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sublimationman
12-09-2018, 07:39 PM
OK, So I am no longer a typical user, I use 11.6.2 on Mac and 90% of what I do now is create 3D objects to 3D print or 3D carve. The other 10% being creating high res still images for advertising.

So, is there anything new and exiting for a non animator in Lightwave for me? Specifically has Modeler changed or improved? The boolean functions in 11.6 are the bane of my existence, with creating non watertight models and crashing on simple cuts. If these have been fixed then it would help me a lot.

But I don't want to spend the money if there are no fixes or really cool updates that will affect my personal workflow.

Thanks!

prometheus
12-09-2018, 08:00 PM
OK, So I am no longer a typical user, I use 11.6.2 on Mac and 90% of what I do now is create 3D objects to 3D print or 3D carve. The other 10% being creating high res still images for advertising.

So, is there anything new and exiting for a non animator in Lightwave for me? Specifically has Modeler changed or improved? The boolean functions in 11.6 are the bane of my existence, with creating non watertight models and crashing on simple cuts. If these have been fixed then it would help me a lot.

But I don't want to spend the money if there are no fixes or really cool updates that will affect my personal workflow.

Thanks!

Modeler hasnīt been updated much , some stuff to create in camera view for the purpose of rendering and animation...but that is of little relevance for stuff if you create 3d prints.
some live array tools, but thatīs it.
Depends on though, if you anyway use it 10& for advertising, the new lights and pbr materials including the new GI tracer should make surfacing and realistic renders much more believable.
So if the advertising you do..require an extra level of realism, you may want to upgrade..otherwise I would wait til they improve modeler a bit.

But for 3d prints, you should dive in to some free software out there.

raymondtrace
12-09-2018, 08:37 PM
Are you asking about upgrading the LW program or its plugins? Even if you don't upgrade to LW2018, there are many plugins you can obtain to upgrade LW's capabilities.

Ernest
12-09-2018, 10:33 PM
If you're still using the native booleans, you have to take a look at the 3rd Powers plugins. They have real time booleans and mesh stitchers for Modeler.
http://www.3rdpowers.com/

RebelHill
12-10-2018, 01:55 AM
For modelling not so much, but if you're doing final images for advertising, the new renderer is great.

3dworks
12-10-2018, 02:18 AM
i'm using LW2018 on mac and found opengl and large data handling much faster compared to LW2018. i can't comment for 3d printing, but in the archviz area it's a welcome improvement. for me the biggest advantage is using oliver's fantastic OD toolset under LW2018, whci improves most workflows because of totally new programming hooks in 2018. i'm mostly using octane for rendering, so the new renderer dosn't make a big differenece in my workflow here.

on the dark side, if you ever used denis pont's nodes and plugins (and who didn't), old versions are not working with it, but they have been recently updated to 2018. the problem is that thy have not been compiled for mac and maybe never will be. developer and programmers willing to compile could not find any agreement or time to do so. NT is apparently not going to help as well - but i'm not sure if it is because denis doesn't want to expose the code.

cheers markus

prometheus
12-10-2018, 11:05 AM
If you're still using the native booleans, you have to take a look at the 3rd Powers plugins. They have real time booleans and mesh stitchers for Modeler.
http://www.3rdpowers.com/

Cool plugins for lightwave, though there are free software that does realtime booleans, and that in the form of modifiers, which mean you can change drill size or shapes in a non destructive way.
The metamesh however, is really interesting..Guess it mostly is for organic shapes though and not so much for other desing types...just guessing.

erikals
12-10-2018, 07:14 PM
i'd guess no

however, look into LWcad and 3rdPowers for enhanced modeling tools

crossing fingers for Modeler love in 2019 or 2020   https://i.imgur.com/5O6mwtQ.png


there are free software that does realtime booleans, and that in the form of modifiers, which mean you can change drill size or shapes in a non destructive way.
at some point, probably, LightWave will get a Modeler that can compete in some ways.

Marander
12-11-2018, 01:10 AM
i'd guess no

however, look into LWcad and 3rdPowers for enhanced modeling tools

crossing fingers for Modeler love in 2019 or 2020   https://i.imgur.com/5O6mwtQ.png


at some point, probably, LightWave will get a Modeler that can compete in some ways.

I don't mean to offend anybody but I don't agree.

In my opinion, NewTek should forget about Modeler. Any development efforts in that direction are lost time they could use for other (basic or special effects) stuff in Layout. Except they want to just please the old-time LW users.

Its not realistic that Modeler can be brought to a level of other 3d applications because these are about 15 years (of much more intensive and innovative development) ahead. The 'new' 2018 modeler tools like 'Live' array are a joke for today's standards.

LightWave would need a complete overhaul of its core architecture (which was supposed to happen for 2018), offering a non-destructive workflow and unification, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. If they manage to implement that, they would need to re-develop all the tools based on that new foundation.

Additionally to that, other 3d development teams have many years of experience in refining and optimizing features. LW tools once developed mostly stay the same over decades, specially in case of Modeler. Instead of refining these for each new release, NewTek just adds other (poorly designed) tools that overlap with their functionality.

3rdPowers tools are not enhanced modeling tools. They do a poor job compared to other 3d applications base functionality (all of them). 3rdPowers tools should not be required as addon for any general purpose 3d application. I would consider Metamesh an exception when it was first released, but modern 3d applications have better tools built-in for these kind of tasks now. LWCAD is not well integrated in LW and has a destructive workflow.

I would prefer if NewTek would focus on Layout and eventually start building basic modeling tools there. They will still be behind others but might find niche tools / features that others don't have.

I was expecting a great geometry engine or good volumetrics for LW2018 (the reason I upgraded) but I find its current implementation very limited and disappointing.

But before they start developing any new feature they should first fix the UI and implement a working Undo, redesign core feature like the GraphEditor or SceneEditor in my opinion.

TheLexx
12-11-2018, 02:53 AM
I appreciate your honesty Marander, but I don't understand what are these magic tools which "everyone else" is using. For example, over on Modo forum is a thread with over 4000 posts and over 700,000 views in which quite a few people are like "I'm defecting from Modo to Blender 2.8". I only mention this because Modo is supposed to be that high end modelling package which specifically sprang from LW Modeler in many ways. I may be wrong but it looks like a grass-is-greener thing to me. It seems almost fickle to jump from Modo to Blender, given that Modo itself is supposed to have those magic tools...

I know peoples needs are different, but I take the view that for one guy, if it is too much beyond LW Modeler, then it is too complicated (for me anyway) in terms of knocking work out fast. That is why I persist with trying to harness LW Modeler and considering plugins to enhance that. I may be wrong but it may be an advantage to limit options compared to too many new interfaces of software, because it takes knowing all the nuances to become a power user. In my own personal case, I feel I am lacking a proper understanding of 2D perspective and compositing to leverage and shortcut a workflow, and might be a rabbit warren prowling into other modelling (too much).

I hope I'm not being too much of a Luddite there.

:)

Marander
12-11-2018, 05:35 AM
I appreciate your honesty Marander, but I don't understand what are these magic tools which "everyone else" is using. For example, over on Modo forum is a thread with over 4000 posts and over 700,000 views in which quite a few people are like "I'm defecting from Modo to Blender 2.8". I only mention this because Modo is supposed to be that high end modelling package which specifically sprang from LW Modeler in many ways. I may be wrong but it looks like a grass-is-greener thing to me. It seems almost fickle to jump from Modo to Blender, given that Modo itself is supposed to have those magic tools...

I know peoples needs are different, but I take the view that for one guy, if it is too much beyond LW Modeler, then it is too complicated (for me anyway) in terms of knocking work out fast. That is why I persist with trying to harness LW Modeler and considering plugins to enhance that. I may be wrong but it may be an advantage to limit options compared to too many new interfaces of software, because it takes knowing all the nuances to become a power user. In my own personal case, I feel I am lacking a proper understanding of 2D perspective and compositing to leverage and shortcut a workflow, and might be a rabbit warren prowling into other modelling (too much).

I hope I'm not being too much of a Luddite there.

:)

Hey TheLexx I understand your arguments.

You're right, there's no magic tools in any of these applications, 3D modeling is always work. However they offer refined and efficient workflows. There will always be a feature that is better done in one application compared to others.

The 'grass is greener' syndrom, yes true but this is on a whole different level with these apps. I don't think any of these users would consider LW and specially Modeler as an alternative.

For example, I consider the bevel or knife tools in C4D the best as well as splines, text, procedural modifiers and openVDB modeling. MODO has MeshFusion which is unparalleled, it's great for mechanical modeling. However it just introduced a procedural workflow a few releases ago and has a horrible licensing system. The Blender hard surface tools are very good (but so are others). Blender is great and has a huge feature set but some of them seem not to go as deep as others. The AD applications are also great modeling applications but rental only, Houdini started to implement easier to use hard surface tools and is of course the procedural king. LW Modeler is good to just drag out an object, lets say a box - instead of creating a box object first and then modify its parameters. LW has an easy-to-use layering system.

LW lacks of basic things like Undo, Snapping, Selection Sets, proper Edge and Spline tools, Highlighting, Workplanes or Sculpting. It doesn't have an Object Mode (which allows fully integrated custom objects with individual parameters, e.g. Hair, Par Cloth, Particles, Text, Primitives, objects for plugins like LWCAD). Then the various issues of the application split for Weight Painting, Fracturing, using Splines in Layout, Skeletons, Hair Guides etc. And a procedural / non-destructive workflow of course.

Let's say you create a text with custom bevels, extrusions, kerning, maybe fractures, want to modify individual spline points of the text, change the spline type, add subdivisions for good deformation, booleans or symmetry, bent along a path, shrink-wrapped to another object, using the text object as base for an emitter or collision object - then you want to change the font, text itself or other settings - you're doomed with LW while with the others you can just adjust any parameter, even having those set automatically based on a driver/script/node. Then maybe you want to animate the text and its parameters, use dynamics, apply effectors or falloffs - based on single words, chunks, lines or characters...

If you want to achieve the exact look, art direct your scene - you need to experiment with different parameters or seeds until you find the right look. It's not just about having a new text tool in LW, it's the whole architecture that does not allow an efficient workflow.

I understand the argument about being proficient in an application, it takes time to get good in another application. Also I think it doesn't make sense to work with 2-3 different modeling applications. That's why I said, if NewTek wants to please old-time LW users, that's fine. But competing with the others is not realistic in my opinion.

pauland
12-11-2018, 06:22 AM
Consider a Nurbs modeller - http://moi3d.com/

JohnMarchant
12-11-2018, 07:33 AM
The only modeling tool that is far superior is ZBrush or 3DCoat, most other software has its problems on the modeling front. Try modeling in Houdini or indeed Maya, not exactly a joy to work with. LightWave is not to bad, it really just needs tightening up. To many tools poorly implemented or not really taken advantage of. Many tools doing similar things that could be integrated. Actually as far as look goes LWCad is very good indeed. I like seeing the information on distance, angle and such exactly where my cursor is where i am working and not have to look down to the right or call up the numeric tool UI. I think many 3d packages have let their modeling tools languish for to long.

I think the biggest problem for many of the paid for software is Blender. Its really coming on a treat and whilst not perfect does sometimes make you wonder why you are paying for other software.

Marander
12-11-2018, 09:22 AM
Yes, besides component and selection preview / highlighting, visual feedback for distance / angles or visualizing problematic parts of the mesh* are also missing in Modeler as well as snapping*, steps / quantizing and other modeling helpers like guides or measures*. Rectangle selection? Structure view? Modifiers? Generators? Voxel based modeling*? All things I wouldn't want to miss anymore and should be part of any modern modeling software.

Yes I know some of this is part of LWCAD but it replaces large parts of the Modeler features and uses its own geometry type for splines and NURBS.

* these would be very helpful for 3D printing as mentioned in the original post. ZBrush could be a good and affordable solution for that as well.

jbrookes
12-11-2018, 02:39 PM
I understand that you're trying to help make LightWave better. And that's good.

However, I don't view Modeler's current state as any sort of crisis. Nor would I support the idea of simply abandoning it. Typically, I see heated posts (much like yours) coming from people who are strong proponents of a unified interface. I have to admit, I like the split between Layout and Modeler. But then again, it just happens to suit my preferred work-flow.

If the issue with Modeler is that you find that you can't model something in it, then maybe it's worth trying some different techniques. A proficient LightWave user should be able to model just about anything in Modeler (out of the box).

Now if it's simply more of a concern with efficiency of work-flow -- then perhaps you have a case. If that's the root of your argument, then that suggests that the issue at hand is a 'nice-to-have' and not a 'must-have'.

Nicolas Jordan
12-11-2018, 03:04 PM
LW Modeler does need to be improved in many places but it still gets the job done fast enough and well enough for what I need in Arch Viz especially with LWCAD added. I'm looking forward to see what advancements come in the next release.

Signal to Noise
12-11-2018, 03:21 PM
... I have to admit, I like the split between Layout and Modeler. But then again, it just happens to suit my preferred work-flow.

...

Same. The main reason I bought into LW (@ v7) in the first place and continue with it over the years.

erikals
12-11-2018, 05:30 PM
Modeler / Layout merged can still look like Modeler / Layout split.

it would only have benefits, no downsides.

the biggest minus would be the development time.

Marander
12-11-2018, 11:38 PM
Modeler / Layout merged can still look like Modeler / Layout split.

it would only have benefits, no downsides.

the biggest minus would be the development time.

Yes I see it the same way!

Using Workspaces, LW could offer individual environments within the same application. An old concept that most other applications use since ages (some better, some less).

In the Modeling Workspace you would see nothing else but your Modeler interface with Layers and all the relevant tools

If done well it would also remember all the dialog positions, layout, quad view etc. It would even help to unclutter the UI (and maybe get rid of the awful More... sub menus). No more Hub required! VPR in Modeler! Only one Surfaces dialog! Rigging and Vertex Map / Weight Painting would be in a different Workspace for example.

The Workspaces should be customizable and provide some useful default Layouts (Modeling | Texturing | Rigging | Animating | Simulation | Rendering for example).

If you only want to model, you wouldn't notice a difference except an additional Workspace drop down menu, icon or button for switching

This is something that LW could be doing better than most other applications and stand out, clean task separation / stages but within one 3D application. It could look like the original Softimage UI (not XSI) which I liked very much. But for today's standards it should be a fully customizable and flexible UI of course.

And you know what? The split application feeling would still be there because a flexible UI allows to pull off individual panels. So the Modeling Workspace could be pulled off to a second screen entirely.

But I guess that's wishful thinking unfortunately.

Not really an issue for me because I can do all these things already today but it would make me using LW more often again - and maybe even attract new users.

ccclarke
12-12-2018, 05:17 AM
A few minutes spent looking through Newtek's gallery should be more than ample proof to demonstrate in the proper hands, LW is more than capable of producing work that matches any commercial 3D app out there. Every one of those artists began at Ground Zero to acquire their skills. How many of them come here to vent? Any? Perhaps they're too busy creating fantastic art using the same tools available to the rest of us.

Is LW perfect? I have yet to hear anyone describe their app of choice as not needing improvement. Does it get the job done with results that exceed the expectations of my customers before their deadlines? Always.

I'm curious how many of the people continually complaining about LW with the same worn arguments actually make a living using it.

While I always welcome improvements to the software, Modeler and Layout have what I need to succeed. The workflow, (and this isn't something one learns from a book or online tutorial --it comes from years of hard work and experience) is pretty darn good.

With the proper instruction to develop efficient techniques, LW is very easy to learn. I just started training a new student this week. At her current rate of progress, in a month, she'll be awesome! How many apps would that be possible with?

I know online forums are a handy venue for people to complain, but thankfully, the hard-core whiners (constructive criticism is different) are a minority. If you dpn't like the software, by all means, migrate to another app; they're waiting for you. Compulsive rhetorical masturbating over and over here has produced what in the way of real improvements? Nothing of note.

wesleycorgi
12-12-2018, 06:40 AM
I've tried other modelers, but have always come back to LW Modeler. I maintained a license of Modo up until v9; I forced myself to model in Modo only several times. There are some great tools/workflows, but I decided to give up on Modo because ultimately I brought my models into Layout (and I decided to put my upgrade money into ancillary products like Anima and Marvelous Designer).

I force myself to model in Blender every couple of years. Yes, the interface has progressed since v2.5(?) but I swear I want to kill someone every time I use Blender.

I demo'ed 3DS Max recently. If I were to completely jump ship, I would move to 3DS Max. As a former architect in training, it reminds me of my CAD days. The problem is the cost (and licensing structure). However, there were a few frustrating things that 3DS Max has that are lacking/missing.

So I am fine with Modeler/LWCAD. I would prefer a unified environment, because it is Layout that keeps me coming back to LW. But until we get there, I would be so happy if vast improvements in Modeler performance (higher poly counts, etc.) were made. Additionally, I agree with getting rid of redundant tools, a proper undo (deformer stack perhaps), and simply fixing all the broken features.

prometheus
12-12-2018, 08:28 AM
A few minutes spent looking through Newtek's gallery should be more than ample proof to demonstrate in the proper hands, LW is more than capable of producing work that matches any commercial 3D app out there. Every one of those artists began at Ground Zero to acquire their skills. How many of them come here to vent? Any? Perhaps they're too busy creating fantastic art using the same tools available to the rest of us.

Is LW perfect? I have yet to hear anyone describe their app of choice as not needing improvement. Does it get the job done with results that exceed the expectations of my customers before their deadlines? Always.

I'm curious how many of the people continually complaining about LW with the same worn arguments actually make a living using it.

While I always welcome improvements to the software, Modeler and Layout have what I need to succeed. The workflow, (and this isn't something one learns from a book or online tutorial --it comes from years of hard work and experience) is pretty darn good.

With the proper instruction to develop efficient techniques, LW is very easy to learn. I just started training a new student this week. At her current rate of progress, in a month, she'll be awesome! How many apps would that be possible with?

I know online forums are a handy venue for people to complain, but thankfully, the hard-core whiners (constructive criticism is different) are a minority. If you dpn't like the software, by all means, migrate to another app; they're waiting for you. Compulsively verbally masturbating over and over has produced what in the way of real improvements?

I hope you do understand that it is not about getting the job Done, or how great stuff Lightwave can produce, if that is what matters Only, then you shouldnīt even bother upgrade...Ever,, nor leave any suggestions to improvements....there would be no need to.

It is all about how we Want lightwave to be improved.

Ztreem
12-12-2018, 09:34 AM
For me it's not only LW that got me to go elsewhere it's more Newtek's style of communicating with the customers/users. When they did the complete silence thing, it killed LW for me. Then of course LW's lack of progress with unification and GUI made the decision to jump easier and I havn't regret it once, I only which I had done it earlier. I still have LW2015 and can use it when needed. I have some old projects for clients that I will go back and do in LW but all my new projects is done elsewhere. I'm glad that some people still think that the workflow in Lw is good and fast, good for you.

Back on topic: If the old renderer doesn't do the job for you and you want something more then upgrade otherwise wait or look into other solutions and see what they offer...

SBowie
12-12-2018, 09:52 AM
Back on topic: Well, there's a notion - the original topic having been "Any reason to upgrade yet?", with the related question "Specifically has Modeler changed or improved?" ... as opposed to, for example, "Let's hear those of you who prefer completely different packages explain why for the umpteenth time." ;)

erikals
12-12-2018, 06:15 PM
but thankfully, the hard-core whiners...
haven't seen that in this thread, and several others already moved on.

the forum is pretty quiet these days.

jbrookes
12-13-2018, 01:14 PM
Yes I see it the same way!

Using Workspaces, LW could offer individual environments within the same application. An old concept that most other applications use since ages (some better, some less).

In the Modeling Workspace you would see nothing else but your Modeler interface with Layers and all the relevant tools

If done well it would also remember all the dialog positions, layout, quad view etc. It would even help to unclutter the UI (and maybe get rid of the awful More... sub menus). No more Hub required! VPR in Modeler! Only one Surfaces dialog! Rigging and Vertex Map / Weight Painting would be in a different Workspace for example.

The Workspaces should be customizable and provide some useful default Layouts (Modeling | Texturing | Rigging | Animating | Simulation | Rendering for example).

If you only want to model, you wouldn't notice a difference except an additional Workspace drop down menu, icon or button for switching

This is something that LW could be doing better than most other applications and stand out, clean task separation / stages but within one 3D application. It could look like the original Softimage UI (not XSI) which I liked very much. But for today's standards it should be a fully customizable and flexible UI of course.

And you know what? The split application feeling would still be there because a flexible UI allows to pull off individual panels. So the Modeling Workspace could be pulled off to a second screen entirely.

But I guess that's wishful thinking unfortunately.

Not really an issue for me because I can do all these things already today but it would make me using LW more often again - and maybe even attract new users.

I like what you've written here. That makes for a fascinating outline of how things could potentially go while still keeping what makes LightWave unique.

As for a reason to go to 2018. From comparing 2015 to 2018 so far, there certainly is a different look to the output. I could see the two versions complimenting each other quite well. I plan to dig into 2018's renderer more soon, so I should have a better-informed opinion then.

hrgiger
12-13-2018, 01:42 PM
No.

Greenlaw
12-13-2018, 01:54 PM
If you're still using the native booleans, you have to take a look at the 3rd Powers plugins. They have real time booleans and mesh stitchers for Modeler.
http://www.3rdpowers.com/

Just +1-ing this.

3rd Powers Boolean is not only interactive, the results usually look better. In the years I've been using it, I ran into only a few situations where the native tools worked better. If you do a lot of Boolean cutting, I highly recommend this tool.

As for upgrading to 2018, I've been using it at home. I personally like 2018 but it's been harder to commit to it because my 'big' projects were started in 2015 and it would be too much trouble to update all my assets for 2018. I'm using 2018 for any new projects though (mostly small projects for now.) At work we're still using 2015, pretty much for the same reason...we can't switch up while in the middle of productions using it.

So, I think it comes down to how tied down you are to using 2015's workflow and assets. IMO, 2018 is better in many ways but it's pretty much a new game with its own set of rules.

RPSchmidt
12-13-2018, 02:24 PM
No.

Whoa... thought you sold your copy of LW 2015? ;)

Nicolas Jordan
12-13-2018, 02:47 PM
OD Tools preset system was a big reason for me to begin saving off presets and start doing my work in 2018. It's something I originally thought should have been native but I guess there are some benefits to having it 3rd party.

hrgiger
12-13-2018, 03:30 PM
Whoa... thought you sold your copy of LW 2015? ;)

Which gives me even less of a reason to upgrade.;)

TheLexx
12-13-2018, 04:46 PM
Hrgiger, when LW2019 hits you won't be able to sell your Modo fast enough. Maxon and ZBrush will probably close down within a month....and you will have to shell out fresh for a new license of LW...

:jester:

hrgiger
12-13-2018, 06:44 PM
Hrgiger, when LW2019 hits you won't be able to sell your Modo fast enough. Maxon and ZBrush will probably close down within a month....and you will have to shell out fresh for a new license of LW...

:jester:

Good one. But I'm confident this won't be the case.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-13-2018, 10:24 PM
Don't feel bad, Newtek. Blender trolls can't resist an opportunity to proselytize on Max topics too: https://cgpress.org/archives/3ds-max-2019-3-features-revealed.html Every time, the same few folks. Just like here.

If LW 2018 had been released in 2016 we would be having a different discussion. It took 3 patches but 2018 is super reliable on my systems. Now that Dpont nodes are available for LW 2018, along with Mike's Nodemeister, LW nodes and VPR compare more than favorably to Arnold and Max, which only received VPR in viewports yesterday.

Dpont's SVG node is available for the first time for 64 bit and should be of particular interest to folks in high rez print production.

Not expecting miracles but I hope 2019 is another new-year's release. Hi-Def UI with steady progress in Modeler and Layout.

50one
12-14-2018, 02:14 AM
I moved to C4d with Octane completely (modo for uv/model), granted it's v18 but I refuse to use anything else than GPU for rendering. CPU rendering is just plain moronic. I'll see if we will get any gpu enabled renderer in the future tho, but I highly doubt it will happen.

erikals
12-14-2018, 03:37 AM
Don't feel bad, Newtek. Blender trolls can't resist an opportunity to proselytize on Max topics too:
Every time, the same few folks. Just like here.
...then i assume you have noticed that every time, the same folks, say that LightWave has no major problem [rhetorical]

anyways, not a lot complaining anymore, many moved to other software.
but i guess telling the truth is trolling.

i was done with this thread, its going nowhere, but you can't write stuff that simply isn't so.

further > https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/1689073681198624

over and out.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_and_Out

RPSchmidt
12-14-2018, 06:43 AM
I moved to C4d with Octane completely (modo for uv/model), granted it's v18 but I refuse to use anything else than GPU for rendering. CPU rendering is just plain moronic. I'll see if we will get any gpu enabled renderer in the future tho, but I highly doubt it will happen.

Before this current round of CPU wars started, I would have agreed with you.

But now with Intel and AMD at each other's throats... CPU rendering may make a definitive return.

Just saying... when you start throwing out 32 cores / 64 threads / 5.2ghz... that's some beastly power there, with more innovations on the way.

I think the more this Intel / AMD duel heats up, the more blurred the lines between CPU / GPU render speed will become.

Marander
12-14-2018, 07:59 AM
...then i assume you have noticed that every time, the same folks, say that LightWave has no major problem [rhetorical]

anyways, not a lot complaining anymore, many moved to other software.
but i guess telling the truth is trolling.

i was done with this thread, its going nowhere, but you can't write stuff that simply isn't so.

further > https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/1689073681198624

over and out.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_and_Out

Well said Erikals!

The complainers about the complainers often bring the argument why don't you create instead of whining.

I for myself create a lot of images and animations, constantly learning about techniques, tools and art but don't post in galleries but sometimes on my web page just for myself. I help other users where I can, for instance a few days ago for a users Python issue in another forum. I have helped in the LW forum in the past as good as I can. I supported most LW plugin developers and promoted their work. Additionally I beta test for several major software packages, all in my free time. I'm a computer enthusiast since 35 years (since the Sinclair Spectrum, Commodore, first PCs and supercomputers) and care about progress in software.

If one doesn't recognize that there are things that take hours of work in LW compared to few minutes in other packages and the same time remaining procedural - then he doesn't know much outside LW. I'm not saying that applies to all 3D work but to several disciplines. Take openVDB Modeling for example, it revolutionizes modeling in many use cases.

I seriously want LW to get better. If it does substantially improve workflow, UI and offer some unique features I'm happy to use it, otherwise not.

The original poster's question was if it's worth upgrading. I would say it depends if you want to remain in the LW world, keep using the same workflow, using workarounds for simple stuff and not learn new stuff but want to produce better looking renders, don't use Octane yet, have a fast CPU machine - then yes, it can be a benefit to upgrade to LW2018. And get all the OD addons for it while you're at it.

TheLexx
12-14-2018, 08:04 AM
@ RPSchmidt, yes, the following video came to my attention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFoY7pxWJa4#t=2m8s

I don't doubt that Octane is probably the go-to fast option for LW right now, but there are reasons for considering CPU even if speed is important, not least that the LW renderer is built in which is ultimately more desirable. Octane seem to send out all sorts of seemingly conflicting messages about what they intend to do (eg, Free tier details ? Subscription or permanent? Also, did Octane 5 just leapfrog Octane 4 ? And what is this about a "part time" updating dongle all of a sudden ?).

I never really see any scene-for-scene, side by side comparisons of CPU and GPU. I know this is a bit difficult because the engines are fundamentally different and the components vary, but those RebelHill tutorials put to good use on a fast system in the near future would be fantastic. As an aside, for LW GPU options, in all seriousness, I understand C4D Studio imports LW scenes so if one thought of that as a (very expensive) plugin, it would make Redshift attainable for LW which might even smoke Octane. If the Prime tier also facilitates that, it is not actually beyond consideration, given the cost of Octane anyway.
https://help.maxon.net/us/#FLWIMPORT-LWIMPORTFILTER_GROUP

But the future is looking much brighter for CPU native Lightwave.

SBowie
12-14-2018, 08:26 AM
The complainers about the complainers often bring the argument why don't you create instead of whining.But of course that's not what was going on in this thread. No-one asked "... or should I switch to (name your favorite alternative)", nor did anyone say "If you've left, please tell us why!" The topic was upgrading LW.

And frankly, on the topic of "complainers", no-one minds an honest complaint - at least as long as it isn't repeated in every other post and spammed across multiple threads for months if not years. Many share the same hopes and even the same frustrations. Banging on endlessly about it at every opportunity it just wearisome to those who find much to like in LW.

Ztreem
12-14-2018, 09:00 AM
Before this current round of CPU wars started, I would have agreed with you.

But now with Intel and AMD at each other's throats... CPU rendering may make a definitive return.

Just saying... when you start throwing out 32 cores / 64 threads / 5.2ghz... that's some beastly power there, with more innovations on the way.

I think the more this Intel / AMD duel heats up, the more blurred the lines between CPU / GPU render speed will become.

Remember that a i9 with 18 cores can do around 1 TFLOPS and RTX 2080Ti can do around 13 TFLOPS. That makes the GPU 13 times faster. so you would need something like 234 cores to match the GPU. Also add that the price of the RTX2080Ti is about half of the i9 18 core CPU. Just saying...

Chris S. (Fez)
12-14-2018, 10:12 AM
And frankly, on the topic of "complainers", no-one minds an honest complaint - at least as long as it isn't repeated in every other post and spammed across multiple threads for months if not years. Many share the same hopes and even the same frustrations. Banging on endlessly about it at every opportunity it just wearisome to those who find much to like in LW.

Yup. The horse has long since been pummeled into a fine mist and the same few still delight in bringing their bats. When a person posts to disrupt and convert and sneer and confirm their own ideas of "The Truth" then I
think the transition from honest critique to trolling is complete.

Dpont nodes are now available for 2018! Mike is coding a plugin a month for DB&W Patreon. Oliver is still adding tools at a record pace. Rebel Hill is back with a superb training series on the new renderer, which, yep is still CPU just like Arnold: https://www.arnoldrenderer.com/gallery/

There is a place for CPU and a place for GPU. Depends on project and pipeline, much like LW. CPU render farms are dirt cheap these days. Anyone with an internet connection has access to Pixaresque computing power.

It's a great time to be a Lightwaver if you like using Lightwave.

The developers are keenly aware of the fierce competition and the criticism. Perhaps people will be pleasantly surprised with LW 2019. Those who are not pleased might find better ways to spend their time than stating and restating their displeasure.

erikals
12-14-2018, 10:34 AM
But of course that's not what was going on in this thread. No-one asked "... or should I switch to (name your favorite alternative)", nor did anyone say "If you've left, please tell us why!" The topic was upgrading LW.

And frankly, on the topic of "complainers", no-one minds an honest complaint - at least as long as it isn't repeated in every other post and spammed across multiple threads for months if not years. Many share the same hopes and even the same frustrations. Banging on endlessly about it at every opportunity it just wearisome to those who find much to like in LW.

the question is "Any reason to upgrade yet?"
a simple "No" for an answer is not very constructive. So what should we answer?
Answering that question without giving a reason to why is to give an amputated answer.
i understand the frustration, but what would you have people say?

i guess we could maybe create a forum rule where no-one gives a proper reply to what the cause is, unless anyone asks.
or a forum rule where it simply is forbidden to ask such questions.

i'm tired of answering these answers too, because i know one cannot answer such a question properly without going into the "and here is why".

we also could make a rule where certain people who have earlier answered these kind of questions are not allowed to anymore.
erikals, prometheus, hrgiger ... maybe we should, because this stuff just keeps going in a loop.
...that might be a temporary solution.


Yup. The horse has long since been pummeled into a fine mist and the same few still delight in bringing their bats. When a person posts to disrupt and convert and sneer and confirm their own ideas of "The Truth" then I think the transition from honest critique to trolling is complete.
Reversed trolling.

SBowie
12-14-2018, 10:45 AM
the question is "Any reason to upgrade yet?" ... a simple "No" for an answer is not very constructive. So what should we answer? ... i guess we could maybe create a forum rule where no-one gives a proper reply to what the cause it, unless anyone asks.Since the question wasn't "What other app should I consider?", but basically 'Should I upgrade from LW11?', it seems clear that quite an array of valid answers (negative or positive) could be offered, generally relating to the delta between LW 11 and LW 2018. The rest is, for this topic at least, irrelevant.

shrox
12-14-2018, 11:10 AM
Yup. The horse has long since been pummeled into a fine mist and the same few still delight in bringing their bats. When a person posts to disrupt and convert and sneer and confirm their own ideas of "The Truth" then I
think the transition from honest critique to trolling is complete.

Sour grapes is next.

- - - Updated - - -


the question is "Any reason to upgrade yet?"
a simple "No" for an answer is not very constructive. So what should we answer?
Answering that question without giving a reason to why is to give an amputated answer.
i understand the frustration, but what would you have people say?

i guess we could maybe create a forum rule where no-one gives a proper reply to what the cause is, unless anyone asks.
or a forum rule where it simply is forbidden to ask such questions.

i'm tired of answering these answers too, because i know one cannot answer such a question properly without going into the "and here is why".

we also could make a rule where certain people who have earlier answered these kind of questions are not allowed to anymore.
erikals, prometheus, hrgiger ... maybe we should, because this stuff just keeps going in a loop.
...that might be a temporary solution.


Reversed trolling.

Yet, Fez is right.

Airwaves
12-14-2018, 11:30 AM
I have not read the entire thread but wanted to chime in to the original question with my thoughts. I personally do not use Lightwave for too intense things as I mainly make videos for math videos and I cut corners a lot in what I do. I know that it does not look the best in some ways but it helps me afford what I do. I don't know if you should personally upgrade to Lightwave 2018 but I did because of a few reasons. One huge reason was the cost of upgrading is so minimal compared to the cost of using other programs. It was still a lot of money indeed, but for me ( I doubt anybody else here fits this next part) someone who does not use 3d animation software extensively it was a lot smaller price to pay.

Another reason I upgraded was I have two licenses and upgraded one so that I can try to stay current. Things are changing and I find that sometimes it is just best to keep current. The other huge plus for me was that you can still use the old Lightwave if you want to. I know it is a pain but it has come in handy sometimes.

I realize most people here on the forums are working in the animation industry in some form or another and I am the odd ball out but I upgraded for those and other smaller reasons.

With all that being said I will tell you that every time I use Lightwave 2018 there is some point where I get mad and wish I had stuck with the old one but there are a few times where I actually produce something that looks better than what I previously had done in the older version and I like it. For the most part I will admit I am still not a fan of 2018 but it was a small price to stay current for me personally.

Just my thoughts.

** I do have a question though - What if someone did not upgrade to 2018 and if 2019 comes out will they pay a higher price to upgrade from 11? **

raymondtrace
12-14-2018, 12:43 PM
Ditto Fez.

In regard to the questionable direction of this discussion topic, should I point out that the OP is not engaged and further explaining any pain points that may or may not be resolved with an upgrade? Some of us must be waiting on some beautiful renders to be lingering on this topic so much. :)


** I do have a question though - What if someone did not upgrade to 2018 and if 2019 comes out will they pay a higher price to upgrade from 11? **

Nothing has been announced. There was talk of tiered upgrade pricing for 2018 but I never saw it. I recall everyone was offered a discount upgrade to 2018 in the first 90 days. Then it switched to a higher upgrade price for everyone.

erikals
12-14-2018, 01:34 PM
Yet, Fez is right.
to a certain degree.

anyways, i'm not here to fight. looking forward to LW2019, i believe LightWave can return to glory. We shall see.

https://i.imgur.com/K3bKgND.png

hrgiger
12-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Just to add to what I wrote earlier, no a simple no isn't very constructive but then for myself that is the simple answer. There was nothing in 2018 that I found worth the upgrade, I didn't feel it necessary to rehash the same criticisms I had of the 2018 release. I did consider upgrading for a time solely due to what Oliver added to the value of 2018 (which was and is significant if you use LW). Oliver is incredibly smart and very talented. But in the end, the same problems were still there at the root level and no amount of scripts will address those shortcomings. But beyond that, is my general distaste for how NT has handled LW over the last several years (especially the last two years of leaving users completely in the dark) ended up being the largest reason I decided not to upgrade and I felt confident enough that things would not change in any significant way with the next changing of the guard, enough to sell my license. As far as the future, I would never say never and if the impossible happened and NT started properly supporting and marketing LW, I would have no problem in purchasing a license. However, I feel like the lottery is as good of bet right at this time.

jwiede
12-14-2018, 05:17 PM
Dpont nodes are now available for 2018!

Well, just a quick comment: While they're available for LW on Windows, they are not (yet?) available for Mac LW. As a result, for LW2018 customers on Mac, the issues associated with their absence are still very real.

raymondtrace
12-14-2018, 05:30 PM
Someone needs to get Denis a Mac to compile, or a buddy with a Mac. However, DP goodies are still in rapid development and may have a few more revisions before the dust settles. DP Filter was updated again today. In the meantime, boot to Windows.

Tim Parsons
12-14-2018, 10:03 PM
OK, So I am no longer a typical user, I use 11.6.2 on Mac and 90% of what I do now is create 3D objects to 3D print or 3D carve. The other 10% being creating high res still images for advertising.

So, is there anything new and exiting for a non animator in Lightwave for me? Specifically has Modeler changed or improved? The boolean functions in 11.6 are the bane of my existence, with creating non watertight models and crashing on simple cuts. If these have been fixed then it would help me a lot.

But I don't want to spend the money if there are no fixes or really cool updates that will affect my personal workflow.

Thanks!

sublimationman - if you want to make better renders faster, then yes. The renderer is faster not really because it's faster - it's faster because the workflow to get the materials and lighting right is WAAAAAAY faster. And then the renders look WAAAAAY better too. Otherwise no - not much has changed in the modeling. Also if you ever do any camera matching the tools are there now that make that easy as pie. I had to fire up 2015.3 the other day and thought I was in a bad dream. :) Yes - I really like 2018.

Airwaves
12-15-2018, 04:22 PM
to a certain degree.

anyways, i'm not here to fight. looking forward to LW2019, i believe LightWave can return to glory. We shall see.

https://i.imgur.com/K3bKgND.png

Just out of curiosity do you know if there will be a 2019? This is a genuine question. I have not kept up on forums until this past week so I have heard nothing and have not seen anything on the blog so your comment piqued my curiosity.

erikals
12-15-2018, 04:47 PM
no. there are factors though.

- back when Rob was onboard he said releases will be more frequent (after 2018 i presume).
- Andrew Cross said there was going to be some new cool things for LightWave. (mid 2018 in a Tricaster interview i believe)
- NewTek recently bought Metamorphic

but hey, it might be 2020 or even 2021...   :)

Chris S. (Fez)
12-15-2018, 05:20 PM
Just out of curiosity do you know if there will be a 2019? This is a genuine question. I have not kept up on forums until this past week so I have heard nothing and have not seen anything on the blog so your comment piqued my curiosity.

They are working on the next version for sure but we will have to wait and see when it is released.

raymondtrace
12-15-2018, 05:42 PM
Just out of curiosity do you know if there will be a 2019?

The reason why some of us type "LW2019" is because we may have seen a LW bug or feature request marked as "fixed in LW2019". We also know NT is working on something so we know a release is coming. But never predict a timeline. LW2018 was once called LW2016 internally.

Airwaves
12-15-2018, 06:48 PM
I have learned to not expect a timeline. Don't worry on that. :)

erikals
12-15-2018, 07:10 PM
note, NewTek average development/release time (full version release, LW7,LW8,LW9 etc) in LightWave history is 3 years

so, according to that, next full version number release is, 2021.

however, there have been several .1 .2 .5 releases, even .6

we'll see... i have no idea really.

hrgiger
12-15-2018, 09:15 PM
There's a 2019 coming. I saw it mentioned that Deuce was going to go on Stephen Burns show to talk about it soon.
Since its just been a year, its bound to just be the addition of metamorphic which they bought from the developer and a handful of modeler additions and probably a few render enhancements.

erikals
12-16-2018, 05:44 AM
cool, i guess more of a Layout upgrade then.

wesleycorgi
12-16-2018, 06:03 AM
Also Oliver is actively talking about new OD Toolset updates for LW 2019. If he’s allowed to talk about it, LW 2019 must be near.

TheLexx
12-16-2018, 07:11 AM
There is a glut of LW2018 piracy on Ebay, which is a bit strange since I never saw previous versions there, but I do hope NT clamp down on that sort of thing as it can only hurt.

143632

Similar other listings too.
Mod, delete this post if it hinders rather than helps.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2018, 08:34 AM
I've been using LWcad's snapping tools to create somewhat precise hard surface terrain for war gaming prints. I just find modeler's capabilities in general less glitchy than other modelers I've used. What I do is create walls and columns out of several overlapping pieces. All the pieces are water tight. I then take them over into zbrush and separate them with a few clicks so that each piece is a separate subtool. I then boolean them all together with a single click using Live Boolean. The results are very clean, just have to make sure your base geometry is clean and water tight. So no, I don't see a reason to upgrade for this type of thing but I would recommend getting zbrush for the boolean and decimating tool alone.

The only thing I wish modeler had is native snapping and an easier way to create objects/group selections. Layers are way too fiddly for dividing up geometry into smaller groups.

prometheus
12-16-2018, 08:54 AM
I've been using LWcad's snapping tools to create somewhat precise hard surface terrain for war gaming prints. I just find modeler's capabilities in general less glitchy than other modelers I've used. What I do is create walls and columns out of several overlapping pieces. All the pieces are water tight. I then take them over into zbrush and separate them with a few clicks so that each piece is a separate subtool. I then boolean them all together with a single click using Live Boolean. The results are very clean, just have to make sure your base geometry is clean and water tight. So no, I don't see a reason to upgrade for this type of thing but I would recommend getting zbrush for the boolean and decimating tool alone.

The only thing I wish modeler had is native snapping and an easier way to create objects/group selections. Layers are way too fiddly for dividing up geometry into smaller groups.

Yep..a bit too fiddly.
We can create point sets for each unconnected segment in one layer( or connected if needed) and recalll that in the statistics panel..If you are in point mode that is, then from the statistics panel you can choose which ever set you have created, but itīs not very fluent since you have to select the set part, then click on + or - to select it..and it will only work with point selection and gives a point selection back, so you have to convert selection to poly when you need that.


https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143633&d=1544975579

143633

jasonwestmas
12-16-2018, 09:31 AM
Hi Prometheus,

Yup, I did try that method. While it usually works even when changing the topology of the mesh, my sets were breaking on me for some reason regardless. I can't remember why exactly it did that though. But my main problem with the selection sets and parts system (works with polygons) is that I would then have to remember which parts/meshes belonged to which name. It's a funny thing when working on a large amount of pieces, relying on a drop down menu to find that specific part name so you can copy or move it lol. There doesn't appear to be a way to simply click on the viewport to select a part/set.

shrox
12-16-2018, 09:55 AM
There is a glut of LW2018 piracy on Ebay, which is a bit strange since I never saw previous versions there, but I do hope NT clamp down on that sort of thing as it can only hurt.

143632

Similar other listings too.
Mod, delete this post if it hinders rather than helps.

Aspect ratio matters!

prometheus
12-16-2018, 10:50 AM
Hi Prometheus,

Yup, I did try that method. While it usually works even when changing the topology of the mesh, my sets were breaking on me for some reason regardless. I can't remember why exactly it did that though. But my main problem with the selection sets and parts system (works with polygons) is that I would then have to remember which parts/meshes belonged to which name. It's a funny thing when working on a large amount of pieces, relying on a drop down menu to find that specific part name so you can copy or move it lol. There doesn't appear to be a way to simply click on the viewport to select a part/set.

Forgot to mention detail/ and part set ..if anyone would create sets from polygon instead of point sets.

However as you say..itīs not very good implemented for groups or parts, we could use an item mode for this, or a single click select connected ( why donīt we have a scripter to do that ?)

There is a tool that can work semidecently, it will not actually select the part/segments for further editing in selected mode, but it will drag move a connected part if you need to move separate, it is Translate/snap drag and check connected points.

Though far better would be to have a select connected tool that works in a single mouse click, which allows for highlight selecting the part for further editing with any modeling tool you need to, if there were to be a select group tool or part tool that also works on several unconnected segments and not just connected ones, that would be great.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2018, 01:34 PM
Forgot to mention detail/ and part set ..if anyone would create sets from polygon instead of point sets.

However as you say..itīs not very good implemented for groups or parts, we could use an item mode for this, or a single click select connected ( why donīt we have a scripter to do that ?)

There is a tool that can work semidecently, it will not actually select the part/segments for further editing in selected mode, but it will drag move a connected part if you need to move separate, it is Translate/snap drag and check connected points.

Though far better would be to have a select connected tool that works in a single mouse click, which allows for highlight selecting the part for further editing with any modeling tool you need to, if there were to be a select group tool or part tool that also works on several unconnected segments and not just connected ones, that would be great.

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised after all these years there is not a tool to select an entire connected set of geometry with a single click. Even then however, I often need to group several water tight "objects" together for easy select-ability. Which I'm often forced to use layers for. It's ok, just not ideal.

oliverhotz
12-17-2018, 02:01 PM
Also Oliver is actively talking about new OD Toolset updates for LW 2019. If he’s allowed to talk about it, LW 2019 must be near.

my OD 2019 toolset update has nothing to do with or when the next version of lightwave is going to be released. Its simply another calendar year for me, where I feel I've done OD2018 proud and can move onto OD2019.

Best,
Oliver

jwiede
12-17-2018, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised after all these years there is not a tool to select an entire connected set of geometry with a single click.

Not sure I understand, are you asking for something other than what "Select Connected" (']') does? It takes a click plus a keystroke, granted, but still pretty darned quick.

hrgiger
12-17-2018, 04:28 PM
Not sure I understand, are you asking for something other than what "Select Connected" (']') does? It takes a click plus a keystroke, granted, but still pretty darned quick.

It would be better if it didn't use a keystroke at all but a double click.

erikals
12-17-2018, 05:54 PM
double click is kinda no-no at times with Wacom, so an option would be nice.

hrgiger
12-17-2018, 05:59 PM
double click is kinda no-no at times with Wacom, so an option would be nice.

My former and current Wacom were able to double click and had a setting to set the double click distance(you can even set one of the buttons on the stylus to mean double click). Are there ones that aren't able to double click for some reason?

erikals
12-17-2018, 06:16 PM
Are there ones that aren't able to double click for some reason?
the problem is often the other way around DC by mistake


double click distance
albeit this is older (Bamboo Medium) some don't have the option
edit; actually, forgot, but checking again it does have it. could be a solution, perhaps.


no problem though, all i'd need is an option to turn it off.

jwiede
12-17-2018, 07:35 PM
It would be better if it didn't use a keystroke at all but a double click.

Agreed, that'd be a nice option.

That said, if you're willing to lose double-click event (or reprogram it to something else) for Modeler, you could always configure double-click to yield "LMB click (short pause) ']'".

wesleycorgi
12-19-2018, 11:02 AM
my OD 2019 toolset update has nothing to do with or when the next version of lightwave is going to be released. Its simply another calendar year for me, where I feel I've done OD2018 proud and can move onto OD2019.

Best,
Oliver

My bad! Looking forward to your upgrade regardless.