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View Full Version : No arguments, genuine question, where is Lightwave 2018 going?



Paul_Boland
08-05-2018, 03:00 PM
Hi Folks.

We've had Lightwave Roadmap threads here before that turned into debates and arguments and I don't want this to follow suite. This is a genuine question... Where is Lightwave 2018 going?

We've had a bunch of micro-updates I call them because they are numbered 2018.0.X, current on 2018.0.6. The additional point in the version number has me wondering is there a Lightwave 2018.5 on the way? Or dare I ask, Lightwave Next? I'm curious about where Lightwave 2018 is going, what its future is? I guess I'm asking for a roadmap but it's purely a roadmap for Lightwave 2018, and not for Lightwave itself and its future.

dsoell
08-05-2018, 03:31 PM
Ask Rob Powers! :D

TheLexx
08-05-2018, 03:38 PM
Since LW2018 is out, my understanding is you should expect various bug fixes but nothing beyond what is broadly already there, as that would constitute a new version. I recall you mentioned a hair bug a while back - did you get any joy on that ? :)

erikals
08-05-2018, 03:41 PM
my guess for LightWave 2020, is a Modeler part-rewrite is up next, based on comments / statements.

what that will lead to ?

no clue.

OnlineRender
08-05-2018, 06:27 PM
where we are going we don't need roads

I can't tell what's happening with the software... but I can tell what happening with it's community.

it's flying

Chris S. (Fez)
08-05-2018, 11:39 PM
Maybe we'll see a .5 update at Siggraph. I am curious to see if they can maintain a yearly release schedule.

TheLexx
08-06-2018, 04:29 AM
I am curious to see if they can maintain a yearly release schedule.My own impression is the year simply identifies the year of release but was never intended to have a major release every year, which in my view is a good thing because it doesn't pressure the company to come up with any old thing just to notch up the year. :)

gar26lw
08-06-2018, 04:50 AM
hell knows. There was a survey, so I guess they are gonna do something based on user feedback.

Tobian
08-06-2018, 05:05 AM
Whilst the last few have not been major updates, it's a bit pissy to call them micro updates. the first 3 had hundreds of bug fixes between them.

Based on past form, and ONLY based on this, it won't have any new features unless it's a significant point release or whole release, so the fact they are releasing .01 releases tells you they aren't doing any new features for the moment.

Regarding your question: there are 3 types of users on this forum. 1) normal LightWave users who know just as much as you. 2) testers who CANNOT SAY, because of NDA, 3) Devs / management / marketing, who will communicate through official channels. The second 2 will not give up any information, except when management says so, which is precisely what happened at the launch of 2018... So exactly WHO are you ASKING for this information? You're asking people who don't know or can't say, so who's going to give you the answers you want? What you should have done is ask Newtek directly and post the reply up here, and that's the only answer you're going to get which isn't arguing and opinion.

Markc
08-06-2018, 05:48 AM
Even as a hobbyist, I upgrade every release (I haven't even scratched the surface of many features in LW).

That being said I don't hang on the premise of when is the next version coming out.......the day after a release (as was the case when 2018 was released with some on the forums....8~)

I use the software and as and when updates appear....that's cool.....:lightwave

gar26lw
08-06-2018, 05:52 AM
think you are missing a few Tobian ;)

Haters, trolls etc lol

Tobian
08-06-2018, 06:10 AM
Lol, technically they still fall into those 3 broad categories. Haters and trolls are almost all current or past lw users who know nothing, but opine much!

lardbros
08-06-2018, 06:13 AM
Even as a hobbyist, I upgrade every release (I haven't even scratched the surface of many features in LW).

That being said I don't hang on the premise of when is the next version coming out.......the day after a release (as was the case when 2018 was released with some on the forums....8~)

I use the software and as and when updates appear....that's cool.....:lightwave

I think this is the healthiest option :) If you worry about the future too much, you'll do yourself in.
I personally think there won't be any more major releases for 2018... just critical bug fixes etc. Probably when studios notice issues, which seems a good development plan to me.


So long as the next version doesn't take three years, I'll be happy to upgrade whenever the new one raises its head!
As for features, I think Newtek have done the right thing; Asking users for specific areas of development.

It may mean some of the background fixing work stalls a little (only a guess), or it may mean that adding the requested features will force them to do the groundwork on targeted areas, which in turn will help other areas... but either way, I think they're doing the right thing! It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Tim Parsons
08-06-2018, 06:50 AM
I suppose once they add Metamorphic that will warrant a 2018.5 release. :)

raymondtrace
08-06-2018, 06:56 AM
I cannot imagine any new features would be thrown away on a "stability update" instead of an upgrade. We've already booked the trip for LW2018 so a change in roadmap seems very unlikely.

The only way to predict the future is to observe the past:
https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/LightWave+History

There have been a few surprises in .5 releases but none of them were expected at the .0 release. That expectation cannot be any different now.

Wade
08-06-2018, 08:12 AM
Can't complain that they are fixing bugs before adding new features even if new features are much looked forward to - whatever they may be. I would not think it takes any time form what they are adding to just getting ride of bugs so they don't compound on top of new ones as new features are added. MODELER additions are much wanted it where I live "modeling" but better they be built on a working base that has its bugs addressed.

Morgan Nilsson
08-06-2018, 09:54 AM
I feel the need to clarify to some that usually in software development you branch off the current release (2018) for maintenance and stability fixing, and also have a next release branch.

I can pretty much guarantee that the bug fixes we see isn't everything they are doing.

Wickedpup
08-06-2018, 11:07 AM
think you are missing a few Tobian ;)

Haters, trolls etc lol
Do fanboys fall into the etc category? :hey:

Tobian
08-07-2018, 12:37 AM
Yup, fanboys are covered too. They are one of the 3 types. Either they know nothing, and just rant, or know something and can't say (And still rant) :)

gar26lw
08-07-2018, 09:10 AM
id say so, even trolling hater fanboys or fanboy hater trolls :)

Paul_Boland
08-07-2018, 09:55 AM
Since LW2018 is out, my understanding is you should expect various bug fixes but nothing beyond what is broadly already there, as that would constitute a new version. I recall you mentioned a hair bug a while back - did you get any joy on that ? :)

No, FiberFX bug still exists.

- - - Updated - - -


Whilst the last few have not been major updates, it's a bit pissy to call them micro updates. the first 3 had hundreds of bug fixes between them.

Based on past form, and ONLY based on this, it won't have any new features unless it's a significant point release or whole release, so the fact they are releasing .01 releases tells you they aren't doing any new features for the moment.

Regarding your question: there are 3 types of users on this forum. 1) normal LightWave users who know just as much as you. 2) testers who CANNOT SAY, because of NDA, 3) Devs / management / marketing, who will communicate through official channels. The second 2 will not give up any information, except when management says so, which is precisely what happened at the launch of 2018... So exactly WHO are you ASKING for this information? You're asking people who don't know or can't say, so who's going to give you the answers you want? What you should have done is ask Newtek directly and post the reply up here, and that's the only answer you're going to get which isn't arguing and opinion.

What I mean by micro-updates is not the amount of bug fixes, but the numbering - 2018.0.X. I'm just curious why this number is being used and does it mean a more substantial update is on the way?

Marander
08-07-2018, 10:33 AM
What I mean by micro-updates is not the amount of bug fixes, but the numbering - 2018.0.X. I'm just curious why this number is being used and does it mean a more substantial update is on the way?

Thats a common notation in sw dev, main_release.feature_release.maintenance_release(. interim_release)

jwiede
08-07-2018, 01:57 PM
Thats a common notation in sw dev, main_release.feature_release.maintenance_release(. interim_release)

You're missing the his point: That might be the meaning or it might be a more general "semantic versioning (https://semver.org/)"-type annotation, but regardless, the releases to date have been minor releases by most such schema definitions (and he's aware of that). He's simply asking if the designation of releases as minor to date really means larger releases will be forthcoming?

raymondtrace
08-07-2018, 03:00 PM
Asked and answered.

The 2018.0.X releases are described as "stability updates". That's all you can infer from the numbering. There are no promises or expectations of a more substantial update.

Using the "Major.Minor.Patch" versioning scheme, NewTek has used both "minor" (2015.1) and "patch" (2018.0.6) designations to issue bug fixes without the introduction of new features. Historically, a "minor" update may or may not be substantial so there's no reason to guess anything from the numbering we're currently observing.

Marander
08-07-2018, 03:06 PM
You're missing the his point: That might be the meaning or it might be a more general "semantic versioning (https://semver.org/)"-type annotation, but regardless, the releases to date have been minor releases by most such schema definitions (and he's aware of that). He's simply asking if the designation of releases as minor to date really means larger releases will be forthcoming?

Well we don't know what NewTek it up to. Yes, the releases so far have been maintenance / Patch ones and in my opinion the version numbers are as I would expect.

However I don't think by just using this schema it implies that there will ever be feature / Minor releases, but at least using this version schema leaves the possibility open for NewTek to do so.

If there would be a LW 2018.1 or 2018.5 people would expect new features (at least I would) or features / API functionality deprecated if they follow the Semantic Versioning specification. Thanks for that link by the way, interesting read.

DogBoy
08-07-2018, 03:52 PM
He's simply asking if the designation of releases as minor to date really means larger releases will be forthcoming?

Sure, but, as Tobian points out, anyone who does know is unlikely to be able to give any definitive answer to that: maybe we'll get a feature update, maybe we won't. If we are getting a "2018.5", or whatever, Newtek will tell us in their own good time. No offence against Paul, but they are unlikely to answer it here.

erikals
08-07-2018, 04:18 PM
they are unlikely to answer it here.

yep, NT policy.

they've followed the > no answers to upcoming LW forum questions < for 20 years

if someone manages to break that spell, let us know... https://i.imgur.com/BYFz23S.gif


-----

note, most 3D companies follow that trend, so if one is angry with NewTek, one should also be uneasy with Maya/Max/C4D/Modo/Houdini...

hrgiger
08-07-2018, 05:18 PM
note, most 3D companies follow that trend, so if one is angry with NewTek, one should also be uneasy with Maya/Max/C4D/Modo/Houdini...

No, not really. All of those apps also release every year(or multiple times a year) so people know what to expect. There is also more communication going on about development.

erikals
08-07-2018, 06:38 PM
well, i know Maya had the same problem at least, very vague communication.

by the way, we might disagree from time to time, but i did like the Modeler video you just posted.
hope you sent the request to NT

hrgiger
08-08-2018, 02:28 AM
by the way, we might disagree from time to time, but i did like the Modeler video you just posted.
hope you sent the request to NT

Thanks, at least two people from NT have commented on the video so I know it has been seen. I don't know what, if any, improvements to Modeler will be made, but it will be an uphill effort to catch up for what has not been done over the years. I had actually intended to make such a video a few years back when I was actively using Modeler. So it's just something I got off my plate.

TheLexx
08-08-2018, 04:28 AM
No, not really. All of those apps also release every year(or multiple times a year) so people know what to expect. There is also more communication going on about development.

May sound strange, but is that particularly a good thing ?

1) It means a user can say to themselves "Darn, they aren't working on what I wanted them to".

2) You are a Modo user and probably aware of the 4D R20 thread on their forum. One user has just said "Sooner or later people are going stop believing that the next C4D release is going to to be the big release that fixes all the long standing issues, it's never going to happen. The Maxon business model relies upon the glacial speed of development and MSA".

I am not promoting nor dissing any other software here, but just using the example to suggest that clockwork releasing same time each year perhaps introduces it's own subtle issues.

Btw, agreed that your video was fantastic - calm, measured, and communicated really well what you have been trying to say (which I haven't always previously understood). Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that.

:)

RPSchmidt
08-08-2018, 09:35 AM
Btw, agreed that your video was fantastic - calm, measured, and communicated really well what you have been trying to say (which I haven't always previously understood). Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that.

:)


What video? Where is it posted?

I would like to see it, also because I haven't fully understood some of the issues hrgiger has referred to in the past with Modeler. It will help me understand, and expand my knowledge at the same time!

Marander
08-08-2018, 09:52 AM
"The Maxon business model relies upon the glacial speed of development and MSA".

I know it's not your statement but I'd like to comment on that because overall, most registered / current users are very happy about the new release.

There are always users that are not happy with what is delivered (but that's the case for every software I guess). For example node based materials, there are certain users that always complained the lack having it, now it's there (and in my opinion the best nodal implementation I've seen in any package), but they claim now it's too late.

I definitively am happy, it's a giant upgrade with deep architectural changes as well.

And what is most important to me: What is implemented is integrated into its core architecture, rock solid, fast and well thought of in regards to usability and workflow.

Yes there are always some features missing and will be shipped in a next release but is there any software that is complete?

Most users that complain about the software are the ones that cannot afford it but would like to have it (or still use a very old version), from what I have noticed. There are some exceptions that are valid in my opinion, those few users are heavy into character animation - there is only one (rental-only) 3D package that really masters that.

However I don't want to start a software comparison / dispute, but 'glacial speed' is not a fair statement at all and MSA offers much more than the upgrade. The opposite is the case, I wonder how they managed to implement so much heavy stuff in just one year.

Nadir Mengal
08-08-2018, 10:26 AM
What video? Where is it posted?

I would like to see it, also because I haven't fully understood some of the issues hrgiger has referred to in the past with Modeler. It will help me understand, and expand my knowledge at the same time!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbXtNElghy0

TheLexx
08-08-2018, 10:55 AM
What video? Where is it posted?Nadir has provided the YT link, but thread post was here (https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156427-LightWave-3D-Modeler-Survey&p=1552163&viewfull=1#post1552163).

TheLexx
08-08-2018, 11:18 AM
@ Marander, thanks for your post, and character animation in 4D would be a fascinating subject sometime. As you'd appreciate, my point was more a general comparison to LW than dissing 4D (or LW) per se. :) On that note, I heard the top three guys of 4D are resigning and the company sold, yet it still appears business as usual - just imagine the amount of spilt coffee here if Newtek casually announced the same. :D Anyway, enough gossip from me (!).

Marander
08-08-2018, 11:29 AM
@TheLexx no worries and thanks for your reply.

Correct the 3 founders left but the company is not sold!

And I don't think it will be, in fact the new CAD support fits perfectly into the mother company's line of business.

However this is really going off topic, so over and out.

hrgiger
08-08-2018, 02:34 PM
May sound strange, but is that particularly a good thing ?

1) It means a user can say to themselves "Darn, they aren't working on what I wanted them to".

2) You are a Modo user and probably aware of the 4D R20 thread on their forum. One user has just said "Sooner or later people are going stop believing that the next C4D release is going to to be the big release that fixes all the long standing issues, it's never going to happen. The Maxon business model relies upon the glacial speed of development and MSA".



Well, first, I hate to spoil the surprise for anyone, but no release of any software ever is going to fix everyone's concerns. Things are scheduled and prioritized based on resources, time and talent.

But yes, in my honest opinion, I do think regular scheduled releases make sense and benefit most users. And as far as knowing what may be coming in the next release, to play devils advocate, look when the reverse happens like with LW. Users don't know what is being worked on nor have any idea when it could be released. This year, next year, the year after? What if you had waited all that time hoping for a feature that maybe someone from NT suggested they were looking at and people started speculating that it would be in the next release. Then that release comes and it's not in there. How much frustration was just created? By the way, this has happened in every release as far back as I can remember. Personally, I'd rather know that a feature wasn't being worked on, then get frustrated when I finally found out it wasn't. This in a nutshell has pretty much been my experience with Modeler.

Thanks for your feedback on the video.

jwiede
08-08-2018, 09:43 PM
I know it's not your statement but I'd like to comment on that because overall, most registered / current users are very happy about the new release.

Broadreach (at Foundry forums) clearly has an axe to grind. Many of his claims about MAXON/Nemetschek financials, managerial attitudes, and C4D customer sentiments should be taken with about a metric ton of NaCl. That said, he is correct about certain areas of C4D being seriously overdue for improvement (like Bodypaint).

jwiede
08-08-2018, 10:52 PM
On that note, I heard the top three guys of 4D are resigning and the company sold, yet it still appears business as usual

MAXON sold to whom? Nemetschek was already majority owner of MAXON, they just finally bought the remaining outstanding amount. Go look it up for yourself, don't just believe everything others say.

As for the departing leaders, they've all been there for a LONG time, are near or past typical retirement age, and are retiring. Obviously the financial community expected that to happen, it shows in virtually every piece written about the changes being positive in tone about both the departing leaders _and_ the new incoming CEO. Execs retiring happens all the time, it's only a big deal when it happens unexpectedly and/or under unusual/negative circumstances, neither which are the case here.

lardbros
08-15-2018, 12:40 AM
Sorry for derailing the thread, but funny that all the departing changes being written about in a positive tone by the financial press :)

They do that, so they don't lose stocks prices. A friend of mine worked in a hedge fund, and used to analyse press statements made by companies to ascertain if there were issues, and sell their stocks, or buy more.

A positive press release isn't always good news, nor is it always bad. Just saying, that when you have shareholders to look after you can't go making it look like a situation wasn't handled correctly.

The same friend's hedge fund manager/owner got fired... As he wasn't doing a very good job, but the press release said he "was leaving to pursue his dream of doing some charity work" :)

Made me laugh.