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johlanga
10-11-2018, 12:38 PM
Hi,
Here are a thread for my input on how Lightwave can use it's current GUI/workflow as a strong turning point for something fresh and NEW :)

A picture of my current GUI setup in Modeler 11.6.3 as a teaser. More follows in next couple of weeks....
143082

Rayek
10-11-2018, 12:58 PM
New being that you use alien hieroglyphics as an alternative to human readable text characters and words?

50one
10-11-2018, 01:09 PM
-==- and then <|> to [ũ]

johlanga
10-11-2018, 01:21 PM
New being that you use alien hieroglyphics as an alternative to human readable text characters and words?

It's based on how you can use research on human cognition perception and enhance the current text based GUI with symbols, and at the same time preserve the feel of what makes LW unique.

The pic. above are quite dens with new symbols. I have grown so used to them that i don't find them alien :)

In the coming posts I'm going to be more principal and explain basic points......

Rayek
10-11-2018, 01:52 PM
It's based on how you can use research on human cognition perception and enhance the current text based GUI with symbols, and at the same time preserve the feel of what makes LW unique.

The pic. above are quite dens with new symbols. I have grown so used to them that i don't find them alien :)

In the coming posts I'm going to be more principal and explain basic points......

That is called progressive reduction - as an expert, you've grown used to the symbols, and they work to YOUR level of expertise. Not to mention that YOU have invented them, of course.

The problem is that symbols and icons just don't vibe well with advanced concepts, and even very simple one-to-one signifiers such as a menu icon may not be understood by a relatively large percentage of people.

Remember Truespace? A veritable forest of icons, and it was extremely messy and cognitive overload was the result.

Icons without labels just don't work well in a conceptually complex environment, and the more are added, the worse it gets. Even an application such as Cinema4D limits the use of them to a single row at the top of the screen. Ask the average user whether they understand an icon for "bevel" better than the word "bevel" itself.

Worse, if the user switches a lot between 3d applications, an entirely new semiotic world just gets in the way of doing the job.

And your attempt by using existing character symbols to create new symbols is more akin to shaping a new symbolic language using existing parts - not being quite icons. A fun personal exercise, of course. The usefulness for other users remains very doubtful (which is an understatement).

But don't let me stop you, and have fun!

Ztreem
10-11-2018, 02:09 PM
Hi,
Here are a thread for my input on how Lightwave can use it's current GUI/workflow as a strong turning point for something fresh and NEW :)

A picture of my current GUI setup in Modeler 11.6.3 as a teaser. More follows in next couple of weeks....
143082

Sorry, but fresh & new is not what comes to mind when I see your screenshot.

Markc
10-11-2018, 02:25 PM
Hi,
Here are a thread for my input on how Lightwave can use it's current GUI/workflow as a strong turning point for something fresh and NEW :)

A picture of my current GUI setup in Modeler 11.6.3 as a teaser. More follows in next couple of weeks....
143082

Why................:confused:
What is the point of changing every button to something nobody understands.

kyleprometheus
10-12-2018, 11:43 AM
What I like about Lightwave 3D's interface. It does what it says (!) on the tin.

Regards,

Kyle.

- - - Updated - - -

Though the bit of colour here and there in the idea about isn't a bad idea.

I do like the new 'dark grey' look over the silver/grey interface which was ok, though.

I find LW3D's interface simple and elegance.

Regards,

Kyle.

jbrookes
10-12-2018, 01:27 PM
Well said. I totally agree.

While interesting, the screen-shot doesn't really show anything that (IMHO) improves the interface.

Personally, all I think Modeler needs is a few tool enhancements to make it easier to do off-axis detailing, a way to round off edges of complex objects without polygon errors, easier UVs, and a really good real-time 3D paint system. Otherwise, I really like it as it is.

prometheus
10-12-2018, 03:56 PM
Itīs interesting, but it really fails to work for me, and I would give an advanced guess that it fails for most people as well as being hard to read.
It looks like Icon/ symbol based approach, not Icon/image based approach..where the latter probably could describe the process better, where the former describes it simpler in itīs symbol form, but not necessarely easier to understand.

I am afraid I would take most Houdini Icons together with text Anytime over this interface.

Apart from the difficult to distinguish Icon symbol buttons, you would need to reduce amount of various button colors
, to me it is frankly a mess with bad color contrast in some cases where white text lies on top of a very white grey button, and Dark violet text on light violet buttons..to me this is very bad in terms of UI colors.

In my opinion, if the UI should be enhanced in color and icons, they need to make it happen to change in realtime, and for icons, there are the creation of objects that foremost is the easiest to describe with Icons, cube, sphere, toroid, cone etc...most of us wouldnīt have to second guess those tools if represented with good Icons, and it would be faster to recognize in a toolset.

Though I would like to have a way of entering shelves..like in houdini with these tools.
Now I do not want the developers to go bunkers and make it a goal to try to add icons for every tab/ button, start softly with the above should be enough.

gar26lw
10-13-2018, 09:08 AM
sorry, no. if it was like that pic i’d never use it. what lightwave needs is tool enhancement and consolidation.
some ui work but more like docking panels and standardized ui elements, data fields etc. multi select and editing, industry standard nav shortcuts and gizmos, with options to customize to the individuals needs and desires.
So, you can have it look exactly as you picture, for your preference and everyone else can have it their way.
everyone’s happy, with the default that of industry standards. undo, of course too :)

whether that happens, whether they listen, i don’t know.

prometheus
10-13-2018, 03:15 PM
sorry, no. if it was like that pic i’d never use it. what lightwave needs is tool enhancement and consolidation.
some ui work but more like docking panels and standardized ui elements, data fields etc. multi select and editing, industry standard nav shortcuts and gizmos, with options to customize to the individuals needs and desires.
So, you can have it look exactly as you picture, for your preference and everyone else can have it their way.
everyone’s happy, with the default that of industry standards. undo, of course too :)

whether that happens, whether they listen, i don’t know.

The problem with that symbol/icon based interface is that you would have to engage a lot more of your brain..trying to interpreting what it would do...
more so ever than a what you would have to interprete with a good Icon image depicting a geometrical process.

ianr
10-14-2018, 05:38 AM
The problem with that symbol/icon based interface is that you would have to engage a lot more of your brain..trying to interpreting what it would do...
more so ever than a what you would have to interprete with a good Icon image depicting a geometrical process.

No Bannanaaaa! ATM

prometheus
10-14-2018, 06:19 AM
No Bannanaaaa! ATM

Just donīt want that comment to be hanging there as an unknown fruit, clarification of what kind it is may be needed here :)
I am sure some folks understand that comment:D
I can only guess though..that it is a no to something(or agreeing?)... but something in this case is very unspecific.

prometheus
10-14-2018, 06:28 AM
For polishing the UI slightly...I would like to have it more like blenders menu where you create, modify etc...meaning that a text label for a category...Isnīt per itself a clickable function..ergo it shouldnīt be designed within a button frame, as all the lightwave categories are designed, it should simply be text directly in the menu, and under that we can have the tool commands as buttons..just like blender does it, this also helps distinguish the text from each other in releation to wether or not it is clickable or not..and itīs function of course.

In lightwave there is only a color difference between the category Label and the underlying tool commands, It simply looks bad, today we also have it divided with extra space dividers, which only makes the UI looks more cluttered/divided..instead of just removing it..making the category labels work on the main menus directly with controllable color etc.

motiondigital
10-14-2018, 07:17 AM
My Idea of a intuitive interface, did this in my spare time:

143087

Most of the tools need to be combined / refined / beefed up / debugged

A lot of the tools in lightwave are hidden and need to be iconed, and prominent, like:

1) Action centre (mouse +F5, origin +F6 etc)

2) Co-ordinated system (local/world)

3) Pivot tool

A contextual menu where you combine similar tools and place an icon next to them as a visual clue to their function.

motiondigital
10-14-2018, 07:19 AM
Another screen shot

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Markc
10-14-2018, 07:55 AM
Really don’t see the point of icons and text, waste’s too much screen space......:hey:
However I do like the clean/fresh look..:)

prometheus
10-14-2018, 09:56 AM
Really don’t see the point of icons and text, waste’s too much screen space......:hey:
However I do like the clean/fresh look..:)

I disagree, both icon and text is ideal in my opinion, but of course it will be individual as well.
The thing is, an icon will lead you faster to the desired tool(in most cases), and the text will shut down any question you have about being the right tool or not.

That said, I think it only works on horisontal menus and shelfs..that is to have both text and icons.
The Ideal UI for me is houdinis shelf.

If we could have either icons or text in a left vertical menu, but once clicked on itīs category, or a little icon next to the labeled category to click up all the tools in the menu within a shelf...this would also allow to jam packmany many tools without hiding it under more drop downs, and you would instead either scroll in the shelf, or zoom scroll to get smaller icons and thus more buttons to choose from, this would be optional and the tools would still be able to run verticly as buttons in the left menu.

With expandable left menus, for the categorys, we could expand or collapse the category menu to the left to have more category menus available within a small area, and just click on it and you will have a shelf with all tools within that category instead.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yyNddGPhcEg/VttP1KrynjI/AAAAAAAAjns/I1uj5aqdN4Y/s1600/shelf_menu.png

CaptainMarlowe
10-14-2018, 10:28 AM
My Idea of a intuitive interface, did this in my spare time:

143087

Most of the tools need to be combined / refined / beefed up / debugged

A lot of the tools in lightwave are hidden and need to be iconed, and prominent, like:

1) Action centre (mouse +F5, origin +F6 etc)

2) Co-ordinated system (local/world)

3) Pivot tool

A contextual menu where you combine similar tools and place an icon next to them as a visual clue to their function.

Nice

prometheus
10-14-2018, 12:06 PM
Another screen shot

143088

I really like this and the other image UI mockup, quite clean and good icons, though I think it can be polished.
I would start by toning down the blue highlight color for the representation of what tab/menu is selected, I think it should only differentiate from what is not selected..and not popup distract in such way
it may do right now with that very saturated blue color.

However..I see an issue with only one model tab, and trying to fit all tools in the left menu, for a more wider view of as many menus and tabs as possible, I think it should try and work the same as in modeler..if we are to get a full set of modeling tools in Layout.
This means a main menu that runs horisontally from left to right Once a model button is checked, otherwise you would have to stack so much of it under more drop down lists, or we have to make the left menu expand and collapsable...As in blender, switch to a layout UI form, and you will have the same stuff as we do now...itīs just a switch that is needed.

God forbid ..I do not want to see the modo and blender vertical unreadable tabs with letters going verticly rotated -90 degrees..which setīs each category.

hrgiger
10-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Looks like CORE.

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gcbotas
10-14-2018, 05:12 PM
please leave lightwave GUI alone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqSTXuJeTks

prometheus
10-15-2018, 04:01 AM
Looks like CORE.

143100

Not that much really, only similarity is that the left menu has icon and text and no button framing, and that style is commonly used with other software today, the upper menu and the rest is completly different.
I thought the core UI sucked, and that this particular UI mockup actually looks much better, itīs softer/cleaner, and the main menu is divided in to tabs..unlike core, which actually pronounces what you have selected as a working area.

prometheus
10-15-2018, 10:36 AM
Almost 9 years ago since Matt Gorner presented his experimental UI, It seems that not much of it has made it into 2018.
http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_vx2/

Morgan Nilsson
10-15-2018, 12:25 PM
I really like the UI design you made @motiondigital!

Reminds me a little bit of one of Matt Gorners alternative vx2 designs: http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_vx2/gfx/LightWave_Layout_vX2_Dark_Glass_Theme.png

prometheus
10-15-2018, 01:53 PM
I really like the UI design you made @motiondigital!

Reminds me a little bit of one of Matt Gorners alternative vx2 designs: http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_vx2/gfx/LightWave_Layout_vX2_Dark_Glass_Theme.png

Agree.

One thing I do not like with the highlighted edges in the tabs in the UI, and it is the same with new firefox tabs, it was there on the core tabs, it is there in make human UI, and it is there in the sample image of the glass theme,
I simply get annoyed and think it looks awful when you have a tab selected, which in many cases is highlighted as a full tab anyway..why the double indication highlight.

If this UI wasnīt faked in terms of the Nodes, then the nodes looked far better than what we got today, still no smooth rubberband connections..as seen here.

http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/gfx/LightWave_CORE_vX2_Theme_Q3R1_Light.png

Marander
10-15-2018, 03:08 PM
Another screen shot

Well done mock ups, clean and pleasing UI.

The ones at the beginning of the thread by the original poster are the complete opposite.

There are small companies or individuals coming up with new tools having great and functional UI designs in weeks or months. Nothing was done for LW for many years. It actually got worse in some parts.

Docking / undocking, expanding / collapsing, duplicating and locking panels, free positioning, custom layouts / workspaces, customizable, context-sensitive and scalable menus and palettes (rows, orientation, size, Text / Icon / Icon&Text) should be the very basic foundation of any 2D or 3D application's UI today. Same goes for Undo of course.

Marander
10-15-2018, 03:51 PM
Almost 9 years ago since Matt Gorner presented his experimental UI, It seems that not much of it has made it into 2018.
http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_vx2/

Interesting find. Well that says a lot.

Text from that ancient page (and I find these ideas would not have been much of an improvement even back then in 2002 - 2010):

"The original vX project started back in 2002, as an exercise in UI design for NewTek's LightWave 3D application, and was made public in February 2003.

The goals of the project were to suggest ideas that could help bring LightWave's interface up to date both visually, and more importantly, made it easier and faster to use for new and old users alike.

Until recently, the vX project was somewhat of a pipe dream as LightWave's architecture was far too old to allow such ideas."

Tim Parsons
10-15-2018, 03:57 PM
then the nodes looked far better than what we got today, still no smooth rubberband connections..as seen here.



Not sure I follow. Maybe not the best AA in the world, but pretty "rubberbandy" to me. :)
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motiondigital
10-16-2018, 03:37 AM
Hi All

This is an update to my earlier UI/UX design. I spoke earlier about a contextual menu that should combine similar tools into a group.

This is a work in progress.

143113143112143114143115

prometheus
10-16-2018, 03:57 AM
Not sure I follow. Maybe not the best AA in the world, but pretty "rubberbandy" to me. :)
143104

Honestly, the node connection in Lightwave look horrible, open blender, houdini or modo and compare...add to that the limited zoom function wich isnīt present in houdini or blender, add to that the much more softer color scheme in blender and houdini.
What Lightwave got going for nodes, that is the amount of node functions (Even though it lost dpont nodes) Blender has a somewhat limited range of nodes.
I also prefer how smooth it is to navigate in the nodes with scroll zoom and middle mouse pan in blender, itīs almost the same in houdini..while navigating within nodes in Lightwave isnīt my cup of tea .
.
Rubberband connection can be rubberbandy, that doesnīt mean they are pretty ..when the whole issue was that they are poorly antialiased, and the question was not if they are rubberband or not.

Otterman
10-16-2018, 07:34 AM
You guys do my head in. I check in now and again to see what the lightwave community is knocking out on the forums and all I see is the same people either moaning about the lack of progress or hypothesis about the future of LW. Its a boring perpetual circle.

Do you guys do any actual work? Wheres the creativity? I mean theres next to nothing in the gallery or work in progress threads....pffft!

safetyman
10-16-2018, 08:48 AM
What prompted discussion about a new UI? Reminds me of old Blender forum posts... what was that... 2013?

OnlineRender
10-16-2018, 10:35 AM
@motion I actually like that , very pretty but for working I can only imagine it getting laggy and not very productive, it does replicate the new blender ui theme somewhat... it does give you food for thought.

prometheus
10-16-2018, 10:56 AM
You guys do my head in. I check in now and again to see what the lightwave community is knocking out on the forums and all I see is the same people either moaning about the lack of progress or hypothesis about the future of LW. Its a boring perpetual circle.

Do you guys do any actual work? Wheres the creativity? I mean theres next to nothing in the gallery or work in progress threads....pffft!

Why are you even jumping in ..if you feel it does your head in, just drop out of the UI discussions if you are bored with it...it will spare your head, engaging in it may just be as Moaning back to the moaners with equally boring results.

Is it really taking you by surprise that people complain (moan) when there still isnīt happening anything for so long time with the UI?
would it actually in some mysterious way improve the UI if we just
did our work to the gallery and pretend as everything is just fine as it is?

I donīt get the idea of Your questionary? "Do you guys do any actual work? " would that be an requirement for the allowance to continue to discuss the UI? or in some case needed as
something to validate that we know what we are talking about?

There are loads of factors that individuals or groups of people here in the community doesnīt do any work, One of the factors may be that they have reduced their working time within
Lightwave and use something else that feels better, that doesnīt mean they wouldnīt have any hope or do not care about the future develeopment of Lightwave...and discussions about the UI
Can still serve as feedback for the Lw team, Once they put this on the Agenda...ergo, itīs unlikely it is just a waste of moaning.

The amount of work or quality of work from any individual, doesnīt by any factor Improve the Lightwave UI...where it is lacking today.
If you have followed the discussion, you can evidently see mockups, suggestions...and not just pure complaints without any constructive criticism.

prometheus
10-16-2018, 11:08 AM
What prompted discussion about a new UI? Reminds me of old Blender forum posts... what was that... 2013?

What prompted A discussion about a new UI?
Well...Jolanga did ..since he just had his input version of a possible new UI, for 2020...if there is any Lightwave release that year and with that name.
What motivated him?..No idea, except for that One may suspect that the long time of no real UI vamping up in Lightwave may be the cause of it.

prometheus
10-16-2018, 11:21 AM
Hi All

This is an update to my earlier UI/UX design. I spoke earlier about a contextual menu that should combine similar tools into a group.

This is a work in progress.

143113143112143114143115

I think you do really good icons and clean stuff mostly, though the additional transform tool menu, is running verticly, where I think It should be running horizontally like a shelf tool, I think it would occupy less space and distract less.
Setup as a tab naming convention I have always questioned, wouldnīt it be more helpful to re-name it as "Rig" setup could mean so much more outside of rigging, where in fact it just deals with rigging, I believe any newcomer would find it much easier to find the rigging tools when searching for rigging, not setup.

the model layout tabs I wonder if they wouldnīt be better of staying in a static left split menu for those two options, not buttons under eachother, but split next to eachother..constantly visible (if a UI could handle that)
this would open up for the main menu to constantly just feed you input on either model main menu tabs, or if you click on layout, it would show only layout scene tools main menus in that top row...with the model and layout tabs gone from that place, I think it would get more space for other tabs and it would be more focused.

wyattharris
10-16-2018, 12:23 PM
Hi,
Here are a thread for my input on how Lightwave can use it's current GUI/workflow as a strong turning point for something fresh and NEW :)

A picture of my current GUI setup in Modeler 11.6.3 as a teaser. More follows in next couple of weeks....
143082

I don't see too much different other than the labels.
I'm curious about your thought process behind the symbols you chose. Interested to hear more.

Tim Parsons
10-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Honestly, the node connection in Lightwave look horrible, open blender, houdini or modo and compare...add to that the limited zoom function wich isnīt present in houdini or blender, add to that the much more softer color scheme in blender and houdini.
What Lightwave got going for nodes, that is the amount of node functions (Even though it lost dpont nodes) Blender has a somewhat limited range of nodes.
I also prefer how smooth it is to navigate in the nodes with scroll zoom and middle mouse pan in blender, itīs almost the same in houdini..while navigating within nodes in Lightwave isnīt my cup of tea .
.
Rubberband connection can be rubberbandy, that doesnīt mean they are pretty ..when the whole issue was that they are poorly antialiased, and the question was not if they are rubberband or not.

When you say " still no smooth rubberband connections..as seen here" are you referring to the AA or that we don't "have" rubberband connections? I read it as we don't have rubberband connections - which of course we do. It did kind of puzzle me that you wouldn't know that. :)

I guess they look okay, but I'm sure a good designer could improve upon them. As far as function goes they need some help. I would like to see a way to disable a connection without disconnecting it as well as the node window having the same navigation as other viewports within LW.

prometheus
10-16-2018, 02:47 PM
When you say " still no smooth rubberband connections..as seen here" are you referring to the AA or that we don't "have" rubberband connections? I read it as we don't have rubberband connections - which of course we do. It did kind of puzzle me that you wouldn't know that. :)

I guess they look okay, but I'm sure a good designer could improve upon them. As far as function goes they need some help. I would like to see a way to disable a connection without disconnecting it as well as the node window having the same navigation as other viewports within LW.

You shouldnīt guess they look ok, either they do look ok for you or not :) for me they look very bad in comparison to three major packages, and I havenīt looked at maya and max for ages..so do not know there, itīs just that the lack of a smoother look, it simply taints the overall impression of Lightwave as not being modern.

Ivīe never said we do not have rubberband connections, if I wanted to point out that we do not have rubberband connections, I would have written..we do not have rubberband connections:D
Now I said..smooth rubberband connections, but sure..I could have emphasized it a bit more as smooth AA rubberband connections, never crossed my mind it could be interpreted wrong..since we always had rubberband connections...I think.

I like how I can add a node inbetween other nodes In blender, without disconnecting the main node, like adding a multiply node inbetween an image node ..just drag and place it on the rubberband between image node and output nodes and it will automaticly connect there, that is not possible in Lightwave today, you would have to disconnect the image node from the output node, and reroute it to the multiply node, then reroute the multiply node to the output node.

On the other hand, image nodes in blender lack invert options..which sort of drives me a little crazy, where in lightwave ....the image node has an invert function built into that very image node, so yes...some things are better in Lightwave when dealing with nodes, I also appreciate all the procedurals and nodes (though dpont procedurals in node form took a beating) blenders fractal nodes are very thin actually and not in the same range as Lightwave.
Other than that...working with the UI within the nodes in blender is a more softer nicer experience.

I think I would rate node improvents like this...

1. I need to zoom in much much more...please fix.
2. fix the Rubberband AA
3. fix navigation to zoom with scroll mouse, and pan middle mouse click move.
4. make place in between node connections working with drag and place (like blender) it will be a smoother faster workflow.
5. make outside settings for textures etc work better with the connections of nodes, you can connect nodes within a material in the surface tab in blender, the direct communication between these elements are better implemented in blender, so that is something they could work on.

and more can be done.

Tim Parsons
10-16-2018, 03:57 PM
I think for the most part LW looks pretty good. But looks and how it works are two different things, so before they put a pretty picture on it I hope they fix some of it's outdated paradigms. These designs by motiondigital look pretty good, however I really like Matt's design style as well.

VonBon
10-16-2018, 08:17 PM
I know some don't agree.

But I think they should base it on HTML & CSS.
Then a multitude of people can create all kinds of GUI's.

VonBon
10-16-2018, 08:22 PM
Would be crazy if the connections were nodal arrangements in the node editor.

All vector based graphics for the interface.

sadkkf
10-17-2018, 02:09 PM
I'm pretty okay with the UI as it is, with the very prominent exception of tabs.

Tabs need to be as wide as the text on them by default. Dialogs needs to be as wide as they need to be to fit them. Abbreviating text is a fail, IMO.

And I couldn't care less how the node lines look as long as it's clear to me what links to what. AA is not at all important to me.

jwiede
10-17-2018, 04:05 PM
I think for the most part LW looks pretty good. But looks and how it works are two different things, so before they put a pretty picture on it I hope they fix some of it's outdated paradigms. These designs by motiondigital look pretty good, however I really like Matt's design style as well.

In practice, the two are efffectively linked. Switching to Qt or another more modern UI/UX engine as replacement for the main UI engine and infrastructure will bring all sorts of improvements in 2D glyph/curve/line rendering, HiDPI support, and general UI appearance, because those cross-platform GP UI toolkits are all "up-to-date" in that regard (unlike LW's native UI engine).

djlithium
10-17-2018, 05:35 PM
No thanks. I will take text.

jwiede
10-17-2018, 07:30 PM
No thanks. I will take text.

Pragmatically, whatever direction they go (again, seems like Qt has already been selected), the new UI engine needs to support icons, text, icons & text, etc. -- and Qt does. There's just no good justification in this day and age for being limited to one or the other by the UI engine itself. A decently flexible, configurable UI should support whichever the user selects.

Tim Parsons
10-17-2018, 07:50 PM
In practice, the two are efffectively linked. Switching to Qt or another more modern UI/UX engine as replacement for the main UI engine and infrastructure will bring all sorts of improvements in 2D glyph/curve/line rendering, HiDPI support, and general UI appearance, because those cross-platform GP UI toolkits are all "up-to-date" in that regard (unlike LW's native UI engine).

I was surprised how poorly QT was implemented in Core. Sloooooow. So far with what QT they have added to 2018 I am very impressed.

RPSchmidt
10-18-2018, 08:45 AM
Hi All

This is an update to my earlier UI/UX design. I spoke earlier about a contextual menu that should combine similar tools into a group.

This is a work in progress.

143113143112143114143115

I really like the clean appearance, the combination of tools and flyouts, and the structure.

I would condense the OBJECT / MATERIAL / IMAGE tab and just have an OBJECT tab with MATERIAL and IMAGE as subs, context-sensitive.

That way, when I click on an object, a dropdown shows all of the materials applied to the object with arrows beside each material for a material settings flyout for their specific properties and the image editor open below that so that when I select a material with an image, it automatically opens it.

I also wish all of the buttons and tabs were more compressed; not miniscule, but smaller and thinner than they are now.

Also, I seriously dislike the transform tool shown here; it reminds me of Truespace and I wasn't a big fan of that tool. It always seemed really clunky.

I wonder how difficult this would be to prototype in Adobe XD using UWP?

jwiede
10-18-2018, 05:35 PM
Also, I seriously dislike the transform tool shown here; it reminds me of Truespace and I wasn't a big fan of that tool. It always seemed really clunky.


I believe that's a direct copy of the LW11-and-beyond Modeler Transform tool's gizmo.

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pbaroque20
10-18-2018, 07:31 PM
I use the modified Transform tool gizmo. I really enjoy to work with aesthetically pleasing things lol. Would be cool to switch these around easily inside of Modeler to fit a user's taste.

143138

prometheus
10-20-2018, 05:35 AM
I use the modified Transform tool gizmo. I really enjoy to work with aesthetically pleasing things lol. Would be cool to switch these around easily inside of Modeler to fit a user's taste.

143138

Maybe a bit off topic, more of a tool function than the UI perhaps... but in blender for instance, it is nice to have a gizmo available (optional to turn of that widget is available) when you hit "e" for extend ...by default the extension will be done in the normal direction, which
is great, while in Lightwave it is required to use ctrl to constrain the extended direction, I think that is not as smooth and good as in blender, using another extend direction than the normal direction is in my eyes not
so frequently needed..as a normal direction, now in blender you can use the gizmo handles to extend at any direction you want...and as said, if you do not want the gizmo handle, just turn it off.

But generally it is that workflow of extending in normal direction by default that makes things easier in blender...and on top of that, you do not have to hit "e" and "t" for move translate, it is all happening in one go with blenders extender, a double workflow principle in Lightwave that blender doesnīt have, and I wish Lightwave devs could try and match that.

Note edit, the only similar tool in Lightwave would be using multishift, it would be nice though to have that ease of use in the extend tool.

Ztreem
10-20-2018, 11:31 AM
Maybe a bit off topic, more of a tool function than the UI perhaps... but in blender for instance, it is nice to have a gizmo available (optional to turn of that widget is available) when you hit "e" for extend ...by default the extension will be done in the normal direction, which
is great, while in Lightwave it is required to use ctrl to constrain the extended direction, I think that is not as smooth and good as in blender, using another extend direction than the normal direction is in my eyes not
so frequently needed..as a normal direction, now in blender you can use the gizmo handles to extend at any direction you want...and as said, if you do not want the gizmo handle, just turn it off.

But generally it is that workflow of extending in normal direction by default that makes things easier in blender...and on top of that, you do not have to hit "e" and "t" for move translate, it is all happening in one go with blenders extender, a double workflow principle in Lightwave that blender doesnīt have, and I wish Lightwave devs could try and match that.

Note edit, the only similar tool in Lightwave would be using multishift, it would be nice though to have that ease of use in the extend tool.

In LW if you activate move first then use ’e’, then it works quite smooth. Still it lacks easy constrain to all axis,normal, gizmo and snapping so in this regard Blender is superior. ( like in most things) I get amazed every day using blender, it’s so fun.

prometheus
10-20-2018, 12:57 PM
In LW if you activate move first then use ’e’, then it works quite smooth. Still it lacks easy constrain to all axis,normal, gizmo and snapping so in this regard Blender is superior. ( like in most things) I get amazed every day using blender, it’s so fun.

Well..I donīt think so, itīs only valid for when extending a poly at one direction at the time, selecting another poly and extending will force you to hit "t" either first or after the extension, while I am more using the extender or various polys to build shapes..which means every other poly could be a different poly than the first selected.

With blender you just click your face extend automaticly in normal direction and move in one go, pick another poly and do the same, itīs soo much smoother.

If you use the tweak tool and right mouse to click, you would only have to hold ctrl in to constrain to normal direction, but you could freely just hover over any surface, in fact that is in someway smoother than blender extend since you do not have to hit "e" for extend, nor select a polyface at all, so maybe that is the most equal operation..where it only lacks auto normal direction extending, implementing that...and also multi hovering select faces..and they really got something..cause extending in blender can be done with multiselections, while the tweak tool only works on one polyface selection.

The tweak tool in Lightwave can be twirky and not extending properly in the direction you want sometimes though, and instead just extending it perpendicular to itīs own normal face.(not sure if I described that right)

prometheus
10-21-2018, 09:33 AM
If you guys didnīt know, I didnīt...learning everyday :)

In Lightwave 2015.3..
You can actually also use extender with the transform tool, so select your polyface or multiple selected faces, activate transform tool to get the gizmo, and hit "e" for extend and move the extension with the transform tool.
This means you can get a constrained move by moving the gizmo, and you can also scale uniformly,or stretch or rotate, then just hit extend again for new extrusions ..the transform tool will still be active until you drop it, so
those work together.

Though I wish it could work by hovering over a polyface and click to drag..like the tweak tool, a merge of this tool into one would be sweet, the transform tool has similar hovering select like the tweak tool, but it only seems to work for aligning the transform tool pivot position, Itīs not actually performing a selection to move or scale.

prometheus
10-21-2018, 03:34 PM
Double post

prometheus
10-21-2018, 03:39 PM
Just noticed today..
Creating icons/mockups..

Inkscape, adding your own 3d obj file formats to load in to inskape, and use ...Render/3D polyhedron.
By default there are some shapes in there, but you can export out any obj file..and save it under..
C:\Program Files\Inkscape\share\extensions\Poly3DObjects

That is where the main shapes are, the file size will probably be a lot larger, but it works.
It seems to take in to account the front viewport in Lightwave for rotation etc, so you may want to rotate your object in other viewports to have a perspective look directly when loading in inkscape,
now you can also leave it as it is in Lightwave, and rotate it in the Render 3D Polyhedron settings, but I think itīs a bit tricky to get right...at least for the fact I recently just learnt about it.

You can set opacity and color, but I would suggest to skip that and deal with all that in the object fill tab, and stroke tabs..you can deactive the strokes (no wireframe) make them any color you want, lower opacity etc.
You can scale this object layer in inkscape without loosing quality as well.

May be of use for those who wants to add icons, unless just rendering out images(that means scaling restrictions), or creating it manually vector based, as this is converted to vectors you can always scale as you want.
Stroke style can be anything, in stroke size or use dashed or whatever.

When you use load from file in inskape render / 3D polyhedron...there is no browser to locate the file, just set it to load from file, and paste the name of your exported lightwave obj file into the filename field, and it should load the obj..donīt forget to check live preview.



https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143162&d=1540157358


https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143163&d=1540157395


https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143164&d=1540157435

3dhotshot
10-25-2018, 06:18 PM
mmm i quite like how chronosculpt ui is ...

djlithium
10-25-2018, 08:13 PM
mmm i quite like how chronosculpt ui is ...

that's curious. Because its poorly laid out in my opinion whe it comes to the navigation butons at the top which should be over on the right hand side just like in modeler or layour so you can easily get at them and they also 'overlay' over geometry without a backer making them hard to see and too easy to hit geometry with your tool rather tan the navigation because its in the center of the window where geometry normally is going to be all the time. So.. BAD UI.

pbaroque20
10-26-2018, 09:38 PM
It's kinda nice to be able to at least change the font and sizing through a command line. I recently switched the font to Open Sans and LW looks so much cleaner.

143226

143225

prometheus
10-27-2018, 03:26 AM
It's kinda nice to be able to at least change the font and sizing through a command line. I recently switched the font to Open Sans and LW looks so much cleaner.

143226

143225

Yes, looks a little better...the default fonts is more condensed and also larger height, and especially noticable in the values number settings.
You also changed the list background color to a similar tone as modo has, I prefer that as well..it is slightly more saturated towards a blue grey tone and it helps distinguis black text better than the default pure desatururated black on grey.

kopperdrake
10-27-2018, 04:00 AM
Just donīt want that comment to be hanging there as an unknown fruit, clarification of what kind it is may be needed here :)
I am sure some folks understand that comment:D
I can only guess though..that it is a no to something(or agreeing?)... but something in this case is very unspecific.

I know I'm late to the conversation but I can't let the banana hang like this :)

Options are "Close, but no cigar" or "Nice try, but no cigar", widely attributed to the prize of a cigar in old US fairground competitions.

"Close, but no no banana" is the one I also know better, and use, but the only thing I can come up with is down to all my reading of Garfield as a kid:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/bc/d0/eabcd0de1cb34aa9e632241b97e0cc2d.jpg

pbaroque20
10-27-2018, 09:30 AM
Yes, looks a little better...the default fonts is more condensed and also larger height, and especially noticable in the values number settings.
You also changed the list background color to a similar tone as modo has, I prefer that as well..it is slightly more saturated towards a blue grey tone and it helps distinguis black text better than the default pure desatururated black on grey.

If you know other UI fonts I would be happy to try them out. :-). Regarding your post on icons, I think LW should make the option for a icon/text based UI. Inkscape is a great tool and I think users would customize LW icons if that option was available. It makes things so much more friendlier towards the user knowing that there could be UI packs, which can include UI colors, and gizmos as well. Hopefully their QT UI will be developed further for that kind of thing. I love to mod my Windows 7 visuals to make it look like Win 10, and my bottom screen has a pop-up similar to the Mac's dock for easy software access, and main toolbar is set on top like the Mac. OD Pie Menu system has something for context-based menus and it does help; eventually I'll have to get that but unfortunately it's only for Layout. My left-mouse button context menu in modeler is such a huge list taking up the whole screen of modeling tools and utilities which would be cool to split into two tables. That convenience should be native.

papou
10-30-2018, 10:35 AM
It's kinda nice to be able to at least change the font and sizing through a command line. I recently switched the font to Open Sans and LW looks so much cleaner.

143226

143225


The font's support from the shortcut path is not conveniant.
I never has been able to handle change font when switching from Layout to Modeler (with hub).

jwiede
10-30-2018, 03:06 PM
The font's support from the shortcut path is not conveniant.
I never has been able to handle change font when switching from Layout to Modeler (with hub).

There's no good reason for it not to be a general setting that takes effect on next reboot (and would be better set per-app as well).

Meh. When even the "lowest-hanging fruit"-type requests go nowhere, it's difficult to maintain any care or concern.

RPSchmidt
10-31-2018, 06:41 AM
There's no good reason for it not to be a general setting that takes effect on next reboot (and would be better set per-app as well).

Meh. When even the "lowest-hanging fruit"-type requests go nowhere, it's difficult to maintain any care or concern.

Less a low hanging fruit request than a low-priority request.

Considering all of the feature requests and fixes on this forum and any potential new features or improvements they may be working on now, I personally would prefer they spend zero precious development time on font support and focus on far more crucial items already identified.

jwiede
10-31-2018, 06:18 PM
Less a low hanging fruit request than a low-priority request.

Considering all of the feature requests and fixes on this forum and any potential new features or improvements they may be working on now, I personally would prefer they spend zero precious development time on font support and focus on far more crucial items already identified.

Right now, changing LW's display font is one of the only effective means for addressing LW's HiDPI legibility problems in Windows, even adjusting display scaling often creates more problems than it solves. The cmd-line-based approach for font control is fragile and unreliable. Being able to easily control and try out different display fonts (ideally with much better diagnostics about "draws exceeding bounds", selection / "font not found", etc.) is quite important to LW font control (itself, again, important for HiDPI-mode display users).

Just because a problem isn't bothering you does NOT mean it isn't a serious problem for others.

RPSchmidt
11-01-2018, 08:36 AM
Right now, changing LW's display font is one of the only effective means for addressing LW's HiDPI legibility problems in Windows, even adjusting display scaling often creates more problems than it solves. The cmd-line-based approach for font control is fragile and unreliable. Being able to easily control and try out different display fonts (ideally with much better diagnostics about "draws exceeding bounds", selection / "font not found", etc.) is quite important to LW font control (itself, again, important for HiDPI-mode display users).

The effective means for addressing HiDPI legibility issues is to rebuild the GUI.

Rebuilding the GUI would also address multiple issues simultaneously and in my opinion is a higher priority than simply coding a solution to the font issue.


Just because a problem isn't bothering you does NOT mean it isn't a serious problem for others.

Pretty sure I covered that when I said "I personally would prefer" but regardless, it really boils down to the number of overall complaints about the font issue versus the overall number of complaints about the lack of scalability of the entire GUI, the effort required for each, and the payoff for each.

If I can solve the font issue by building a new, scalable GUI that will also solve other visibility issues and ensure future scalability, that is the target I would be shooting for. The payoff is bigger in the long run.

pbaroque20
11-09-2018, 05:29 PM
This is a quick mockup I made in Photoshop. I like to work in full-screen and have everything context-menu based on mouse/hotkeyed, unless I absolutely need to access the toolbar for something more specific. The red areas are designated for possible additions to the main UI. I always thought the statistics border that comes with standard Windows looked out of place in a LW setting and adds pixels of clutter. Would be nice of an interactive OpenGL statistics table on the top right, and the top left basic information about the layer or even file. The top red square could be for quick access of layer management instead of F7 since it's right next to the layer select area. The bottom red bar could be used for other quick utilities like sketch color, or maybe even set all other layers in the background except the one selected. There so much space on the bottom I would think maybe there would be a way to add some convenient tools.

143334

Rayek
11-09-2018, 06:34 PM
This is a quick mockup I made in Photoshop.
143334

Your mockup reminds me a bit of this setup. Scene//mesh and Layer controls in the same spot, point/edge/polygon mode as well (although icons in this case), it displays the number of poygons (although in a different spot: right bottom), various often-used tools/modes in the bottom footer similar to yours. Viewport controls are also there, although catercorner to yours, but still same intent. Also that quick menu to select contextural actions. I turned off the viewport controls, and when active those are positioned in the top right corner, just like Lightwave's and your mockup. Colours are a different, but I just decided to go with a darker look (Modo).


Interesting you came up with a very similar viewport design/layout as the maximized viewport in Blender v2.8 Alpha.
http://i64.tinypic.com/sc4d3p.jpg

pbaroque20
11-09-2018, 08:56 PM
Lol I had no idea. I don't use Blender so I'm not familiar with its UI history. The OpenGL info was inspired by Maya but I don't see why LW could not make use of that to its benefit like a statistics info in the viewport. I don't think this approach is unrealistic for developers. Just those little additions would enhance the experience and feel comprehensive. Since most of the action is in the middle of the screen, putting stuff on the corners shouldn't be much of a hassle. When navigating with Alt+Drag it shouldn't conflict accidentally pressing the statistics corner. I think it'll work and it'll still be within a text-based UI. I certainly feel that LW, with it's original intent to be a speedy modeler, would be efficient in full-screen, so developers hopefully can keep a note on that as a design focus. Just my opinion :D:cool:

That Blender UI actually looks really nice btw.

shrox
11-09-2018, 09:17 PM
Where is the OP?

erikals
11-10-2018, 05:17 AM
the maximized viewport in Blender v2.8 Alpha.
no fan, the majority of the "often accessed" menus should be at the top, always, not the bottom, way more efficient, and definitely creates less stress on the wrist/hand. especially when using a Wacom.

does it look nice, yes, is it efficient, no.

prometheus
11-10-2018, 05:24 AM
This is a quick mockup I made in Photoshop. I like to work in full-screen and have everything context-menu based on mouse/hotkeyed, unless I absolutely need to access the toolbar for something more specific. The red areas are designated for possible additions to the main UI. I always thought the statistics border that comes with standard Windows looked out of place in a LW setting and adds pixels of clutter. Would be nice of an interactive OpenGL statistics table on the top right, and the top left basic information about the layer or even file. The top red square could be for quick access of layer management instead of F7 since it's right next to the layer select area. The bottom red bar could be used for other quick utilities like sketch color, or maybe even set all other layers in the background except the one selected. There so much space on the bottom I would think maybe there would be a way to add some convenient tools.

143334

I really donīt see anything new than a kind of HUD statistics info, and a for uneccesary distratction made by that orange highlight in 3 places..not of my liking.

- - - Updated - - -


Your mockup reminds me a bit of this setup. Scene//mesh and Layer controls in the same spot, point/edge/polygon mode as well (although icons in this case), it displays the number of poygons (although in a different spot: right bottom), various often-used tools/modes in the bottom footer similar to yours. Viewport controls are also there, although catercorner to yours, but still same intent. Also that quick menu to select contextural actions. I turned off the viewport controls, and when active those are positioned in the top right corner, just like Lightwave's and your mockup. Colours are a different, but I just decided to go with a darker look (Modo).


Interesting you came up with a very similar viewport design/layout as the maximized viewport in Blender v2.8 Alpha.
http://i64.tinypic.com/sc4d3p.jpg

I like blender UI more and more.

erikals
11-10-2018, 08:03 AM
I like blender UI more and more.
finally, it is moving more towards the general standard instead of the "do it different for the sake of difference"

pbaroque20
11-10-2018, 10:04 AM
I really donīt see anything new than a kind of HUD statistics info, and a for uneccesary distratction made by that orange highlight in 3 places..not of my liking.

I like blender UI more and more.

I could understand with your sentiment. The orange was just a personal cosmetic; that wasn't meant for anything official. It's hard because every one is used to this classic layout, so to go on the safe side, I was thinking either stick with the classic UI and enhance it in areas that are vacant, or do what Zbrush has, dockable buttons/menus.

Rayek
11-10-2018, 10:20 AM
no fan, the majority of the "often accessed" menus should be at the top, always, not the bottom, way more efficient, and definitely creates less stress on the wrist/hand. especially when using a Wacom.

does it look nice, yes, is it efficient, no.

Menus can be switched between header and footer. That's always been the case. I switched the menu area to the footer of the window for the sake of this GUI example.

The new GUI is Wacom friendlier now that on-screen viewport navigation are possible (which can be turned off). The size of those orbit controls are nice too for Wacom use, and of course the entire GUI seamlessly scales up and down.

http://i68.tinypic.com/73pedh.jpg

Rayek
11-10-2018, 10:22 AM
finally, it is moving more towards the general standard instead of the "do it different for the sake of difference"

Left click seems to be the standard now in V2.8! (but can still be set to right)

prometheus
11-10-2018, 10:58 AM
no fan, the majority of the "often accessed" menus should be at the top, always, not the bottom, way more efficient, and definitely creates less stress on the wrist/hand. especially when using a Wacom.

does it look nice, yes, is it efficient, no.

I suspect you should be able to right click on that bottom menu and flip to top, as usually?

hmm...that printscreen doesnīt look like my Eeeve 2.80 alpha 2, so what version may that be,

Edt...forgot to read the thread properly, Rayek already answered this about flipping to header or footer for the menus.

jwiede
11-10-2018, 04:56 PM
hmm...that printscreen doesnīt look like my Eeeve 2.80 alpha 2, so what version may that be

Yeah, I was wondering that as well, as it doesn't resemble my 2.80 either.

However, in fairness, as there's already multiple Blender threads elsewhere, perhaps we can keep this thread focused on LW GUI improvements, instead of Blender stuff?

gdkeast
12-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Of the many things I like about LW, one is that the buttons are clearly labeled. I think this feature is especially helpful for new or beginning students who are probably overwhelmed with the entire program to begin with.

This quote in Lightwave 3D v 10 by Ablan in 2011 is still apropos.

"Lightwave 10 is uncluttered yet very functional. Many programs fill up the screen with useless icons; thankfully, LightWave names buttons clearly. This enables you to focus on creative goals instead of having to figure out what a particular icon means." page 173

Hopefully, the new interface will allows users the option of toggling between the new interface and the classic or current interface.

Marander
12-24-2018, 03:31 AM
This quote in Lightwave 3D v 10 by Ablan in 2011 is still apropos.


It never was.

Dan seemed to have missed the point that in other applications, the user can switch between Icons / Text / Icons & Text with a simple right click in in the individual places of the application (or similar settings).

If I want I can create a LW style UI in another application, LW on the other hand has almost no customization options.

Maybe he was comparing LW to Truespace.

prometheus
12-24-2018, 06:29 AM
It never was.

Dan seemed to have missed the point that in other applications, the user can switch between Icons / Text / Icons & Text with a simple right click in in the individual places of the application (or similar settings).

If I want I can create a LW style UI in another application, LW on the other hand has almost no customization options.

Maybe he was comparing LW to Truespace.

If you can give me Lightwave UI and how the workflow goes when navigating and using layout as a movie stage, within blender...then I would thankfully recieve such a christmas present:D
Just a long as I can keep the UI color design and preferences that goes with blender.

Ztreem
12-24-2018, 07:37 AM
If you can give me Lightwave UI and how the workflow goes when navigating and using layout as a movie stage, within blender...then I would thankfully recieve such a christmas present:D
Just a long as I can keep the UI color design and preferences that goes with blender.

How is Layout more a movie stage than blender? What workflow is missing?

prometheus
12-25-2018, 12:13 PM
How is Layout more a movie stage than blender? What workflow is missing?

Acess to camera, lights, objects in a fixed placed, not in some Outliner which dynamicly changes if you add any items, or scroll through the menus.
Lightwave have these buttons fixed at the same place, you can never go wrong or go lost in finding it quickly.
In fact...I think this is what kind of makes Lightwave unique compared to other software..which mostly puts these elements in to outliners, or shader trees.

If we want a movie stage feel, lights cameras and actors / items are the most important stuff...not any carpenter tools in the scene, that statement suggest that most other software is constructed as 3d creation tools, not on focus on a film making process...or should I just say, make the scene layout feel like a movie stage.

The same goes for the navigation controls, as opposed to the transform scroll tab in blender, which changes dynamicly depending on if you change other parameters..which undoubtly will change the place in the scroll menu where your transforms settings are...the Lightwave navigation controls are fixed always at one place at the bottome left corner, you do not have to worry about scrolling any transform tab and go through the hoops to locate it, they are always where you expect them to be.

Then we have the window setup, I prefer having a window setup that I can change viewport size by clicking on it and resize them, deciding which viewport I want bigger or other smaller with just dragging them, by default you can not do that in blender, they are fixed, you need to drag out windows manually and set them up..preferably save to some preference state for it to be there all the time.

Also, each viewport in blender can not be changed by a selectable viewport list unlike lightwave, you need to be aware of the the shortcut, or go in to view and within a much larger list find the viewport you want, thatīs more clicks and messing than in Lightwave.
Blender needs..click on desired viewport, then go to view/viewpoint/ left etc..

In Lightwave you just go to the desired viewports dropdown list and select left or right or whatever, itīs faster and less convoluted workflow I think, If you use blender a lot with shortcuts, the experience may be something else though..but I donīt like it in blender when it comes to viewports.

I also have dislikes about how you need to seet viewport wireframe settings per object (though in some cases that may be prefered) should be an option though...I prefer to set viewport shading options within the viewport mostly.

Thatīs some of it..not all of it.

I also find camera targeting much easier and natural to set up in Lightwave..as opposed to how it works in blender with adding constraints..and actually making sure coordinates is set up correctly for it to behave nicely, in lightwave I just select my added camera target and it works from scratch, which I feel it doesnīt do in blender.

Rayek
12-25-2018, 06:22 PM
@prometheus Do many people actually still use the standard cameras in 3d software for complex shots? For any more involved shot I use either my own camera rigs, or use a built-in one, like the dolly camera rig in Blender. Even when I still worked in Lightwave, I'd have my own camera rigs to get a better feel to the shots. Without a proper camera rig it just feels too uncontrollable (no matter the software), and it is also harder to maintain that "real" physical camera look. Nowadays I even use them for simplistic shots (like the one in the example below).

Here's an example for Lightwave: http://artstorm.net/journal/2011/10/camera-rig-lightwave-3d/

Have to say, though, I do prefer Lightwave's nice camera viewport model over most other 3d software. As for the other stuff? It's personal, I guess. Whether C4D, Lightwave, Blender, Max, Modo (the ones I have experience with),... they all have their pros and cons in terms of camera/movie stage workflow. I suppose it makes sense for Layout to be more "stage" oriented, since it's a split app. More of a happy legacy coincidence thing than a conscious design choice at this point, I think.

Below an example of a simple dolly rig. I like having more rigid control over my cameras/shots.

And Happy Holidays everyone! :-)

http://www.upl.co/uploads/dollyrog1545786885.jpg