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View Full Version : Modeling and Nimating in VR, is this the future for DCC?



robertoortiz
05-25-2018, 05:44 AM
How do you guys feel about all the innovation that seem to coming down the pipe from VR tools?
But Before we start I want to share some videos to help the conversation:
Sculpting a house with MasterpieceVR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oX_spkhAgk

Animate in Quill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUUgxsZ9tk

and the result is that even non animators like concept artist Goro Fujita is doing incredible work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE50C3YQHYI

I am looking forward to your comments.

Rob Note: moderator could you fix my spelling mistake in the title? thanks.

Dillon
05-25-2018, 09:36 AM
Unequivically, yes, it is.

I can't model for **** when working with LW … but when I'm modeling in VR, it's liberating.

The next step of integration of VR for animation is using the controllers to control IK handles in real time. Eventually, we'll be able to animate our characters by physically acting out their motions in front of our computers. Of course, that's done with expensive / complicated motion capture systems now, but I'm expecting this to change very soon. This type of motion capture will become a plug and play type feature pretty soon.

Asticles
05-25-2018, 10:16 AM
I cannot think of having 8 hours a day a screen one inch away from my eyes.

Dillon
05-25-2018, 01:44 PM
Not quite how it works...


I cannot think of having 8 hours a day a screen one inch away from my eyes.

Zerowaitstate
05-25-2018, 06:04 PM
I have found this forum suprisingly resistive to inovation in the VR Space, current 3D apps with 20 yrs to mature have such granular contorll over every thing, . I have seen LW grow from the amiga running on motorla 68000 to its current incarnation. VR construction tools are in thier nacent state.

VR /AR will be the final format for computing in my opinion, while VR has been around for some time the cost has been the primary barrier.

As this has dropped the the general consumer has entered the market.

We are still seveal years away from main stream. I have comfortbly spent several hour session with the current tech

There are many area's that research needs to move forward on. Challenges such as Vergance accomodation, haptics , propper eye traciking along with foverated rendering,even locomotion is a challenge etc.

Our ever deeper understanding of our perceptual systems will get us there. i think when we are dealing with real time light fields it will be a tottally comfortable experience.

Dillon
05-26-2018, 08:59 AM
Agree 1000% !

It's bizarre that the atmosphere here is against VR/AR. Totally bizarre. It's the inevitable future. And it's arriving NOW.



I have found this forum suprisingly resistive to inovation in the VR Space, current 3D apps with 20 yrs to mature have such granular contorll over every thing, . I have seen LW grow from the amiga running on motorla 68000 to its current incarnation. VR construction tools are in thier nacent state.

VR /AR will be the final format for computing in my opinion, while VR has been around for some time the cost has been the primary barrier.

As this has dropped the the general consumer has entered the market.

We are still seveal years away from main stream. I have comfortbly spent several hour session with the current tech

There are many area's that research needs to move forward on. Challenges such as Vergance accomodation, haptics , propper eye traciking along with foverated rendering,even locomotion is a challenge etc.

Our ever deeper understanding of our perceptual systems will get us there. i think when we are dealing with real time light fields it will be a tottally comfortable experience.

gerry_g
05-26-2018, 09:17 AM
I think being able to model in genuine 3D space would be very cool, but like most every one else I balk at the thought of being strapped into a set of goggles and waving my arms around for eight hours at a time, common sense tells you this totally sucks, if you want to spend half your life in physio for back complaints and the other half being diagnosed for eye trouble this is absolutely the way to go. Right now I see this as future in the way that way that TV dinners will replace real food.

SBowie
05-26-2018, 10:03 AM
It's bizarre that the atmosphere here is against VR/AR.I think there may be various factors at play, here, one of which I suspect is age.

Generalizing a bit (which will always be wrong in some cases), I'd expect a little less excitement about modeling in VR from those with a bit more gray hair. I can think of a number of reasons for this, some physical, others inertial, still others perhaps personal preference or even a certain skepticism that comes with experience (how many times over the years have you gray beards been told that 3D movies were the next big thing, that it would be different this time, and that this changes everything ... and, at this moment and given the option, which version of the movie did you view?)

On the preference aspect, I think there's a fundamental difference between types of individuals who lean towards a 'sculpting' paradigm over one that is more akin to 'building' a model, element by element, poly by poly, point by point (not to suggest the latter can't be done in VR, but that it more naturally excels in the former approach).

Dillon
05-26-2018, 02:58 PM
Hi Steve,

Thank you for your input! I agree, I suspect age has something to do with it. And I say that as a 46 year old. Been tinkering with digital imagery since the beginning (1984).

As for your comment about modeling still being superior on a point by point / polygon by polygon basis, I ask you to check out some of the programs in VR that give you many different ways to model... including Gravity Sketch.

VR is changing the way content creation is happening, and I really do hope you guys at NewTek are taking a serious look at this for LW. I implore you to take a hard look at RED / LEIA's H4V CODEC. Holographic video is here!


I think there may be various factors at play, here, one of which I suspect is age.

Generalizing a bit (which will always be wrong in some cases), I'd expect a little less excitement about modeling in VR from those with a bit more gray hair. I can think of a number of reasons for this, some physical, others inertial, still others perhaps personal preference or even a certain skepticism that comes with experience (how many times over the years have you gray beards been told that 3D movies were the next big thing, that it would be different this time, and that this changes everything ... and, at this moment and given the option, which version of the movie did you view?)

On the preference aspect, I think there's a fundamental difference between types of individuals who lean towards a 'sculpting' paradigm over one that is more akin to 'building' a model, element by element, poly by poly, point by point (not to suggest the latter can't be done in VR, but that it more naturally excels in the former approach).

jwiede
05-26-2018, 05:39 PM
I think being able to model in genuine 3D space would be very cool, but like most every one else I balk at the thought of being strapped into a set of goggles and waving my arms around for eight hours at a time, common sense tells you this totally sucks, if you want to spend half your life in physio for back complaints and the other half being diagnosed for eye trouble this is absolutely the way to go. Right now I see this as future in the way that way that TV dinners will replace real food.

Amen. I believe there's real potential in VR/AR, but we're nowhere near there yet, optics are still a good 5-10yrs out from having the kind of extremely lightweight high-res/high-framerate HMD needed for extended use professionally. I've used a few "professional-quality" options, Hololens, Vive, and Oculus, and none are really a great experience for long-term usage. Hololens tech is among the most-advanced optics, currently (last thing I worked on at MS, alas can't really say much more), and it's a great starting-point, but there's still a ways to go.

Untethered is definitely part of the magic recipe, using a Hololens is VERY different experience (superior, IMO) from using, say, a Vive or Oculus. Just about everyone who tries one acknowledges the day-over-night improvement it presents to tethered HMDs. However, getting adequate connectivity for the kind of high-res work needed (along with untethered CPU & GPU power, battery life, etc.) remains a difficult problem even now. Hololens is horribly expensive, because it IS so cutting-edge. However, in terms of UX intentions I think it's closer than ANY tethered options w.r.t. making extended use scenarios practical.

I've been a ardent VR/AR supporter for decades. I had (still have, in storage) both Cybervision and IOglasses units, have Oculus (DK1), even had a current-gen Oculus but took it back and plan to get a Vive instead (for gaming). Unfortunately, I'll also be the first to admit, they all have significant issues that seriously block extended use, even the very newest of the current generation. It's painfully obvious the tech isn't yet up to providing an adequate UX. The current gen is MUCH closer than the prior generation (IOglasses & Cybervision), but still much too heavy. Also, the tethering and always-opaque optics make them all but unworkable for use in business/professional environments, both for pratical UX as well as safety reasons.

Will it happen? Sure, eventually, because ultimately, working on 3D _in_ 3D is superior to working on it in 2D. Is that "eventually" going to occur in the next few years? Almost certainly not, unless some really amazing leaps forward occur in battery, wireless communication, and optical materials technologies. What constitutes the "practical cutting edge" in those areas now just isn't adequate to the task... yet.

shrox
05-26-2018, 06:08 PM
Third ride in VR for me, started with 320x240 for each eye in the late 80's...then commercial mall arcade 640x480 set-ups in the 90's, and now Oculus. I finally feel good about it's staying power.

jwiede
05-26-2018, 06:25 PM
Third ride in VR for me, started with 320x240 for each eye in the late 80's...then commercial mall arcade 640x480 set-ups in the 90's, and now Oculus. I finally feel good about it's staying power.

Hehe, I didn't see value in giving my full history, but yeah, I've been using it for multiple generations before IOglasses gen as well.

I think the first really positive VR experience I had happened at a commercial kiosk in King of Prussia mall in PA (while working at Commodore on Amiga), before that I can recall one or two but they were mostly novelties before that. Heck even the kiosk was a novelty really, paid $10 or $20 a session for something like 3-5 mins of a game in VR hooked up to a harness in a giant rollerball-y thing, with tethered HMD that weighed a TON and made the Cybervision HMD look stylish. ;D

VR is like "internet television" used to be (still is, kinda), it's an idea/tech that keeps coming up every few years in search of consumer acceptance, and thus far, few takers. The latest gen has more takers than ever before, no question, but still relatively few in the "big picture" consumer view.

SBowie
05-26-2018, 06:44 PM
This is the first one I remember: http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/virtuality.html

shrox
05-26-2018, 06:48 PM
This is the first one I remember: http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/virtuality.html

That's the one! The hip bruiser...

jwiede
05-26-2018, 07:06 PM
The one I'm thinking of had a similar HMD, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't running on Amiga hardware. The "stand"/harness/etc. looked a bit different as well, IIRC. I'll see if I can find any details about the kiosks in the deep interwebs when I get spare time.

Interesting find about Virtuality, nonetheless, I'd forgotten about them.

pming
05-28-2018, 06:07 PM
Hiya!

My biggest hang-up that I have with VR is that developers, overall, are still in the "it's a computer program to do X" mentality. They are "designing in computer code", and not "designing in reality". What do I mean? Hmmm...

Ok. What I want in a "VR sculpting/modeling Program" is I put on my Oculus (as an example) and fire up "My Real-Feeling 3D Sculpting and Modeling Environment" program. I then choose a "location" for my sculpting. I choose a small, 15' x 15' x 8' wooden cabin room...with wooden log walls, wood floor, wood beams over head, and nice, soft, warm (but bright) lighting. Then I take a step or two back from the center of the room. I then put on my "VR Gloves". GLOVES...not controllers! This is a MAJOR hang-up for me. Then I point at the center of the room's floor and wait a couple seconds. POOF! a chunk of floating clay is now hovering a couple feet from the ground. Then I point to the right side of me, wait a couple seconds, and then a wooden table appears. I go through this process...pointing, waiting a second or two and basically "selecting" all the tools I want to use; bowl of water, various cloths, couple sculpting 'chissels' and whatnot (I'm not a real clay sculpter, could you tell? ;) ). Anyway, after doing this, I "Save" the location. Now it's available to me anytime I want to VR Sculpt. I could have different locations...a flat, grey plane, a series of grassy, rolling hills as far as the eye can see, or a dark, spooky, horror-like surgery room. I could have these "locations" fit with whatever I felt like sculpting at the time.

Anyway...remember the "VR Gloves"? Those are important. I want to "pick them up" off my virtual table and use them on my virtual clay. I want to put them down, then just use my hands to shape the clay like a 'real' artist. I want to turn, grab a hunk of new clay, turn back to my main sculpt and slap it on with my VR gloved hand.

That's what I'm waiting for.

Right now, watching those video's, all I was thinking of was "Wow...the pain in the butt of having to use controllers to push buttons on them, point a virtual lazer at something, push another button, point at a floating computer menu, etc, etc, etc...would give me a headache". VR modeling is still suck in the "computer program...but in VR!" stage of development. They haven't been able to find an acceptable way to make sculpting in VR feel/seem like sculpting in RL; we still rely on "computer code" to do something in stead of just moving our hand over something and 'feeling it out'. Eventually, in another 30 years or so, I'm sure we'll have a means to get actual physical sensations processed through our VR "gear" (gloves, a suit maybe, footwear, etc).

Ok. That's my dream. Cool stuff coming out, to be sure, but I'm one of those "Nope...not good enough yet" overly-demanding types. ;)

hrgiger
05-28-2018, 07:10 PM
Although I'm not really into VR, another DCC app will be coming out with its first VR implementation within another month or so. Won't be quite for modeling yet but more for scene layout initially.

I'd mention which app, but people whine here when I do.

hrgiger
06-01-2018, 01:31 PM
Kanova live stream is on


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2-CD1T8Eqg&feature=youtu.be

zamakli
06-05-2018, 03:23 AM
VR is in a really bad state. There more I watch these kind of videos the more I realize that we are very far from a working VR solution both for content creators and end consumers.

hrgiger
06-05-2018, 06:14 AM
I actually got to try Kanova on the vive this weekend. It was a very interesting experience and I see why some people like it. But it won’t be replacing the desktop experience anytime soon.

Dillon
06-05-2018, 09:10 AM
Do you HAVE a rift or vive? Your statement smacks of sheer ignorance.

The tools to create in VR are actually quite stunning at the moment, and are only getting better. There are already thousands of creators using VR to create awesome art.




VR is in a really bad state. There more I watch these kind of videos the more I realize that we are very far from a working VR solution both for content creators and end consumers.

- - - Updated - - -

Try out Unreal Engine's version of working in VR. I absolutely love it.


I actually got to try Kanova on the vive this weekend. It was a very interesting experience and I see why some people like it. But it won’t be replacing the desktop experience anytime soon.

SBowie
06-05-2018, 09:51 AM
Do you HAVE a rift or vive? Your statement smacks of sheer ignorance.This topic, like many things, involves some very subjective aspects. Let's not dial up the invective and make it personal, please.

Dillon
06-05-2018, 10:00 AM
You're correct, this is subjective. But I do think people need to consider their words. He spoke as if he had authority in the field of VR - I don't think people should be commenting on things they don't really know much about, or have experience with.

Which is why my first sentence was a question - does he HAVE one? If he did, then his subjective POV would have a lot more credence, than if he didn't.

But I digress. Is NewTek going to join the VR revolution? ;)


This topic, like many things, involves some very subjective aspects. Let's not dial up the invective and make it personal, please.

raymondtrace
06-05-2018, 10:50 AM
Do you HAVE a rift or vive?...

No. I don't. Neither do many others. You've just explained why VR is in its infancy. Over 2 decades ago we had different ideas about what VR means. We'll have that same confusion in the next decade.


...The tools to create in VR are actually quite stunning at the moment, and are only getting better. There are already thousands of creators using VR to create awesome art...

If we're sincerely trying to offer constructive conversation, links to examples would be useful. You don't counter ignorance by failing to educate.

The problem with VR, as you illustrated, is access to hardware. This is more than just an issue with the ability to have a control in your hand or to strap something to your noggin. There is a real physiological barrier for some to use VR. Some may enjoy a novelty experience for a short period of time but prolonged involvement can be physically taxing.

Dillon
06-05-2018, 11:05 AM
Hmm, my point wasn't to educate, but to point out that those who have no experience shouldn't be trying to. Or at least temper their words so they don't portray themselves as experts, when they have no experience.

I'll leave my educating ways for another thread.

There really is no point in commenting on something you don't have experience with. Otherwise, it's hot air with no content, and it wastes others' time who are browsing through threads looking for real content.

Case in point - a few people don't like working in the VR space. There are thousands of VR artists who spend hours every day working in VR without the complaint you just stated in your last paragraph.


No. I don't. Neither do many others. You've just explained why VR is in its infancy. Over 2 decades ago we had different ideas about what VR means. We'll have that same confusion in the next decade.



If we're sincerely trying to offer constructive conversation, links to examples would be useful. You don't counter ignorance by failing to educate.

The problem with VR, as you illustrated, is access to hardware. This is more than just an issue with the ability to have a control in your hand or to strap something to your noggin. There is a real physiological barrier for some to use VR. Some may enjoy a novelty experience for a short period of time but prolonged involvement can be physically taxing.

raymondtrace
06-05-2018, 11:16 AM
Hmm, my point wasn't to educate, but to point out that those who have no experience shouldn't be trying to...

There's the pickle. How does anyone know you have experience and should have any of our attention ...if you don't have the ability to explain something? Let's not cast stones.

At the very least, maybe you can explain your own comments.


Not quite how it works...

Dillon
06-05-2018, 11:18 AM
Well, I have one. Also run a VR lab at work. You'll just have to take my word for it, and do the same research I've been doing for the last 5 years.



There's the pickle. How does anyone know you have experience and should have any of our attention ...if you don't have the ability to explain something? Let's not cast stones.

At the very least, maybe you can explain your own comments.

SBowie
06-05-2018, 11:33 AM
But I do think people need to consider their words.On this we agree. :)

raymondtrace
06-05-2018, 12:57 PM
...There are thousands of VR artists who spend hours every day working in VR without the complaint...

How many breaks do they take?

https://securecdn.oculus.com/sr/oculusrift-warning-english


Take at least a 10 to 15 minute break every 30 minutes, even if you donít think you need it. Each person is different, so take more frequent and longer breaks if you feel discomfort. (pg. 7)

https://developer.oculus.com/design/latest/concepts/book-bp/?_fb_noscript=1


Safety First

If VR experiences ignore fundamental best practices, they can lead to discomfort in some people. This discomfort can be a combination of symptoms clustered around eyestrain, disorientation, and nausea. Therefore, it is important that you follow these best practices or in the alternative, solutions that you have developed to minimize discomfort.

Certain types of images are believed to be capable of triggering photosensitive seizures in a small portion of the population. The International Standards Organization has published ISO 9241-391:2016 as a standard for image content to reduce the risk of photosensitive seizures. You are responsible for reviewing the standards and literature on photosensitive seizures and image safety and designing content that conforms to these standards.

Additionally, excessive use without breaks is not recommended for developers, end-users, or the device. Please review the Health and Safety Warnings at www.oculus.com/warnings. We encourage you to review all of the Health and Safety Warnings as they may impact the development of your content.

There is no atmosphere here against VR/AR...at least not that is any different than anywhere else. VR gear manufacturers know its not for everybody, nor for any particular person all the time.

Signal to Noise
06-12-2018, 03:08 PM
I jumped into this thread to find out what "Nimating" was.

That is all.

hrgiger
06-21-2018, 03:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KfuXDOObSI

rustythe1
08-21-2018, 08:33 AM
seems mainstream VR might already be dead before it started (at least in film an cinema) the big groups just cancelled all development of cameras and technology relating to it (google, Imax) google are only going to pursue AR in a smaller capacity but not VR anymore, even from my point of view, customers were interested for a short time, then all of a sudden, nothing,