and Layout. Is every development cycle now putting an alternating focus on one or the other? That seems a rather neurotic approach to development. It's not as if they are able to compete with any other mainstream 3D DCC software at this point, let alone having to divide their small resources on maintaining two code bases with a patched-up bridge app to keep things running.

Which brings up the matter of Modeler integration into Layout once again, or lack thereof. Many of the current limitations and workflow problems can be traced right back at this. Preaching to the choir and water under the bridge, and all that, however. It's been discussed ad infinitum.

What would be the point of rewriting Modeler's architecture separate from Layout? They'd have to code manage two applications again, and trying to keep both feature-par is a waste of time, IMO. But the current management seemingly swiped Modeler/Layout integration off the table as far as I am aware.

Unless they've strategized this approach right from the start to achieve a refactoring of both (which, based on Lightwave's management past is HIGHLY doubtful), I feel they've painted themselves in a corner.

In the end this is all conjecture. Newtek has fallen silent on the matter, and we will see what we will see. Hope for the best, expect the worst.

jwiede
01-12-2019, 04:51 PM
In the end this is all conjecture.

There is actual evidence indicating certain serious problems exist, and further, events continue to play out exactly as if such problems exist (across an extended period). There's a huge difference between baseless conjecture (aka hypothesis, what most mean when they use "conjecture"), and conjecture modeled upon actual evidence (aka theory).

I wish it were all hypothesis, but that hasn't been the case here for some time.

Rayek
01-12-2019, 05:23 PM
...which is why I used the word "conjecture" instead of "hypothesis". A hypothesis is testable, a conjecture that can be tested by experiment and/or observation. A conjecture is modeled on incomplete information, defined as an opinion. Thus we go from conjecture, to hypothesis, to consensus.

Chuck
01-14-2019, 10:02 AM
so i got HEAVY negative criticism about this drawing i made on how i would picture a future version of lightwave, basically have modeller and layout in one window so you can still model and animate in the same software all within the without jumping back and forth
another idea i had in mind is to keep the top and bottom toolbars and just have 2 buttons on top of modeller and layout that would just switch windows and menus within the same software and just let users focus on your task without interfering with the layout, just a thought, i just want an easy way to do 3d in lightwave, i REALLY LOVE lightwave, but switching between programs is unfortunately frustrating for me :(
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Please do not resurrect old dead threads for your discussions. I have moved all the new messages to a new thread.

Chuck
01-14-2019, 10:21 AM
On a sidenote, went to LW YT channel as I was looking a specific example I seen there to recreate in C4D.

Noticed that last uploads were the pronos for 2018 which are two years old now apart form that seems to be abandiy....despite promises for comms(again) when Rob and Co. Left the company. Blog seems to be dead as always too.

Sucks.

A number of LightWave 2018 tutorials (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjP11gFhwM&list=PLBscyc2_NuEDw35QafMh_PZ97opxt0j-o) are available in the playlists on YouTube, uploaded to Antti's account but available through the LightWave account's playlists. Yes, we do otherwise need to get more active there, and we plan to do so.

As for the blog, there have been more blog posts through 2018 than in all the years the blog existed before that, a total of 26 new blog entries since December 19, 2018, many of which included LightWave 2018 tutorial videos. The most recent was January 7th 2019 (https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2019/01/scripting-for-lightwave-3d-how-to-script-a-surface-list-and-renaming/), just four days before your post. We also broadened the scope of the blog to include third party news as well as tutorials from third parties and users, and will be further broadening the subject matter in the current year.

jwiede
01-14-2019, 03:40 PM
We also broadened the scope of the blog to include third party news as well as tutorials from third parties and users, and will be further broadening the subject matter in the current year.

So now the blog's no different from the Newsletter, or FB group, then in terms of content focus?

Very disappointed. We had a bunch of content channels already containing "all kinds of info" (Newsletter, FB group, etc). The blog's focus was different, and more specifically about LW development (up until recently), and that gave it a much higher signal-to-noise ratio. Alas, the blog as you now describe it (and as recent posts have shown) has apparently lost that valuable differentiation.

I'm guessing there's no point in asking for it to be changed back?

Chuck
01-14-2019, 04:33 PM
So now the blog's no different from the Newsletter, or FB group, then in terms of content focus?

Very disappointed. We had a bunch of content channels already containing "all kinds of info" (Newsletter, FB group, etc). The blog's focus was different, and more specifically about LW development (up until recently), and that gave it a much higher signal-to-noise ratio. Alas, the blog as you now describe it (and as recent posts have shown) has apparently lost that valuable differentiation.

I'd ask to have it changed back, but see no point.

With a change to public communications focused strictly on the currently available product, and also a change away from providing multiple types of content directly edited into the web pages, the blog gains a different, but wider range of content. The blog has categories and keywords, however, so you are not really strictly at the mercy of unrelenting signal-to-noise.

Also, the newsletter and the Facebook/Twitter posts were formerly sourced from those edited-into-the-web-page articles, and are now sourced from the blog entries instead. They were never truly channels unto themselves, they were always sourced from articles we created and presented on the web page, and we are simply presenting that content on the web page differently now.

jwiede
01-14-2019, 04:39 PM
With a change to public communications focused strictly on the currently available product, and also a change away from providing multiple types of content directly edited into the web pages, the blog gains a different, but wider range of content. The blog has categories and keywords, however, so you are not really strictly at the mercy of unrelenting signal-to-noise.

Is there a specific tag/keyword we can use to search for "Newtek LW development" posts (as in, just what the blog originally contained)?


Also, the newsletter and the Facebook/Twitter posts were formerly sourced from those edited-into-the-web-page articles, and are now sourced from the blog entries instead. They were never truly channels unto themselves, they were always sourced from articles we created and presented on the web page, and we are simply presenting that content on the web page differently now.

Fair enough.

BTW, why does Newtek believe falling back to "public communications focused strictly on the currently available product" will have any better result for Lightwave this time, given the negative outcomes of past attempts?

gar26lw
01-15-2019, 03:44 AM
definition of insanity..? ;)

tony6
01-15-2019, 04:08 AM
I also work in Education and there is just no budget.

raymondtrace
01-15-2019, 07:42 AM
...BTW, why does Newtek believe falling back to "public communications focused strictly on the currently available product" will have any better result for Lightwave this time, given the negative outcomes of past attempts?

Development previews are the fastest track toward negative outcomes. They offer little value and only provoke crazed speculation until the software is released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sICnY0c12kg
Video posted: November 20, 2015
Software released: January 1, 2018

There's no need to link to all the "when is LW going to be released?" and "is LW dead?" discussion threads that happened between those dates.

I suspect, that like other LW users, our interest in continued development is simply to validate our continued expense in time and money to push ourselves and the software to its limit. There are more efficient ways to offer that validation and I'm hoping NT marketing recognizes those soon.

RPSchmidt
01-15-2019, 08:39 AM
All of this goes back to the need for some kind of direct developer posts on what is being worked on.

Personally, I'm not so unreasonable as to believe that all of the issues and features users have focused on over the last year will be addressed.

I don't think anyone here is expecting every perceived missing or lacking feature to be addressed in the next full version update; but you certainly can't generate any excitement by not announcing anything at all.

I want to know what you are working on, simply so that I will know what I have to look forward to and have a better idea of what issues I may still have to use plugins or other software to address.

The blog desperately needs development posts and LW3DG needs to stop fearing criticism and whiplash over what they choose to dedicate resources on and what they don't.

Take a few minutes and write it up... what are the developers excited about in this next update? How do they feel the progress is going? What are their challenges?

None of this is difficult and whether it gives some of us warm fuzzies or some of us ulcers like the fires of hell in our guts, I think we would all rather know than guess.

Chuck
01-15-2019, 08:53 AM
Is there a specific tag/keyword we can use to search for "Newtek LW development" posts (as in, just what the blog originally contained)?


Anything before December 2018 in the blog.




Fair enough.

BTW, why does Newtek believe falling back to "public communications focused strictly on the currently available product" will have any better result for Lightwave this time, given the negative outcomes of past attempts?

You can't fall back on something you've never done. LightWave has been stuck for decades in a conversation that virtually completely ignores the current product and is always about what is coming next and when, and the community has always been just fraught with angst. NewTek was at fault for fostering much of that focus, and isn't going to foster that any more.

The video team has put in a couple of decades now with communications focused on the product currently in release, not speaking on future development, not responding to or being driven and manipulated by speculation, and the entire experience and community is far more positive, certainly not fraught with angst, it is people busy actually using the product, getting jobs done today, and where problems crop up they are solving problems together and with NewTek.

Tim Parsons
01-15-2019, 09:01 AM
The video team has put in a couple of decades now with communications focused on the product currently in release, not speaking on future development, not responding to speculation, and the entire experience and community is far more positive, certainly not fraught with angst, it is people busy actually using the product, getting jobs done today, and where problems crop up they are solving problems together and with NewTek.

William Vaughan did a really good job of that with LightWave. Why not have or get somebody to do that now?

gar26lw
01-15-2019, 09:20 AM
in my mind, it just comes down to folks wanting to get some idea of the future so they can retain confidence in the product and stay competitive. without that they jump ship. i think that there has been plenty of evidence for that. at this point what’s the harm in the blog or dare i say it, a roadmap?

of course, all this is self-flagellation on our part.

raymondtrace
01-15-2019, 10:13 AM
The harm in offering a development road map is understood by most people. Just look backward to see how silly it is to look forward:

https://code.blender.org/2013/06/blender-roadmap-2-7-2-8-and-beyond/

"I propose to make the GE [Game Engine] to become a real part of Blender code – to make it not separated anymore. This would make it more supported, more stable and (I'm sure) much more fun to work on as well." - June 2013

https://www.blender.org/features/game-creation/

"Blender Game Engine is no longer part of the upcoming Blender 2.80." - today

Most people would probably trade insight into development plans with a more regular release schedule (even if each release was not spectacular) and a more intentional cultivation of the community (ie: cloud.blender.org, plugin marketplace, training marketplace). Some users are just looking for a pulse. :)

prometheus
01-15-2019, 10:45 AM
Development previews are the fastest track toward negative outcomes. They offer little value and only provoke crazed speculation until the software is released.



I Have serious doubts about that being true as a general rule, If you apply it to Lightwave previews, that later really doesn´t live up to a preview that by itself didn´t show enough information from the start, that may be the case, as individual previews for any given feature, they can get high praise in the beginning, which actually has been like that for some 2018 features, but once the software overall comes out, there are loads of other stuff in the feedback outcome that may be getting some bashing.

We could look at blender and the eevee engine as a case of constant development showcase, as far as I know of, the outcome of the feedback response isn´t directly negative, or am I wrong here?

In my perspective..I would say It depends on how good and true the Development previews are, not that it is inherent in a development communication policy that it would always yield a fast track towards negative outcomes.

hrgiger
01-15-2019, 02:21 PM
The problem with talk focused only on the current product, it completely ignores land standing customer complaints about problems they have been experiencing for years and imo creates more angst. It also is what drives people to other solutions that are either providing those solutions today, or talking about where it is looking to solve those problems in the future.

And in my view, not talking about future releases or what development may or may not be working on, its pretty much what has led to the largest amount of speculation on these forums and elsewhere. When people don't know anything or are pretty much starved of information like they were in the two years leading up to the LW 2018 release, they start to speculate. The two years prior to LW 2018 fueled the greatest speculation fest that I have seen in the 18 years since I bought my first copy of LW in 2000.

SBowie
01-15-2019, 03:10 PM
On the other hand, talking about what is, rather than what might be, is naturally more inclined to being accurate. Frankly, as time has shown repeatedly, damned if you do, damned if you don't ... the latter seems less likely to raise accusations of deliberately misleading anyone.

erikals
01-15-2019, 04:21 PM
crossing fingers, and no matter what, 3D is here to stay, LightWave or not.

https://i.imgur.com/CHPKCVT.gif

jwiede
01-15-2019, 04:45 PM
You can't fall back on something you've never done. LightWave has been stuck for decades in a conversation that virtually completely ignores the current product and is always about what is coming next and when, and the community has always been just fraught with angst. NewTek was at fault for fostering much of that focus, and isn't going to foster that any more.

Hmm, I can think a few quarter-or-longer periods where the communication we received as customers was quite similar to what you're describing -- in those extended "silent periods", there was very little forum presence by Newtek at all, and certainly no substantial forward-looking discussion of LW by Newtek staff. Meanwhile, other channels (such as the newsletter) continued cranking out articles about third-party development, tutorial content, customer profiles, and so forth. One such period occurred not long after the Core cancel, another after the Ikeda departure. Yet another began shortly after Rob's departure, but I'm guessing that's due to the adoption of the current policy in question.

In terms of the types of content received by customers, how has/will what you're describing as current policy yield substantively different results from what customers received during the prior extended "silent periods"?

erikals
01-15-2019, 05:12 PM
a quarterly development update would be nice, or even half-year.

but honestly i don't care all that much anymore. the proof is in the pudding https://i.imgur.com/sSi0Gry.png

Chuck
01-15-2019, 05:18 PM
Hmm, I can think a few quarter-or-longer periods where the communication we received as customers was quite similar to what you're describing -- in those extended "silent periods", there was very little forum presence by Newtek at all, and certainly no substantial forward-looking discussion of LW by Newtek staff. Meanwhile, other channels (such as the newsletter) continued cranking out articles about third-party development, tutorial content, customer profiles, and so forth. One such period occurred not long after the Core cancel, another after the Ikeda departure. Yet another began shortly after Rob's departure, but I'm guessing that's due to the adoption of the current policy in question.

In terms of the types of content received by customers, how has/will what you're describing as current policy yield substantively different results from what customers received during the prior extended "silent periods"?

For starts, no silence. We're here and engaging, but about the current available product. Also, there were not regular maintenance releases during the long silence, like the 7 and a drop-in hotfix that followed 2018.0.

Re HRGiger's comment that such conversation ignores long-standing customer complaints - no, really not. The team is always working bug reports and evaluating feature requests, and there will be times we'll comment directly to confirm we are aware, ask for more info, and yes, even sometimes let folks know if a fix is coming up in the imminent patch, etc. Getting any further ahead than that has not ever been productive, and a stream-of-consciousness from development actually does not help you get more done today with LightWave 3D. Nor does it help development to get more done with LightWave, when it comes to that.

jwiede
01-15-2019, 05:52 PM
On the other hand, talking about what is, rather than what might be, is naturally more inclined to being accurate. Frankly, as time has shown repeatedly, damned if you do, damned if you don't ... the latter seems less likely to raise accusations of deliberately misleading anyone.

If customers feeling they've been misled about product plans and roadmaps represents such a serious problem, that's generally a symptom of a larger problem around not meeting customers expectations (stemming either from setting unclear/unrealistic expectations, or simply failing to reliably deliver).

Just taking away all forward-looking product discussions is unlikely to address the core problem in such a case, nor provide any significant long-term improvement in product fortunes. In fact, if anything, that approach is likely to magnify the problem, because the company is no longer participating in customer expectation-setting whatsoever. That approach allows the company to deny any accountability for customer expectations, sure, but doing so does nothing to improve customer satisfaction, nor will it improve the company's accuracy at consistent, reliable planning and delivery.

jeric_synergy
01-15-2019, 06:27 PM
Why not have or get somebody to do that now?

$$$$$

+++

If LWG needs a target for their money, I suggest they could do worse than shoveling some towards Mark Warner: his techniques and tutorials are innovative, interesting and of high quality.

Not that he asked me: just sayin'.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-15-2019, 06:59 PM
Autodesk does not make forward-looking statements either. Seems we have a Thanos situation: "Dread it, run from it, destiny arrives all the same."

SBowie
01-15-2019, 07:17 PM
That approach allows the company to deny any accountability for customer expectations, sure, but doing so does nothing to improve customer satisfaction, nor will it improve the company's accuracy at consistent, reliable planning and delivery.Did someone say it would? On the other hand, the alternative didn't improve customer satisfaction either. It's been clearly demonstrated that opening up that discussion is a can of worms. Not going to happen, nor much point in arguing about it.

gar26lw
01-15-2019, 09:33 PM
yeah, wasting your time.

jwiede
01-16-2019, 09:58 AM
Not going to happen, nor much point in arguing about it.

Message received, thanks.

jwiede
01-16-2019, 10:01 AM
yeah, wasting your time.

Entirely, it appears.

erikals
01-16-2019, 10:52 AM
NewTek has always gone their own way about it, and will continue to do so, no one can change that.
we've had hundreds of similar discussions before. (Giger, Me, and others trying to receive more info)

so, like with many other apps, customers just have to wait and see...

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif

hrgiger
01-16-2019, 01:16 PM
NewTek has always gone their own way about it, and will continue to do so, no one can change that.
we've had hundreds of similar discussions before. (Giger, Me, and others trying to receive more info)

so, like with many other apps, customers just have to wait and see...

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif


For me it was never about receiving more info, well, not really(obviously I liked seeing info as much as the next person and it is a type of interaction). It was about engaging your customer base, marketing the product, doing presentations, tutorials (and not just taking what your users may contribute) especially when you don't have a regular release schedule like most every single other app out there (Autodesk, Foundry, Sidefx) Blender is the other odd man out but then again, they have no problem in showing people what they're working on so when it will be out has been prioritized less than what will be coming out eventually. Don't know what forward looking statements Autodesk currently engages in, but when I was following more closely, I always signed up for their webinars where they were talking about things they were working on and gave people a chance to vote or add their input.
It became clear to me after a while that either NT wasn't interested in selling/promoting LW or they simply lacked the basic belief that it was necessary to do so.

erikals
01-16-2019, 02:02 PM
It became clear to me after a while that either NT wasn't interested in selling/promoting LW or,
they simply lacked the basic belief that it was necessary to do so.

yes, something along those lines. and they will keep driving that route.
so i'm not very frustrated, since the unpredictable is quite predictable.

hrgiger
01-16-2019, 03:23 PM
yes, something along those lines. and they will keep driving that route.
so i'm not very frustrated, since the unpredictable is quite predictable.

Indeed, the unpredictable has become the predictable.

erikals
01-17-2019, 05:28 PM
The best 3D modelling software 2019
https://www.creativebloq.com/features/best-3d-modelling-software

Marander
01-18-2019, 02:29 AM
The best 3D modelling software 2019
https://www.creativebloq.com/features/best-3d-modelling-software

That blog is shallow and full of false information, even the title is wrong.

erikals
01-18-2019, 04:06 AM
full of false information
could be, but where, haven't seen it.
except Houdini, since it isn't pricey with Houdini Indie.

anyway, hope to see LightWave back in some articles / reviews.

raymondtrace
01-18-2019, 07:16 AM
...full of false information...

I don't know if it is "full" but I have found "enough" stupid/incorrect articles on that site to have given up ever spending another minute there. I suspect they publish knowingly wrong or contentious information just to get people ranting about it and generating additional advertising impressions.

It is just a blog to push targeted advertising.

Ztreem
01-18-2019, 08:02 AM
The best 3D modelling software 2019
https://www.creativebloq.com/features/best-3d-modelling-software

LOL! What a stupid list. When they rank Houdini as number 2 on the list of the best modeling software for every skill level and Zbrush as no 7. I belive more people is modeling in Zbrush than Houdini. They clearly don't know what they are talking about.

prometheus
01-18-2019, 09:25 AM
LOL! What a stupid list. When they rank Houdini as number 2 on the list of the best modeling software for every skill level and Zbrush as no 7. I belive more people is modeling in Zbrush than Houdini. They clearly don't know what they are talking about.

Well..I am not surprised, modeling in houdin isn´t as inituive, and not as slick as doing sculpt modelings, on the other hand
Zbrush isn´t parametric, and you just don´t model a city in zbrush do you, just as you rather model a character in zbrush permitted that you can retopo it.

It depends on what area you are modeling I guess, do you rather model an aeroplane, house, car in zbrush than jumping in to houdini and work it from there?

erikals
01-18-2019, 10:15 AM
far from as bad as you might think, Houdini modeling is better these days, and still improving


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvRfEeS7MQ


try this in LightWave. https://i.imgur.com/QOfCnjn.gif

Ma3rk
01-18-2019, 11:32 AM
Since this is somewhat relevant, thought I'd post a section of an e-message reply I got the other day. This is from Robt. Lansdale of Okino Computer Graphics, i.e. Polytrans.

> Any plan to eventually support the newer Lightwave object format, LWO3 I believe?

Thanks for asking. Simple and short answer: no because there would be next to
zero demand.

I know of LW unlike most others. Basically we devoted all of 1993 to 1999 to
completely clone LightWave within Okino software. I would term those the
"LightWave, 3ds Max, Softimage|3D days". LW basically died in 1999 when its
two developer and support team left Newtek to create LW 2.0 which came to be
known as MODO. Thereafter, all of our sales went to MAX and Maya until the
total meltdown of the DCC/Animation industry in 2005 when everyone went broke.
Thereafter, everyone moved to Keyshot and Cinema-4D. So, since about 1998,
almost every sale we make is for C4D. I may see or hear of a LW user, at most,
2 or 3 times each year, along the same frequency of those using SketchUp, Maya
and Electric Image.

Financially, it costs about $15k/month/developer and no conversion project
ever takes a few weeks. LW 5.6 and 6.0 took most of the 1990s to complete and
we only, barely, recouped its costs from all our 3ds Max users who wanted to
scoop up the LW 3D assets which were being sold back in the day.
_____

Since the start of this thread was regarding the debate to unify Modeler & Layout, allow me to chime in that. Most emphatically NO!

Again NO! Frankly, doing that would be like trying to do engine repair while driving down the freeway.

Put another way, if you have your Internet, TV & phone all bundled to the same service & that goes out ... Exactly what happened to a lot of SoCal yesterday with the rain (not me as I keep everything separate for that very reason).

If absolutely everything you do is entirely within Lightwave that's one thing, but in this day & age, rarely are you NOT using assets from somewhere else, done in complely different software, and who knows what export options are being used. I've been working with some absolutely huge model files lately (2-3 Gb). Some apps are perfectly fine with them, but not all play well with Lightwave.

So if you have a problematic model that's crashing a Unified Lightwave, what are you going to do? Had that very scenario this week. Opened just the model in Modeler, fixed the issue, (Layout can't handle huge subD hair model objects apparently) and Layout was once again happy. That wasn't possible in Layout simply toggling the Subpatch option as Layout would hang. It's primarily a memory issue I think as using MipMaps can be a problem too on this system.

Ztreem
01-18-2019, 11:49 AM
Well..I am not surprised, modeling in houdin isn´t as inituive, and not as slick as doing sculpt modelings, on the other hand
Zbrush isn´t parametric, and you just don´t model a city in zbrush do you, just as you rather model a character in zbrush permitted that you can retopo it.

It depends on what area you are modeling I guess, do you rather model an aeroplane, house, car in zbrush than jumping in to houdini and work it from there?

I agree, that it is depending very much on what you do for type of modeling, this also why this list is stupid.
They state that the best modeling app for all skill levels. Not general 3d app, only modeling. I read that as from newbie to pro. So if you gonna model something in 3d either as a newbie or a pro, houdini is no.2 and Zbrush that is a pure modeling app is last on the list. Maybe that is true but I have a hard time beliving it.

Ztreem
01-18-2019, 11:57 AM
far from as bad as you might think, Houdini modeling is better these days, and still improving


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvRfEeS7MQ


try this in LightWave. https://i.imgur.com/QOfCnjn.gif

Try this in houdini.
https://youtu.be/IRBabc4hxn8

erikals
01-18-2019, 12:17 PM
fancy, now try this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx_kYEUvYCA

Rayek
01-18-2019, 12:21 PM
Since the start of this thread was regarding the debate to unify Modeler & Layout, allow me to chime in that. Most emphatically NO!

Again NO! Frankly, doing that would be like trying to do engine repair while driving down the freeway.

Put another way, if you have your Internet, TV & phone all bundled to the same service & that goes out ... Exactly what happened to a lot of SoCal yesterday with the rain (not me as I keep everything separate for that very reason).

If absolutely everything you do is entirely within Lightwave that's one thing, but in this day & age, rarely are you NOT using assets from somewhere else, done in complely different software, and who knows what export options are being used. I've been working with some absolutely huge model files lately (2-3 Gb). Some apps are perfectly fine with them, but not all play well with Lightwave.

So if you have a problematic model that's crashing a Unified Lightwave, what are you going to do? Had that very scenario this week. Opened just the model in Modeler, fixed the issue, (Layout can't handle huge subD hair model objects apparently) and Layout was once again happy. That wasn't possible in Layout simply toggling the Subpatch option as Layout would hang. It's primarily a memory issue I think as using MipMaps can be a problem too on this system.

Layout takes up ~200mb of RAM while running, and Modeler 172mb. A unified Lightwave probably would use around ~100mb less than Modeler and Layout running simultaneously because they would share much of the same code. Not to mention the GPU memory usage, which would be far less compared to having Modeler and Layout running at the same time on your system.

In short, a unified Lightwave would be rather more RAM and GPU efficient, unless you force yourself to having only Layout or Modeler open at any time. Besides, all the disadvantages of a unified system have been explained to death on these forums by now. It puts Lightwave in a distinct competitive disadvantage compared to other mainstream 3D DCC apps.

As for your import problem: none of the other DCC 3D apps seem to have that problem. Just because Layout can't import a model because of subD issues in this one anecdotal instance, doesn't mean that is a valid argument against unifying Lightwave. That is a problem of Layout and needs to be fixed by the development team.

Besides, in a unified Lightwave a Modeler work "room" would probably have given you the same options to fix import.

I have imported and worked with far bigger models than 3GB and created very heavy scenes in Cinema4D, Houdini, and Blender, maxing out my 48GB of ram over the years many times, and encountered no unexpected issues (excepting the usual ones related to GPU performance). If the competition can do this without major issues, then it's Newtek's job to make sure Layout can do that as well, if not better.

Ztreem
01-18-2019, 01:06 PM
fancy, now try this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx_kYEUvYCA

I can’t as I don’t have Houdini or Zbrush. But the video gave me some ideas I want to try in Blender. :)
I did some modeling in Blender today at work and I love it, so much better than LightWave. The snapping and constrain to axis and fast workflow just makes the work fun.

SBowie
01-18-2019, 01:26 PM
And, they're off ...