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View Full Version : Can sasquatch do moana's hair ?



rednova
12-08-2018, 04:54 PM
Can sasquatch and lw 9.6 be used to make the hair for Moana and her demigod friend ?
From Disney's Moana ?
How about the new fiber fx in new lightwave ?

Kryslin
12-08-2018, 06:19 PM
Since long hair is based off of guide chains...

I suspect it can be done, but you're going to be spending an awful lot of time modeling enough guide chains to make it work well, in FFX or Sasquatch.

To make things go a bit faster, you could script a tool to make the final guide chains from a set of splines in modeler... Think of a helix that follows a spline. The problem being is that, as far as I know, there is no evaluator for a spline exposed in the SDK. So, you have to code your own. Centripedal Catmull Rom comes the closest.

And, if you're really masochistic, you could apply dynamics to said chains...

But, to answer the question, Yes, it could be done, but it's going to be a lot of work on your part.

rednova
12-08-2018, 06:56 PM
I am retired and have a lot of free time on my hands every day.
I love working in lightwave almost everyday for hobby.
I appreciate your answer to my question. It seems to me like a worthy challenge to try and make moana's hair in sasquatch.
As long as is possible, I will try my hand at doing the long hair. I have the 'taming sasquatch' dvd and I can study it and go from
there to try the moana's hair. I have an idea !!! Why not to try the hair in sasquatch, then post online here to show my work ?
I would love to work on this project.
Thank you !!!

RPSchmidt
12-08-2018, 07:51 PM
To make your guides quickly, you might want to try the technique from the first part of this tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vgX8-PlFxc

Oldcode
12-08-2018, 09:31 PM
I personally find the tools for hair making in Lightwave to be sorely lacking. When I want to do strand hair, I import my character into Blender in the T-Pose and then create that hair with Blender's tools which are much MUCH better. ;)

You then can export the hair object from Blender, bring it into Modeler, and make it usable in Lightwave. This tutorial is how I learned how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3wq6d26yI&t=642s

Good Luck! :D

prometheus
12-09-2018, 05:49 AM
Since long hair is based off of guide chains...

I suspect it can be done, but you're going to be spending an awful lot of time modeling enough guide chains to make it work well, in FFX or Sasquatch.

To make things go a bit faster, you could script a tool to make the final guide chains from a set of splines in modeler... Think of a helix that follows a spline. The problem being is that, as far as I know, there is no evaluator for a spline exposed in the SDK. So, you have to code your own. Centripedal Catmull Rom comes the closest.

And, if you're really masochistic, you could apply dynamics to said chains...

But, to answer the question, Yes, it could be done, but it's going to be a lot of work on your part.



Are you talking about making simpler curves or polychains in to spiral locks? wouldnīt it be worth to try the braiding and styling options for a guide in layout?
Ideas otherwise would possibly use skelegons and pose a couple of spiral strands and pose the strands as needed, save as transformed objects perhaps and then run fiberfx on it.

OFF
12-09-2018, 06:14 AM
No one tool itself can't create anything. But the artist can create what he is capable of at the moment. As for the visualization of hair on the level of Moana in my subjective opinion the Sasquatch is more suitable for this purpose than FFx. But this does not mean that it is impossible to do this with the FFx.

prometheus
12-09-2018, 10:55 AM
Disney developed a tool called quicksilver, for handling the hair, I do not know if that was for creation of hair, dynamics or rendering.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4uG9Xl9tNI






What I do perceive when trying to render fiberfx in 2018, it is that itīs extremely slow to render, even without GI, where you to render with fiberfx in 2015 ..I think it would be faster..but lacking the realism and true depth of primitive hair strands, I cant see myself wrestling with that kind of rendertimes, when GPU rendering in other software can be so much faster, that said..I do not know wether or not Octane would be a life saver for the rendering times..probably?

some other stuff "Tonic" for creating hair strands..
https://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/production/publication_asset/121/asset/hairPipeline.pdf

prometheus
12-09-2018, 11:23 AM
erikals did some curly notes..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyXSXWm1c8U

jwiede
12-09-2018, 12:08 PM
If you truly wish to gain the skills needed to produce something of that quality, that's a fine goal, but it's a long-term goal. You'll first need to acquire all the associated foundational skills and techniques, gain experience with using them, and become versant with the capabilities and limits of the tools you're using, all as part of the process of reaching that goal. In order to produce something at that pro level, you'll need to develop and hone pro-level skills and techniques, and that's not something that happens in a week, or a month, or even a year.

You're setting yourself a seriously challenging long-term goal, but still an attainable goal. You'll need to prepare and motivate yourself for a lengthy effort full of accomplishments, set-backs, and above all, hard work. It's often useful to set yourself a progression of intermediate goals you'll need to surpass, as steps towards achieving that long-term goal. Reaching those intermediate goals can provide the encouragement needed to keep you motivated towards the long-term goal.

Most important: Just keep at it!

prometheus
12-09-2018, 12:23 PM
If you truly wish to gain the skills needed to produce something of that quality, that's a fine goal, but it's a long-term goal. You'll first need to acquire all the associated foundational skills and techniques, gain experience with using them, and become versant with the capabilities and limits of the tools you're using, all as part of the process of reaching that goal. In order to produce something at that pro level, you'll need to develop and hone pro-level skills and techniques, and that's not something that happens in a week, or a month, or even a year.

You're setting yourself a seriously challenging long-term goal, but still an attainable goal. You'll need to prepare and motivate yourself for a lengthy effort full of accomplishments, set-backs, and above all, hard work. It's often useful to set yourself a progression of intermediate goals you'll need to surpass, as steps towards achieving that long-term goal. Reaching those intermediate goals can provide the encouragement needed to keep you motivated towards the long-term goal.

Most important: Just keep at it!

A question rises, is it realistic to think, that One person will be able to come close to the dynamic behavior that is shown in Disneys moana?
With the new fiberfx as primitives and the new PBR materials, I donīt think it would be impossible to reach that kind of styling (if you learn all the tweaking tools for guides and fiberfx) and Not impossible to reach near that render quality...for STILLS, but performing such dynamics..that is probably the most difficult task, and producing high enough quality at decent render times.

To keep in mind, getting to that level of animation and rendering, it is taking many people a lot of time, and a lot of money to do science and code their own special software, Especially designed to handle the difficulties at hand.

Oldcode
12-09-2018, 02:41 PM
Oh, what I'd give to get a hold of that Disney software! Or the software Pixar uses, which is also home grown.

I've been working on trying to do decent, not professional, but decent hair for almost 3 years, and I've had mixed results. In the clip below, is the best results I've gotten so far, and its for geometry base hair, not strand based. I'm still experimenting but so far, with strand based hair, my biggest problem is the hair just acts crazy, with individual guide hairs shooting all over the place for no apparent reason with both Bullet and ClothFx. When it works, especially with Bullet, it works pretty well. One of the hardest lessons I've learned is that for each shot, you have adjust the settings according to the behavior you need. If the character is just walking, that's one set of settings, but if they are running, or doing some type of fast twisting motion, that's something very different. For my current project, I'm going with geometry based hair because 1, I have pretty much figured it out, and 2, DAZ has a whole collection of geometry based hair figures for its characters that already have a nice style to them which is enhanced with dynamic motion.

In the clip below, I used a hair model from DAZ, parented to the character's head and is colliding with proxy objects for the head, chest, and shoulders. You can probably see the spacing on the shoulders is a little off, but is much better results that my last approach. I hope this helps.

143538

prometheus
12-09-2018, 04:33 PM
Oh, what I'd give to get a hold of that Disney software! Or the software Pixar uses, which is also home grown.

I've been working on trying to do decent, not professional, but decent hair for almost 3 years, and I've had mixed results. In the clip below, is the best results I've gotten so far, and its for geometry base hair, not strand based. I'm still experimenting but so far, with strand based hair, my biggest problem is the hair just acts crazy, with individual guide hairs shooting all over the place for no apparent reason with both Bullet and ClothFx. When it works, especially with Bullet, it works pretty well. One of the hardest lessons I've learned is that for each shot, you have adjust the settings according to the behavior you need. If the character is just walking, that's one set of settings, but if they are running, or doing some type of fast twisting motion, that's something very different. For my current project, I'm going with geometry based hair because 1, I have pretty much figured it out, and 2, DAZ has a whole collection of geometry based hair figures for its characters that already have a nice style to them which is enhanced with dynamic motion.

In the clip below, I used a hair model from DAZ, parented to the character's head and is colliding with proxy objects for the head, chest, and shoulders. You can probably see the spacing on the shoulders is a little off, but is much better results that my last approach. I hope this helps.

143538


My suggestion would be to get a youtube account and uploaded your clips there, if you do not want it publicly? then just make it unlisted and post the link here, or get a vimeo channel, the channels are all free...better to upload to the Mov format than a swf forma..that has the means of bringing bad quality to it.

The dynamics on the hair and body is pretty decent, it doesnīt seem to react with water though, needs some texturing for semi decent polyhair.
For semi realism, I would use lw 2015 and fiberfx volumetrics..which I believe is way faster than the primitive strands we Only have with 2018.

I do not see why the hair would go crazy? if you just set your polychains and bullet fx correctly, the strands should follow that, unless you use to much of clusters and styling ..which by itself doesnīt collide properly against any mesh..or should I say, it will go inside any mesh if you do not have enough collision margin.

I just have too little patience to endure the rendertimes with fiberfx ala 2018, and running only discovery means I can not do too much work to finish anything, it wouldnīt be of use for me...for this current time itīs only worth to try the features and learning until they possibly improve it, or until I definitely choose something else for hair.

Thread here..
https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?158651-Fiber-FX-Question&p=1559974#post1559974

https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143537&d=1544388540

jwiede
12-09-2018, 09:42 PM
A question rises, is it realistic to think, that One person will be able to come close to the dynamic behavior that is shown in Disneys moana?

Probably not, if we're discussing reasonable time investments, etc.

jaxtone
12-26-2018, 04:22 AM
Oh, what I'd give to get a hold of that Disney software! Or the software Pixar uses, which is also home grown.

I've been working on trying to do decent, not professional, but decent hair for almost 3 years, and I've had mixed results. In the clip below, is the best results I've gotten so far, and its for geometry base hair, not strand based. I'm still experimenting but so far, with strand based hair, my biggest problem is the hair just acts crazy, with individual guide hairs shooting all over the place for no apparent reason with both Bullet and ClothFx. When it works, especially with Bullet, it works pretty well. One of the hardest lessons I've learned is that for each shot, you have adjust the settings according to the behavior you need. If the character is just walking, that's one set of settings, but if they are running, or doing some type of fast twisting motion, that's something very different. For my current project, I'm going with geometry based hair because 1, I have pretty much figured it out, and 2, DAZ has a whole collection of geometry based hair figures for its characters that already have a nice style to them which is enhanced with dynamic motion.

In the clip below, I used a hair model from DAZ, parented to the character's head and is colliding with proxy objects for the head, chest, and shoulders. You can probably see the spacing on the shoulders is a little off, but is much better results that my last approach. I hope this helps.

143538

Do you think you can put this clip on youtube or post it in another format or zipped. I did get red alert from every anti-virus Ive got when trying to open an swf file... isnt that for flash mostly?

- - - Updated - - -


My suggestion would be to get a youtube account and uploaded your clips there, if you do not want it publicly? then just make it unlisted and post the link here, or get a vimeo channel, the channels are all free...better to upload to the Mov format than a swf forma..that has the means of bringing bad quality to it.

The dynamics on the hair and body is pretty decent, it doesnīt seem to react with water though, needs some texturing for semi decent polyhair.
For semi realism, I would use lw 2015 and fiberfx volumetrics..which I believe is way faster than the primitive strands we Only have with 2018.

I do not see why the hair would go crazy? if you just set your polychains and bullet fx correctly, the strands should follow that, unless you use to much of clusters and styling ..which by itself doesnīt collide properly against any mesh..or should I say, it will go inside any mesh if you do not have enough collision margin.

I just have too little patience to endure the rendertimes with fiberfx ala 2018, and running only discovery means I can not do too much work to finish anything, it wouldnīt be of use for me...for this current time itīs only worth to try the features and learning until they possibly improve it, or until I definitely choose something else for hair.

Thread here..
https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?158651-Fiber-FX-Question&p=1559974#post1559974

https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143537&d=1544388540

Promotheus, you are gold! Damn, your skills in Lightwave are so interesting to read about!

Kryslin
12-26-2018, 08:01 AM
Keep in mind that Moana probably used Pixar's dual spring hair model (developed for Merida's insane hair in Brave) for the Dynamics on Moana's hair, so dynamics on such hair in lightwave would be tricky.

Having seen Moana (finally), you could probably get something close to her hair out of FiberFX by tweaking some of the parameters under the styling tab (twirl, splay, etc.). Dynamics would be interesting, though.

prometheus
12-26-2018, 01:44 PM
Do you think you can put this clip on youtube or post it in another format or zipped. I did get red alert from every anti-virus Ive got when trying to open an swf file... isnt that for flash mostly?

- - - Updated - - -



Promotheus, you are gold! Damn, your skills in Lightwave are so interesting to read about!

Thanks Jack.
Me usually thinks...Meh, but good to hear feedback, itīs not crap anyway then :)

Mind you though, ivé spent very little time on 2018 and the fiberfx within that...mostly learning and evolving what I can in hair with blender right now..maybe temporarely till I find a way to render hair faster in Lightwave, I do not see that happening until they get native GPU ..or I would invest in octane maybe..but that is further ahead after I see what next lightwave brings.

Howīs it going for you by the way with the efforts on getting back to the 3d work?
Personally I may have to take a drastic decision about my current non 3d career..If I would ever like to see a future in something 3d Related.