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Topster-71
09-11-2018, 03:16 PM
Making Planets just got interesting! Take a look at Video Copilot's new plugin.

It's free too.

https://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2018/09/new-plug-in-trailer-orb/

So how can we do this in Lightwave. I've done the Earth in Lightwave 2018 and it's not as good as being rendered in 2015. We need plugins like this. That make planets easy.

I moved away from After Effect and now use Fusion Studio. So we need a After Effect used to take this plugin for a test drive and review it.

Ma3rk
09-11-2018, 03:43 PM
Be glad too... if it's CS6 compatible. Many of Andrew's recent creations haven't been.

Topster-71
09-12-2018, 02:25 AM
Cool, we'll look forward to hearing all about it and whats possible. If its compatible with CS6.

prometheus
09-12-2018, 04:13 AM
Making Planets just got interesting! Take a look at Video Copilot's new plugin.

It's free too.

https://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2018/09/new-plug-in-trailer-orb/

So how can we do this in Lightwave. I've done the Earth in Lightwave 2018 and it's not as good as being rendered in 2015. We need plugins like this. That make planets easy.

I moved away from After Effect and now use Fusion Studio. So we need a After Effect used to take this plugin for a test drive and review it.

I donīt see why you shouldnīt be able to get equal or even better planets in 2018 than 2015, I think your results may be a lack of understanding the surfacing in 2018 or not using it right.
I do however think that you may be able to get away with faster renders for planets in 2015 than in 2018.

with 2018 you can also try the new primitive types, so you do not need to subpatch a planet.

lardbros
09-12-2018, 06:03 AM
Making Planets just got interesting! Take a look at Video Copilot's new plugin.

It's free too.

https://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2018/09/new-plug-in-trailer-orb/

So how can we do this in Lightwave. I've done the Earth in Lightwave 2018 and it's not as good as being rendered in 2015. We need plugins like this. That make planets easy.

I moved away from After Effect and now use Fusion Studio. So we need a After Effect used to take this plugin for a test drive and review it.



Was going to ask the same thing Prometheus asked.

What about 2018 makes the earth renderings look worse than 2015??

Did you see this video by one of the devs? Creating the Earth without any geometry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLohazy4A-Q

You can do a realistic atmosphere (not very easily done in 2015), you can do a volumetric cloud layer (also not very easily done in 2015).

Worth checking out the video and following along. The use of primitives makes it easier to assemble, but it will render slower than using standard geometry.

Marander
09-12-2018, 09:12 AM
Was going to ask the same thing Prometheus asked.

What about 2018 makes the earth renderings look worse than 2015??

Did you see this video by one of the devs? Creating the Earth without any geometry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLohazy4A-Q

You can do a realistic atmosphere (not very easily done in 2015), you can do a volumetric cloud layer (also not very easily done in 2015).

Worth checking out the video and following along. The use of primitives makes it easier to assemble, but it will render slower than using standard geometry.

I don't see any appealing result in that tutorial.

I'm not saying it's not possible in LW, but what was shown doesn't come anywhere close to what Orb seems to be able to do.

Not using AE (not fund of subscription), so I won't have access to it. However Orb looks great to me.

By using LW + TFD or C4D + X-Particles/Thinking Particles/TFD/Krakatoa, similar results should be possible. It should be more customizable than using an AE plugin and is well integrated within the 3D scene. Problem is with LW and TFD is that it doesn't work with the new 2018 volumetrics and it doesn't support particle advection. LW2018 volumetrics with perlin noise texture might also achieve nice results by itself but lacks control and UI representation.

prometheus
09-12-2018, 12:09 PM
I don't see any appealing result in that tutorial.

I'm not saying it's not possible in LW, but what was shown doesn't come anywhere close to what Orb seems to be able to do.

Not using AE (not fund of subscription), so I won't have access to it. However Orb looks great to me.

By using LW + TFD or C4D + X-Particles/Thinking Particles/TFD/Krakatoa, similar results should be possible. It should be more customizable than using an AE plugin and is well integrated within the 3D scene. Problem is with LW and TFD is that it doesn't work with the new 2018 volumetrics and it doesn't support particle advection. LW2018 volumetrics with perlin noise texture might also achieve nice results by itself but lacks control and UI representation.

The problem here is that Anti is just showing a basic setup..and hasnīt a real complete vid with atmosphere..it can most certainly be pushed much more, but the thing is...it takes time and is most likely far more complex,
the new volumetrics wasnīt designed with creating planets Specificly in mind, on contrary to this after effects plugin, if you would want anything that is aimed for this, just go back and invest in After effects again, it will not be as easy in lightwave..but end result may come close if you spend many many hours ...loads of hours in comparison to After effects and this new plugin, I say this without actually knowing how easy it will be....so this is a guess, but I do not think it will be a too far away guess.

What one also should consider, Lightwave 2018 primitives are slow to render if you want infinite detail as After effects promise, you have to employ displacement on Lightwave primitives...and in comparison to Antiīs vid...that would significantly increase rendertime, and as this after effects plugin is GPU optimized...After Effects would win the performance and also ease of use race between doing it in Lightwave or in After Affects, Itīs a special tool.
So when Lightwave Gets GPU rendering for this, or simply use octane..which is additional cost, that may boost some stuff upp, but there are probably loads more that simply is specially designed in After Effects for a task like this, so is it worth it to tweak and tweak Lightwave, or invest in after effects withouth this plugin costing anything?


Old 2015 sample, no geometry ...Old hypervoxels system, including cloud layers..though I really didnīt do any surfacing on this planet, nor a proper atmosphere around it.
Itīs a water planet (without specularity) and without any land, so make sure to bring a boat.

https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137597&d=1502043568

prometheus
09-12-2018, 12:46 PM
By using LW + TFD or C4D + X-Particles/Thinking Particles/TFD/Krakatoa, similar results should be possible. It should be more customizable than using an AE plugin and is well integrated within the 3D scene. Problem is with LW and TFD is that it doesn't work with the new 2018 volumetrics and it doesn't support particle advection. LW2018 volumetrics with perlin noise texture might also achieve nice results by itself but lacks control and UI representation.

I do not follow you about X- particles/ thinking particles or fluids at all here? and krakatoa...where would that work within the planet setup? or do you mean the space environment around it?

lardbros
09-12-2018, 01:08 PM
Again, agree with Prom here.

Antti's setup was just a quick video showcasing the primitives and volumes in 2018. If you do your own, you can get awesome results in 2018.

What you're not seeing on the ORB video is how long it takes them, the post processing done in AE afterwards, and how easy it is to achieve it.

Also... I really very much doubt many VFX studios would use a fluid sim for a planet sized object.
Why would you need advection on particles for a planet too?
Kind of irrelevant in terms of the subject at hand.

Ztreem
09-12-2018, 02:09 PM
I would be very surprised if the orb plugin do not render in almost realtime as most other video copilot plugins. So even if you could do it in LW it would be cumbersome and slow in comparison.

prometheus
09-12-2018, 02:27 PM
I would be very surprised if the orb plugin do not render in almost realtime as most other video copilot plugins. So even if you could do it in LW it would be cumbersome and slow in comparison.

I donīt believe any cloud layer in after effects ...practices any true volumetric ray marching, wich is quite the opposite to what lightwave does if you try and implement volumetric clouds..and ergo, quite a lot slower.
I suspect it is somekind of hack trick to get a sense of depth in cloud layers, but I know too little about that plugin...and if such, you would have to treat lightwave with hacks as well, and not use volumetrics.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjVUQrh73Q

prometheus
09-12-2018, 02:32 PM
Again, agree with Prom here.

Antti's setup was just a quick video showcasing the primitives and volumes in 2018. If you do your own, you can get awesome results in 2018.

What you're not seeing on the ORB video is how long it takes them, the post processing done in AE afterwards, and how easy it is to achieve it.

Also... I really very much doubt many VFX studios would use a fluid sim for a planet sized object.
Why would you need advection on particles for a planet too?
Kind of irrelevant in terms of the subject at hand.

Yes...and fluid sims, well not in direct scene context I would think be any practical, doing fluid sims in flat land, then render out image sequence and then mapping that for density in aa volumetric cloud layer would however be one effect you could try, like a huge meteor hitting earth and pushing fluids, when mapped to a planetary cloud layer, that could be looking quite cool.

Particle advection...no idea what marander ment about that for the case in hand, itīs a limitation of tFD though.

Ztreem
09-12-2018, 03:21 PM
I donīt believe any cloud layer in after effects ...practices any true volumetric ray marching, wich is quite the opposite to what lightwave does if you try and implement volumetric clouds..and ergo, quite a lot slower.
I suspect it is somekind of hack trick to get a sense of depth in cloud layers, but I know too little about that plugin...and if such, you would have to treat lightwave with hacks as well, and not use volumetrics.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjVUQrh73Q

I don’t think orb will use real volumetrics or raytracing, it’s AE so more like game engine kind of stuff combined with 2D comps. Look at element 3D for AE to get the wibe. I think Orb is similar to element 3D but limited to spheres... sure you can use whatever tricks you can come up with in Lightwave it still will be slower and more cumbersome to setup for sure.

Topster-71
09-13-2018, 03:41 AM
OK, just catching up on people replys.

1st I'm still getting my head round nodes, so I'm no pro yet. When I started out, I Google all the free tuts I could find and tried them out. Antt's Video looks promising but Lightwave's Volumetrics soon slowed my machine down to the point of being painfully slow and experimenting was a drag. LW2018 does a good Earth but I can't get the atmosphere the same as LW2015 - I've included a few screen Grab to illustrate my problem. In LW2018 I can't get the clouds visible though the atmosphere on the Horizon. I idea was to perfect the Earth and the transform the Technics to other planet designs.

142801
This Grab shows the 2018 node for the Atmosphere

142802
The 2015 version does not use nodes, just standard materials.

Here are some rim/horizon shot shots
142803
142804

And the classic shot so far.
142805
142806

Marander
09-13-2018, 06:22 AM
Yes...and fluid sims, well not in direct scene context I would think be any practical, doing fluid sims in flat land, then render out image sequence and then mapping that for density in aa volumetric cloud layer would however be one effect you could try, like a huge meteor hitting earth and pushing fluids, when mapped to a planetary cloud layer, that could be looking quite cool.

Particle advection...no idea what marander ment about that for the case in hand, itīs a limitation of tFD though.

I would try to do the nice looking fog / turbulences around the planets seen from Orb with a fluid system.

But for doing this in LW would require that the new 2018 volumetrics and TFD work together which don't. And TFD itself is quite limited what can be done with it, there in not much artistic control over the particles. With limited possibilities maybe just use the 2018 volumetrics with an animated noise (maybe one primitive sphere for the planet and another one for the volume).

About the Particle Advection, yes you're right, not required in this scenario but could be used for additional effects (for example for an alien planet glimmering particles around those turbulences or secondary spawned particles etc.).

About Orb - I wouldn't be surprised if it runs very fast and as someone mentioned, using GPU enabled game technology.

prometheus
09-13-2018, 11:13 AM
I would try to do the nice looking fog / turbulences around the planets seen from Orb with a fluid system.

But for doing this in LW would require that the new 2018 volumetrics and TFD work together which don't. And TFD itself is quite limited what can be done with it, there in not much artistic control over the particles. With limited possibilities maybe just use the 2018 volumetrics with an animated noise (maybe one primitive sphere for the planet and another one for the volume).

About the Particle Advection, yes you're right, not required in this scenario but could be used for additional effects (for example for an alien planet glimmering particles around those turbulences or secondary spawned particles etc.).

About Orb - I wouldn't be surprised if it runs very fast and as someone mentioned, using GPU enabled game technology.

Well..I think what we see in the making planets plugin trailer, may use some techniques based on elements and something like this..(5:31 in the clip) using displaced geoemetry and simply mapping on some nice pre-rendered fractal textures, Unless you are in a need of some dynamic interaction in a background nebula or gas field around a planet..then it would be overdoing it with fluids I think, you can use fractal textures, or painted stuff, or use fractal software to render out some nice stuff and mapp it on to displaced geometry.
Then again, if you look at the orrary effect in Prometheus, that holographic nebula effect was made with fluids.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYzGhNkNBWs

As for TFD, well...I would rather save that money and just do a simulation in other software..like blender and import to openVDB...that is if I had upgraded to Lightwave 2018, otherwise I would look in to After effects or do it with the tools in Lightwave 2015.3 ..or simply go at it with fluids in blender alone and planet renders there as well, I still have to evaluate space scenery withing blender, currently I am focusing on fracture stuff and the fluid fire and smoke and also starting more to learn particles.

For lightwave 2015.3, there is still a lot that can be done with textured environment, sprite voxels for gas, and volumetric lights with sprites, for Lightwave 2018 the volumetric lights with sprites is gone, and you have to use full volumetric mode, a bit slower..a bit harder to setup.

feathering clouds in Lightwave 2018 can easy be tweaked to serve as nebula or gas stuff nearby a planet, if you change scattering color with gradients etc..
https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=142308&d=1532022054



volumetric Lights in Lightwave 2015 with textures was quite nice as well for gas stuff...
https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=140078&d=1518462948

peebeearr
09-13-2018, 11:38 AM
I did a moon shot to test the new parametric shapes.... Looks VERY awesome!

Here is the complete picture:
142808
This shot is made of a high resolution image of the moon as a elevation map.

Here are some closeups...
142809

142810
The close ups are actualy screenshots of 1-1 pixel of the original image.

All true 3d elevation... finally I did my moon shot!

prometheus
09-13-2018, 11:50 AM
I did a moon shot to test the new parametric shapes.... Looks VERY awesome!

Here is the complete picture:
142808
This shot is made of a high resolution image of the moon as a elevation map.

Here are some closeups...
142809

142810
The close ups are actualy screenshots of 1-1 pixel of the original image.

All true 3d elevation... finally I did my moon shot!

Looking great, but you are in the wrong thread..You need a mooner thread, this is planets :)

jbrookes
09-13-2018, 01:34 PM
Wow. Those moon renders look great. What app/version was used for those?

As for LightWave being able to create planets as good or better than Orb -- I have no doubt in my mind that LW can. Maybe slower than Orb, but likely a greater degree of control and precision. There's a very long history of making planets in LW3D.

prometheus
09-13-2018, 01:41 PM
Wow. Those moon renders look great. What app/version was used for those?

As for LightWave being able to create planets as good or better than Orb -- I have no doubt in my mind that LW can. Maybe slower than Orb, but likely a greater degree of control and precision. There's a very long history of making planets in LW3D.

Infinite displacement detail wasnīt possible before 2018 really, unless using hypervoxels surface mode, but that wasnīt really near the capacity of doing proper detailed displacement the way 2018 does, but mind you ...the primitives is slow with displacement, and if it wasnīt for this...After effects would probably be better.
Long History of making planets in Lightwave? ..well I donīt think it keeps up with the new stuff that after effects does though.

erikals
09-13-2018, 08:10 PM
https://youtu.be/xJ1FNfk7kSE

i think that should be quite doable in LightWave
for starters, check the Volumetric Earth sample scene in 2018
you'd need some post process video filters though

that said, certainly an awesome AE plugin.

peebeearr
09-13-2018, 08:23 PM
Wow. Those moon renders look great. What app/version was used for those?

As for LightWave being able to create planets as good or better than Orb -- I have no doubt in my mind that LW can. Maybe slower than Orb, but likely a greater degree of control and precision. There's a very long history of making planets in LW3D.

I believe I made this in LW2018.05... but it wouldn't really matter. It's just a parametric shape with a high res elevation map and a colour map slapped onto it.


Infinite displacement detail wasnīt possible before 2018 really, unless using hypervoxels surface mode, but that wasnīt really near the capacity of doing proper detailed displacement the way 2018 does, but mind you ...the primitives is slow with displacement, and if it wasnīt for this...After effects would probably be better.
Long History of making planets in Lightwave? ..well I donīt think it keeps up with the new stuff that after effects does though.

I have noticed that even with the parametric shapes, detail is not infinite... but maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Rendering was not too bad either as I recall... I'll see if I can drag up the stats later if anyone is interested. I do know that this scene did take up most of my 64GB of RAM. But that's mainly because of the huge 16-bit elevation map of the moon.

Long story short, I definitely think LW can do this kind of thing. The trick of creating convincing planets (or moons... some moons have atmosphere as well you know ;-) ) is having good (procedural) textures that look conving. You want LOTS of detail, have your specular just right and of course a 3D atmosphere.

All this is now readily available in LW. We have awesome volumetrics: Shapes as well as lights to create those awesome-smokey-looking-absolutely-not-realistic-but-great-to-look-at-planet-space shots :-)

Gungho3D
09-13-2018, 09:32 PM
I did a moon shot to test the new parametric shapes.... Looks VERY awesome!

Here is the complete picture:
142808
This shot is made of a high resolution image of the moon as a elevation map.

Here are some closeups...
142809

142810
The close ups are actualy screenshots of 1-1 pixel of the original image.

All true 3d elevation... finally I did my moon shot!

Impressive. Very impressive! Every bit of it would have fooled me regards realism, about the only thing being that film response sometimes adds a tiny glow effect to the end result.

Love it!

prometheus
09-14-2018, 01:52 AM
I believe I made this in LW2018.05... but it wouldn't really matter. It's just a parametric shape with a high res elevation map and a colour map slapped onto it.



I have noticed that even with the parametric shapes, detail is not infinite... but maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Rendering was not too bad either as I recall... I'll see if I can drag up the stats later if anyone is interested. I do know that this scene did take up most of my 64GB of RAM. But that's mainly because of the huge 16-bit elevation map of the moon.

Long story short, I definitely think LW can do this kind of thing. The trick of creating convincing planets (or moons... some moons have atmosphere as well you know ;-) ) is having good (procedural) textures that look conving. You want LOTS of detail, have your specular just right and of course a 3D atmosphere.

All this is now readily available in LW. We have awesome volumetrics: Shapes as well as lights to create those awesome-smokey-looking-absolutely-not-realistic-but-great-to-look-at-planet-space shots :-)

You are using image maps in this case..ergo you can not have infinite detail..
Procedural texture is needed...and the perception of infinite detail may depend on how much small detail you have set in there...but otherwise procedurals are not limited in infinite detail.

dlvphoto
09-19-2018, 12:00 AM
This video gives the rundown on how the plugin works, and also gives some really good hints on how you might achieve similar looks in Lightwave if you know what how to adapt the settings in the plugin to lighwave's surface settings. Intersting stuff and in no way is it anything Lighwave can't do just as easily or even easier. The only thing it does better is that it's integrated right into the AE timeline as just another FX plugin along side everything else. Workflow is what it has over Lightwave, but that's about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT12Q9O-Q30

In short, it lets you map images onto spheres, light them, and render them in real time inside AE with a set of texture controls close to that of any PBR renderer. Some of the tools are neat and well laid out, but it's still not anything unique to Orb. The surface textures and details still have to come from 2D textures that you provide from somewhere else. Nothing fancy here.

Ztreem
09-19-2018, 12:37 AM
Workflow is what it has over Lightwave, but that's about it.


Yes and that is the most important thing. Workflow is what make me move away from LW after 20+ years.

prometheus
09-19-2018, 01:18 AM
Yes and that is the most important thing. Workflow is what make me move away from LW after 20+ years.

Some of that applies to me as well...in more specific terms the changes in LW 2018.

Thanks for the link dlvphoto:thumbsup:

tischbein3
09-19-2018, 01:31 AM
btw.. from my initial tests orb seems to work in 5.5 also...

making such earths in lw is doable, although having 2d processing capabillities at
hand does have its advantages..good to have both at hand

Ma3rk
09-20-2018, 12:45 AM
btw.. from my initial tests orb seems to work in 5.5 also...

making such earths in lw is doable, although having 2d processing capabillities at
hand does have its advantages..good to have both at hand

Good to see. Kinda figured it had to be in order to be an Element 3D add on. Anyway I just snagged it and will play some this weekend. I've just bare minimum on video card... at least at present.

Marander
09-20-2018, 03:56 AM
OK so after watching the Orb tutorial I must say there's not much of the magic left from the teaser video (which is very well done).

Basically just creating several spheres and manually texturing them with image maps, using PBR texturing techniques like fresnel, bump etc.

It seems not to do anything more than can be done with most 3D applications where there's more versatility.

lardbros
09-20-2018, 05:02 AM
OK so after watching the Orb tutorial I must say there's not much of the magic left from the teaser video (which is very well done).

Basically just creating several spheres and manually texturing them with image maps, using PBR texturing techniques like fresnel, bump etc.

It seems not to do anything more than can be done with most 3D applications where there's more versatility.

I did wonder that...

A good marketing video will sell tonnes of seats (despite this one being free). Autodesk and C4d use similar techniques and it never fails to get users interested.

Usually, the stuff they market doesn't quite work as well or swiftly as they may show/describe in their videos. But hey, that's marketing... That is a complete unknown at Newtek :)

squarewulf
09-20-2018, 10:48 AM
It seems not to do anything more than can be done with most 3D applications where there's more versatility.


It does seem to make it easier to add night lights and atmosphere depending on time of day though.

sadkkf
09-21-2018, 06:38 AM
In case anyone missed it, here's a full length tutorial for Orb:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT12Q9O-Q30

prometheus
09-21-2018, 12:29 PM
In case anyone missed it, here's a full length tutorial for Orb:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT12Q9O-Q30

Well..yes, setting it up in orb seems like more work than I initially thought it would take, fooled by the trailer..questionable wouldnīt it be just as well better to be doing it in Lightwave or blender for that matter.
If after effects had pre-made presets of procedural cloud layers...specificly worked out to give decent cloud layers for a starter, including procedural land presets...that would be something.

Rendering glow and such stuff would be sweeter in after effects though, since Lightwave doesīt do that in VPR for tweaking feedback, I had wished for that to happen with 2018 to make lw competitional in such area.
With blender EEVEE that should be doable though, in realtime.

jbrookes
09-27-2018, 03:58 AM
Here's some reference material in case anyone's interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiGeqsGjhoY

Ma3rk
04-02-2019, 04:16 PM
Meanwhile, ...

Finally got my new Win10 system up & running (AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX, 64Gb memory, dual NVIDIA Quadro RTX 4000 8GB cards) & pretty much everything migrated over from Win7. Finally got around to seeing what Orb can do on this beast a few days ago and ... it STILL won't work!!! Went to VCP's site & checked the compat list and guess what? The NVIDIA Quadro RTX 5000's are on it but not the 4000's. Wow. Pretty damn finicky for a "free" plug-in. Other posts from RTX owners from months back and no replies. But, at least I got the textures to use.

So, that gets us back to the original topic. Found some new tut's using the procedurals n LW 2018-19 so will go over those, but just wondering if anyone has dabbled with them much yet?