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zapper1998
06-29-2018, 05:54 PM
I built a in lightwave.
A person wants to buy it.
What do i need to do so they will not resell or redistribute the model?
Is there anything i can do?

Mike

jwiede
06-29-2018, 07:37 PM
Your ability to protect the IP of a model is kind of limited. You can put hidden watermarks into the textures, or steganographically sign them somehow, but it's actually quite difficult to embed info in the geometry itself which won't just be stripped by conversion.

One thing you can do is put hidden "internal geometry" at very, very small scale into it somewhere out of sight, intended to be a unique "signature" that the model is yours. Then if you find the model on other sites or such, you can reference that hidden geometry (if still present, it's a fairly easy method to defeat). Another variant is to modify the poly flow in some out of the way area (and in a manner that isn't visually obvious, impacts deformation if relevant, etc.) in a fairly unique/atypical manner, again to use as a "signature" -- this too is a fairly easy method to defeat.

A slightly different approach would be to simultaneously put the item for sale at a site like TurboSquid, in order to establish in public view that the model is indeed your own IP. If the customer subsequently tried to claim it, you would be able to indicate significant overlap between the geometry of the TurboSquid model and their model as indication it was either a copy of your IP or directly derived from your IP. From a legal standpoint, this is a fairly solid option, combined with proper contract with customer stating they have no resale/redistribution rights, and non-exclusive use rights.

As I said, due to the way many of the older "standard" formats are constructed, there is little you can do currently to truly "sign" or mark the geometry data in a unique manner, and ensure that info remains across format conversions, etc.

Hope this helps! If I can help further on this, please feel free to reach out via PM or here.

zapper1998
06-29-2018, 08:06 PM
thank you

mike

vncnt
06-30-2018, 02:05 AM
You could write a request for a new feature to encrypt the LWO file + add an additional data block to the LWO file with meta data.

The meta data could be used and unlocked in Modeler and Layout by an internal key and an external key that has been tied to dongle IDīs.

The meta data could include copyrights information, contact info, and the permissions for copy/paste, rendering, loading, saving, ...

Perhaps not suitable for using models in 3rd party applications.
Maybe not 100% perfect but it would improve protection.

rustythe1
06-30-2018, 03:27 AM
yea, its now almost impossible to stop people doing that, most companies used to side with the creator, and I had a few times where I was easily able to get models removed, and I some cases they even handed over the profit to me as I was able to prove the EULA was through Foundation3d, but a lot of the companies have gone the other way, I recently tried to get turbosquid to take a bunch of models down, even though I have the originals (in my turbosquid account I might add!) and they basically told me where to go, and now turbosquid also own most the other 3d warehouses on the net,
so now when you sell a model you have to price it in a way that it covers those type of situations, i.e. they are buying a licence, so your best bet is to sell it through somewhere like turbosquid, and attach specific licence types to different costs, that way its down to turbosquid to stop the end user and protect you (you can set a low price for personal use, I high price for full control etc)

jwiede
06-30-2018, 03:30 AM
You could write a request for a new feature to encrypt the LWO file + add an additional data block to the LWO file with meta data.

The meta data could be used and unlocked in Modeler and Layout by an internal key and an external key that has been tied to dongle IDīs.

The meta data could include copyrights information, contact info, and the permissions for copy/paste, rendering, loading, saving, ...

Perhaps not suitable for using models in 3rd party applications.
Maybe not 100% perfect but it would improve protection.

Until the user converts it to OBJ or FBX or whatever and that metadata, which isn't supported by the other formats, is lost. Therein lies the problem, it's very difficult to ensure the metadata stays associated with the model in all cases, which is why having some kind of "in-band" signature is so important.

Marander
06-30-2018, 05:32 AM
You could provide the model with frozen subd and maybe triangulated as fbx.

zapper1998
06-30-2018, 06:59 AM
I spent well over a year making this model..

The person wants me to export it as FBX format. ok.

They want the model to make a animation for a bid for a construction job.

I told him the price of the model and scene in Question.

Have not heard back yet..

The Model, Manitowoc 31000 Crawler Crane ( $31,000,000.00 USD) for the real one.

https://www.manitowoccranes.com/en/cranes/manitowoc/crawler-cranes/lattice-boom-crawlers/31000

142050

142051

142052


I said the model and scene for $600.00 USD, Before I release it.. hmmmm



mike

erikals
06-30-2018, 10:21 AM
just model your email / Copyright Đ code into the model itself (at a microscopic level)

other than that, there is of course little that you can do,
than to hunt down 3d pages that sell objects to verify that your object is not re-sold.

however like rustythe1 says, even then, it's tricky to remove it.

shrox
06-30-2018, 10:23 AM
Scatter your name throughout the model, a letter here and there integrated into different pieces.

Markc
06-30-2018, 10:43 AM
Don't know whether this is applicable....but do manitowoc cranes have any rights to the model being their product, if you are then selling it?
Much the same way as if you built a disney character to sell, not sure about any of this 'legal stuff'.

erikals
06-30-2018, 10:46 AM
do manitowoc cranes have any rights to the model being there product, if you are then selling it?
possibly. BMW hunts down their 3D models (yes, true story)

Marander
06-30-2018, 12:36 PM
I spent well over a year making this model..
...
I said the model and scene for $600.00 USD, Before I release it.. hmmmm


Well that seems to me a too low price to ask for. Even if it's not a year of work, I would ask for $2-5k.

VermilionCat
06-30-2018, 01:56 PM
Yeah, way too low. Add one more digit.

jeric_synergy
06-30-2018, 01:58 PM
I said the model and scene for $600.00 USD, Before I release it.. hmmmm

mike
Seems very reasonable* to me. I'd "watermark" that puppy too, so if it gets released you'll know how distributed it.


*possibly "too" reasonable, but something is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, and it won't make you any money sitting on your hard drive. Of course, sell it as many times as you can. Heck, try to get some animation money out if it too: how is the "client" ::cough:: going to use it? Are they animation savvy?

zapper1998
06-30-2018, 02:00 PM
ok thanks

hmmmmmm

I can add my name in a few places that would be hard to find...
And I don't think the would look for my name in the model... Kewl idea yup

price is going to $1200.00 usd..

mike

vncnt
06-30-2018, 02:09 PM
Until the user converts it to OBJ or FBX or whatever and that metadata, which isn't supported by the other formats, is lost. Therein lies the problem, it's very difficult to ensure the metadata stays associated with the model in all cases, which is why having some kind of "in-band" signature is so important.
Converting to a different file type is the same as "Save As" or "Export". Both actions can be disabled via meta data.
Without internal key it's barely possible to decrypt the LWO file in another application.

rustythe1
06-30-2018, 05:30 PM
possibly. BMW hunts down their 3D models (yes, true story)

yes boeing too, if you try to upload a model with the name boeing in it to Shapeways or turbosquid it rejects it and then asks you to contact them as you have to register for an official licence to sell their products.

shrox
06-30-2018, 05:40 PM
ok thanks

hmmmmmm

I can add my name in a few places that would be hard to find...
And I don't think the would look for my name in the model... Kewl idea yup

price is going to $1200.00 usd..

mike

Don't assign a separate material to the hidden letters, or they'll be easy to find and remove.

jeric_synergy
06-30-2018, 06:04 PM
Converting to a different file type is the same as "Save As" or "Export". Both actions can be disabled via meta data.
Without internal key it's barely possible to decrypt the LWO file in another application.

?? Are you saying metadata can PREVENT copying, or that meta data gets erased by copying?

Anyway, saving in GEOMETRY seems more secure anyway, and as shrox points out (though it seems obvious) don't give it "Signature.surf". I think jweide's "unique mesh config" is the most secure, as it can ONLY be read by the originator.

RPSchmidt
07-02-2018, 05:51 AM
Perhaps not metadata, but a blockchain registration?

Take a look at these and see what you think.

https://www.licens3d.com/

https://www.ipchaindatabase.com/

With blockchain, you can create a historic record of your model, even down to the code, that is immutable. In that way, its provenance can be proven to code.

It's still early in the development of advanced protections for 3d IP, but this may be a worthy consideration.

I actually just sent an email to Turbosquid legal to see what their stance on this would be. I will update with their response (if any).

The other consideration is to include your contract with the purchaser stipulating the exact use of the model and providing you with indeminification in the event that the model is modified, released, or resold.

Also, make sure that no one else has any potential right to your work. That may mean getting a legal release from Manitowoc. That can be something as simple as an email stating that you created a 3d model of their crane and do they have any issues with you selling the model. If they reply in the affirmative, include that in the blockchain database as well.

If you include all of that pertinent information in the blockchain, you are about as secure as you can get.

zapper1998
07-02-2018, 07:49 PM
Perhaps not metadata, but a blockchain registration?

Take a look at these and see what you think.

https://www.licens3d.com/

https://www.ipchaindatabase.com/



Thanks for the info

All the models are LWO and LWS format do those support that format
I read the info just could not see what software programs other than Cad stuff supported
interesting.

Mike

Gungho3D
07-03-2018, 02:26 AM
What do i need to do so they will not resell or redistribute the model?
Yeah valid question.

To my mind, creating a model for someone else is similar to writing source code and handing it over to a client - that's the basic framework. The one extra layer you have with writing code is that you may only be contracted to develop an application, which you then pass on to the client as a compiled set of files which they install on their machines ... if that's what you've agreed to contractually (yep, been there, done that).

However, having the option to "lock" your model or 3D assets away from being copied / modded / resold etc is not, to my mind, available to us in any meaningful sense ...
... and hence, from the get-go, you should be thinking this through clearly and quoting an end price accordingly.

E.g. some clients may want you to create a series of 3D assets, for which they wish to retain full IP control (meaning that you are barred from re-selling/re-using the supplied assets in any way). If that is the case, my suggestion is don't just charge for your "time" only - factor in the ongoing value (to the client) of what you are being asked to create and supply. Bottom line is: in such a case you are being asked to "renounce" any further profitable use of what you have just invested heaps of effort in, so charge accordingly.

However, however ... you may be able to work out an agreement with future clients regarding what they allow you to do with the 3D assets you are creating after final delivery. In this case, also before you slap down the very first polygon (ok, maybe I should say "your first sub-d surface"), have it clear in your mind in real world terms as to the potential extended value (i.e further sales / re-use) of what you are being asked to create and supply - meaning, the job may be so niche that, realistically, you may never be able to re-sell / re-use your creation. Or, the job is so sweet that you are going to make a million bucks as every man and his dog flocks to your site begging to throw money at you and your product. The point is: quote an end price with the wisdom of foresight.

Ok, so there is one final thing: you may simply enjoy the focus of a project, some real world application of skill and craftsmanship, and the $$ aspect may be secondary. In that case have a blast, don't get too stressed, and rack it up as a means for increasing your portfolio ...

vncnt
07-03-2018, 08:12 AM
?? Are you saying metadata can PREVENT copying, or that meta data gets erased by copying?

Anyway, saving in GEOMETRY seems more secure anyway, and as shrox points out (though it seems obvious) don't give it "Signature.surf". I think jweide's "unique mesh config" is the most secure, as it can ONLY be read by the originator.

No. The metadata itself cannot prevent copying.
Only Lightwave can prevent copying an encrypted LWO file to a different file format and/or copy it to the clipboard, based on an list of trusted dongle idīs (or s/w equivalent) and their permissions inside the encrypted LWO file.
The permissions can be granted or refused in Modeler, Layout, and ScreamerNet.

"New users" who are unable to open the object can register their dongle id for the object by e-mail. After payment you could send them their personal key that works only with their dongle id, and enables them to update the permissions list in the LWO file.

I consider the permissions list as (encrypted) metadata but you could also add contact info, an owner signature, an image, a low-resolution preview 3D model, historical usage, etc.

The metadata is simply a datablock, somewhere in the LWO file, that has no other functional meaning to the 3D object.

Modifying the LWO file with a text editor is useless.
A simple file copy (by the OS) is still possible but you would need a listed dongle id to use the LWO file in Lightwave.

The only disadvantage is that you canīt use the encrypted LWO file in other applications unless the system is open to other vendors.

Newtek could set an interesting new standard here.

shrox
07-03-2018, 08:24 AM
Could simply copy and paste from one LW modeler window to another defeat any copy protections?

zapper1998
07-03-2018, 09:56 AM
wow
hmmmmmm
thanks

vncnt
07-03-2018, 11:26 AM
It depends on the implementation.

Newtek could disable the Copy command in Modeler, based on permissions.
If permissions allow Copy/Paste but the target application does not support the new LWO format (incl. Encryption and protection management) then Paste could not continue because of incompatible formats.

Older versions of Lightwave will never recognize newer versions of LWO files.

raymondtrace
07-03-2018, 01:29 PM
The discussion of DRM 3D object files seems pretty futile in a world where we don't even have reasonable DRM for 2D image files. I haven't touched either in years: do Maya & Max have this ability? The protection of 3D object file data seems contrary to the greater need of interoperability. In the proposed scenario, users may be prone to copy/export the data to another format that is not restricted.

The idea of including traces within the geometry requires the expense of vigilance on 3D marketplaces that might pirate your work. Do you make more money by creating more models or by monitoring the few models you've already published? And how do you prove ownership with the identifying "bug" in the geometry if your stolen model is only presented as a render?

There is already a "Commentary Text" portion of the LWO format (LWO3, LWO2), which could allow the inclusion of metadata like author and license info. A mildly-clever developer could create a plugin that reads/writes author information to this area. While it wouldn't offer any secured usage, it would be a good step toward communicating usage rights. Most copyright abuse is likely due to ignorance. I'm sure I'm not alone in struggling to distinguish the acquired models in my library that I can use for royalty-free commercial work and those that I can only use for personal experimentation.


Is there anything i can do?

Not really, beyond specifying the license and consequences for violation.

vncnt
07-03-2018, 02:47 PM
The discussion of DRM 3D object files seems pretty futile in a world where we don't even have reasonable DRM for 2D image files.
2D image files are totaly different from 3D formats. You canīt simply PrintScreen your 3D model to Copy/Paste the model. Even if users would be able to directly access GPU memory, there are many ways to mark or criple the 3D objects in GPU memory.

Newtek owns the format of LWO and owns the native application that produces/uses it. That could make some issues slightly easier to solve. Other applications will not be able to bypass the encryption easily if the decryption key is private and requires a dongle id.


I haven't touched either in years: do Maya & Max have this ability? The protection of 3D object file data seems contrary to the greater need of interoperability.
Thatīs why itīs better to have a widely accepted method.

Being the first to offer DRM may sound like suicide but Iīm sure many companies would be interested to protect their assets in a similar way.


In the proposed scenario, users may be prone to copy/export the data to another format that is not restricted.
Any appliciation is able to disable their support for Copy/Paste so copy/export/render/re-rig can be safely restricted by the application that is able to decrypt the LWO file.
Even when export is allowed, Lightwave could still add hidden markers to the exported file in a similar way phase shifting is sometimes added to music on YouTube.

If export is absolutely needed, the 3D industry should recognize the need to cooperate and protect 3D content to a certain degree and make DRM available for many more formats.

The 3D software that supports DRM could improve interest.

jwiede
07-03-2018, 03:32 PM
I'll just say I think you're underestimating the internal Lightwave changes needed, both in implementing such a system, and in comprehensively modifying all relevant code to ensure the permissions are followed (which is a huge undertaking, there's not really existing abstraction of access control in the manner needed).

What you're suggesting would require modification of a significant percentage of existing Lightwave app code (read as: serious risk of introducing bugs), as well as serious changes to many SDK APIs. Such PKI-based schemes also implicitly require notable attestation and revocation infrastructure, requiring more development/testing/etc. (difficult to do properly without security development expertise) as well as ongoing support and maintenance efforts.

Could it be done? Absolutely. Is any RoI likely to offset the risk and effort required? I suspect not.

vncnt
07-04-2018, 07:04 AM
Iīm afraid I havenīt made an estimation of the work involved.
The concept that Iīve described is merely a sketch of an idea, trying to answer the most important question: "is this feasible at all?".

There is no need to implement all features at once.
My personal preferred implementation method of software changes is almost always low key initially.

Meta data editing, data collection, situation detection, status report and intended actions can be implemented without harming any functionality.
Destructive procedures (like encrypting the LWO file or disable Save/Export/Render actions) can be activated at a later stage.
There is no need to lock the program because of copyrights infringement while testing. A log file would do nicely. A "beta" mode maybe.

But most of all this is needed: the recognition that someone has to do something to prevent copyrights infringement.
DRM is for their/our own good.

jeric_synergy
07-04-2018, 08:46 AM
There's a million things I'd rather they fix and/or implement before DRM.