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View Full Version : Make Human- Development stagnation?



prometheus
07-02-2018, 07:20 AM
It seems like quite a while since any update of the free make human software , while I found it interesting and nice, it sort of falls a bit flat compared to daz studio, but it had nice geometries based on real humans and age settings and race settings that I really donīt think is implemented in the standard daz studio.

Manuel Bastioni seem to have done a lot of work with make human, but it seems he is doing his own thing with his blender figure plugin nowadays, maybe that explains some lack of updates?

erikals
07-02-2018, 01:28 PM
it seems he is doing his own thing with his blender figure plugin nowadays, maybe that explains some lack of updates?
not impossible he moved the attention over there.

erikals
07-02-2018, 01:33 PM
p.s. off topic, fractal generator >
https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?157484

https://i.imgur.com/3svtGCw.jpg

Marander
07-02-2018, 03:26 PM
...compared to daz studio, but it had nice geometries based on real humans and age settings and race settings that I really donīt think is implemented in the standard daz studio.

Not out of the box but there are tons of very good age and vasc morphs (as well as countless other head and body modifiers) available for DS.

prometheus
07-03-2018, 07:06 AM
not impossible he moved the attention over there.

the manuelbastioni lab for figure in blender is nice indeed, especially the skin shading, and that it can be run within blender, but it is also...Much much slower to setup, the menuīs are not good, and is having a hard time making sense in blenders own cluttered interface, and I would actually prefer the standalone tool make human, you have mor organized acess to changing of gender, age, muscle mass and other tweaks, and it also responds much quicker than bastioni lab within blender.

- - - Updated - - -


Not out of the box but there are tons of very good age and vasc morphs (as well as countless other head and body modifiers) available for DS.

Yeah..I figure there is some stuff, I just donīt have the time to lurk around right now to find it for daz..that is why pre-build morphs within a software makes life a bit easier, rather than lurking around that marketplace to download each morph seperately and install..I am lazy currently due to vacation :) might have a look at it later though.

erikals
07-03-2018, 07:33 AM
a quite nice app, for now i'll just take the MH>LW route, instead of the Blender one

for the reasons you say   :)

prometheus
07-03-2018, 10:37 AM
a quite nice app, for now i'll just take the MH>LW route, instead of the Blender one

for the reasons you say   :)

Yup..
and a tip, if you do not know..
when exporting obj figures from make human, I would suggest check the meter unit in the scale unit option, that should give you the correct scale when importing to lightwave, the cm unit ends up completely wrong.
And surfacing needs to be adjusted, like for the body you need turning the 100% transperancy down to 0, and also uncheck that texture, for eyes it may be enough by turning down the transparency there as well.

erikals
07-03-2018, 11:46 AM
thanks! noted!   :king:

Marander
07-03-2018, 01:16 PM
Yeah..I figure there is some stuff, I just donīt have the time to lurk around right now to find it for daz..that is why pre-build morphs within a software makes life a bit easier, rather than lurking around that marketplace to download each morph seperately and install..I am lazy currently due to vacation :) might have a look at it later though.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant commercial morphs, for example from Zev0, they're great and go far beyond what's possible with MakeHuman. Installation in DAZ via DIM is automatic for all products.

prometheus
07-03-2018, 03:31 PM
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant commercial morphs, for example from Zev0, they're great and go far beyond what's possible with MakeHuman. Installation in DAZ via DIM is automatic for all products.

Figured so as well, and therein lies the problem, I am not in such desperate need of such morphs that I would pay for them.
Unless I simple would want them for some reason..but not likely, .and could actually make my owns if needed..question is how good and accurate they would be if we aim for various race morphs etc, as I am aware of..the parameters in make human seem to be researched properly on a proper Ethnicity basis.
Age morphs are easier.

Edit ..yes, Zev0 seem to have done nice morphs, not bad at all.

Rayek
07-04-2018, 02:49 AM
a quite nice app, for now i'll just take the MH>LW route, instead of the Blender one

for the reasons you say   :)

Do realize that the figures in ManuelBastioniLab are VASTLY improved in both mesh and quality of the anatomy - there is really no comparison. Makehuman meshes are beginning to look like Sims in comparison. Not to mention the displacement maps, the deformation quality, the Skin editor, the option to control the export of various skin textures (including displacement ones), the expression editor, and the muscle system, as well as the addition of stylized figures.

Manuel is currently working on a realistic muscular male (more than 70% done), and works like a man obsessed with creating the most anatomically correct humans. Just check out his current work on a realistic eye shader, and the work he did on the feet.

Manuel never mentioned why he left the MH project, but reading between the lines of his comments on the Blender forums I think he no longer wished to support virtual humans below the legal age (18 year and older only). He made it quite explicit in a number of his answers that his LAB will never support under-age characters. I have a feeling he saw his work abused by certain unsavory parties on the web, and decided to withdraw and go solo, because his main interest is in providing a scientific study of the human body. That's what drives him.

The meshes are so good, that I use quick renders to practice drawing anatomy and Bargue drawings of selected parts.

Also, the workflow is quite different in both. ManuelBastioniLab works in two stages: first set up the character properties, then generate and save out a fully rigged version which is easy to pose using the standard Blender pose tools, and/or by selecting presets.

Makehuman is very much lacking in comparison nowadays. I see no reason to use MH myself anymore at this point - Manuel was one of the (if not THE primary) driving factors behind Makehuman, and since he left MH's development virtualy stopped in its tracks. He redid all the base meshes a number of times now, and with various revisions, ever improving the mesh quality and anatomy features.

So, even if you don't like Blender that much, MH just isn't worth using anymore in my opinion - unless you are satisfied with sub-par quality. My two cents.

PS turn off subdivision preview in the display options to speed things up.

erikals
07-04-2018, 06:00 AM
hm, ok, will take a second look at ManuelBastioniLab   :)

http://www.manuelbastioni.com/manuellab.php

prometheus
07-04-2018, 06:03 AM
Do realize that the figures in ManuelBastioniLab are VASTLY improved in both mesh and quality of the anatomy - there is really no comparison. Makehuman meshes are beginning to look like Sims in comparison. Not to mention the displacement maps, the deformation quality, the Skin editor, the option to control the export of various skin textures (including displacement ones), the expression editor, and the muscle system, as well as the addition of stylized figures.



Manuel never mentioned why he left the MH project, but reading between the lines of his comments on the Blender forums I think he no longer wished to support virtual humans below the legal age (18 year and older only).

So, even if you don't like Blender that much, MH just isn't worth using anymore in my opinion - unless you are satisfied with sub-par quality. My two cents.

.

Well..I donīt agree with you, I think make human may have a place for me for some stuff, you can always modify with sculpting, do morphs.. and change textures or shaders yourself, and as you say...even if you donīt like blender...that isnīt it for me, it is that bastionilab is too slow and to messy in itīs own interface within blender.

As for age...I can understand his reason for it..but itīs also a part of why I rather would go with daz, I do not like others to censur what I maybe have need for, making a family..portraiting it in archviz, or do a growing effect morph etc.

Same with his nudity censorship..I can understand his fear for misuse, but it also make his product less useful in certain aspects, thus for me and some others of less interest...and I think make human may die out eventually, actually think that may be the case with his bastionilab as well...just guessing.

When you say vastly improved in mesh quality, do you mean a much better topology, or simply higher denser mesh? or both?
I love the skin shading though in bastionilab, the speed of generating the figure I do not like, neither do I like the settings..but hey, it leaves room for improvements.

about subpar quality, depends on what you need it for...bastionilabs meshes would probably be considered subpar to Tenīs real scanned humans, there is always levels of what you need.

prometheus
07-04-2018, 07:05 AM
Confirming some stuff rayek mentioned about topology mesh quality.


right is bastiony proxy male human, left is a guy at my age 52, and itīs most likely not the age problem here..but lesser topology quality, the left guy is around 14.000 polyīs and bastioni to the right around 17 000 polys.
will have to check some other topologys that can be choosen in make human and see how they look like as well.

Even though bastionis topology is better, I wouldnīt discard make human use anyway.

https://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=142073&d=1530709505

erikals
07-04-2018, 09:28 AM
the MH version isn't quite as good, however, you should use the Geometries/Topology/Male generic preset

the B version, quite nice topology, certainly better.

prometheus
07-04-2018, 09:49 AM
the MH version isn't quite as good, however, you should use the Geometries/Topology/Male generic preset

the B version, quite nice topology, certainly better.

The Male muscle 13290 topology preset is probably better than the Male generic preset.

erikals
07-04-2018, 10:16 AM
yes, really depends o what one wants.

defined muscle geometry works to a certain degree for animation, however for muscle simulation it is not recommended, since it creates bad topology.
few use muscle simulation in LightWave or other apps though, so probably not a deal breaker for most.

another thing, if modifying it into cartoon characters (or such) one often wants more lowres & smooth topology.

an interesting thing about MH standalone is that the standard topology allows for morphing male/female/young/old
not sure if the B version does.

prometheus
07-04-2018, 11:40 AM
yes, really depends o what one wants.

defined muscle geometry works to a certain degree for animation, however for muscle simulation it is not recommended, since it creates bad topology.
few use muscle simulation in LightWave or other apps though, so probably not a deal breaker for most.

another thing, if modifying it into cartoon characters (or such) one often wants more lowres & smooth topology.

an interesting thing about MH standalone is that the standard topology allows for morphing male/female/young/old
not sure if the B version does.

No...itīs ridiculously limited to 18 years old, not a day under that age, and the age parameters are sliders at 0-1 values, with no option to set exact age from scratch..you just have to move the slider and be aware of what age you get in the parameters.

If you want to do a growing up morph animation, you would be better off just do it in daz studio within the animation timeline, keyframe at first frame with 100% child, and at the end frame move the slider to 0%, save the scene as fbx with morphs and import to lightwave.. that works, or use make human morphs.

erikals
07-04-2018, 12:34 PM
certainly a limitation. one could always do that in MH though.

just had a look at proxy meshes, unfortunately, couldn't figure out how to make them...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6bzuWozbN8


Anime target info >
http://www.aversionofreality.com/blog/2015/11/16/makehuman-11-anime-style-custom-target-test

bit more on targets >
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/wiki/Documentation:Targets

safetyman
07-05-2018, 06:10 AM
I haven't used MH is forever... I doubt it will continue development since Manuel was the genius behind it.
Here is a ManuelLab figure I did yesterday. Clothes and textures by me, rendered in Blender:

142095

If you are interested in the Daz side of things, try the Diffeomorphic plugin for Blender -- you'll be amazed.

erikals
07-05-2018, 07:19 AM
doubt it will continue development since Manuel was the genius behind it.
yes, i think this might very well be.

i'll quite possibly use both MH / ML in the future...

prometheus
07-06-2018, 07:54 AM
I haven't used MH is forever... I doubt it will continue development since Manuel was the genius behind it.
Here is a ManuelLab figure I did yesterday. Clothes and textures by me, rendered in Blender:

142095

If you are interested in the Daz side of things, try the Diffeomorphic plugin for Blender -- you'll be amazed.

I do sometimes need nude figures(not necessarely for prn) but for classic art styled stuff, and pure beaty renderings of humans in itīs nature glory without being obscene, this requires to create new textures for bastioni figures, as well as creating additional geometry for genitals sometimes.

Bastioni works for figures with cloths, but not when you have a project with nudity unfortunately, otherwise, rendering and shading is really nice in blender and bastionilab.

erikals
11-12-2018, 04:10 PM
well, kinda bad news at the moment...

Manuel Bastioni to discontinue Manuel Bastioni Lab
http://www.cgchannel.com/2018/11/manuel-bastioni-to-discontinue-manuel-bastioni-lab


On 31 October 2018, Bastioni launched a scheme to support future development of the software by selling [Blender] add-on assets, but withdrew it a week later, saying that contributions had been “negligible”.

“The roadmap for version 1.7 is gigantic and would require an incredible effort and motivation,” he wrote. “Unfortunately, it seems that nobody cares about supporting the lab.”

“A [tool like this] cannot survive without a community that supports it. The lab project stops today.”

calilifestyle
11-12-2018, 06:17 PM
It says "without community support." i take i they mean Donations right. They should just make a paid version.

erikals
11-12-2018, 06:58 PM
Yes.
hopefully it gets picked up soon.

ConjureBunny
11-12-2018, 11:45 PM
First off, those are insanely high quality models.

Digging through the notes there, apparently he posted the link on Facebook a week ago, and didn't get a massive response. So he's shutting it down now.

That sucks, but I think it's probably because he posted it from his company account, and Facebook doesn't let those links go out organically to that many people. Plus, the post had a link to his website. Facebook hates that, and penalizes your posts when you do that.

What he saw as people ignoring him was more likely Facebook wanting him to pay to boost his reach.

...which is really sad, since he removed the page for people to pay him, so I'm not sure what he expects people to do now.

I pay for stuff I use all the time. I'm sure his users would, too. Those are some top notch models!

-Chilton

erikals
11-13-2018, 04:30 AM
Blender should support him, not sure why they don't... :/

ConjureBunny
11-13-2018, 05:46 AM
Blender should support him, not sure why they don't... :/

It's possible they just didn't know about it until this week. I get the feeling it was a matter of poor marketing, and not user apathy, that lead to his situation.

safetyman
11-19-2018, 10:09 AM
The feeling over at Blender Artists is that Manuel didn't market the addon very well and that he didn't seek financial help outside of FB and his own website. Most folks didn't know about the donation option even though a lot of folks (including me) had asked about when he would set that up. I'm extremely down about this tool being discontinued. Here is a render in tribute:

143384

prometheus
11-19-2018, 12:40 PM
a pity, personally I think the devolopment phase never took off enough, and that goes for Make human as well as the bastioni lab, I think it would have needed a couple of more iterations to elevate it to another level of interest.
Canīt blame him though for shutting down... if it takes too much time and effort without getting any payback value for it.

So not sure where to go with what we already have with make human and bastioni lab, maybe drop the usage completely and instead focus on Daz, which I suspect will not shut down in development in any near time.