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doctorsunshine
10-20-2018, 01:44 AM
Aah, thanks. This is not actually a new (7-0) feature. It has been in VMC1 from the beginning.

PTZ control is now in the PTZ tab of the config panel for each source assigned to a PTZ camera. (With Premium Access enabled, every source has similar controls, since even non-PTZ sources get Pan and Scan, which is very nearly the same in the UI.)

And I already know many users won't like the new ptz managment. That's quite bad having to go in the input settings to see the thumbnails and presets.

SBowie
10-20-2018, 06:04 AM
And I already know many users won't like the new ptz managment. That's quite bad having to go in the input settings to see the thumbnails and presets.I think this is an area that will see improvement in future, but it's not really all that much more inconvenient even now. As often as not in the past, it was necessary to switch away from the DDR tab to view the PTZ tab. This isn't so different. And CS users often don't bother viewing the thumbnails at all. That said, I'm confident we can make it better.

doctorsunshine
10-24-2018, 11:43 AM
Steve, You don't want to understand why the loose of PTZ tab is a big miss for many of us, including a lot of users I know.

Just having to open a input setting page , just to make a PTZ move with the virtual joystick, is a pain. You tell many users don't care about thumbnails because they manage everything from the panel. Why not, but then you could simply remove that feature !

It's great having PTZ available for each input now, and I don't even talk about vPTZ from the NPA. But, IMHO, and I know I'n not alone here, it's much better to have the PTZ tab with or without the "follow Preview" , than 16 presets hidden deep in a specific page, moreover when you can have only one open at a time.

PTZ presets in the LivePanel might help a bit, but you can only have from the preview selected source, and they can't be set in the builder as well.

JPulera
10-24-2018, 11:56 AM
I feel your pain in regards to this change. How many PTZ cameras do you typically use in a production?

Thanks

Jeff

doctorsunshine
10-24-2018, 02:06 PM
I have customers using up to 6 usually. But I guess that nunber will increase when they'll use virtual PTZ with 4k sources.

SBowie
10-24-2018, 04:37 PM
Just having to open a input setting page , just to make a PTZ move with the virtual joystick, is a pain..I'm going to have to disagree. Very often in the past it was necessary to switch away from the DDR to get to the PTZ tab, and then you had to take the additional step of selecting the correct camera to adjust. Now you can get to virtually the same controls for the camera you want to control with a single click (or double tap on a touch screen).


You tell many users don't care about thumbnails because they manage everything from the panel. Why not, but then you could simply remove that feature.Sorry, I think it must be a translation issue, but I really don't follow you here. I never said thumbnails aren't useful, nor have we removed them.


... than 16 presets hidden deep in a specific page, moreover when you can have only one open at a time.First, they really aren't "deeply hidden", they are exposed in the the default view on the first tab of the config panel, and if you left the panel on that tab it will reopen to the same place again any time later with one click. And on your last point, you could only ever have controls for one camera visible at a time in the PTZ tab, too... and again, often just getting to it required closing the DDR.

rsilva
10-27-2018, 05:33 PM
Sorry, one more vote to the old PTZ layout.

PIZAZZ
11-01-2018, 08:32 AM
I have been reading around and hearing lots of dissension regarding the PTZ tab removal in the latest update. Sometimes change is necessary to achieve the big picture and long term goal. That said, I would rather have the option of the PTZ Tab. Steve has mentioned that people would have to click from the DDR to the PTZ tab anyway. I would have to say though that not every user uses their TC this way. My production team does not. We play the same exact commercials over and over through the day. We never have to look at the DDR. We just Take it. So our PTZ tab stays open all the time when we are using it.
One of our clients is a city council recording setup, they also use the PTZ Tab all the time. They never even use the DDR. For them I was asked if the PTZ Tab could be all the way across the bottom screen like the Audio Mixer. They wanted to see more presets at once. They use 4 PTZ panasonic cameras.

I am sure NewTek is listening. I am also sure that there was a big reason for making this big change. We just need to reteach our workflow now.

Can a Macro call up the settings panel exposing the Thumbnails? I need to check on that.

SBowie
11-01-2018, 08:57 AM
Sometimes change is necessary to achieve the big picture and long term goal. That said, I would rather have the option of the PTZ TabHi Jef, I get that. You can be sure that (like all changes) this was and continues to be discussed at length here. About all I can say is to repeat that we're not finished with this.


Steve has mentioned that people would have to click from the DDR to the PTZ tab anyway.Minor correction here - I said that "Very often people would have to do that". In that case, you actually had an extra click. Otherwise - if the PTZ tab was already up - you would often need to a) select the icon for the PTZ unit you want to control, then b) click a preset ... so in many cases, two clicks, and yes - sometimes just one. With the new implementation, it's always two clicks (assuming you're doing this in the UI, since the CS is a whole other thing), never one ... but you gain more presets, and more camera connections, much larger monitor viewports, the ability to fire presets for PTZs externally using a dedicated page in LivePanel, and you no longer have to wade through three completely panels each time you want to configure another camera.

The point I'm making here is that objectively, it's certainly not all 'cons' and no 'pros'. But again, we're not done. ;)


Can a Macro call up the settings panel exposing the Thumbnails? I need to check on that.Not obviously, I think, but keep in mind that you'd need to be able to open specific config panels, not just one. So, although we make a habit of not pre-announcing things, one detail we plan to implement is a shortcut key to open the config window for whatever source is currently selected on Preview. It's not a complete solution, of course, but it will improve things a bit in this context and also be handy for some other purposes.

PIZAZZ
11-01-2018, 09:13 AM
Thanks for the follow up Steve.

I know you guys are not finished. I definitely get that. The issue with our clients is this change is a major change in their workflow and without them getting the end result now, it makes them very apprehensive of the big change. We can't always assume that LivePanel and the PA subscription is going on every TC1. Adding in other PCs to run LivePanel is also something that not everyone wants or can do.

SBowie
11-01-2018, 09:36 AM
We can't always assume that LivePanel and the PA subscription is going on every TC1.True, I was thinking of that aspect in the context of Premium Access (which of course not everyone will have either).

Adding in other PCs to run LivePanel is also something that not everyone wants or can do.It's awfully nice on an iPad, too. :)

pauldinggov
11-12-2018, 11:26 AM
In the new build of the TC-1 they have moved the PTZ tab to each cameras gear icon. When switching our Board of Commissioners meetings live this is causing many problems as it is adding an extra step to every cam preset switch.
Does anyone else find this to be frustrating? :cursin:

rsilva
11-12-2018, 03:42 PM
(...) "For them I was asked if the PTZ Tab could be all the way across the bottom screen like the Audio Mixer." (...)

That would be the perfect solution for PTZ tab! You surely need to go in that direction (please!!!).

Everything else about this new update is awesome and ty for that.

SBowie
11-12-2018, 06:14 PM
Just to mention it, so it's not something you've not considered - don't overlook the fact that there's now a PTZ page in LivePanel under Premium Access that would give you an outboard way to trigger presets for whichever camera is selected on the Preview row.

pauldinggov
11-13-2018, 06:18 AM
Sorry, one more vote to the old PTZ layout.

one more vote for the PTZ tab!!

rsilva
11-13-2018, 03:27 PM
Just to mention it, so it's not something you've not considered - don't overlook the fact that there's now a PTZ page in LivePanel under Premium Access that would give you an outboard way to trigger presets for whichever camera is selected on the Preview row.

I totally understand the benefits of the LivePanel, and they are huge! We have five TC-1 units all over our conference rooms and auditoriums. Three of these space are facing space issues, so get an extra iPad or Laptop for LivePanel operation is not a option. Please, take care this concern in next updates and bring back the PTZ tab. No problem if it will be a paid feature, but try to understand my point of view, I believe that I'm not alone in this thoughts.

SBowie
11-13-2018, 03:43 PM
I believe that I'm not alone in this thoughts.Not to imply I'm unsympathetic - certainly we want to make our customers happy to the degree we can do that - but I'm still waiting for a good explanation of how the 7-0 implementation actually makes things harder/worse. I say this in complete sincerity, not trying to be provocative - I really want a good case for why it was better before ... even more than one case if possible.

rsilva
11-13-2018, 11:47 PM
(...) ... even more than one case if possible.

I cannot find more than one. But I'll try to expose "the big one".

Just to clarify, in my opinion and all my others colleagues as well, the 7-0 don't make the "things harder/worse". Actually everything as been improved and it makes workflow better. Even the PTZ tilt movemente could be inverted, and that's perfect! The ONLY exeception is the PTZ TAB relocation. I'll try to explain the main reasons:

1 - The 16 INPUT windows should be part of a PRE-PRODUCTION tasks. Clicking there every time to see the PTZ PRESETS makes me feel that I'm not "following the good practices". That menu should only be used to assign SOURCES and not to keep it open all the time. To be honest, in some cases is a bit "dangerous" beeing so close from the input changing windows.

2 - The OLD PTZ TAB make the operators don't need to use the mouse all the time, and that's keep our attention for others things that really matter. We need to "refocus" every time it's necessary to call the INPUT window.

3 - Sometimes we need to see DDR's all the time. Sometimes we need to see AUDIO MIXER all the time. Sometime we need to see PTZ PRESETS all the time (and now it's not possible anymore - or should I kept the INPUT window pop-up open all the time?) - In fact, sometimes when I have less PTZ CAMS available in my procution, I really need to keep the PTZ TAB open all the time (And just check the audiomixer, or DDR's if/when necessary).

TY!

SBowie
11-14-2018, 07:54 AM
A few comments inline.


1 - The 16 INPUT windows should be part of a PRE-PRODUCTION tasks. Clicking there every time to see the PTZ PRESETS makes me feel that I'm not "following the good practices". That menu should only be used to assign SOURCES and not to keep it open all the time.This basically seems to say "I'm used to using the popup window to configure sources. I'm not used to using it to select PTZ presets." I get that it's a change, and changes always trigger a similar response ... but perhaps you might come to feel differently in time.


To be honest, in some cases is a bit "dangerous" beeing so close from the input changing windows.I don't honestly think the source menu is so close to PTZ presets that clicking one presents any real danger of an inadvertently making a source menu selection.


2 - The OLD PTZ TAB make the operators don't need to use the mouse all the time, and that's keep our attention for others things that really matter. We need to "refocus" every time it's necessary to call the INPUT window.Well, actually you can't do anything in the old PTZ pane without the mouse. I do understand that it may take a little more mental 'focus', as you put it, though.


3 - Sometimes we need to see DDR's all the time. Sometimes we need to see AUDIO MIXER all the time. Sometime we need to see PTZ PRESETS all the time (and now it's not possible anymore - or should I kept the INPUT window pop-up open all the time?) - In fact, sometimes when I have less PTZ CAMS available in my procution, I really need to keep the PTZ TAB open all the time (And just check the audiomixer, or DDR's if/when necessary).On the other hand, now you can keep the DDR or Audio Mixer open all the time when that's what you want and still access your PTZ presets. So it's a trade off, neither all 'pro' nor all 'con'.

I do really appreciate your feedback. I'm still interested in hearing any very compelling cases where the V2 PTZ implementation falls far short of its predecessor.

rsilva
11-14-2018, 05:13 PM
I feel that we are playing a game where I have already exhausted all my arguments that could lead me to victory, but I'll insist again XD


I get that it's a change, and changes always trigger a similar response ... but perhaps you might come to feel differently in time.

Adapting to something new is very easy when it's something exponentially better. For me it has been a difficult adaptation, I think I already figured it out, right?


I don't honestly think the source menu is so close to PTZ presets that clicking one presents any real danger of an inadvertently making a source menu selection.

Maybe I have emphasized this "danger", and maybe not!


Well, actually you can't do anything in the old PTZ pane without the mouse. I do understand that it may take a little more mental 'focus', as you put it, though.

I agree. That's why I and other users have already given some thoughts about moving to the perfect solution: A new PTZ TAB, as wide as AUDIO MIXER and with the function of FOLLOW PTZ PREVIEW. It becomes easy to immediately view the presets thumbnails without necessity of using mouse entirely. ALso, the entery PTZ TAB could be call by double tap PTZ SEL button too, following this philosophy: https://support.newtek.com/hc/en-us/articles/220402568-OPTIONS-MENU


On the other hand, now you can keep the DDR or Audio Mixer open all the time when that's what you want and still access your PTZ presets. So it's a trade off, neither all 'pro' nor all 'con'.

When neither all 'pro' nor all 'con', maybe a forum poll help to clarify... Just an idea!


I do really appreciate your feedback. I'm still interested in hearing any very compelling cases where the V2 PTZ implementation falls far short of its predecessor.

Asking that, you will always win. I can work with the V2 changes so in the end you're absolutely right. But is V2 the best solution that can be achieved? (the question remains)

SBowie
11-15-2018, 07:05 AM
Asking that, you will always win.Please don't imagine that I am merely trying to 'win' an argument, or justify the current implementation. When it comes to UI and workflow, there are many approaches, and there are always also passionate advocates who feel strongly about one approach or another. We recognize that every little change we make is going to annoy someone, and equally important, can often result in confusion.

Each change you see, and countless potential changes that were rejected, go through many rounds of discussions just like this one internally and, at times, externally. And the process of continual evaluation and improvement doesn't end upon release. This is part of that process. So I don't actually have a dog in this fight, except to do my best to ensure we hear all the best arguments for various approaches before, during and after implementation.


But is V2 the best solution that can be achieved? (the question remains)I can confidently say "No", it's not the best solution we can achieve. Broadly speaking, we are always working to improve things; more specifically in this instance, I mentioned very early on in this thread that we envisioned further changes. Naturally, any such changes will be made with consideration given to all feedback. :)

BTW, this was the first post in which it has been clear that someone mentioned the PTZ tab as an adjunct to using the CS. Interesting...

doctorsunshine
11-16-2018, 06:25 AM
Interesting as well, how you want to convince everyone that this new "feature" is not as bad as it seems for quite a lot of users. Maybe we could reconsider if one day you tell us WHY this was designed that way.

Yes, we can take the mouse and open another input setting pane , but we have to manually search for the gear , or do a right click or double left click . And then search for the other concerned input to set up another PTZ...

Only one floating pane open at a time. During that time as someone already said, you're not in the working environment. during live prod, it's not good in my opinion, even if it's only a way of thinking.

Having a list of sources aligned, and (even if we have to) from one to the other is much more clear and efficient than having to navigate through the whole UI just for that purpose.

You tell about live panel PTZ feature. Why not, for sure it can help somehow, but now you have to buy an option for that.

I mentionned very early during first presentations in June that many many users would not be happy with that new design, and got the answer Newtek would reconsider. Obviously they did not. They removed a very working feature.

SBowie
11-16-2018, 07:39 AM
Interesting as well, how you want to convince everyone that this new "feature" is not as bad as it seems for quite a lot of users.

I think you overlooked the first sentence in my post.
Please don't imagine that I am merely trying to 'win' an argument, or justify the current implementation.


Yes, we can take the mouse and open another input setting pane , but we have to manually search for the gear , or do a right click or double left click . And then search for the other concerned input to set up another PTZ... On the other hand, previously a lot of users would often have had to find a mid-screen tab much smaller than an ISO monitor to click to switch away from the DDR (or Mixer) view to the PTZ tab, and then click a small thumbnail icon to select the specific camera they wanted to control - losing access to the DDR in the process. So on balance, I'd have to say no clear 'winner' on this point.

If an obvious and compelling advantage for the former approach exists, I'd be just as pleased to hear it as anyone. Until now, though, after the topic has been kicked it around here for a few pages, the preference appears to remain subjective, rather than pragmatic (not suggesting that subjective views are unworthy of consideration, mind you). And yet again, this does not mean we do not continue to listen, or that development in this context is finished.

bwood
11-16-2018, 07:50 AM
If an obvious and compelling advantage for the former approach exists, I'd be just as pleased to hear it as anyone. Until now, though, after the topic has been kicked it around here for a few pages, the preference appears to remain subjective, rather than pragmatic.

I'm going to jump back into the fray here. For us, as a professional broadcaster we simply left the PTZ tab open almost all the time, and just loaded stuff onto DDR 2 or GFX 2, or fed a set monitor from DDR 1 or GFX 1. We only use 3 PTZ cameras plus occasionally a SDI camera or two. Are there that many people using more than 8 PTZ cameras? That seems like a lot to manage all by yourself, all while still cutting a show, managing graphics, video playbacks, etc.

As a side note, I'm not a fan of trying to click the little sprockets to bring up the settings pages. It usually takes me 2-3 clicks in order for the hidden button to appear and to successfully click on it. And then, since the window disappears once you click anywhere else, it makes it more cumbersome to return time and time again to the settings pop-up.

My suggestion would be to have the PTZ control in three places--lower left, lower right AND settings pop-ups for individual cameras. Then everyone would be happy! Another suggestion would be to make the old PTZ Control tab be a pop-out window that I can drag to my second monitor, where the multiviewer lives. Obviously it would have to be a persistent pop-up window, not one that disappears when you click elsewhere.

SBowie
11-16-2018, 08:05 AM
As a side note, I'm not a fan of trying to click the little sprockets to bring up the settings pages.Neither am I. In fact, I virtually never do it. I just double-click the monitor (much bigger target), just like I double-click in the DDR bin to pop up the Media Browser. I mention this just in case it helps, not to quibble.

By the way, although I've never been a fan of switching with a touch-screen - thanks to previous poor experience - with current generation gear this has seriously improved, to the point that its not only usable but is starting to feel like it will eventually be a norm, if not the norm (I really didn't see this coming). The reason I digress here is because if someone is using a touch screen, they may not have noticed that you can quickly and easily 'two-finger tap' an ISO monitor to access the controls. It's really very easy to do this, also works on a Multiview, and seems quite natural and convenient way to control a PTZ camera. For a setup like a council meeting that doesn't already rely on a custom control page, being able to switch with a single tap on a Multiview, and double-tapping the same ISO to change presets works quite well.

bwood
11-16-2018, 08:10 AM
I just double-click the monitor (much bigger target)

Good to know. I hadn't found out that shortcut yet as I don't personally cut shows on the system, so I'll pass word along to our staff.

SBowie
11-16-2018, 08:32 AM
p.s., double-clicking the larger Preview monitor will open the control panel for the source currently on Preview - which, in turn, gives you a very quick way to access the PTZ presets for the camera currently on Preview ... effectively a Follow Preview feature, to reduce hunting around for the correct viewport to use. :)

GeekNews
11-18-2018, 10:59 AM
For those of us that have to switch our own shows the new PTZ layout is devestating. Impossible to manage honestly and not interrup the show flow.

stp_productions
11-18-2018, 07:01 PM
Would be kind of cool if the upper bin that controls the MEs could switch between the ME and a PTZ long tab. If you select PTZ it would show the presets etc. Be able to enable it to follow on preview etc. Hide it when you don't need it.

rsilva
11-20-2018, 03:31 AM
Nice to see this new forum thread on going!

"I'm still interested in hearing any very compelling cases where the V2 PTZ implementation falls far short of its predecessor."

Events type: conferences / "small" live events, with live presentations and recording.

Tricaster TC1 setup detail:

IN 1 - PANASONIC AW-UE70 (SDI)
IN 2 - PANASONIC AW-UE70 (SDI)
IN 3 - PANASONIC AW-UE70 (SDI)
IN 4 - LAPTOP (SDI using decimator MD-LX converter)

OUT 1 - PANASONIC RZ970 PROJECTOR (SDI)

AUDIO IN - XLR L+R from external Midas Audio Mixer
AUDIO OUT - XLR L+R to playback DDR's in room PA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the usual setup in 4 of our auditoriums/conference rooms, all of them with same equipments. This setup and this needs are the same almost every day.

Like I mentioned before: "Sometime we need to see PTZ PRESETS all the time", and this is totaly true in this case. Since we need to set our main focus in recordings/streamings, PTZ PRESETS are vital, of course. I wish I could see presets thumbnails of "Follow Preview" cam all the time, without a pop-up opened in middle of my interface!

To be honest I just need to use the Audio Mixer to verify if the LAPTOP audio source is already set to EMBEDDED. Since V2 (and I'm grateful for that) I can even ajust the LAPTOP audio input from the new input windows fader! Same for DDR's, I just need to playback some short videos (and just when they are delivery early) otherwise they are playback trought the LAPTOP.

SBowie, once again, thank you to make this discussion open!

SBowie
11-20-2018, 09:00 AM
Like I mentioned before: "Sometime we need to see PTZ PRESETS all the time", and this is totaly true in this case. Since we need to set our main focus in recordings/streamings, PTZ PRESETS are vital, of course. I wish I could see presets thumbnails of "Follow Preview" cam all the time, without a pop-up opened in middle of my interface!If you don't mind me asking (just looking for data here), are you using a CS to switch presets, or the UI? IOW, are the thumbnails mere visual aids, or are you clicking them?

rsilva
11-20-2018, 12:35 PM
are you using a CS to switch presets, or the UI?

I'm always using the TC1SP control surface. I've forgot to mention that befora, sorry.


are the thumbnails mere visual aids, or are you clicking them?

They are not "mere visual aids", they are really very very important visual aids! In fact, our entire discussion is all about that. It's very unusual get the mouse to clicking directly in thumbnails.

SBowie
11-20-2018, 12:37 PM
It's very unusual get the mouse to clicking directly in thumbnails.For you ...that's not the case for everyone, which is why I want to be clear about the sort of workflow each one commenting is using - thanks.

rsilva
11-20-2018, 12:40 PM
For you ...that's not the case for everyone, which is why I want to be clear about the sort of workflow each one commenting is using - thanks.



Of course I'm just talking about me and my team behaviors. I've use the mouse several times too, but the main question is that the thumbnails are vital in this process.

Did my case count?

SBowie
11-20-2018, 01:21 PM
Of course I'm just talking about me and my team behaviors. I've use the mouse several times too, but the main question is that the thumbnails are vital in this process.

Did my case count? Every case counts. :)

rsilva
11-20-2018, 01:28 PM
Every case counts. :)

ufff :D