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View Full Version : The Industry seems to Be Mirroring Layout/Modeler Split System



Chernoby
05-21-2018, 02:45 PM
I know they are not exactly the same, but I just noticed this trend with the ever-increasing niche software in 3D/Game Dev, that there are basically high end layout programs. Clarisse, Katana, and Pixar USD... they are all creating the same workflow Lightwave has. An artist might model in Maya but eventually everything ends up in one of these new look dev programs. So it is the same process Lightwavers use now.

Anyhugh, I just find it interesting. This isnt even mentioning game engines that create a similar situation.

VonBon
05-21-2018, 03:51 PM
Are trying to get eaten by Trolls?

erikals
05-21-2018, 04:03 PM
not quite,

these programs are not meant to work in the same way

Modeler / Layout are Bridged

doing Motion Graphics for example in LightWave suffers from this.
modeling through camera view also suffers (still) from this workflow
detailed model tweaking in Layout is not possible

in addition, and probably the most frustrating for the programmers... > Dual Code
meaning, lots of code changes in Layout has to be corrected for in Modeler, and vice versa.

there is no benefit to Dual Code / Two completely different coded programs

porting Modeler tools to Layout would take a long time, however...
rewriting Modeler geometry engine will take a long time, so...

SBowie
05-21-2018, 04:04 PM
Are trying to get eaten by Trolls?Hehehehehe.

Chernoby
05-21-2018, 06:43 PM
Are trying to get eaten by Trolls?

Lol! I’m serious! I stand by this observation! Again, it is not exactly tge same thing. But the workflow IS similar... it just is. I’m going down with this ship!

hrgiger
05-21-2018, 07:04 PM
Sorry but not the same at all. While working in any of these other apps where you're modeling, you still have direct access to cameras, lighting, rendering, and animation and also working likely in a non-destructive environment which will allow you to make changes to the model if you find for whatever reason your model isn't working further down the pipeline.

No one out there is looking at LW and thinking, man, I wish we had less options like that.

Chernoby
05-21-2018, 07:10 PM
Sorry but not the same at all. While working in any of these other apps where you're modeling, you still have direct access to cameras, lighting, rendering, and animation and also working likely in a non-destructive environment which will allow you to make changes to the model if you find for whatever reason your model isn't working further down the pipeline.

No one out there is looking at LW and thinking, man, I wish we had less options like that.

My ENTIRE point is in the look dev programs: Clarisse, Pixar USD, etc. you DO NOT have access to modeling or texturing. They are a layout programs only. They handle massive amounts of geometry and instances that are already created. They are only used for lighting, shading, and pre-compositing. Which is very similar to LW. THAT is my point.

jeric_synergy
05-21-2018, 07:19 PM
But the workflow IS similar... it just is. I’m going down with this ship!
I admire your commitment. :D

Revanto
05-21-2018, 07:28 PM
Even though Modeler and Layout can be bridged, they can still be used separately. I hate the hub and prefer to use both programs seperately (IE unbridged). It's also a matter of mindset for me so I have my mental engine set to 'model' mode when I am in Modeller then texture, light, animate, etc... mode when in Layout. For me it's more efficient this way but that's just me.

Revanto :p

jay3d
05-21-2018, 07:32 PM
porting Modeler tools to Layout would take a long time

Not quite true actually :D I have a prototype modeling plugin for LW that works just like Edit Poly/Mesh modifier in 3dsmax in Layout

Chris S. (Fez)
05-21-2018, 08:17 PM
Not quite true actually :D I have a prototype modeling plugin for LW that works just like Edit Poly/Mesh modifier in 3dsmax in Layout

I use Edit Poly all the time to make non-destructive edits in Max. Would love to see this in Layout. It would also be great to add nondestructive modifiers such as the Shell modifier in Max...and then add another Edit Poly modifier on top.

Relax Modifier
Push Modifier
Noise modifier

Etc.

A Subdivision modifier that can be stacked so we can smooth out displacements and such.

samurai_x
05-21-2018, 08:17 PM
Clarisse, Katana, and Pixar USD are niche applications in an already niche segment of CG.
Maybe less than 10% uses these appz globally...like lightwave. :D
Majority of studios need a cohesive and generalist app and that's where the top 3 software comes in c4d, max, maya.

Chernoby
05-21-2018, 08:40 PM
Clarisse, Katana, and Pixar USD are niche applications in an already niche segment of CG.
Maybe less than 10% uses these appz globally...like lightwave. :D
Majority of studios need a cohesive and generalist app and that's where the top 3 software comes in c4d, max, maya.

That 10% is the high end studios. So... yeah... the high end CG studios lead the way... and set the standards adopted in ensuing years. So I agree, high end studios use niche look dev programs for final layout and rendering... which is similar to LW layout.

samurai_x
05-21-2018, 10:46 PM
That 10% is the high end studios. So... yeah... the high end CG studios lead the way... and set the standards adopted in ensuing years. So I agree, high end studios use niche look dev programs for final layout and rendering... which is similar to LW layout.

Took more than 10 years before some of these standards trickle down the typical 20 man studios.
Many specialized appz have been bought and integrated into one cohesive app. Mudbox, arnold, etc, people don't really want to deal with I/O stuff. You want to export stuff to octane standalone to work? lol

Mixed pipelines actually have divisions or teams that specialize in one core app and don't usually mix and match. Like no blender in maya pipelines because that's just bothering maya people working on their stuff. I remember when there was an XSI team in one of the game facilities I worked at. Lol. Disintegrated.

Marander
05-21-2018, 11:22 PM
Not quite true actually :D I have a prototype modeling plugin for LW that works just like Edit Poly/Mesh modifier in 3dsmax in Layout

That's interesting!

Does your prototype plugin allow 1) select individual points/edges/polys 2) editing existing and 3) creating new geometry? (Or does the SDK allow to do so?)

If that's the case, it's the best news for LW I can imagine.

To me there is not a ton of special modeling tools required in Layout: (Single and Loop) Selection, Transform, Bevel and Loop Cut / Knife is sufficient for most tasks. Maybe something like a PolyPen but not easy to do that right I guess.

Also great would be the possibility to enable SubD for meshes in Layout. The rest can be done in Modeler or other applications.

samurai_x
05-22-2018, 12:05 AM
That's interesting!

Does your prototype plugin allow 1) select individual points/edges/polys 2) editing existing and 3) creating new geometry? (Or does the SDK allow to do so?)

If that's the case, it's the best news for LW I can imagine.

To me there is not a ton of special modeling tools required in Layout: (Single and Loop) Selection, Transform, Bevel and Loop Cut / Knife is sufficient for most tasks. Maybe something like a PolyPen but not easy to do that right I guess.

Also great would be the possibility to enable SubD for meshes in Layout. The rest can be done in Modeler or other applications.

Joe Alter that did shave and haircut plugin suggested something similar for layout before.
A mesh editing node.

So it would be something like an object modifier in layout that would probably pop out a modelling tool interface similar to how the surface node editor pops out. No different to how you can detach a tab in modo with all the modelling tools there.
No need for drastic UI changes because its a node/modifier.

I don't know why the previous teams couldn't add modelling tools in layout since lw 7. More than 15 years?

Ztreem
05-22-2018, 12:41 AM
That 10% is the high end studios. So... yeah... the high end CG studios lead the way... and set the standards adopted in ensuing years. So I agree, high end studios use niche look dev programs for final layout and rendering... which is similar to LW layout.

No, the high end cg studios donít lead the way. They work in a completly different world from small and indie studios. If an indie studio would do it exactly as Pixar it would go out of business right away. Jumping between apps is not the solution for fast workflows itís just the way it is as no app can make everything and do it good. Why do you think they add modeling to unity? So big AAA studios can skip Maya? No, so indie developer can make models directly in unity and save time jumping back and forth. Big companys/studios have the man power and budget to jump around between apps, indies donít.

Skywatcher_NT
05-22-2018, 03:14 AM
That's interesting!

Also great would be the possibility to enable SubD for meshes in Layout.

You can do that since long as I can remember ;)

Marander
05-22-2018, 04:58 AM
As far as I know enabling SubD in the Layout Modifier Stack only works if the model is prepared for SubD (Tab key) in Modeler, or not?

Of course I can enable it but as long as there is no LWO with a SubD mesh, nothing happens in Layout.

Can I load a model from another app (fbx/ obj) and apply SubD in Layout?

Skywatcher_NT
05-22-2018, 05:10 AM
Why don't you just load in a model (fbx/obj) and see for yourself ;)
Yes, it works.

Chernoby
05-22-2018, 08:35 AM
No, the high end cg studios donít lead the way. They work in a completly different world from small and indie studios. If an indie studio would do it exactly as Pixar it would go out of business right away. Jumping between apps is not the solution for fast workflows itís just the way it is as no app can make everything and do it good. Why do you think they add modeling to unity? So big AAA studios can skip Maya? No, so indie developer can make models directly in unity and save time jumping back and forth. Big companys/studios have the man power and budget to jump around between apps, indies donít.

If youíre saying small studios do not go between apps like Maya, Houdini, ZBrush, 3D Coat, Terragen, Tree Editor, Substance Painter, etc... then I dont know where to go from here bc it is absolutely not reality.

Marander
05-22-2018, 09:35 AM
Why don't you just load in a model (fbx/obj) and see for yourself ;)
Yes, it works.

I did and it doesn't work for me, so please help me out here...

(and this is not completely off-topic, because fbx import / export is important for working cross-app)

I create an fbx file in one application, export it with SubD and import / load in LW.

1) I have VERY limited FBX import options, to import SubD isn't even there (see screenshot compared to the other app).
2) Why on earth do I have to decide to Load Scene, Load Object or Import FBX, all I want is to load an FBX file (and the result is different, depending if there's a bone structure in the imported file)
3) No SubD is loaded, the Subdivision Modifier in the Modifier Stack is active an nothing happens

Importing the same FBX object of course loads as expected with the appropriate SubD Generator active in the other application.

I probably do something wrong... can somebody help me here?

141810

jeric_synergy
05-22-2018, 10:17 AM
FWIW: Just installed 18.0.4. To examine this issue, I Searched for SETSUBPATCH and found it, unassigned, in the Menu Editor. I gave it a place in the modeler tab (of Layout). Created, in Layout, a Cube.

When I hit "Set Subpatch", I get this:

141812

However, TOGGLE SUBPATCH works.

Just throwing this into the stew: I've probably misunderstood what Set Subpatch does in the first place.

Ztreem
05-22-2018, 12:08 PM
I did and it doesn't work for me, so please help me out here...

(and this is not completely off-topic, because fbx import / export is important for working cross-app)

I create an fbx file in one application, export it with SubD and import / load in LW.

1) I have VERY limited FBX import options, to import SubD isn't even there (see screenshot compared to the other app).
2) Why on earth do I have to decide to Load Scene, Load Object or Import FBX, all I want is to load an FBX file (and the result is different, depending if there's a bone structure in the imported file)
3) No SubD is loaded, the Subdivision Modifier in the Modifier Stack is active an nothing happens

Importing the same FBX object of course loads as expected with the appropriate SubD Generator active in the other application.

I probably do something wrong... can somebody help me here?

141810

I donít have lw2018 but in 2015 you need to convert the active object to subpatch with the toggle subpatch button, similar to tab key in modeler. Look under the modeling tab in layout if there is one.

Ztreem
05-22-2018, 12:27 PM
If you’re saying small studios do not go between apps like Maya, Houdini, ZBrush, 3D Coat, Terragen, Tree Editor, Substance Painter, etc... then I dont know where to go from here bc it is absolutely not reality.

To clarify. Most indie and small studios (1-5 people) don’t use Clarisse, Katana or Renderman. Of course they do use several apps and jump between them as there is no other choice. Is it a preferred workflow that they got inspired from LW? No I don’t think so. Small studios usually have small budget projects with tight desdlines and if there was an app that was as powerful as maya for animation, like zbrush for sculpting, like substance painter for texturing, like after effects for comp etc and didn’t cost a fortune. I can bet that most small studios would prefer that instead of the hassle of exporting and importing between different apps. Big studios on the orher hand may not see this as big deal as they have specialists working in every app instead of one person trying to master all apps. It’s just the reality, you can’t take pixars pipeline straight down to a one man band and think that this person would make the next big pixar movie.

robertoortiz
05-22-2018, 01:25 PM
not quite true actually :d i have a prototype modeling plugin for lw that works just like edit poly/mesh modifier in 3dsmax in layout

show us!

raymondtrace
05-22-2018, 01:37 PM
It is entertaining to watch a discussion where people try to argue 3D is not a modular discipline, especially when they list all the programs they use, or are aware of.

Marander
05-22-2018, 02:39 PM
I donít have lw2018 but in 2015 you need to convert the active object to subpatch with the toggle subpatch button, similar to tab key in modeler. Look under the modeling tab in layout if there is one.

Thanks, great to know! Works indeed - and I always went back to Modeler - Tab - Save - back to Layout...

However the Subpatch information in the FBX import seems to be ignored by LW, but at least I know where to enable it now.

Marander
05-22-2018, 02:41 PM
FWIW: Just installed 18.0.4. To examine this issue, I Searched for SETSUBPATCH and found it, unassigned, in the Menu Editor. I gave it a place in the modeler tab (of Layout). Created, in Layout, a Cube.

When I hit "Set Subpatch", I get this:
...

However, TOGGLE SUBPATCH works.

Just throwing this into the stew: I've probably misunderstood what Set Subpatch does in the first place.

Thanks Jeric!

erikals
05-22-2018, 06:31 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png  erikals  porting Modeler tools to Layout would take a long time

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png  jay3d  Not quite true actually :D I have a prototype modeling plugin for LW that works just like Edit Poly/Mesh modifier in 3dsmax in Layout
i assume tools like Extrude/Bridge/Thicken/Bevel won't work ?
never-the-less, would be a quite nice edition to LW, and utterly needed.