PDA

View Full Version : AI in the 3d industry.The end for Artists or maybe a new beginning?



Adrian Kulawik
01-01-2019, 05:13 AM
Hi.

I've just finished writing an article about artificial intelligence in the 3d industry.
What do you think about it?
Write your feelings on this topic.

Article:

http://3dprocomp.blogspot.com/2019/01/ai-in-3d-industrythe-end-for-artists-or.html

Best Regards.
Adrian

TheLexx
01-01-2019, 05:31 AM
Andrew Price did an interesting talk giving his thoughts. I wouldn't describe AI as an end or a beginning, but more a turning curve. It might make some of the bigger studios sweat, but allow the little guy to do more. William Vaughan once wrote that there is no magic "do my job" button to click, and I think that will remain the case. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlgLxSLsYWQ

MonroePoteet
01-01-2019, 07:48 AM
IMO, it'd be better if we called it IA rather than AI: "Intelligent Assist" rather than "Artificial Intelligence". Having access to a so-called "intelligent" tool to assist in de-noising, pixel interpolation, even to identify opportunities for focusing the collision detection granularity (one of my pet peeves!), etc. are fine and could be extrordinarily valuable.

"Art" has a "deep soul" or "deep history" which differentiates it from just producing or creating stuff. When I'm discussing art with a friend or friends at dinner, I like to wad up my napkin, throw it on the table, and claim it's art. And, in some form, it *is* art because it has intention behind the creation, but on the otherhand it's *not* art because it's purely algorithmic (wad up the napkin, throw it on the table: repeat). If I program a computer to randomly dip a paintbrush in various colors and create random patterns on a canvas, is that "art". Why do we use tools like LW (or a typewriter, or a paintbrush, or a camera) in the first place?

So, as I said, I think some of the stigma associated with "articial intelligence" may be alleviated in favor of human creativity by calling them "intelligent assists".

As always, just my opinion!

mTp

pming
01-02-2019, 01:26 AM
Hiya!

I can see it being used as MonroePoteet indicates; as an intelligent "macro" to do something that would otherwise be easy, but time consuming. For example, being able to "feed in" a dozen pictures of a particular landscape (overgrown forest, or maybe rolling plains, or edges of a lake/pond, etc), and then tell the "AI" to "Generate Appropriate Ground Cover" by using assets in designated folders. The AI could take a "look" at all the pictures and think "Aaahhh...ok, here are a bunch of common things I'm seeing..." and then choose appropriate objects and populate the scene/designated-area.

I can see AI being useful for that. For an artist to tell it "I need some textures that look sort of 'creepy'. Here are some of what I mean...[plug in a folder of images]. Build me a texture for an old inside building wall"...and then have it look, evaluate, and create or choose. Because when I get to the point of trying to find some particular texture, or filing up a 'blank area in the composition' with greebles, nurnies and doodads...THAT takes far too much time.

But an AI "creating a model, scene, textures, composition and then animating something with feeling and emotion"? We are a LONG way off from that. And if/when that day comes, I think we'll have more serious things to worry about rather than if we have a job or not... ;)

shrox
01-02-2019, 05:35 PM
We human artists have one advantage over machines. Machines can't do drugs.

prometheus
01-02-2019, 06:50 PM
We human artists have one advantage over machines. Machines can't do drugs.

Ahh..I thought that was an disadvantage for us humans (in general)
Just visit Swedish subways any given friday on summers...something aint right:D

But of course, for artistic sense enhancement, why not.

prometheus
01-02-2019, 06:54 PM
Hiya!

I can see it being used as MonroePoteet indicates; as an intelligent "macro" to do something that would otherwise be easy, but time consuming. For example, being able to "feed in" a dozen pictures of a particular landscape (overgrown forest, or maybe rolling plains, or edges of a lake/pond, etc), and then tell the "AI" to "Generate Appropriate Ground Cover" by using assets in designated folders. The AI could take a "look" at all the pictures and think "Aaahhh...ok, here are a bunch of common things I'm seeing..." and then choose appropriate objects and populate the scene/designated-area.

I can see AI being useful for that. For an artist to tell it "I need some textures that look sort of 'creepy'. Here are some of what I mean...[plug in a folder of images]. Build me a texture for an old inside building wall"...and then have it look, evaluate, and create or choose. Because when I get to the point of trying to find some particular texture, or filing up a 'blank area in the composition' with greebles, nurnies and doodads...THAT takes far too much time.

But an AI "creating a model, scene, textures, composition and then animating something with feeling and emotion"? We are a LONG way off from that. And if/when that day comes, I think we'll have more serious things to worry about rather than if we have a job or not... ;)

vegetation and land creation, forrest..automaticly created by "AI" you just feed in some various parameters, certain climat, heat, humidity...how much of an area that is covered in shadows from larger plants..ergo the other smaller vegetation or grass may grow o not grow in a certain direction etc.

But really, we still only got a few goo geo creation tools, getting in to algorithms covering what type of soil and vegetaion and how the tree species should be..a massive undertaking to code, not even
vue with itīs eco system is anywhere close.

erikals
01-02-2019, 07:21 PM
IMO, it'd be better if we called it IA rather than AI: "Intelligent Assist" rather than "Artificial Intelligence".
Totally agree. Ai is just too far away right now. Maybe in 30 years.


We human artists have one advantage over machines. Machines can't do drugs.
Wanna bet? :beer:

Marander
01-03-2019, 01:03 AM
It depends what is meant with AI. Nowadays a lot of of technology is titled as AI, smart phone cameras, video / render denoisers, simple chat bots, puppets like Sophia etc. That's marketing BS to me.

Sophia - a big scam by the dubious Hanson Robotics - is a good example how people are tricked with fake AI, Sophia is just a mechatronic puppet running a chat bot using predefined scripts but the creators claim that it's alive, has emotions, is learning and able to think.

However real AI made great progress (neuronal networks / simulating animal brains or machine / deep learning) in the last couple of years. About a lot of stuff (if not the majority) we have probably never heard of because its confidential research or military application.

This video is from 04/17 but still interesting about what I consider to be AI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQO2PcEW9BY

In the next couple of years, a lot of lower end jobs will disappear certainly.

For 'AI' the 3D industry, the following presentation of Andrew Price is quite informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlgLxSLsYWQ

Edit: Sorry, just noticed the Andrew Price aka Blender Guru AI video link was already posted.

ccclarke
01-03-2019, 04:57 AM
Ahh..I thought that was an disadvantage for us humans (in general)
Just visit Swedish subways any given friday on summers...something aint right:D

But of course, for artistic sense enhancement, why not.

As long as we're quoting William Vaughan in this thread, he once told our class, "Drugs don't make you a better artist. They just make you think you are."

MonroePoteet
01-03-2019, 09:26 AM
As long as we're quoting William Vaughan in this thread, he once told our class, "Drugs don't make you a better artist. They just make you think you are."

Of course, we could also substitute the word "intelligence" for "drugs":

"Intelligence doesn't make you a better artist. It just makes you think you are."

Drugs work for some people (e.g. caffeine, alcohol, sugar, etc. if not "recreational drugs") and they don't for others. A "one size fits all" approach to Art is pretty debilitating.

Yet again, just my opinion!

mTp

erikals
01-03-2019, 10:13 AM
"Drugs don't make you a better artist. They just make you think you are."
i'll copy him on this. i've done some in the past, legally that is, because of ADHD/ADD. and another by mistake.

no question about an effect, but certainly is totally hyped as far as art goes.

dreams give you way more impressive illusions. there are also programs/techniques that let you control your dreams.

prometheus
01-03-2019, 11:40 AM
i'll copy him on this. i've done some in the past, legally that is, because of ADHD/ADD. and another by mistake.

no question about an effect, but certainly is totally hyped as far as art goes.

dreams give you way more impressive illusions. there are also programs/techniques that let you control your dreams.

I can agree to it as well..at least I do perceive it like that from my perspective.

And for boasting..
When I was around 13-15 years old, comparing myself to many others in our classes..which often smoked pot, I didnīt and still donīt, they really had half of the imagination to that of what I had..or at least
they couldnīt portray it in a good way into their art in our class.

Ivé always been a daydreamer, and reality could..still can simple dissolve and all that is my daydream, and I also become more imaginary creative closer to being tired, so being up late may help get that connection.
This has advantages sometimes, but can also impose problems where I donīt seem to listen in certain social events, Im kind of in my own bubble.

I did actuall try a joint at the age of 30, thatīs pretty stupid, why risc falling in to a dangerous habit at that age?..I took two inhales or something, didnīt do much for me..I became relaxed a bit more..but nothing that did anything else for me, and I thought that wasnīt something for me.
And Dali?
http://www.dailyartmagazine.com/artists-who-used-drugs/

I donīt drink beer at all, hardly any wine, donīt like champagne on new years eve either, every third or fourth month in summer..I may sip on a nice cider with 4,5 % alcohol..but it is rare.

Coffe may be the only real intake drug I get, but that is only in the morning..and when working 3 times a day.

Otherwise...3D is kind of a drug, to investigate what you can do with it etc.

shrox
01-03-2019, 11:59 AM
I stand by my statement, machines can't do drugs. They can't even enjoy a Pepsi.

erikals
01-03-2019, 04:45 PM
http://www.dailyartmagazine.com/artists-who-used-drugs/

- Salvador Dali
Interrupted sleep. i've done similar things by accident, certainly can create fascinating effects. one should be careful doing that too much though. reason being >
in a science program where students were continuously woken up once they fell asleep, all of them went bananas, some way or another, until they were allowed to sleep.
Dali didn't do this though, afaik, he only did it once or so every day, so quite safe.

- Damien Hirst
“I started taking cocaine and drink… I turned into a babbling ******* wreck.”
this can also happen with lots of caffeine and alcohol. been there, and certainly taught me not to do that again.


the Dali method using Dreams is by far the best method, and also certainly the safest method.
people just don't know about the Dali method.


I stand by my statement, machines can't do drugs. They can't even enjoy a Pepsi.
when a digital machine is built based on the same principles as humans, it certainly can. however, sure, won't happen in the first 30 years.
would that be a good thing though, once you get a machine that is 900% smarter than you? ... i would think not. it involves high risk.

TheLexx
01-03-2019, 05:11 PM
I am not a drug taker and I would not normally do this, but since you fellows insist on the subject :D here is an utterly fascinating TED talk by Graham Hancock (subsequently withdrawn) about the linkage between drugs and the evolution of art, featuring one of the biggest daddy of all hallucinatory narcotics. Just image a trip back from the jungle and jumping straight into a Lightwave session from that. Indeed, NT could pass round a brew for the devs in time for LW2020. :devil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w

erikals
01-03-2019, 05:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w
sure, drugs do have an effect. however once again you can achieve the same experience using Dali's method, essentially sleep, that involves no drugs.
the Dali method by far knocks out any other hallucination, but again, most don't know about it, not even this TedX guy it seems. interesting talk though, absolutely.

personally, i think he slips out a bit once he starts talking about the soul.
not saying there isn't one, but that means that all living things have souls, all down to the amoebae, and even molecules.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/ea/36/3bea36583c7bd749313dcccf1f4514ba.jpg

prometheus
01-03-2019, 05:46 PM
- Salvador Dali
Interrupted sleep. i've done similar things by accident, certainly can create fascinating effects. one should be careful doing that too much though. reason being >
in a science program where students were continuously woken up once they fell asleep, all of them went bananas, some way or another, until they were allowed to sleep.
Dali didn't do this though, afaik, he only did it once or so every day, so quite safe.

- Damien Hirst
“I started taking cocaine and drink… I turned into a babbling ******* wreck.”
this can also happen with lots of caffeine and alcohol. been there, and certainly taught me not to do that again.


the Dali method using Dreams is by far the best method, and also certainly the safest method.
people just don't know about the Dali method.


when a digital machine is built based on the same principles as humans, it certainly can. however, sure, won't happen in the first 30 years.
would that be a good thing though, once you get a machine that is 900% smarter than you? ... i would think not. it involves high risk.

I agree to a lot here.
getting in contact with your imagination, some of us may have it easier to just block out daily life, go in to daydreams..if you have that capacity..you should understand how much more effective your visions can be when you are almost in sleep mode..sort of tired but not exhausted, some music fed in to your brain..and off you go.

As for machines taking drugs, pretty pointless to speak of since no machine as far as I know have ever been constructed with anytthing close to a Autonomic nervous system, such a system would be in need of
a way to either organicly treat the chemicals, or with some technological advances in disecting many chemicals and react to them with simulated sensory based on how our brain reacts to it.

I Once was prompted by a Lightwave node wisard to try out some mushrooms..to expand my mind or something, but I really couldnīt see the point of that:D

Oh by the way..this was a cool movie by the way..at itīs time.
Altered states ..with William Hurt, he kind of was on a mission to find "'God" or creation or similar, ended up jumping out as a pre-humanoid in the end.

So beware of sleeping in water tanks and eating dangerous mushrooms:) and I have gone off topic really.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40FiMy-ak0k

erikals
01-03-2019, 06:23 PM
I have gone off topic really.
sorta, but imagination does play a role when it comes to Ai.
great inventions is always based upon that very ignition.

the sad thing about drugs is that it too often is used to relax nerves. but hey, maybe Ai in the near future will find a reliable solution. after it has occupied the last job on earth :)

https://i.imgur.com/5iDKqDX.gif https://i.imgur.com/fMb2Mjm.gif

prometheus
01-03-2019, 06:30 PM
sorta, but imagination does play a role when it comes to Ai.
great inventions is always based upon that very ignition.

the sad thing about drugs is that it too often is used to relax nerves. but hey, maybe Ai in the near future will find a reliable solution. after it has occupied the last job on earth :)

https://i.imgur.com/5iDKqDX.gif

Relaxing brain with alpha waves perhaps...lots of stuff on youtube to look for on that matter, though I havenīt had time to investigate it thoroughly.

erikals
01-03-2019, 06:46 PM
ah, alpha waves :) read about it way back.

yes, great technique. basically, relaxing music/sounds. also there is the asmr, works good for some (me) also.
also conjunctive techniques. many options.

prometheus
01-05-2019, 12:18 PM
Recalling.

AI in Endorphin
AI in Massive

Where Endorphin had figures moving based on certain AI algorithms and dynamics.
Where Massive implemented AI for recognizing agents in itīs environment.

Has anybody seen AI movement in 3d animals, where algorithms governs how a monkey would walk, or how a cheetah runs, or how a horse would run?

erikals
01-05-2019, 12:36 PM
AI in Endorphin
AI in Massive
none of these are Ai, unfortunately.

however, this one is based on some Ai.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn4nRCC9TwQ

TheLexx
01-05-2019, 01:08 PM
Maybe this was mentioned elsewhere, but 3D rigging and animation might simply become auto-extracted from reference video footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGm3hF_BlYM&t=2m

prometheus
01-05-2019, 01:18 PM
none of these are Ai, unfortunately.

however, this one is based on some Ai.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn4nRCC9TwQ

Not sure what you mean is Proper AI and what it takes to qualify?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MASSIVE_(software)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin_(software)

Deep learning is another aspect, but I donīt think itīs an absolute to have it in the So called AI for computers.
Thanks for that link by the way.

erikals
01-05-2019, 02:14 PM
well, just my take on it. there are different opinions to what can be called Ai. today just about everything gets an Ai stamp to boost sales or popularity.

imo.
Smart Ai is still a bit ahead, that's when you can ask an Ai algorithm to do the homework for you.
Intelligent Ai is when it in addition to this becomes inventive. (Einstein / finding undiscovered dimensions)
Conscious Ai, who knows, 50 years form now.
i believe consciousness is more a definition of the brain fooling you though. so one could say that everything is conscious, or rather, nothing is truly conscious, rather based on algorithms and reflections that fool you. (just like feelings).

erikals
01-05-2019, 03:42 PM
regarding drugs/intelligence, you should read this article about Nikola Tesla.
https://www.quora.com/What-mental-disorders-did-Tesla-have

i wouldn't recommend going that route though. too much stress.

this is somewhat what Dali did, push himself to a limit.

i've done the same, and the result can be both awesome, and scary.

to understand more, you can look more into how left / right hemisphere operates alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLzP1VCANo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8
and the midbrain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQetOVB_VZo

ConjureBunny
01-05-2019, 08:00 PM
Tools are definitely evolving. Higher quality stuff than used to be done on render farms, in days, can be done in real time in game engines.

AI, or in most cases Deep Learning, can do things like rotoscoping with freakish accuracy.

erikals
01-05-2019, 08:09 PM
AI, or in most cases Deep Learning, can do things like rotoscoping with freakish accuracy.
in the future it can even convert 2D movies to 3D movies, 4:3 to 16:9, and eventually make a whole episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation in VR.
and all cast would be regenerated perfectly in 3D of course, down to the pores, down to the hair strands, down to the iris.

if is not the question, when is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ladqJQLR2bA

ConjureBunny
01-05-2019, 08:54 PM
I was trying to find this one earlier. Check this out. Http://www.remove.bg

It does a hell of a good job.

erikals
01-05-2019, 09:20 PM
my tests didn't turn out quite as good, but great fun :) just a few years more and it will do a perfect job.

prometheus
01-05-2019, 10:30 PM
I was trying to find this one earlier. Check this out. Http://www.remove.bg

It does a hell of a good job.

tried it three times, big holes in a simple one colored dress, and another hole in another image, you canīt rely on it without human confirmation of it good enough to pass.
It does some great contour retoush, and for hair, but the fact that it fails on a simple red dress that is quite distinct from the background is worrying.
It runs fast though, I recall the photoshop verdus fluid mask which I tried some times, though it was a bit slow many years ago...probably improved now.

erikals
03-16-2019, 03:20 AM
regarding drugs/intelligence, you should read this article about Nikola Tesla.
https://www.quora.com/What-mental-disorders-did-Tesla-have

i wouldn't recommend going that route though. too much stress.

this is somewhat what Dali did, push himself to a limit.

i've done the same, and the result can be both awesome, and scary.

to understand more, you can look more into how left / right hemisphere operates alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLzP1VCANo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8
and the midbrain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQetOVB_VZo

finally found the scientific term for this > Hypnagogia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia#Tetris_effect

MarkAH
03-16-2019, 09:48 AM
erikals:
Tesla made two major mistakes, ignored Maxwell, and didn't study geology.
In university we didn't cover Tesla much, just touched on some things he had done.
The impression I got from his work at Colorado Springs and Wardenclyffe was that he was trying to collect energy from the charge in the atmosphere.
That could actually work. But he thought he could transmit power through the ground. That is insane!

Art!
This monster Lightwave 3D is a tool for creating art.
But if it doesn't SAY SOMETHING, it isn't art.
Art conveys a message, emotional, philosophical, political.
You can make sounds and pictures, but you can only make art if you have something to say.

erikals
03-16-2019, 10:34 AM
i still feel Tesla was a pretty sharp knife though...

https://i.imgur.com/qr0vH3S.png


You can make sounds and pictures, but you can only make art if you have something to say.
agreed.

MarkAH
03-16-2019, 12:41 PM
Poor Nikola, he's either a cult hero or a fool.
Well, I do believe he was a coke head. Probably shouldn't say that but he was doing so well at first.
Now, Edison was doing foolish things too and his Direct Current power grid was a total failure.
But he made a lot of things work good.

A friend of mine who is a Tesla nut told me "Tesla had plans for a UFO".
I asked him what the U stands for.

erikals
03-16-2019, 02:56 PM
well, i for one think Tesla was pretty cool.
your belief that Tesla was a coke head, may i ask where that hypothesis arrived from, other than a wild guess?



A friend of mine who is a Tesla nut told me "Tesla had plans for a UFO".
I asked him what the U stands for.

you mean this?
it's not a UFO, nothing like that at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcCZ-4zgRVI

MarkAH
03-16-2019, 05:24 PM
I've read three biographies on Tesla, and his papers.
One of his biographers said he did coke.
It was legal, and pretty popular at the time.

And he went from being an excelent engineer, to just nuts.
He wrote some pretty humiliating letters to J.P. Morgan, begging, yes begging for more money.

That UFO thing is a good laugh. Actually I didn't watch the video, but that's not what I mean.
It was that statement. Of course if you have plans for something it can't be 'unidentified'.

Now, honestly, I don't know if you're joking.
I think he was pretty cool too. His best friend when he was a child was a cat.
Can't get more cool than that!

At Colorado Springs he was logging lightning events. Calculating how far away the strike was by the ratio of the timing of the flash to the sound.
He measured also the intensity and timing of the electromagnetic impulses and determined that it was creating standing waves.

And yet it didn't occur to him that he could use that energy, even when all the equipment he had there was sufficient for setting up circuits that could convert the charge on the atmosphere to electrical power. He had flat out lost his mind.

But why? That's why I believe it.

erikals
03-16-2019, 05:42 PM
Now, honestly, I don't know if you're joking.
I think he was pretty cool too. His best friend when he was a child was a cat.
Can't get more cool than that!
beware, lots of cat lovers on this forum. :)


I've read three biographies on Tesla, and his papers.
One of his biographers said he did coke.
It was legal, and pretty popular at the time.
even if that was true, it didn't make these other guys fall overboard.
except Edison perhaps, who has been accused of not being overly-empathic.
https://www.famousscientists.org/14-famous-scientists-inventors-who-experimented-with-drugs


anyway, i'll leave it at that. different opinions, that's all.
few deny Tesla wasn't like everyone else.
over and out.