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Birck Cox
01-03-2019, 03:30 PM
Hello, guys. I have another question, having to do with Hammers and Bananas. I'm trying to follow a tutorial wherein the demonstrator builds a banana out of an elongated box. I'd wager that most of you have done it or something like it, early in your LW days. In LW 2015, what tool do you use to turn the round banana into a ridged banana, with those 3 or 4 or 5 shallow ridges running lengthwise? The demo used "Edit Edges", which sounds good, but there's no step-by-step, and I couldn't get very far. Otherwise, the banana looks pretty banana-like, curved and tapered, with a stem, etc. But no ridges.

prometheus
01-03-2019, 04:18 PM
In order to work with edit edges properly, you need to have several edge loops nearby, that will support the edit edge move/contract to a pinch state.
usually you select the polys around one edge loop and hit "l" for connect..which will actuall make a loop edge in the center of the selected loop, then you can adjust the nearby edges with edit edges.
You can also select one edge loop only, and use edge bevel, it wonīt let you shrink or compress the edges good enough though, so you may want to drop that tool after the initial edge bevel ..then use edge edit.

with edge edit.manual move edits are done with left mouse click, to actual split in to a new edge loop, you right mouse click ...initially when you hover over the object, it will highlight the edges you are about to split..but be aware..the edge split is done perpendicular to the highlighed edge.

Point normal move can also work on a single edgeloop if you want to lift a certain edge loop as a higher ridge.

Always check youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lightwave+edge+edit

prometheus
01-03-2019, 04:43 PM
Donīt know which tutorial you followed, personally I would just use the capsule tool in Lightwave with 6 sides, 4 segments and 4 divisions.
Use spline guide to bend it, then use poly normal move to inflate it to proper thickness of the banana Versus length then..
use edit edge right mouse to create new edges, and left mouse move to compress to a ridge.

erikals
01-03-2019, 08:22 PM
multiple ways, here is one >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka3EfVuC_VE


Point normal move can also work on a single edgeloop if you want to lift a certain edge loop as a higher ridge.
yes, i use this quite a lot when Action Center Selection + Scale won't work.

ccclarke
01-04-2019, 04:51 AM
In order to work with edit edges properly, you need to have several edge loops nearby, that will support the edit edge move/contract to a pinch state.
usually you select the polys around one edge loop and hit "l" for connect..which will actuall make a loop edge in the center of the selected loop, then you can adjust the nearby edges with edit edges.
You can also select one edge loop only, and use edge bevel, it wonīt let you shrink or compress the edges good enough though, so you may want to drop that tool after the initial edge bevel ..then use edge edit.

with edge edit.manual move edits are done with left mouse click, to actual split in to a new edge loop, you right mouse click ...initially when you hover over the object, it will highlight the edges you are about to split..but be aware..the edge split is done perpendicular to the highlighed edge.

Point normal move can also work on a single edgeloop if you want to lift a certain edge loop as a higher ridge.

Always check youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lightwave+edge+edit


To minimize confusion, the correct keyboard shortcut key for the Connect tool is "L".

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/Combine+-+Connect

prometheus
01-04-2019, 07:26 AM
To minimize confusion, the correct keyboard shortcut key for the Connect tool is "L".

https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/Combine+-+Connect

No I donīt think so..that wouldnīt work, the correct shortcut Is "l" and not "L"

To further make it clear, you mentioned the shortcut as being a Capital letter..that means shift L, and that doesnīt work.
it is a Lower case letter version of L, and itīs not " I " nor " i" either.

I know the doc says "L" but mine are set to "l" I could be wrong if I have changed them myself, but I donīt think so...and if I havenīt, then the docs are describing it differently...maybe to avoid confusion with the capital letter of i.

Check this shortcut reference, which also has "l"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwjj9-yVrNTfAhVHjSwKHYAOCoIQFjAEegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.newtek.com%2Fattachment.p hp%3Fattachmentid%3D140064%26d%3D1518369467&usg=AOvVaw2vXxpcEWoYTZbXNPQp0UUw

All the standard a-z letters are in lower case letters, unless any specic function like freeze "D" is a capital letter to indicate you need to use shift-D .

prometheus
01-04-2019, 07:41 AM
multiple ways, here is one >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka3EfVuC_VE


yes, i use this quite a lot when Action Center Selection + Scale won't work.

Yep..that banana and model workflow is quite good.
Thanks for taking the time and recording it.

Birck Cox
01-06-2019, 07:06 AM
Hi, guys, I'm still working on my neverending banana, after perfecting my hammer head, and I have a new question. Most of my banana instructions are coming from Dan Ablan's Essential LWv.9, wherein he starts with a box, then uses a bevel on the corners to establish the ridges. One tool he walks us through is the use of Set Value to bring all of a mashup cluster of displaced polys at one end of the banana into alignment along one gridline-he straightens out a badly mangled mesh by alternating modes between Mouse and Selection, then inputting a numeric value to bring all the points into the same plane. It looks like a really useful tool, but the toot just presents us with the information needed to make it work in that tutorial. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial or article on how to read the grid, figure the numbers, pick the mode, etc.?

ccclarke
01-06-2019, 07:34 AM
Set Value (V) is used to position selected points, edges, or polys on a common X, Y, Z plane.

First, select the points, edges, or polys to be positioned, move the cursor to the position you want them to align with, read the X, Y, or Z value from the Position box in the bottom left corner of the Modeler window, press "V" to bring up the tool, enter the cursor coordinate, select the axis in the Set Value tool panel, and press "OK." If things go sideways, check the entered values, or axis.

CC

ccclarke
01-06-2019, 07:38 AM
No I donīt think so..that wouldnīt work, the correct shortcut Is "l" and not "L"

To further make it clear, you mentioned the shortcut as being a Capital letter..that means shift L, and that doesnīt work.
it is a Lower case letter version of L, and itīs not " I " nor " i" either.

I know the doc says "L" but mine are set to "l" I could be wrong if I have changed them myself, but I donīt think so...and if I havenīt, then the docs are describing it differently...maybe to avoid confusion with the capital letter of i.

Check this shortcut reference, which also has "l"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwjj9-yVrNTfAhVHjSwKHYAOCoIQFjAEegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.newtek.com%2Fattachment.p hp%3Fattachmentid%3D140064%26d%3D1518369467&usg=AOvVaw2vXxpcEWoYTZbXNPQp0UUw

All the standard a-z letters are in lower case letters, unless any specic function like freeze "D" is a capital letter to indicate you need to use shift-D .

The standard LW convention for Connect is "L", which is as per the docs; the tool has been assigned "L" for as long as I've been using LW.

However comma, looking at this from your point of view, we're both right - The Configure Keys menu lists it as "l" - lowercase "L". This is somewhat misleading, since L requires the shift key to be used. LW docs use upper case to denote shortcut keys, which is the way I write them for tutorials, etc.

"I" and "i" are the same key as opposed to L and l which look similar and can lead to confusion, especially on a computer screen. In most cases, using the upper case to denote a key minimizes it. (Or should!) I think this was Newtek's intent.

MonroePoteet
01-06-2019, 08:10 AM
The standard LW convention for Connect is "L", which is as per the docs; the tool has been assigned "L" for as long as I've been using LW. Changing your configs to call it something else is your version only, and only serves to confuse a a beginner trying to learn the tool.

Sorry, but the default keyboard shortcut for Connect is LOWER-CASE l not capital L and has been since at least LW11.6.4:

143825 LW11.6.4

143826 LW2015.3

143827 LW2018.0.7

The LW2018 documentation is incorrect in saying the default shortcut key for Connect is capital L. The LW2015 documentation (page 1478) correctly indicates that lower-case l should be pressed to invoke Connect. The LW11 manuals don't indicate the shortcut keys.

mTp

P.S. cross-posted while ccclarke was adding his addendum to indicate the confusion over upper-case L vs. lower-case l

prometheus
01-06-2019, 09:01 AM
The standard LW convention for Connect is "L", which is as per the docs; the tool has been assigned "L" for as long as I've been using LW.

However comma, looking at this from your point of view, we're both right - The Configure Keys menu lists it as "l" - lowercase "L". This is somewhat misleading, since L requires the shift key to be used. LW docs use upper case to denote shortcut keys, which is the way I write them for tutorials, etc.

"I" and "i" are the same key as opposed to L and l which look similar and can lead to confusion, especially on a computer screen. In most cases, using the upper case to denote a key minimizes it. (Or should!) I think this was Newtek's intent.

What..now I am not following you at all?
you say the opposite, that it is misleading that is in the configure Keys menu is listed as " l " or "L" ? since that that would require the shift key to be used, ..that is what I said about the "L" but you mix it with the notion that "l " is missleading.

Try follow the doc you refer too, which is Capital " L" that means shift-l to get a capital letter ..and you will end up with the lathe tool instead of connect.

Donīt see how this would ever have been default for ages?
Aslo check monroePoteetīs reply and check lw shortcut referendum

prometheus
01-06-2019, 09:29 AM
for instance, check this ref...which is off the charts, having both shift + "L" as for Lathe and shift + "l" as for connect..in essential the same thing, but two different operations..and in which case they are wrong.
https://defkey.com/lightwave-3d-shortcuts

Foremost to determine, if you have default settings...what happens when you press "l"
connect right?
and what happens when you press shift + "l"
lathe right?

Birck Cox
01-06-2019, 02:51 PM
Thanks, CCC. It works. Pretty straightforward. It helped me finally get a decent-looking banana done. In grey, of course. Now I need to work on ridges that look like banana skin ridges rather than splines.

jwiede
01-06-2019, 05:54 PM
The LW2018 documentation is incorrect in saying the default shortcut key for Connect is capital L. The LW2015 documentation (page 1478) correctly indicates that lower-case l should be pressed to invoke Connect.

Regardless why they chose to use it, the fact remains that there are both "l" and "shift-l" shortcuts, and therefore they need to be differentiated. Expecting users to know, a priori, that where the docs say "L" they means "l" not "shift+l", is both confusing and inconsistent.

The best answer is to cite keystrokes using a "keystroke"-type font ("Keystroke" (https://fonts2u.com/keystroke.font)), and ALWAYS cite modified keystrokes as "<modifier key icon> + <letter key icon>" (f.e. shift-l as "(shift) + (L)")-- that's why such fonts exist, and leaves no ambiguity about precise keystroke combinations needed.

COBRASoft
01-06-2019, 07:15 PM
Most apps (including ours) use 'SHIFT + L' instead of just a capital 'L'. Just 'L' is confusing what you have to type and if you look at your keyboard, you'll see a capital 'L' for writing a small 'l' if SHIFT or CAPS LOCK is not pressed.

Microsoft does it: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keyboard-shortcuts
Apple does it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236

BeeVee
01-07-2019, 03:28 AM
This is what the wiki conventions page (https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/Conventions) says:

"Keyboard shortcuts are displayed on the right side of buttons, if applicable. Keystrokes that need the Shift key are displayed in uppercase if they are letters. (e.g., A) Unshifted keystrokes are displayed in lowercase. (e.g., a) For example, M is Shift + M and & would be Shift + 7 on a US keyboard. This manual, however, always explicitly indicates when the Shift key should be used and shortcut letters are shown as upper case.
You need to be aware of the state of your Caps Lock. If this is active, it can affect upper and lowercase keyboard shortcuts."

If there are ones I have mislabelled in the documentation, please post bug reports.

B

MonroePoteet
01-07-2019, 12:44 PM
Documentation "bug" reported for Connect.

mTp

BeeVee
01-07-2019, 01:30 PM
But it really isn't a bug. I was asking for reports where I hadn't put the Shift, Ctrl or Alt. Not that I should change all the shortcuts to lower case letters or add a "Lower-case-L" to keep it clear that I'm not suggesting upper case I or 1 both of which can be confused depending on the font used. Like I say "This manual, however, always explicitly indicates when the Shift key should be used and shortcut letters are shown as upper case." I have made sure the conventions page is referenced on the install page of the wiki. Please let me know if there's a better way (changing the typeface isn't an option either).

B

MonroePoteet
01-07-2019, 02:35 PM
This is what the wiki conventions page (https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/Conventions) says:

"Keyboard shortcuts are displayed on the right side of buttons, if applicable. Keystrokes that need the Shift key are displayed in uppercase if they are letters. (e.g., A) Unshifted keystrokes are displayed in lowercase. (e.g., a) For example, M is Shift + M and & would be Shift + 7 on a US keyboard. This manual, however, always explicitly indicates when the Shift key should be used and shortcut letters are shown as upper case.
You need to be aware of the state of your Caps Lock. If this is active, it can affect upper and lowercase keyboard shortcuts."

If there are ones I have mislabelled in the documentation, please post bug reports.

B

Well, OK, but the following sentence in the paragraph above seems contradictory to me:

"Unshifted keystrokes are displayed in lowercase. (e.g., a)"

I guess my recommendation would be that the documentation shows the same thing as the Edit=>Edit Shorcut Keys... panel does, which shows lowercase characters (e.g. "l") and SHIFT+L for capitalized shortcuts (see prior screen captures). If the "convention" was that the shortcut keys were surrounded by double-quotes and (perhaps) bolded, then they'd be clearly defined, IMO.

But I accept closure of the "bug".

mTp

BeeVee
01-07-2019, 04:50 PM
Well, OK, but the following sentence in the paragraph above seems contradictory to me:

"Unshifted keystrokes are displayed in lowercase. (e.g., a)"


But that's talking about in the user interface for the software. It has to be said though that there are problems here too. Look at Size and Stretch - Size is shown as +H and Stretch is h. Does that mean "Shift + Capital H for Size"? It seems like the key is only lower case if it has no modifiers otherwise it's in upper case, even if the modifier is Shift. But hey, I only need to fix the wiki, right? :) (to be fair, it *does* say that in the description too)

B

MonroePoteet
01-07-2019, 05:57 PM
Well, as I said I accept the bug closure, so the documentation probably doesn't need to be fixed. Once the convention is known (to me, for example :) ) then the consistency is there and the meaning is clear. Just inconsistent with the interface.

Perhaps the paragraph referenced above could be clarified by explicitly including "In the LW User Interface" and a bit of whitespace. Perhaps something like:



In the LightWave User Interface, keyboard shortcuts are displayed on the right side of buttons, if applicable. Keystrokes that need the Shift key are displayed in uppercase if they are letters. (e.g., A) Unshifted keystrokes are displayed in lowercase. (e.g., a) For example, M is Shift + M and & would be Shift + 7 on a US keyboard.

This manual, however, always explicitly indicates when the Shift key should be used and shortcut letters are always shown as upper case.

You need to be aware of the state of your Caps Lock. If this is active, it can affect upper and lowercase keyboard shortcuts.

Or, leave it alone. :)

mTp



mTp

Tim Parsons
01-07-2019, 06:05 PM
You need to be aware of the state of your Caps Lock. If this is active, it can affect upper and lowercase keyboard shortcuts."

That's why all my keyboards have the Caps Lock key missing. :)

COBRASoft
01-07-2019, 07:54 PM
This lower / uppercase discussion is kinda funny... Both Microsoft and Apple do it the same way. They have over 2 billion users combined (probably even more).
One would think following that standard is a 'universal' accepted way of presenting shortcuts to their users.

BeeVee
01-08-2019, 02:43 AM
@mTp,

I made the changes you suggested, thanks. I think it has made the documentation better for everyone :)

B

MonroePoteet
01-08-2019, 07:37 AM
@mTp,

I made the changes you suggested, thanks. I think it has made the documentation better for everyone :)

B

OK thanks! Sorry for rocking the boat, but it was a bit confusing to me.

mTp

MonroePoteet
01-08-2019, 07:49 AM
This lower / uppercase discussion is kinda funny... Both Microsoft and Apple do it the same way. They have over 2 billion users combined (probably even more).
One would think following that standard is a 'universal' accepted way of presenting shortcuts to their users.

Well, neither Microsoft nor Apple differentiate between lowercase and uppercase single-letter shortcut keys which is the topic of discussion above (since LightWave DOES differentiate these), so there isn't any "standard" to follow as you suggest. In the documents referenced above from Microsoft and Apple, the only time SHIFT appears in a shortcut is when it's combined with another modifier or two (e.g. CTRL-SHIFT-A).

And, for me, it is absolutely *ludicrous* to suggest that Microsoft and Apple between them define ANY sort of "standard" regarding keyboards, shortcuts, mouse clicks and so forth. ALT vs. Command (there's not even a Command key on Microsoft keyboards), Apple using little symbols to represent keystroke modifiers (like up-arrow for SHIFT, a wierd little flowery dohicky for Command, a slanted stair-step dohikey for ALT), completely different shortcut keys even for the same operation (e.g. Apples uses Command-P while Microsoft uses CTRL-P), etc.

Microsoft and Apple together defining a "universal standard" for keyboard shortcuts: now THAT'S funny!! :)

mTp

COBRASoft
01-08-2019, 12:46 PM
Why are you pressing so hard on this? Like I said before, look at your keyboard, how is the lowercase L symbolised there? I never suggested that Apple and Microsoft defined that standard, they just use it like most do.
I'll give you this though, on Linux, it's mostly written with a small 'l'. But alas, Lightwave is not available on Linux.

And euhm, you would be surprised how much Microsoft and Apple have in common... We are not in the old world anymore where Apple and Microsoft were closed silos. Today, Microsoft is working together with a lot of 'competition', even Google.

jwiede
01-08-2019, 02:11 PM
This lower / uppercase discussion is kinda funny... Both Microsoft and Apple do it the same way. They have over 2 billion users combined (probably even more).
One would think following that standard is a 'universal' accepted way of presenting shortcuts to their users.

There's a key distinction between their scenarios and the LW scenario: In the docs you cited, neither Microsoft or Apple are describing situations where just regular, unmodified alphabet keystrokes are assigned to commands -- they're _always_ dealing with "modified keystrokes" for alphabet keys. The concerns here are slightly different, and while it isn't a huge difference, it's a relevant one in context.

When such "unmodified alphabet keystroke" situations DO arise in their docs (it's not common, but does happen), both Apple and Microsoft tend towards maximum clarity in their descriptions, using keystroke fonts (sometimes), or otherwise clearly and explicitly disambiguating the precise keystroke(s) required.

P.S. A single data point from each company isn't much proof of "standardization", de facto or otherwise. If both docs cited or referenced the same convention statement/doc, the situation would be a bit different, but that's not the case here.

Ztreem
01-08-2019, 02:45 PM
Which one of Microsoft or Apple has the round banana?

Hmmm... this must be the shortcut key you all are looking for.
143838

BeeVee
01-09-2019, 11:48 AM
When such "unmodified alphabet keystroke" situations DO arise in their docs (it's not common, but does happen), both Apple and Microsoft tend towards maximum clarity in their descriptions, using keystroke fonts (sometimes), or otherwise clearly and explicitly disambiguating the precise keystroke(s) required.

If you could point me to examples I would happily take a look. For right now, I think that marking a keyboard shortcut as "L" might get mistaken for "Shift-l", but just marking it as "l", in the font I have available to me, would be worse. Equally, if people did actually rtfm they could compare to using the keyboard shortcut for Box or Ball, which they might know are Shift-X and Shift-O respectively and thus deduce that if there's no Shift- before the L perhaps it is just a lower case L made easy to read.

Anyway, let's leave this now because we are going round in circles. If you have something pm me. :)

B

jwiede
01-09-2019, 05:00 PM
Equally, if people did actually rtfm they could compare to using the keyboard shortcut for Box or Ball, which they might know are Shift-X and Shift-O respectively and thus deduce that if there's no Shift- before the L perhaps it is just a lower case L made easy to read.
(I added underlining above, as highlight)

I think the way you've handled it is adequate, I was simply pointing out to COBRASoft that the citations used were dealing with a distinctly different scenario than this one. I'll see what I can find, and send via PM.

[nit-picky]
Above's an example of "presumption of a priori knowledge of LW" that I've been pointing out as a recurring issue in the docs. The customers who are most likely confused about the "shortcut convention issue" are also unlikely to have the knowledge in question to resolve it -- the users who will recognize such patterns aren't the ones likely to be confused about such conventions.
[/nit-picky]

I have deep respect and appreciation for your efforts, just trying to help (and too spot-on as an example to pass up :devil:).

erikals
01-09-2019, 05:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st6-DgWeuos

BeeVee
01-10-2019, 01:54 AM
@jwiede understood and appreciated :D Unfortunately, with as sprawling a mass as the LightWave docs are perhaps the solution is to have a page entitled "So, is this your first version of LightWave?" where the conventions are set out - the a priori in that case would be that you at least read that page :)

B

djwaterman
01-10-2019, 06:19 AM
Just viewing the forums and saw this topic, so I'll link to a video I did some years ago showing the modeling of a banana, perhaps it's similar to others already posted but it can't hurt to add it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=419&v=1s5HnETRC2c

BeeVee
01-10-2019, 06:29 AM
What? You're actually dragging this thread back on-topic?! How very dare you! :D

B