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RPSchmidt
08-31-2018, 08:29 AM
I'm sure this isn't a new topic by any stretch of the imagination, but I couldn't find anything directly related to it posted up.

I am trying to determine whether to invest in Substance Painter or 3d Coat. Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to test either of these applications.

My current home development system is ancient and decrepit and although I have purchased all of the parts for my new system, I am building a custom case and that work has taken a backseat to real life for the time being.

So I thought I would ask if anyone has tested / used both of these products and has recommendations based on their experiences?

Right now, the main discriminator for me is price; Substance is nearly twice as much as 3d Coat for a floating license, so that is a major consideration although if Substance Painter just really exceeds 3d Coat in every area, that would definitely be a factor in the decision.

Any advice or recommendations are appreciated!

CaptainMarlowe
08-31-2018, 08:59 AM
Substance indie permanent licence is only 149$, do you absolutely need the floating one, which is for people making more than 100k $ revenue from substance per year ?
As for your question, I use both programs, but for texturing, I almost exclusively substance painter now, which is so intuitive, easy and efficient. 3D-coat as a lot of other abilities, especially with sculpting, retopo and UV-ing. So it's more versatile. But in the are of texturing alone, I prefer substance painter especially with the last update. Most of the time, my workflow is model in lightwave, UV in 3D coat, texturing in substance painter and back to LW for rendering.

RPSchmidt
08-31-2018, 09:18 AM
Substance indie permanent licence is only 149$, do you absolutely need the floating one, which is for people making more than 100k $ revenue from substance per year ?
As for your question, I use both programs, but for texturing, I almost exclusively substance painter now, which is so intuitive, easy and efficient. 3D-coat as a lot of other abilities, especially with sculpting, retopo and UV-ing. So it's more versatile. But in the are of texturing alone, I prefer substance painter especially with the last update. Most of the time, my workflow is model in lightwave, UV in 3D coat, texturing in substance painter and back to LW for rendering.

Thanks for sharing your workflow and the information!

If my current workflow remains as steady as it has for the last eight years or so and I am using Substance to replace my current method of UV / texturing (which is using Lightwave's native tools to produce the UV and texturing in Photoshop) then I'm kind of stuck with the floating perpetual license if I want to keep things on the up and up.

ConjureBunny
08-31-2018, 03:02 PM
Substance painter is just so easy to use. That workflow is top notch. Drop in model, click a few buttons, dump out high quality textures with AO and smart materials... it's just beautiful.

-Chilton

raymondtrace
08-31-2018, 03:47 PM
...Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to test either of these applications...

Make the opportunity.

I've had 3D-Coat for a while and it behaves well, even on older hardware. I've been thinking about adding Substance Painter to the toolbox and finally installed the trial today. $149 is a no-brainer purchase. However, on one of the systems I use (stuck with) Substance Painter is terribly slow because of my ancient video card. 3D-Coat seems to be more forgiving with various hardware. That's why a test of each program on your own hardware is better than somebody's opinion.

Ma3rk
08-31-2018, 07:04 PM
A bit of a dilema. I've had 3DC for awhile & mainly got it for UV work. There's a bit of a learning curve but plenty of vids to study & a very active forum.

I've not used Substance Painter, but it looks tempting. I might pick it up anyway since, as CaptainMarlowe suggests, that's nearly a no brainer. But from what I could tell, Substance Painter doesn't have any tools for UV creation, so that might affect your decision.

And while 3DC is quite good at that, there's a new player in town that kinda runs circles around it frankly. And that's RizomUV.
https://www.rizom-lab.com/products/rizomuv-vs/

But Rizom doesn't have any painting tools, so either way you'd need to mate it with something that can. You can do everthing in 3DC of course (and then some, it almost rivals Zbrush), but RizomUV and Substance Painter might not be a bad combo.

hrgiger
09-01-2018, 01:34 AM
Substance Painter.

erikals
09-01-2018, 03:46 AM
Google results >
https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+coat+vs+substance+painter&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab

anyone knows French?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6m0ZglAok0

TheLexx
09-01-2018, 05:11 AM
If it comes down to Substance Painter and a "UV dilemma", there is also Headus UVLayout (https://www.uvlayout.com/) which probably deserves equal consideration or comparison with the RizomUV mentioned by Ma3rk. Regarding learning curve, Udemy have Substance courses (https://www.udemy.com/courses/search/?src=ukw&q=%22substance%20painter%22&sort=highest-rated&p=1&lang=en) and are nearly always having a sale, so don't pay more than $9.99 for one (offers 30 day money back). Also, I believe Substance have had some interface changes so there will always be some variation matching a tutorial to the latest version, and allowing for the Maya or Unity bits of the course. Oliver has a Substance reader (https://vimeo.com/264715230) for Lightwave.

RPSchmidt
09-01-2018, 12:07 PM
Make the opportunity.

I've had 3D-Coat for a while and it behaves well, even on older hardware. I've been thinking about adding Substance Painter to the toolbox and finally installed the trial today. $149 is a no-brainer purchase. However, on one of the systems I use (stuck with) Substance Painter is terribly slow because of my ancient video card. 3D-Coat seems to be more forgiving with various hardware. That's why a test of each program on your own hardware is better than somebody's opinion.

As I pointed out earlier, the indie purchase for Substance isn't an option for me at this point.

I definitely agree that testing the software is a best practice, although on my new system I'm not too worried about performance (twin 1080ti cards and Ryzen Threadripper 1950x). I also think that there is always important information to be gained from people who have been using the software much longer than I have.



A bit of a dilema. I've had 3DC for awhile & mainly got it for UV work. There's a bit of a learning curve but plenty of vids to study & a very active forum.

I've not used Substance Painter, but it looks tempting. I might pick it up anyway since, as CaptainMarlowe suggests, that's nearly a no brainer. But from what I could tell, Substance Painter doesn't have any tools for UV creation, so that might affect your decision.

And while 3DC is quite good at that, there's a new player in town that kinda runs circles around it frankly. And that's RizomUV.
https://www.rizom-lab.com/products/rizomuv-vs/

But Rizom doesn't have any painting tools, so either way you'd need to mate it with something that can. You can do everthing in 3DC of course (and then some, it almost rivals Zbrush), but RizomUV and Substance Painter might not be a bad combo.

I considered Rizom, but I am not wild about their rental strategy. I would rather make a purchase and work with what I have than end up with software that stops working if, for whatever reason, I don't make a subscription payment that month.


If it comes down to Substance Painter and a "UV dilemma", there is also Headus UVLayout (https://www.uvlayout.com/) which probably deserves equal consideration or comparison with the RizomUV mentioned by Ma3rk. Regarding learning curve, Udemy have Substance courses (https://www.udemy.com/courses/search/?src=ukw&q=%22substance%20painter%22&sort=highest-rated&p=1&lang=en) and are nearly always having a sale, so don't pay more than $9.99 for one (offers 30 day money back). Also, I believe Substance have had some interface changes so there will always be some variation matching a tutorial to the latest version, and allowing for the Maya or Unity bits of the course. Oliver has a Substance reader (https://vimeo.com/264715230) for Lightwave.

Allegorithmic does have the Substance Academy videos, and I also have Safari and Lynda as options for learning.

3d Coat also has a series of tutorial videos.

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. I'm still on the fence, but it has given me a lot to consider.

jaf
09-01-2018, 12:54 PM
"I considered Rizom, but I am not wild about their rental strategy. I would rather make a purchase and work with what I have than end up with software that stops working if, for whatever reason, I don't make a subscription payment that month."

I believe they have a perpetual license @ $149. Read the wording on their web site carefully, but I believe it means you pay $149 and after the 12 months you then you're version freezes (no more version upgrades) unless you go monthly again.

Ma3rk
09-01-2018, 01:02 PM
If it comes down to Substance Painter and a "UV dilemma", there is also Headus UVLayout (https://www.uvlayout.com/) which probably deserves equal consideration or comparison with the RizomUV mentioned by Ma3rk. Regarding learning curve, Udemy have Substance courses (https://www.udemy.com/courses/search/?src=ukw&q=%22substance%20painter%22&sort=highest-rated&p=1&lang=en) and are nearly always having a sale, so don't pay more than $9.99 for one (offers 30 day money back). Also, I believe Substance have had some interface changes so there will always be some variation matching a tutorial to the latest version, and allowing for the Maya or Unity bits of the course. Oliver has a Substance reader (https://vimeo.com/264715230) for Lightwave.

I got UVLayout some years ago & while quite capable in some aspects, it's not even in the same league for ease of use, etc. as Rizom, particularly since they're in a similar cost range.

Oliver also has bridges now for Layout, Modeler & RizomUV I guess it's fair to mention.

And RPSchmidt, I'm 100% in agreement with you on rental or subscription schemes so won't go any farther with that. I'm also planning to go the ThreadRipper route in a few months, after nVidia comes out with their newest. Should drop the prices & availabilty for the current hotest.

gar26lw
09-01-2018, 08:40 PM
i have both. I'd get substance.

erikals
09-02-2018, 03:39 AM
for those who already have 3DCoat, in what areas does Substance Painter excel ?


And while 3DC is quite good at that, there's a new player in town that kinda runs circles around it frankly. And that's RizomUV.
https://www.rizom-lab.com/products/rizomuv-vs/
a must-have i'd say. Fantastic!  :king:  the time saved UVing with that app is Applaudable   https://i.imgur.com/w7295Cw.gif

TheLexx
09-02-2018, 06:48 AM
Could anyone please clear up the who's who or relationship between RizomUV and Unfold3D (http://www.polygonal-design.fr/e_unfold/index.php) ?

:)

kyleprometheus
09-02-2018, 07:28 AM
RP Schmidt, thank you for your advice on the other thread. :)

I see that getting a streamlined pipeline for eg. Model, UV, Paint UVs and back to Modelling app to render seems like the holy grail.

Substance Painter. It looks very professional. Compared to where textures where back in 1997...it looks stunning. (I used to be plodding along with Bryce, Poser and Raydream Studio on a Power Mac...and had to buy a lot of texture collections to get me up and running.) Substance looks like a texture specialist app? It looks high end for gaming studios or anyone who wants top end results. Is it order of magnitude 'modern' procedural texture generator meets Photoshop layers and Painting in 3D? Looks like a steal for the price?

I'm downloading the demo of it now. (1.69 gig download!) Looks very powerful and high end, gives finesse results. But will it look a bit 'generic' with a less natural painterly feel?

I do have Z-Brush 2018. (They had a great sale on...and I got the PC cross version as well for the same sale price. Too good to pass up on.) I'm still learning that and Lightwave 3D. Doesn't Z-Brush do UV Unwrap well? ...and it has painterly brushes that you can brush on the model in 3D? But the new price (after the sale...) is quite the investment. But I've done some 3D painting in Z-Brush. Seems quality natural media tools...and I love how you can paint over 'seams.' (I did the 'Shark Boy' tutorial on Pixelogic's site.)

3D Coat. Is there a point to having this if you have Z-Brush? Looks a quality app' though. (Are they on a par? Or 3D Coat just slightly behind? I haven't used 3D Coat, I've got it all on learning Z-Brush which is powerful but idiosyncratic. But aren't all 3D apps more challenging to learn? Perhaps some are more straightforward than others..?) I've decided because of this thread to download it myself and see. It's intuitive qualities have been lauded so it may well be worth a try...and if a sale for it comes up, I may 'jump' on it.

There are numerous UV Apps. The RizonUV one looks very, very powerful. I can see how someone might go for eg. 3D Coat (painterly 3D?) and RizonUV and still be cheaper than Z-Brush...and even get Lightwave 3D 2018 (upgrade/sale) for the same price...thereabouts. That's 3 apps for the price of one. And it's a definite pipeline. (I guess mine is Lightwave 3D 2018 (and my version 9.xxx) with Z-Brush 2018.) But I'm going to investigate Substance. That price is a steal. Like the poster above said, 'A no-brainer.' For me, personally in my case, If Z-Brush has painterly results...and Substance can do the 'overview' textures with fine procedural results to act as a base for 'naturalising' in Z-Brush...? Then the best of both worlds? (There's even Z-Brush Core which is very, very cheap if price is an issue but someone wants to try a 3D clay tool...)

I always seek value in whatever software I buy. I lookout for the sales and promotions. Companies that give me a good deal, I reward them with my loyalty if the App' is lauded, of course.

It's got to fit how you work, ultimately. There's personal preferences. Does a software click with you? Is it intuitive, elegant and ease to use and learn? Or is it hard work?

However, Z-Brush, 3D Coat, Substance Painter etc. all have demos. It would be worth downloading the demos. That way you can see if the software is resource hungry or works fine on the PC you have. ...and also whether you 'click' with the software...and it clicks with you.

Kyle.

erikals
09-02-2018, 10:31 AM
But will it look a bit 'generic' with a less natural painterly feel?
by default yes, but you can tweak adjust add like in any other app.
no fan of the 4k resolution limit in SP for terrain though.
however, great price.

think i'm sticking to 3DCoat, though SP should be affordable to everyone. seems nice.

hrgiger
09-02-2018, 01:55 PM
There's an experimental 8K in Painter.

Revanto
09-02-2018, 07:45 PM
I have both programs and, well, while 3d coat does have painting tools, Substance Painter is basically a painting (and baking and rendering) program. It's hard to compare when both programs are useful but they are not the same in terms of functionality. Yes, they overlap, but it is apples and oranges comparing the two even though they are both, hypothetically, fruits.

I bought 3d coat AGES ago because of the retopology tools. I already had Zbrush but I barely used it and I liked the retopo workflow in 3d coat. It wasn't until later that I used 3d coat to do very basic painting work (Zbrush was inefficient, in my opinion, by 'mainly' having polypainting - and still is, I think). For me, I consider 3d coat to be a supplementary program to aid in the development of models rather than a main program. Substance Painter won me over when I could finally paint using 'material' rather than individual textures. The weird thing was that way before substance painter or even designer came out that I had the idea of how cool it would be where you could paint with real life 'materials' like in Photoshop. And then my wish came true. I mean, I still suck as a 3d artist but at least I know I have the tools to make my life easier.

One final note regarding 3d coat, though. I was never really comfortable with the scultping tools in 3d coat. I bought zbrush and liked it but was never great. I got 3d coat and was worse. Then I fell in love with Sculptris because it felt like true sculpting. But, after watching enough videos online, despite my crappy ability to sculpt in 3d coat, there are tons of people who actually prefer and feel more comfortable with 3d coat. Plus they kick *** in their work. 3d coat has quite a few funky but useful tools that Zbrush doesn't have and that is a bonus but unless you try out the program yourself, you will never know if it is right for you. Substance Painter is a no-brainer in terms of buying because of how easy it is to texture models but give 3d coat a trial first and see if it fits into your workflow or not. It may be awkward at first but keep trying and then you may want to invest in it in the future as well.

Cheers,
Revanto :p

RPSchmidt
09-04-2018, 09:07 AM
I have both programs and, well, while 3d coat does have painting tools, Substance Painter is basically a painting (and baking and rendering) program. It's hard to compare when both programs are useful but they are not the same in terms of functionality. Yes, they overlap, but it is apples and oranges comparing the two even though they are both, hypothetically, fruits.

I bought 3d coat AGES ago because of the retopology tools. I already had Zbrush but I barely used it and I liked the retopo workflow in 3d coat. It wasn't until later that I used 3d coat to do very basic painting work (Zbrush was inefficient, in my opinion, by 'mainly' having polypainting - and still is, I think). For me, I consider 3d coat to be a supplementary program to aid in the development of models rather than a main program. Substance Painter won me over when I could finally paint using 'material' rather than individual textures. The weird thing was that way before substance painter or even designer came out that I had the idea of how cool it would be where you could paint with real life 'materials' like in Photoshop. And then my wish came true. I mean, I still suck as a 3d artist but at least I know I have the tools to make my life easier.

One final note regarding 3d coat, though. I was never really comfortable with the scultping tools in 3d coat. I bought zbrush and liked it but was never great. I got 3d coat and was worse. Then I fell in love with Sculptris because it felt like true sculpting. But, after watching enough videos online, despite my crappy ability to sculpt in 3d coat, there are tons of people who actually prefer and feel more comfortable with 3d coat. Plus they kick *** in their work. 3d coat has quite a few funky but useful tools that Zbrush doesn't have and that is a bonus but unless you try out the program yourself, you will never know if it is right for you. Substance Painter is a no-brainer in terms of buying because of how easy it is to texture models but give 3d coat a trial first and see if it fits into your workflow or not. It may be awkward at first but keep trying and then you may want to invest in it in the future as well.

Cheers,
Revanto :p

I appreciate the feedback. The fruits comparison really makes sense to me, as well as having tools that make my life easier.

Right now, I am trying to really focus on bringing up my texturing skills. They are adequate, occasionally dipping into "Whoa, wait a minute... I did that?" on rare occasions but only with far more work and effort put into the texturing process than I feel it merits because of the inadequate tools / processes I am using now.

Sculpting, for right now, is a secondary consideration. I would just like to get to the point where I create the model(s), throw it into the texturing software of choice, texture it and get a really excellent looking surface in the shortest amount of time possible.

Greenlaw
09-04-2018, 03:05 PM
I can't speak for Substance but I've been using 3D Coat from its earliest public beta and have used in for modeling, uv mapping and texturing in dozens of commercials and movie productions. In many past projects, I had to work under severe time constraints, and 3DC was perfect for knocking out detailed models and textures very quickly.

More recently, I've been using it to sculpt objects for 3D printing. My typical workflow is to block out the model in Lightwave, 'voxelize' it in 3DC, sculpt and detail it, retopo, and send it back to LightWave for final tweaks to insure printer acceptability. If I also need a 'painted' render of the part, 3DC is great for quickly generating UV maps.

Painting with 3DC is very intuitive. If you can use Photoshop, I think 3DC is pretty easy to pick up.

Since you're asking for a comparison between Substance and 3DC, I'm assuming you're only interested in texture painting capabilities. Based on other comments here, I'm going to assume Substance is probably better for that, but if you need all the other stuff I've described (sculpting, uv-mapping, retopo, etc.,) you can't go wrong with 3DC.

RPSchmidt
09-05-2018, 07:15 AM
I can't speak for Substance but I've been using 3D Coat from its earliest public beta and have used in for modeling, uv mapping and texturing in dozens of commercials and movie productions. In many past projects, I had to work under severe time constraints, and 3DC was perfect for knocking out detailed models and textures very quickly.

More recently, I've been using it to sculpt objects for 3D printing. My typical workflow is to block out the model in Lightwave, 'voxelize' it in 3DC, sculpt and detail it, retopo, and send it back to LightWave for final tweaks to insure printer acceptability. If I also need a 'painted' render of the part, 3DC is great for quickly generating UV maps.

Painting with 3DC is very intuitive. If you can use Photoshop, I think 3DC is pretty easy to pick up.

Since you're asking for a comparison between Substance and 3DC, I'm assuming you're only interested in texture painting capabilities. Based on other comments here, I'm going to assume Substance is probably better for that, but if you need all the other stuff I've described (sculpting, uv-mapping, retopo, etc.,) you can't go wrong with 3DC.

I am mostly interested in texture painting capabilities, but I don't want to end up with software that, when I need it, can't generate a decent UV.

That's one of the things that I've been seeing in the comments here, repeated by a few people; Substance for painting textures, but if I want a tool that paints AND unwraps UVs AND sculpts AND retopo, use 3d Coat.

Also, apparently 3d Coat supports up to 16k texture resolution.

I think I am definitely leaning towards 3d Coat's Swiss Army knife appeal. While I may not use any of the additional options, just the fact that they are there means I can use them when and if I want to.

Reco
09-05-2018, 07:54 AM
3D Coat has a projection painting option which I find very useful when painting trees and rocks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da8sheHAesg&t=1s

Greenlaw
09-05-2018, 02:43 PM
Then there's ZBrush of course, which is very similar in function to 3DC.

I use both but since I started with 3DC, I tend to fall back on it most of the time. It's been a while since I last used ZB but I believe they're still comparable in many ways, and their respective developers keep one-upping each other with each release.

The UI and workflow for each program is a bit different, so that part is a matter of preference. 3DC is easier for me to jump into, but ZB is very fast to work with once you learn the shorcuts. The problem for me is that I use ZB so infrequently, I have to keep re-learning them. :p

One neat feature in ZB is FiberMesh which lets you sculpt fiber guides that are compatible with LightWave's FiberFX. (It's what I used for all the 'B2' characters linked below.) Depending on how you intend to animate and surface the fibers, you may need a third party tool to transfer UV and weight maps from your character mesh to the imported guides. OD Tools has a tool for that, and Weighter 2 is another one.

Just a little extra info to make your purchasing decision more confusing. :)