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BeeVee
07-20-2018, 03:01 AM
The question is simple, do you use the Hub with LightWave?

B
PS. I realise now that I should have approached the poll from the other direction "Do you disable the Hub?", with exactly the same answers, but it's too late now.

BeeVee
07-20-2018, 04:43 AM
Obviously, for people who actually use both platforms, you only have one vote in a poll. Vote for the option that best represents your work overall, but feel free to post a reply to the thread as well.

B

erikals
07-20-2018, 04:54 AM
i do,

i'll say it again though, Modeler / Layout should use the same C/C++ code,
then none of this HUB/split-app stuff would've been a problem.

and it would cut the "maintain code" issue in roughly half.

lasco
07-20-2018, 06:06 AM
I don't understand the question. What do you call "use" the Hub. It launches alone and works alone. What would one have to specifically "do" with it ?

erikals
07-20-2018, 06:17 AM
over the years, some have reported HUB problems, so there's a certain percentage of users turning it off.

PeT
07-20-2018, 06:21 AM
I don't understand the question. What do you call "use" the Hub. It launches alone and works alone. What would one have to specifically "do" with it ?

X:\LIGHTWAVE20153\bin\Modeler.exe -0
X:\LIGHTWAVE20153\bin\Layout.exe -0

raw-m
07-20-2018, 06:29 AM
On OS X, yes, but getting really tired of it’s (and Modeler) constant crashing in the background while using Layout. Been like this throughout LW2018 and can’t report because I don’t know how to reproduce it!

dsol
07-20-2018, 06:53 AM
I do, it sometimes saves my bacon if Layout or modeller crash. I'd prefer to have a unified app though!

MAUROCOR
07-20-2018, 07:39 AM
I do, it sometimes saves my bacon if Layout or modeller crash. I'd prefer to have a unified app though!

:i_agree::i_agree::i_agree:

MonroePoteet
07-20-2018, 07:56 AM
I don't explicitly disable the Hub (which might have been a better survey question - sorry, BeeVee! :) ), so I "use" it. The models / scenes I work on are usually very simple, and since that's one of the primary functions of the Hub, I may have just lucked out. It does crash occasionally under LW2018.0.5, as well as Modeler crashing. They restart just fine so I haven't been disabling it. I still haven't detected a specific workflow / action that causes the crashes, though.

mTp

Nicolas Jordan
07-20-2018, 08:25 AM
I started using Lightwave with version 6. I think that was the first version to have the hub so for me it has always been a part of Lightwave I have accepted as the norm and used.

BeeVee
07-20-2018, 08:51 AM
@MonroePoteet, you're right! Still the same options, but the question reversed - "Do you disable the Hub?". Oh well, next time.

B

raymondtrace
07-20-2018, 09:03 AM
As users may be unaware of its presence and what it does, it may be ideal to ask "do you intentionally disable hub.exe?"

EDIT: oops. I took way too long to type something already said.

Tim Parsons
07-20-2018, 12:34 PM
I have found flakeyness in 2018 with what I presume is Hub related. You can make changes to surfaces in Layout and then decide you need to send the object to Modeler to change some geometry and then all of a sudden your surface changes are gone. I don't recall that happening in 2015,11,10 etc.. And yes, maybe saving the object beforehand would be prudent, but still I don't think this is right.

jbrookes
07-20-2018, 02:01 PM
I've never really had a need to use the Hub. I see it more as a convenience and don't really use it.

One of the first things I do after an install is (Windows) Right-click the desktop icon, select Properties, and insert -0 after the file path.

Nicolas Jordan
07-20-2018, 02:54 PM
I find the hub to be a key part of my workflow using Lightwave. I jump back and forth from Modeler to Layout constantly while working with the hub keeping everything updated. I have experienced some weirdness and sync issues from time to time but I find that they are minimal.

BigHache
07-20-2018, 03:23 PM
I used to exclusively have it disabled because it caused too many problems and impeded my workflow more than it was actually helping it.

With 2018 I forgot to disable it, and it actually has been behaving for the most part. 'For the most part' meaning I can't point out an issue where I directly saw, "Oh, this this the Hub doing its thing".

jwiede
07-20-2018, 03:57 PM
I used to exclusively have it disabled because it caused too many problems and impeded my workflow more than it was actually helping it.

With 2018 I forgot to disable it, and it actually has been behaving for the most part. 'For the most part' meaning I can't point out an issue where I directly saw, "Oh, this this the Hub doing its thing".

This is kind of my experience as well. Prior to 2018, Hub was so unstable on Mac LW, that I always renamed it (thereby disabling it on Mac). I never bothered doing so for LW2018, and thus far Hub has been well-behaved.

That said, I guess I have seen Layout object changes cause Modeler to crash a few times on Mac LW2018, which appears to be Hub-related, but not enough to make me disable it yet.

Greenlaw
07-20-2018, 04:01 PM
I find the hub to be a key part of my workflow using Lightwave. I jump back and forth from Modeler to Layout constantly while working with the hub keeping everything updated. I have experienced some weirdness and sync issues from time to time but I find that they are minimal.

That more or less matches my experience. I definitely work more efficiently with Hub enabled.

When I might see problems with Hub (i.e., crashing) is when I forget to turn off VPR before switching back and forth. If VPR is off, switching with Hub is reasonably stable for me.

hrgiger
07-20-2018, 05:36 PM
Never, I always set my exe with a -0 to disable it.

Nicolas Jordan
07-20-2018, 07:25 PM
That more or less matches my experience. I definitely work more efficiently with Hub enabled.

When I might see problems with Hub (i.e., crashing) is when I forget to turn off VPR before switching back and forth. If VPR is off, switching with Hub is reasonably stable for me.

Turning off VPR is also something I'm in the habit of doing when going back and forth as well. It seems to keep things more stable and a bit snappier.

Oedo 808
07-21-2018, 02:10 AM
Never.

Bill Carey
07-21-2018, 07:46 AM
I was having crashing problems and disabled it. Missed it enough to stop upgrading in place, solved most of my crashes and I turned it back on. :)

Dan Ritchie
07-21-2018, 11:02 AM
I voted never, but I've used it a few times. Almost never. I don't do a lot of modeling, but when I do, it's just modeling. Not modeling and rendering, or rendering and modeling. I don't wear two hats at the same time.

fishhead
07-21-2018, 12:15 PM
I use it always, never even tried to use LW without. I on some occasions had the situation that VPR did not like the changes I did in modeler, but learned to "respect" that and (in most cases) act accordingly... For me a very small annoyance - despite that It serves me quite well. wouldn´t want to work without it.
I am on Win7 - not sure if that might make a difference in regards to general stability...

OnlineRender
07-21-2018, 01:44 PM
our soundcloud discussion in the hub
some good stuff and info , take a listen

https://soundcloud.com/steven-scott-2/do-you-use-the-hub-lightwave3d-hot-topic

Meshbuilder
07-21-2018, 03:29 PM
For me 2018 modeler crash alot when working in layout, more than 2015. This on Mac OS. I have started to turn the hub off.

jwiede
07-21-2018, 08:01 PM
Okay, I understand that things have changed for LW2018, but up through LW2015 the way to disable the Hub in LW for Mac was to rename it (f.e. to "~Hub" aka "~Hub.app"). It was quick, it was easy, and it allowed users to continue to launch the existing Layout and Modeler apps as normal. For some time, renaming the Hub on Mac was equivalent to putting "-0" in the app's command line in the icons on Windows. Because there's no easy way to change the launch command line for apps on Mac, this was a convenient, well-known and workable solution -- and a needed one, because the Hub was famous for greatly reducing stability on Mac for many years.

Now, with LW2018, renaming the hub (aka "the prior-standard approach to disabling the Hub on Mac") causes both Modeler and Layout to crash on launch -- at least that's what they do here, anyway. I'd be interested if they don't do that elsewhere?

The readme file details a process by which Mac users can use TextEdit to create Bash scripts to provide a means for launching Layout and Modeler apps with hub disabled, and use chmod (!) to enable the execute permissions on the user-created scripts, setting up those to be able to be launched by double-clicking from Finder. Hilariously, they only even tell users how to do it for Layout, figuring out how to revise the process for for Modeler is left as an exercise for the user. It's worth noting the process is significantly more complicated than the equivalent process on Windows (adding "-0" to a field in each app's icon cmd line), and most importantly, is not at all how such things are normally handled on Mac.

Mac has a "standard" approach for altering apps' default properties, using the "defaults" command-line tool -- f.e. something like "defaults write com.newtek.lightwave3d DisableHub -bool true" would be a reasonable choice for LW. It's well-documented in the macOS developer documentation (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsuserdefaults?language=objc), and (even better than the Windows approach, should theoretically not need to be redone between revisions). Alas, Newtek makes no use of it.

Even if the devs are hell-bent on forcing LW users on Mac to use Bash scripts to do so, Newtek could at least provide those scripts in a "Misc" folder in the Mac LW install distribution or such. They do not. Instead, they just tell users to open TextEdit and use that to create the script, launch terminal and use chmod to make the script executable, and so forth. Between breaking a long-standing, well-known method for how to disable the Hub on Mac (and having Layout and Modeler crash instead), not using the macOS-standard defaults facility, nor even bothering to provide convenience scripts for Mac LW customers, this feels very much like LW devs putting their own convenience ahead of customers.

Newtek needs do a better job dealing with this situation. Either they need to (ideally) make the old approach work again, use the "defaults" facility to control launching with Hub disabled, or provide Mac LW customers with pre-built (& properly authorized) utility scripts to launch Layout and Modeler without Hub. The current non-approach is also non-acceptable.

raw-m
07-22-2018, 11:17 AM
Mac users - in the Hub/options - set Automatic Shutdown to 1 hour. I (currently!) have not had a crashing issue since doing it :D

pixym
07-22-2018, 03:22 PM
Hello BeeVee,

I always use the HUB !

jwiede
07-22-2018, 05:13 PM
Mac users - in the Hub/options - set Automatic Shutdown to 1 hour. I (currently!) have not had a crashing issue since doing it :D

How much do you use Modeler?

While I was focusing most of my testing on Layout, I didn't really notice much in the way of Hub-related shenanigans, but once I began focusing on Modeler, I did encounter stability issues which were similar to the "bad, old, Mac Hub issues". And then when I tried to turn the Hub off, I encountered that new Mac LW clusterfsck (which triggered #28 above -- changing stuff is fine, but making it significantly more complex/difficult than before, and in non-"standard" manners, is not).

kopperdrake
07-23-2018, 03:19 AM
I do, it sometimes saves my bacon if Layout or modeller crash. I'd prefer to have a unified app though!

:dito:

kopperdrake
07-23-2018, 03:23 AM
Turning off VPR is also something I'm in the habit of doing when going back and forth as well. It seems to keep things more stable and a bit snappier.

This^^ On the rare occasion I get a crash flipping between Layout and Modeler in 2015, it's often with VPR enabled. Usually from Layout to Modeler.

kadri
07-27-2018, 12:04 AM
Never. It was too much of a problem in the past for me. I have kind of a Hubphobia.
When i accidentally open Lightwave from a scene,object file and see the hub i close all first.

lardbros
08-03-2018, 05:33 AM
I always use the hub, but since 2018 I am REALLY struggling with Hub crashes and Modeller crashing when I switch between other apps and back to Layout or Modeller.
Going from Powerpoint and back to LightWave and the hub will crash after a while.

I have always used the Hub, but 2018 is making me rethink.

BeeVee
08-03-2018, 06:24 AM
Interesting! There have been moments in 2018 where the Hub has slowed things down a lot for me - especially if I've switched to another app or the web and back - but it's working well now.

B

3dworks
08-03-2018, 09:03 AM
Okay, I understand that things have changed for LW2018, but up through LW2015 the way to disable the Hub in LW for Mac was to rename it (f.e. to "~Hub" aka "~Hub.app"). It was quick, it was easy, and it allowed users to continue to launch the existing Layout and Modeler apps as normal. For some time, renaming the Hub on Mac was equivalent to putting "-0" in the app's command line in the icons on Windows. Because there's no easy way to change the launch command line for apps on Mac, this was a convenient, well-known and workable solution -- and a needed one, because the Hub was famous for greatly reducing stability on Mac for many years.

Now, with LW2018, renaming the hub (aka "the prior-standard approach to disabling the Hub on Mac") causes both Modeler and Layout to crash on launch -- at least that's what they do here, anyway. I'd be interested if they don't do that elsewhere?

The readme file details a process by which Mac users can use TextEdit to create Bash scripts to provide a means for launching Layout and Modeler apps with hub disabled, and use chmod (!) to enable the execute permissions on the user-created scripts, setting up those to be able to be launched by double-clicking from Finder. Hilariously, they only even tell users how to do it for Layout, figuring out how to revise the process for for Modeler is left as an exercise for the user. It's worth noting the process is significantly more complicated than the equivalent process on Windows (adding "-0" to a field in each app's icon cmd line), and most importantly, is not at all how such things are normally handled on Mac.

Mac has a "standard" approach for altering apps' default properties, using the "defaults" command-line tool -- f.e. something like "defaults write com.newtek.lightwave3d DisableHub -bool true" would be a reasonable choice for LW. It's well-documented in the macOS developer documentation (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsuserdefaults?language=objc), and (even better than the Windows approach, should theoretically not need to be redone between revisions). Alas, Newtek makes no use of it.

Even if the devs are hell-bent on forcing LW users on Mac to use Bash scripts to do so, Newtek could at least provide those scripts in a "Misc" folder in the Mac LW install distribution or such. They do not. Instead, they just tell users to open TextEdit and use that to create the script, launch terminal and use chmod to make the script executable, and so forth. Between breaking a long-standing, well-known method for how to disable the Hub on Mac (and having Layout and Modeler crash instead), not using the macOS-standard defaults facility, nor even bothering to provide convenience scripts for Mac LW customers, this feels very much like LW devs putting their own convenience ahead of customers.

Newtek needs do a better job dealing with this situation. Either they need to (ideally) make the old approach work again, use the "defaults" facility to control launching with Hub disabled, or provide Mac LW customers with pre-built (& properly authorized) utility scripts to launch Layout and Modeler without Hub. The current non-approach is also non-acceptable.

100% agree and nothing to add but asking NT developers to fix this and allow the easy old way to disable the hub on mac os.

markus

BeeVee
08-03-2018, 09:32 AM
The commandline options in Windows are there for the exception rather than the rule, there so you can swiftly make a change that can be just as swiftly reverted; it's not changing defaults, but I understand what you are saying. Have you both reported the Hub name change lack using the Feedback Agent?

As for standard, LightWave never has been standard, on any platform. Always reaching for more... ;)

All the best,

B

Chuck
08-03-2018, 03:57 PM
Okay, I understand that things have changed for LW2018, but up through LW2015 the way to disable the Hub in LW for Mac was to rename it (f.e. to "~Hub" aka "~Hub.app"). It was quick, it was easy, and it allowed users to continue to launch the existing Layout and Modeler apps as normal. For some time, renaming the Hub on Mac was equivalent to putting "-0" in the app's command line in the icons on Windows. Because there's no easy way to change the launch command line for apps on Mac, this was a convenient, well-known and workable solution -- and a needed one, because the Hub was famous for greatly reducing stability on Mac for many years.

Now, with LW2018, renaming the hub (aka "the prior-standard approach to disabling the Hub on Mac") causes both Modeler and Layout to crash on launch -- at least that's what they do here, anyway. I'd be interested if they don't do that elsewhere?

The readme file details a process by which Mac users can use TextEdit to create Bash scripts to provide a means for launching Layout and Modeler apps with hub disabled, and use chmod (!) to enable the execute permissions on the user-created scripts, setting up those to be able to be launched by double-clicking from Finder. Hilariously, they only even tell users how to do it for Layout, figuring out how to revise the process for for Modeler is left as an exercise for the user. It's worth noting the process is significantly more complicated than the equivalent process on Windows (adding "-0" to a field in each app's icon cmd line), and most importantly, is not at all how such things are normally handled on Mac.

Mac has a "standard" approach for altering apps' default properties, using the "defaults" command-line tool -- f.e. something like "defaults write com.newtek.lightwave3d DisableHub -bool true" would be a reasonable choice for LW. It's well-documented in the macOS developer documentation (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsuserdefaults?language=objc), and (even better than the Windows approach, should theoretically not need to be redone between revisions). Alas, Newtek makes no use of it.

Even if the devs are hell-bent on forcing LW users on Mac to use Bash scripts to do so, Newtek could at least provide those scripts in a "Misc" folder in the Mac LW install distribution or such. They do not. Instead, they just tell users to open TextEdit and use that to create the script, launch terminal and use chmod to make the script executable, and so forth. Between breaking a long-standing, well-known method for how to disable the Hub on Mac (and having Layout and Modeler crash instead), not using the macOS-standard defaults facility, nor even bothering to provide convenience scripts for Mac LW customers, this feels very much like LW devs putting their own convenience ahead of customers.

Newtek needs do a better job dealing with this situation. Either they need to (ideally) make the old approach work again, use the "defaults" facility to control launching with Hub disabled, or provide Mac LW customers with pre-built (& properly authorized) utility scripts to launch Layout and Modeler without Hub. The current non-approach is also non-acceptable.

I would recommend to submit this as a bug report. Might limit it to the specific issue that a couple of non-Mac-standard means were being used to allow for the Hub to be disabled and that it is a bug that the OS-provided solution was not used in the first place.

Actually two bug reports - Layout and Modeler crash when Hub executable is not found; Use standard Mac-OS provided means to run Layout and Modeler without the Hub.

jwiede
08-03-2018, 05:39 PM
I would recommend to submit this as a bug report. Might limit it to the specific issue that a couple of non-Mac-standard means were being used to allow for the Hub to be disabled and that it is a bug that the OS-provided solution was not used in the first place.

Already filed as LWB-4235.


Actually two bug reports - Layout and Modeler crash when Hub executable is not found; Use standard Mac-OS provided means to run Layout and Modeler without the Hub.

Just filed as LWB-4240, actually.

Thanks Chuck!

Morgan Nilsson
09-26-2018, 04:11 PM
So, how does one disable the hub on MacOS?

Asticles
09-28-2018, 12:11 PM
I have to change my vote, have tested to work without the Hub, and it's much more stable. The only thing I miss is the Layout view.

Regards.

Stardust
10-06-2018, 06:40 AM
I've just disabled the "Hub".... what exactly is it good for?

BeeVee
10-09-2018, 05:04 PM
The Hub acts as communication between the two halves of LightWave - Layout, and Modeler. It sends files and changes to and fro automatically behind the scenes.

B

PS. You disabled the Hub without knowing why?

kyleprometheus
10-14-2018, 06:41 AM
The Hub acts as communication between the two halves of LightWave - Layout, and Modeler. It sends files and changes to and fro automatically behind the scenes.

B

PS. You disabled the Hub without knowing why?

Hello BeeVee,

I understood that 'The Hub' acts as a comm' link between the two halves of the LightWave program. So, it seems important to have around from that point of view.

It's a bit wobbly in LW3D 2018. Error messages/Bug report alerts pop up from time to time (they're not deal breakers but can pop up after even simple scenes but doesn't stop me saving a scene but they won't go away unless I click on them several times. I'm not pushing heavy polygons or big renders yet...) In fairness, I haven't installed the latest LightWave 3D 2018 .06 for Mac yet. But I will do so and test some more.

Unless it's something to do with me not saving out a scene folder 'path' for all the bits and pieces e.g. models and textures etc. ...and it's the 'path file' that's getting lost because I haven't established that from the 1st instance.

Regards,

Kyle.

lardbros
10-14-2018, 07:34 AM
My hub or Modeller crashes an AWFUL lot. I've reported it, with crash dumps and other info to help, but not heard back.

It seems to happen here when I do a save all objects and scene in Layout, and then switch over to Modeller... Instacrash. But not all the time :(
It would be awesome to get this sorted before whatever release happens next.

Kryslin
10-14-2018, 07:56 AM
I too, have been getting a lot of Modeler crashes when the Hub and Layout are running, most of the time while Modeler is idle, but not always.

BeeVee
10-14-2018, 10:00 AM
It sounds to me like you have not set up a content directory and so LightWave is asking you each time where images or objects are when you load a scene, would that be right?

Take a gander at this page in the wiki - https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display/LW2018/Content+Directory In essence what it is saying is that you should really stick to LightWave's standard of a directory (the content directory in question), with at least three subdirectories. They should be named:


Images
Objects
Scenes



And your appropriate files should live therein. If you manage your files this way, you should never get messages when loading complaining about not being able to find files. In addition, you can gather everything automatically if you load a scene, manually finding the required files, and then use Package Scene in the Save menu. This will ask for a path, then save all of the scene's components to the right places finally loading up the newly-corrected scene.

Hope this helps,

B

BeeVee
10-14-2018, 10:03 AM
For those getting crashes with the Hub, getting bug reports in is useful since a crash report also contains a crash dump report that should narrow down what is causing the crash. If you're systematically doing that, thanks in advance :)

B

tburbage
10-14-2018, 12:43 PM
Ben,

Another interesting question might be HOW people use the Hub. As you know, there's Send To Layout and then there's incremental change sync'ing. I would be most suspicious of the latter in terms of looking for weak points. I always have the Hub on, and have not experienced issues I would associate with it, but tend to work mostly in one or the other rather than doing a lot of incremental update in Modeler then sync.

BeeVee
10-14-2018, 03:10 PM
Hi,

I think it might be difficult to ask - I think that most people's use of the Hub is strictly autonomic. :)

B