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jaxtone
05-05-2018, 05:39 AM
Since most of the videotutorials that are showing hair, fibers etc in FiberFX are really old and some of them even says no when trying to follow them in the new version LW 2018 I guess it would be necessary for oldies like me to get some help either with links to how to make realistic hair in LW 2018 or if someone with more skills could assist with some help. I have gone through what I found in whitepapers but just don't get it.

Earlier I asked if Newtek couldn't just add a basic gallery of presets to start from that are able to be applied to different shapes but most of the old wavers doesn't seem to like when things are done the smooth way. So that request wasn't a popular wish. Heard that before huh? :)

Well anyway I tried to spend some time understanding how to avoid the new and extremely slow pre-render system in LW 2018 to see just the basics of how the hair changes with different settings. I guess it will take a lifetime to understand if you haven't got special skills.

I experienced that the old texture settings make things faster in the pre render process and saved down two scenes as an example of how one can create an ugly rug instead of hair when knowledge of how to do it are below zero :)

Can someone take a look and give me a hint of how to add some life and reality to that wig and please do not common the basic egghead, it's just there to keep the hair on an object.

What I wan't to do when it looks better is a test to see if FiberFX connection works better with dynamics than when I tried some years ago and FiberFX failed to make things work properly!

Jack

prometheus
05-05-2018, 07:33 AM
I guess it will take a lifetime to understand if you haven't got special skills.

Jack

You simply need to require the special skills, it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx, and if you donīt require the special skills, you simply do not spend a lifetime wrestling with something you donīt understand. :)

Just a question...your sample scenes, itīs basic hairguides without any special styling..but I am wondering, why do you have fiberfx turned off on those two scenes? itīs just the hairguides that is showing...either you have turned it off, forgotten to activate it..or something is happening when loading the scenes that doesnīt automaticly turn them on.
The checkmark to turn fiberfx on for rendering is supposedk to be checked under the eye icon in the fiberfx panel.

hair needs to be thin at the end, which means you should use a gradient in the fiber width, like the fiberV gradient.
Set a value of 0 at the end of that gradient, and a very very small value at the beginnig like 0,01......hair is very thin, especially mine (almost vellus hair at the landing bay for the flies)

prometheus
05-05-2018, 08:06 AM
I also think you may be using lights in a way that doesnīt yield realistic results, all spot lights, area light, distant light, and environment light may be better..if itīs outside avoid GI if possible and use the environment light with either area light ..Or the distant light.

Personally I do think fiberfx takes too long to render, no matter if you use GI or not, the old fiberfx rendered in some cases faster and with a more smooth look, but it could also be tricky to get good shadow depth and good reflection on dark material without all looking too flat.

jaxtone
05-05-2018, 01:30 PM
Hi Promotheus!

About the FiberFX I havenīt turned the layer with the hair on, just the other four layers that I understood had nothing to do with the hair process. Maybe the FiberFX turns off itself when closing Layout! Please see the attached image.

You wrote "it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx"!

I guess if a software suite contains a part of it 2018 that are supposed to be helpful and effective for a user 2018 that craves a couple of months to learn, its about time for the developers to think again. I guess not many have that time for a single part of a software if you gonna produce customer related stuff with deadlines, at least not me who just feels "stoopid" and stop using that part of the software when a backdraw like this occurs.

Every update PR from the end of the 90's and forward have sounded the same, faster, easier and better. Now I still do not see any good education videos of Fiber FX, long hair and dynamics that have been added since I tried to use it a couple of years ago. Maybe there is an interest behind this "not a very good strategy" from Newtek that their users shall NOT be masters of the different program parts without spending months to learn. Honestly I havenīt experienced too many examples of users that have examples of either tutors or proof of their work when it comes to Fiber FX longhair dynamics connection. And thats sad!

Now a question to your statement that you also experience the FiberFX as slow. What do you use instead when working with dynamics and longhair?


You simply need to require the special skills, it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx, and if you donīt require the special skills, you simply do not spend a lifetime wrestling with something you donīt understand. :)

Just a question...your sample scenes, itīs basic hairguides without any special styling..but I am wondering, why do you have fiberfx turned off on those two scenes? itīs just the hairguides that is showing...either you have turned it off, forgotten to activate it..or something is happening when loading the scenes that doesnīt automaticly turn them on.
The checkmark to turn fiberfx on for rendering is supposedk to be checked under the eye icon in the fiberfx panel.

hair needs to be thin at the end, which means you should use a gradient in the fiber width, like the fiberV gradient.
Set a value of 0 at the end of that gradient, and a very very small value at the beginnig like 0,01......hair is very thin, especially mine (almost vellus hair at the landing bay for the flies)

prometheus
05-05-2018, 02:38 PM
Hi Promotheus!

About the FiberFX I havenīt turned the layer with the hair on, just the other four layers that I understood had nothing to do with the hair process. Maybe the FiberFX turns off itself when closing Layout! Please see the attached image.

You wrote "it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx"!

I guess if a software suite contains a part of it 2018 that are supposed to be helpful and effective for a user 2018 that craves a couple of months to learn, its about time for the developers to think again. I guess not many have that time for a single part of a software if you gonna produce customer related stuff with deadlines, at least not me who just feels "stoopid" and stop using that part of the software when a backdraw like this occurs.

Every update PR from the end of the 90's and forward have sounded the same, faster, easier and better. Now I still do not see any good education videos of Fiber FX, long hair and dynamics that have been added since I tried to use it a couple of years ago. Maybe there is an interest behind this "not a very good strategy" from Newtek that their users shall NOT be masters of the different program parts without spending months to learn. Honestly I havenīt experienced too many examples of users that have examples of either tutors or proof of their work when it comes to Fiber FX longhair dynamics connection. And thats sad!

Now a question to your statement that you also experience the FiberFX as slow. What do you use instead when working with dynamics and longhair?

I understand you..And I think they still have a lot to do for the new hair system to become really good and fast, I had hoped for better speed and then better tools for styling the hair, in fact one of the many factors that made me not upgrade wat that I wasnīt satisfied with the new hair system, and currently I prefer another Free software that I think does hair better and renders much much faster with GPU rendering, and is easier to style.

That said..I am not a hair proffesional, I know quite a few things about it, and can also perform dynamics with lightwave.but I am in a process of learning the other software for that.

Image attached changed all your lights and just used distant light and one environment light, the fibers was changed a bit in length, and also using fiberV gradient in fiber width, I have to low aliasing here I guess..I didnīt upgrade so with the discover edition... I can only render out within VPR for showcasing something without checkers, canīt save out any scenefiles either for you due to that reason.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141573&d=1525552588

MonroePoteet
05-06-2018, 07:38 AM
Nice hints on the Fiber Z gradients! And, as mentioned, a single light with Environment highlights the hair better, although I ended up using a single Spotlight with a 1-meter size to get some softer shadows (not sure how to get those soft shadows in prometheus's posted screen grab with a Distant light). 3-point lighting in cinematography (as it appears the original lighting setup was supposed to be) is intended to simulate environment lighting. With with an appropriate backdrop, especially an HDRI spherical image map of the room / park / street scene where the character is supposed to be should work well instead of 3-point lighting.

Here's a sample scene using the original scene and attempting to reproduce prometheus's results. A screen shot of the FiberFX panel wasn't included, but I think a Gradient was also used on Gravity to make the hairs stick out from the head and then droop. The kink on the hair was reduced, the lighting changed, and the Gradient on the Fiber Width goes from 7mm down to 2mm - which is large for real-world hair but the head model is 4-meters in diameter! The Head and Hair colors on the head's surface were also changed to a dark reddish-brown so the blue background (environment) doesn't make the skin look sickly.

141581
141580

RE: speeding up FiberFX setup, for me the actual render is much faster than waiting for VPR to update. It's conceivable that fiber setup might be faster by using the Limited Camera region by pressing small L ("l") while in Current Camera view, drag the corners to a sub-portion of the frame to concentrate on. Make a FiberFX change, then press F9 to render that sub-portion. Dunno - I haven't done much fiber setup.

Good luck!
mTp

jaxtone
05-06-2018, 07:54 AM
Promotheus and MonroePoteet!

Thank you for taking time helping me out here. I bought syflex a couple of years ago and must say that both Newtek and Syflex must have some kind of overrated view of their customers and I guess its the same old "tech" side versus "creative producers" with less interest in coding, scripting or get into the depth of interfaces with more friction than fast solutions for telling a story with 3D and film. I totally hate that kind of stupidity that have been the code for one too many 3D softs and add ons.

Syflex had a massive amount of video and text tutorials for Softimage that is totally uninteresting and Lightwave have about no valuable video tutorials connected to their "new and better" FiberFX on internet! Are they really only in for the tech guys I guess their time is running out. Its rare to find any youngsters today that are not used to direct interaction when it comes to graphics and 3D apps... so for who are the developers creating their 3D-suites? Old technical geeks that will always stay foot to how it was in the old days?

What are my mission, what are your mission? To tell stories and even if stories mainly has very little to do with hair its just embarrassing that one has to go through tons of white papers to get some hair that are affected by gravity, wind or other dynamics in 2018.

I wonder what freeware that can handle hair and dynamics you are into Promotheus?

I am definitely gonna go through the scenes you have developed for me and wonder about how the head became 4 meters in size... must have something to do with a slice of desperation where I ripped my own hair from my scalp :)

prometheus
05-06-2018, 08:03 AM
Promotheus and MonroePoteet!

Thank you for taking time helping me out here. I bought syflex a couple of years ago and must say that both Newtek and Syflex must have some kind of overrated view of their customers and I guess its the same old "tech" side versus "creative producers" with less interest in coding, scripting or get into the depth of interfaces with more friction than fast solutions for telling a story with 3D and film. I totally hate that kind of stupidity that have been the code for one too many 3D softs and add ons.

Syflex had a massive amount of video and text tutorials for Softimage that is totally uninteresting and Lightwave have about no valuable video tutorials connected to their "new and better" FiberFX on internet! Are they really only in for the tech guys I guess their time is running out. Its rare to find any youngsters today that are not used to direct interaction when it comes to graphics and 3D apps... so for who are the developers creating their 3D-suites? Old technical geeks that will always stay foot to how it was in the old days?

What are my mission, what are your mission? To tell stories and even if stories mainly has very little to do with hair its just embarrassing that one has to go through tons of white papers to get some hair that are affected by gravity, wind or other dynamics in 2018.

I wonder what freeware that can handle hair and dynamics you are into Promotheus?

I am definitely gonna go through the scenes you have developed for me and wonder about how the head became 4 meters in size... must have something to do with a slice of desperation where I ripped my own hair from my scalp :)

That scene was not my doing, that is Monroepoteet saving it and naming it with a reference to me.

As for what kind of freeware? not hard to guess, I can give you a direct clear answer in private messages, but a hint would be...what do you use to mix a smoothie?

I will try and get time to record a process of getting styled hair from that softwave over to lightwave soon, had some issues with recording devices ..nvidia graphics card direct recordings changed with drivers needed to be updated, and the free obs studio I havent learned and used that much, but the drivers and the recordings seem to work now, I just need some more whisky to get the right narrative voice...and set some time apart between spring cleaning and normal work etc...got some work to do on this sunday for my work dealing with the new GDPR laws, a working group at work which I am part of.

I havenīt put up any vid for 3 months....So I need to get going soon again.

prometheus
05-06-2018, 08:17 AM
Nice hints on the Fiber Z gradients! And, as mentioned, a single light with Environment highlights the hair better, although I ended up using a single Spotlight with a 1-meter size to get some softer shadows (not sure how to get those soft shadows in prometheus's posted screen grab with a Distant light). 3-point lighting in cinematography (as it appears the original lighting setup was supposed to be) is intended to simulate environment lighting. With with an appropriate backdrop, especially an HDRI spherical image map of the room / park / street scene where the character is supposed to be should work well instead of 3-point lighting.

Here's a sample scene using the original scene and attempting to reproduce prometheus's results. A screen shot of the FiberFX panel wasn't included, but I think a Gradient was also used on Gravity to make the hairs stick out from the head and then droop. The kink on the hair was reduced, the lighting changed, and the Gradient on the Fiber Width goes from 7mm down to 2mm - which is large for real-world hair but the head model is 4-meters in diameter! The Head and Hair colors on the head's surface were also changed to a dark reddish-brown so the blue background (environment) doesn't make the skin look sickly.

141581
141580

RE: speeding up FiberFX setup, for me the actual render is much faster than waiting for VPR to update. It's conceivable that fiber setup might be faster by using the Limited Camera region by pressing small L ("l") while in Current Camera view, drag the corners to a sub-portion of the frame to concentrate on. Make a FiberFX change, then press F9 to render that sub-portion. Dunno - I haven't done much fiber setup.

Good luck!
mTp

I think I may have changed the distant lights angle a bit, which means softer shadows, there is no more dome lights in lightwave 2018 ..to acheive those you simply raise the angle to itīs highest value, if you are outside in the real world, when sunlight is obscured by clouds, or tree mist..shadows tend to look a bit softer.
Unfortunately as I mentioned, I only got the discovery edition..can not go back and check the scene settings.

I think the LW team needs to investigate and see if they can improve the VPR speed for fiberfx as well as radiosity..I am not satisfied with it...it feels like night and day in speed when I can use GPU in the other software and use itīs preview system.

MonroePoteet
05-06-2018, 03:40 PM
OK, thanks. I can confirm that increasing the angle on the Distant light appears to be the method you used. In the scene I uploaded, just changing the Light type to Distant and increasing the Angle in the Light Properties panel to 10% produces these types of soft shadows. Nice!

mTp

prometheus
05-08-2018, 12:31 PM
Haventī tried it ..but investing in octane may be the way to go for rendering the new fiberfx system in Lightwave, considering it can use the GPU for rendering, and when comparing "mix smoothie in a ...") software and GPU rendering VS Lightwave 2018 VPR rendering..the Lightwave render is much much slower, so that could be a question of CPU VS GPU Speed, but it may also be a question of the hair system itself in lightwave VS how well it is implemented in my other software.
I think Lino Grandi states he almost uses Octane nowadays for all his renders ..with lightwave that is.

sudac20
05-08-2018, 04:58 PM
Unless you are working for print I wouldn't wast your time with hair/fur in lightwave. I have yet to see any decent looking hair and fur examples out of lightwave that doesn't look it's from the 90's. I can get around most of Lightwaves shortcomings but without any third party support, I don't see any workiable hair solutions on the Horizon. Might want to try Houdini Indi if your serious about trying to get decent fur/ hair??? I miss Worley :(

jaxtone
05-08-2018, 11:36 PM
Sudax20

Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...

That price is not in my plans at the moment. But you really made me think of why I still use Lightwave for other purposes than squares, cubes and spaceships. What idiot am I that time after time fall into the updates about new and better program parts that actually takes too long and gives too little when talking of a fast accurate customer friendly interface. Allthough I must admit that I have become really fast when it comes to creating cubes... :)

When looking at this three year old tutorial and all the rest of Houdini's user friendly inspiring and understandable tutorials I get inspired.

This show off of a simple way to create instant hair in a 3D software worth its name would spread a shadow of shame over Lightwaveīs non optional tutorials, education material or whatever they DO NOT COME UP WITH.

The FiberFX that I am stuck with suddenly looks more like a joke in comparison with this.

P.S. For you guys out there that are pleased with how it works inside Lightwave please do notcriticize me until you have something similar to show up regarding Lightwaves FiberFX and its tutorials! I am not interested in twisting and tweaking with pointless actions or dip my nose in white papers that cannot show or guarantee that the result will be great.

Man they make it so easy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7vn6ontCyI

... and a moustache to!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBki4l4jLjo

Marander
05-09-2018, 01:31 AM
Sudax20

Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...


No that's not correct, Houdini Indie can do exactly the same as the FX version, except the 4k limitation for animations.

Maybe you confuse it with Houdini Core.

About restrictions, this is what is written right there on the Houdini Indie page:

The annual gross revenue of commercial entities and contracting entities does not exceed $100K USD
Commercial entities and contracting entities can purchase a maximum of 3 Houdini Indie and 3 Houdini Engine Indie
Houdini Indie includes a supplementary license for use on a second computer/laptop or to work in dual boot mode
The use of these two licenses is restricted to a single artist, who can only use Houdini Indie on one of these computers at a time
Houdini Indie cannot be used in the same pipeline as commercial versions of Houdini
Houdini Indie uses its own file format for saving scenes and assets
It is restricted to 4096 x 4096 when rendering out animations
Houdini Indie works with the following third party renderers: RenderMan, Arnold, Redshift and OctaneRender. V-ray and Maxwell Render will be supported in the future

prometheus
05-09-2018, 04:22 AM
Sudax20

Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...

That price is not in my plans at the moment. But you really made me think of why I still use Lightwave for other purposes than squares, cubes and spaceships. What idiot am I that time after time fall into the updates about new and better program parts that actually takes too long and gives too little when talking of a fast accurate customer friendly interface. Allthough I must admit that I have become really fast when it comes to creating cubes... :)

When looking at this three year old tutorial and all the rest of Houdini's user friendly inspiring and understandable tutorials I get inspired.

This show off of a simple way to create instant hair in a 3D software worth its name would spread a shadow of shame over Lightwaveīs non optional tutorials, education material or whatever they DO NOT COME UP WITH.

The FiberFX that I am stuck with suddenly looks more like a joke in comparison with this.

P.S. For you guys out there that are pleased with how it works inside Lightwave please do notcriticize me until you have something similar to show up regarding Lightwaves FiberFX and its tutorials! I am not interested in twisting and tweaking with pointless actions or dip my nose in white papers that cannot show or guarantee that the result will be great.

Man they make it so easy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7vn6ontCyI

... and a moustache to!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBki4l4jLjo

I donīt think the rendering is the problem for 2018 lightwave fiberfx when it comes to quality, itīs the speed and how you groom style the guides with any kind of brush.
Personally I recommend checking some software I have pointed you towards that is free, it is quite easy and similar to style with particle edit brush ..as you would with houdini, in fact houdini may be a bit more complicated compare to the free solution ..And, you can get that hair grooming back to lightwave easier than it seem to be with houdini, if you prefer to use lightwave and render, or use the free softwares native renderer and GPU rendering ..which is soo much faster than itīs own native cpu render, or lightwave cpu render...additionally you bring in these guides after grooming from the Free software ..in to lightwave and use octane for lightwave to render it faster with GPU.

I am off for 4 days of free time during the holiday, I may be able to record a vid on how to groom in this software and then how to save it out for proper import to lightwave, a few steps to follow exactly so it doesnīt crash fiberfx in lightwave, but otherwise it is quite a smooth process....I have been wanting to record this for a long time to help out, but just havenīt had time.

SBowie
05-09-2018, 08:51 AM
OK, here's what's what: it's fair to suggest someone might find a competing app could be helpful in dealing with a particular problem; it's borderline, but I let it slide. But we will stop short of tolerating the promoting of a competitor as a replacement for LW, which is clearly in violation of forum policy. Just a head's up ...

prometheus
05-09-2018, 12:53 PM
OK, here's what's what: it's fair to suggest someone might find a competing app could be helpful in dealing with a particular problem; it's borderline, but I let it slide. But we will stop short of tolerating the promoting of a competitor as a replacement for LW, which is clearly in violation of forum policy. Just a head's up ...

In reference to how we can use lightwave together with other software, using it to import to lightwave ..or use Lightwave to export to other software, where may this now be appropiate?
Video Samples would perhaps be..


Bringing blender styled hair in to Lightwave for rendering in lightwave.
Bringing in blender fire and smoke simulations in to lightwave and use the new OPEN VDB and rendering in Lightwave.
Using Lightwave line pen tool for branch creation and exporting to Blender for use with skin modifier.



Would this qualify as useful for lightwavers, 3d artists in general...or would it appear as offensive since it also is a competing product ?
And if not..would that qualify and be best suited to post to in this case 1001 ways to use lightwave and blender together, and not really allowed elsewhere?

Your thoughts?

SBowie
05-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Your thoughts?My thoughts are that I moderated the post AFTER your previous one (#15), because it basically explained why its author felt the competitor was better than LW, what it's price was, and a link to the site. That's a bit much ...

prometheus
05-09-2018, 01:21 PM
My thoughts are that I moderated the post AFTER your previous one (#15), because it basically explained why its author felt the competitor was better than LW, what it's price was, and a link to the site. That's a bit much ...

Yes..if you mean houdini tools, that I can understand, since it has no rererence in the sense of how to work with houdini and lightwave together, and the comment aftermath though understandable..not fitting.
It doesnīt answer my recent questions though, which I brought up trying to avoid it being to out of forum rules, but then again..you may have to see it in order to make a judgement call on that...so currently itīs not necessary maybe.
Take your time...I donīt got time to record anything of what I mentioned anyway for some days, summer is here in stockholm finally..
+23 degrees celsius during days, not too hot and not too cold, it just reached us this week:)

SBowie
05-09-2018, 01:38 PM
+23 degrees celsius during days, not too hot and not too cold, it just reached us this week:)Nice.

Sorry - I'm not going to take time to write exhaustive rules, for two reasons. First, I haven't got time. Second, I really don't think rules are an especially effective approach in the end. Mature consideration and discretion by those posting should suffice; in the odd case where that doesn't seem to be so, moderation will ensue.

For the record, I cannot remember a time where I found it necessary to moderate one of your posts (if it happened just yesterday, by chance, blame it on only slightly premature senility). As a general observation, I appreciate that you make a meaningful effort to color within the lines.

prometheus
05-09-2018, 01:40 PM
Nice.

Sorry - I'm not going to take time to write exhaustive rules, for two reasons. First, I haven't got time. Second, I really don't think rules are an especially effective approach in the end. Mature consideration and discretion by those posting should suffice; in the odd case where that doesn't seem to be so, moderation will ensue.

For the record, I cannot remember a time where I found it necessary to moderate one of your posts (if it happened just yesterday, by chance, blame it on only slightly premature senility). As a general observation, I appreciate that you make a meaningful effort to color within the lines.

Thanks...fully understandable.
And no..I donīt think you have moderated me in recent times, but then again..hereīs looking at ya, could be premature senility.

sudac20
05-09-2018, 02:08 PM
All good, Just trying to help out a fellow artist. Hair in Lightwave is not where it needs to be. I didn't want someone to waste their time when there are "other solutions" available.

SBowie
05-09-2018, 02:11 PM
All good, Just trying to help out a fellow artist.You might consider a PM for such purposes, thanks.

jaxtone
05-09-2018, 11:42 PM
SBowie.

I am not jealous at you and I guess the mission as a moderator isn't a rose garden from time to time. But I would actually rather see that your action plan landed more in solving the problem of a dysfunctional program part that landed on inadequate teaching materials. That's the main problem!

I donīt know your connections to the Newtek department of how educate customers to be better 3D artists. But a straight message to whoever sitting on the top of the Newtek group for 3D would be good for them to.

I guess you never will be able to moderate away frustration based on the fact that Lightwave's technical team have missed to add understandable tutorials from head to toe that explains the program parts integrated in the 2018 version. Most of the external tutorial material are old and cannot be used because the core of Lightwave has been changed. Some of the material donīt tell the whole story and some is out of date since Lightwave kicked away third party developers like the DP- kit guy that has been a gold mine for the whole community. Do you really understand what a drag it is to learn from tutorials that are not accurate or possible to go all the way with?

If you find a way and have time to communicate this problem with your fellow moderators where at least some of you have voices that Newtek will listen to seriously, please tell them about what I just told. Its obvious that I am not alone, there are too many of us technical "idiots" out here that are not able to use Lightwave's program parts because there are a lack of understandable video tutorials or similar guide lines that explains how to use them. Otherwise I guess this thread had been solved days ago and have contained a lot of usable solutions instead of silence, questions and talk about alternative softwares.

What do Newtek expect from anyone who have payed for a software and are not satisfied with the learning material or ease of use. Today the material does not fill the gap between a software developers wet dreams and a harsh reality for a digital producer that needs to be up to date to be able to compete on a rough market. Think right and do right use to be a good expression for a bright future and hopefully you will be a resource that can help me and other users can to benefit from Lightwave to the full.

After that I can guarantee you that NO talk would ever come up about other software in the same way it did!

Regards, Jack

jaxtone
05-09-2018, 11:55 PM
Even if things turned out in a strange way I have to thank you for the inspiration when I saw the workflow in the hair part of the software you told me about. I guess the developers at Lightwave should take part of that way to work to make Lightwave even better.

About the PM suggestion from SBowie its not a big deal for me what ever we choose but I just have to ask this. Is this a new way of thinking how the forum shall be? I cannot remember that this have been an issue earlier but then I must add that I might have missed something essential in this matter.

Is it really meaning that members of this forum are only allowed to discuss the advantages of Lightwave and cannot compare or mention other softwares capabilities that might be better in any way?

Remember that I am one of few Swedish users in a part of Europe where Autodesk have more seats than Lightwave ever have dreamed about. I am no fan of Autodesk and praise that Newtek still let Lightwave be an independent sofware free from the big corporation AD. But I must admit that the lack of users makes it hard to get help from short distance users if you get stuck. So this forum is in one way the last outpost to improve and have fun with other in the same situation.

sudac20 I will therefore thank you again for you inspiration and help.

Piece by piece this old machine that's me moves forward.

Regards, Jack



All good, Just trying to help out a fellow artist. Hair in Lightwave is not where it needs to be. I didn't want someone to waste their time when there are "other solutions" available.

erikals
05-10-2018, 04:12 AM
hi, quite a few FiberFX intro videos here >
https://www.youtube.com/user/erikalst/search?query=FiberFX

prometheus
05-10-2018, 05:49 AM
there is also old tutorials which often still has valid settings or approaches for fiberfx..all those William Vaughan tutorials.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=william+vaughan+fiberfx
https://www.youtube.com/user/lightwavevideos/search?query=fiberfx

prometheus
05-10-2018, 12:03 PM
since I am running on discovery edition for lightwave 2018, it means I can not save any scenes for anyone, limitations that I can not subpatch the object in the scene unless I do that in 2015 initially..which I havenīt done here, so the object is a bit hard.
Used the "smoothie mixer" software to grow particle hair, then comb it a bit with particle edit, did just one fast one..not really focusing on it or making it especially good, just wanted to see how it renders in various programs.

it was quite a lot of hair strands, 9870 fibers ( 2526720 edges) and it is very and too dense as to be effective really, using that many straight guides,and animating them...donīt think so, tried first to use OD tools and copy and paste..works, takes a bit of time..and it crashes when I tried to delete the base mesh in lightwave initiall, restarted and used the exported obj instead.
to make the particle hair as hairguides, you go to modifier tab and click on convert , that converts it to a mesh which you can export to lightwave.

The rest is a matter of just copying them as edges and paste them in a separate layer and delete the base polys, by doing this, you can use both lightwave 2015 or 2018 and it shouldnīt crash.

Initially I have thought that Lightwave VPR refreshes too slow with the hair, I think I have gotten it a bit more faster now, it depends if you have had internet browsers on, or other windows on, the best way is to reboot and Only work with lightwave for vpr to behave decently fast...so no web browsers on, or to many other stuff.

Check this album and it may be of use for you to steel my settings for the hair, various settings, and what kind of lighting and how you place it is crucial as well for good images, if you spend some time, I am convinced you can get very good quality images for hair, but it takes a bit more than what I have done here in Lightwave 2018, and I can only render out VPR draft due to speed reasons and avoiding discovery edition checkers, so aliasing not so good.
I also like the skin ..at least for fresnel effects, having a bit of a more harder time to produce that in the other software, though the other software tends to be easier to use subsurface scattering for me.
Itīs also easier and more realistic to use the area lights in lightwave to produce highlights in eyes I think, that I like.

Feel free to rip fiberfx hair material settings from my settings ..if it helps, but itīs also about lighting, how I made the hair in the other software..I will showcase in another forum.
but it was a bit impressive that I did no changes what so ever to Lightwave 2018 fiberfx styling, or hair amount or fiber thickness, just took it as it was from the import, and then changed the settings in the hair material a bit with diffuse, translucency, quilt specularity etc.

Hair is errogenous, it is intersecting with the mesh..that is most likely due the child hair particles I used in the other software, and used some kinds, wave deformations..the original hair strands was groomed sculpted anyway in a manner that it actually collided with the mesh when sculpting, but as said..any child hair that is tweaked may be going in to the mesh if you are not careful.

The figure at hand ..is daz genesis 8, not that fond of her eyes, of course..I didnīt attach any true eyebrows, nor eyelashes, and I think I may have messed the various eye mesh layers up in the other software, cause that needs a bit of changing.

Check the album on google photos for all the images ....

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNG3zNPiEyD5usNe3YFQNYCg4u2fE0ix5Xc05RE


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZvZlVenXRHpT96X8QanixQ4A5SRO5qb2vDkz5gI0sJhLW3NyMe P3Y2B0roqwkHwLRApIdK7xJh6ls38b42twQtGgDCrLM9urktF7 Sas484sUZ4IvWjTVrYcJRzgyqm9jY6tZJlVSTjUI3AesLuaVqy 9Yks6RF9a3ISCvUHx-tsBgl4tmrpgqpCrVrbCxbrOpRXT4X4W7l3t2DEwKey8poXp1qj sXbZPlOYsW9h1-oFVRhWYiZpA1uc4qrtzhiOn3_SnVrU5k7pafyBb9ywRwFGbK1v AsedBqx4vG246mCHlUgxCOc4XRxb8K50lcJXP5QV88XyqiS9oY O1lLJO1tNTtOZIrUn0EQrmfFbqB_pO0OYCM3P6msE667HpWJYO 7u6mAhXJu4a37A1_y31tR72iJ-FSO6FLu48p3jftssNRvb-HgNCIRUuffhUMBs47JvTzsMzC2WDp7HkmgKommbhdHebj1z0Ni vpocdRbsVfwwD4CyMP1BB7cpS0nY3MO1NZvaptJGCHW9molsEe 3lBhv7dZpAi_jWOaW6jgnmJgBG5ZpuzHen9Fg2MNSDEIjvFjkA U3BuNtNW50l91iE7BgZ1FNPDEs3RWsD0MXl0=w1616-h915-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X4VUVp9w1n9oe2sPbvLxxqlj_6GANS4cvcgsEmG4hVN_66rUYp SZbEh8o2WZQu_k1p64Y5O_ych0dcs7jGtaOFw8Nrw5jDc2cbbI ZPHzrON9sVTy5tLnHIoY7VxsB4PE1OgxZuZSUR29laH8UmL-u1ek6b_gE5tU7LTfS7q1ZiQYeyBSsCywPC0aeuS8h8NvalNuRn Smnn65LT0oECHog9gH4rTC5U_Uel33pmSjfrkcKacfbE1OTogK dvWXAFZEGkTE9BmTG90pXhKDiOBH16qaQqUa9tF17-yVFTVWVfU55EbmTbzzThMaosSj-8sHTKRarmbw_rXB3wQ5vDiTwERIX6ciTa8B60dLl-_e-5Y_rQJ9DF2SmGtmITvi9s7PKIOocaV6Z1cB4kdVl6Drw79JfnB 2zFR_kL5vtpkyZiAoOIk53Rb1RGK32GMhPgyq2NRqoyZl0SMb5 is4wlyERKoy00luRH4TvK_-Fc9sB6WiVIJ-7Uvapeds-yRn5mu_bJJo_eskakK0wpawypPci1psahpVl69zv4BMnf6bOte yFRvN-p3-hGFWrTHPde7uYTn1bXPZC1h_pKICLRXokAxOjxdEEPt4nsYZab 4=w1616-h915-no


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141631&d=1525975075

jaxtone
05-11-2018, 04:49 AM
erikals!

A big thank you for your effort trying to get good results our of FiberFX. I see that you even use "trial and error" in a test version of Lightwave 2018 and gives you all respect for your passion in this field.

I guess you've spent a lot of time to step up from basics to reach those results. I will for sure use these examples and tutorials to give FiberFX a chance before I give it up because to be honest I actually donīt have days, weeks or months to get into the depth of a part of a software that obviously have an interface that are not user friendly at all. Its now 2018 and I guess interactivity is not just a name. Meaning that Newtek still have missed the basics in how to compete and pull young generation of users into the Lightwave area.

You are my hero and I thank you for sharing your skills. Now I am going to film a project and edit a documentary but are already looking forward for tonight when I am gonna get into your videos! Thanks again!



hi, quite a few FiberFX intro videos here >
https://www.youtube.com/user/erikalst/search?query=FiberFX

jaxtone
05-11-2018, 04:54 AM
As I experienced William Vaughn is like a God in understanding and sharing his knowledge with the Lightwave community.

I haven't seen all of the video material you linked to but a a couple of years ago I went through a lot of the basics that he shared. There was only one problem, the old version of FiberFX failed so much I gave it up.

Hope that the new one is better, otherwise, I say goodbye to the whole FiberFX idea!

Thanks anyway and I will look through them later tonight!



hi, quite a few FiberFX intro videos here >
https://www.youtube.com/user/erikalst/search?query=FiberFX

SBowie
05-11-2018, 07:40 AM
I am not jealous at you and I guess the mission as a moderator isn't a rose garden from time to time. But I would actually rather see that your action plan landed more in solving the problem of a dysfunctional program part that landed on inadequate teaching materials ... (snip) I donīt know your connections to the Newtek department of how educate customers to be better 3D artists.

(Snip) ...I guess you never will be able to moderate away frustration based on the fact that Lightwave's technical team have missed to add understandable tutorials from head to toe that explains the program parts integrated in the 2018 version.Well, let's see. First, no-one moderated any remarks that asked for more/better training materials. So I'm not clear why we're talking about moderation and training as though there were any relationship between these. Second, I have little to do with the LW group, apart from a generally cordial relationship, much less their training efforts or any input into the resources available to them in this respect. You'd be better off offering those remarks to BeeVee.



Is this a new way of thinking how the forum shall be? I cannot remember that this have been an issue earlier but then I must add that I might have missed something essential in this matter.

Is it really meaning that members of this forum are only allowed to discuss the advantages of Lightwave and cannot compare or mention other softwares capabilities that might be better in any way? Nothing new about it. Promoting competing products has always been unwelcome here. We are all guests here. Promoting a competing product is like being invited for dinner by a married couple, and making remarks over the meal on how much better off the husband would be if he dumped his wife and took up with that cute blonde at the office. It's just plain bad manners.

As has been explained here many times, it is one thing to offer (for example) suggestions or questions about how some result or workflow from another application can be performed in LW, or to offer a genuine suggestion to the effect that LW would benefit by adopting/emulating some feature or other, or to discuss interchange between products. It is quite another to overtly promote another product, or to endlessly try to veil efforts to do so under cover of otherwise permitted comments like those just mentioned. If this seems overly restrictive, 'them's the breaks', as they say.

prometheus
05-11-2018, 07:40 AM
As I experienced William Vaughn is like a God in understanding and sharing his knowledge with the Lightwave community.

I haven't seen all of the video material you linked to but a a couple of years ago I went through a lot of the basics that he shared. There was only one problem, the old version of FiberFX failed so much I gave it up.

Hope that the new one is better, otherwise, I say goodbye to the whole FiberFX idea!

Thanks anyway and I will look through them later tonight!

I think it seems much more stable nowadays and not proned to crash in the way it used to, though it still can if you do not use correct polychains...and I think the quality can be very nice, for me personally it may be the speed iteration refreshment that I lack in VPR, and styling tools when brushing with a comb tool, then again..the straight hard to the core editing of curves and points can be a benifit when doing special hair guides, there is quite a lot of ways to create hair in lightwave actually, itīs just the basic creation And editing in layout that I feel is left behind.

I know you have mentioned dynamics, and you may want that foremost, but if you are not using any dynamics, remember that you can use any spline curve made in modeler without even turning it to a polychain, fiberfx in layout will read that well too.

Noticed..my link to my uploaded google photos isnīt correct, was logged in and linked to my logged page, so when logging out, it doesnīt work though it did work for me when I was logged in, have to correct that.

prometheus
05-11-2018, 08:47 AM
I think it seems much more stable nowadays and not proned to crash in the way it used to, though it still can if you do not use correct polychains.. but if you are not using any dynamics, remember that you can use any spline curve made in modeler without even turning it to a polychain, fiberfx in layout will read that well too.



Quoting myself, did I say stable?
Just tested using curves the first time with fiberfx in 2018.. it actually crashed the first time when doing that..so, hmm, either it has taken a step back on that as well, or they have removed the option to use curves as we could before?

jaxtone
05-11-2018, 11:36 AM
In that case I am the guy that definitely would bring a couple of blondes for the male and a couple of hunks for the wife and start to play some "swing... music" to loosen things up a bit before the dinner :)

To promote competing products right of or to learn or get inspired from different 3D systems advantages is not the same thing to me.


Promoting a competing product is like being invited for dinner by a married couple, and making remarks over the meal on how much better off the husband would be if he dumped his wife and took up with that cute blonde at the office. It's just plain bad manners.

jaxtone
05-11-2018, 11:44 AM
By the way, this is what Newtek offers if I get into the link Tutorials and type FiberFX!

Overwhelming or just lazy?

https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/?terms=FiberFX

raymondtrace
05-11-2018, 11:51 AM
To promote competing products right of or to learn or get inspired from different 3D systems advantages is not the same thing to me.

It was easy to distinguish the issue when someone posted pricing and links for purchase. That's not inspiration.

SBowie
05-11-2018, 12:37 PM
To promote competing products right of or to learn or get inspired from different 3D systems advantages is not the same thing to me.And that's pretty much what I said.

erikals
05-11-2018, 01:27 PM
erikals!

A big thank you for your effort trying to get good results our of FiberFX. I see that you even use "trial and error" in a test version of Lightwave 2018 and gives you all respect for your passion in this field.

I guess you've spent a lot of time to step up from basics to reach those results. I will for sure use these examples and tutorials to give FiberFX a chance before I give it up because to be honest I actually donīt have days, weeks or months to get into the depth of a part of a software that obviously have an interface that are not user friendly at all. Its now 2018 and I guess interactivity is not just a name. Meaning that Newtek still have missed the basics in how to compete and pull young generation of users into the Lightwave area.

You are my hero and I thank you for sharing your skills. Now I am going to film a project and edit a documentary but are already looking forward for tonight when I am gonna get into your videos! Thanks again!


heey, that's very nice of you!  :)

yes, wrestling FiberFX certainly has taken a lot of time, and you are correct in basically saying "FiberFX ain't a walk in the park"

there are many challenges, and sometimes bugs.
hopefully LW2018 makes it better as far as render-issues goes.

certainly yes, if you want to learn animating FiberFX in LW11 or LW2015 you are up for quite a few hours.

is it worth learning it if aiming for FiberFX animation ?...
hard to say, i think you have to have quite a lot of patience.

it might be. i know Greenlaw and LightWaveGuru have gotten alright results in LightWave 11.6/2015 and Octane.

all in all though i think FiberFX is slowly... https://i.imgur.com/zHYIj7K.gif ...heading in the right direction


thanks again for the compliments  https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png

prometheus
05-11-2018, 05:35 PM
I personally feel I do not have the patience to work with the current speed of the cpu rendering of fiberfx, One alternative that may be highly recommended to overcome that to some degree, that would as mentioned be to use octane.
I need to try octane demo with the 2018 trial, which I am not sure is doable, if anyone of you guys knows if that is possible..just grab my hair if possible to alert me :)

jaxtone
05-12-2018, 12:34 AM
About the Octane render I've heard a lot positives and negatives but never went so far that I've tried it myself. The lazy bastard inside me never checked things up and I thought it was about $3000 or likely.

Actually havenīt had the problem with slow render times in Lightwave 11.6 since I always use render passes and would never even think of such stupid things like rendering whole scenes at the same time. On frame over 1 minute of render time has been a total failure to me and as explained earlier I always have preferred the freedom of using post editing for the purpose of putting scenery together. Fast and accurate for most customers in the field I have worked in.

But now when Lightwave 2018 arrived and I became one of the "lucky" owners of the new VPR (Variable psychotic resignation) things changed dramatically. Do not appreciate when render engines that are promised to be faster for the advanced scenes slow down the basics.

But can someone tell me if this is monthly payment is what Octane really needs as fuel to speed up my render routines in LW 2018. Or do one have to buy the software for a huge amount before the monthly subscription?

I also wonder why in Gods name Lightwave 2018 isn't included in that offer?

P.S. Donīt get any answer from the Octane guys and hope someone in here knows more than me.

https://home.otoy.com/render/octane-render/subscriptions/

Marander
05-12-2018, 02:15 AM
You can buy Octane with the LW plugin from Otoy for a reasonable price without the need for subscription.

For a machine with decent render times in a GPU render engine like Octane you should at least have a dual GPU rig like 2x GF1080 but that should be way below 3k.

jaxtone
05-12-2018, 02:44 AM
Thanks Marander!

My rig is:

Win 7 Professional 64 bit - Serv Pack 1
Intel Core I7 3820 - 3.6 Ghz (4 Core processor)
16 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 780

I know that the subscription version only allows two cores but it would still be a bit faster than Lightwave's native VPR and render process I guess?

The graphic card I use has to stay a bit longer but I guess recommendations is not a static kick in the *** message to forget about Octane totally because of the Graphic card I use?

I believe that $20 a month is really cheap to get a faster render engine that handles volumetrics and stuff in a higher speed and hope that Lightwave will be inspired of this to include something similar in their future versions as a standard. I would like that especially for one reason.

When Lightwave takes new paths in the future it could as well exclude third party suppliers like Otoy! Better to have the fast speed render features baked in to avoid threads like this one once and for all :)

About the graphic cards Otoy suggest I am not really there yet!

https://www.cnet.com/products/nvidia-quadro-p6000-graphics-card-quadro-p6000-24-gb/prices/


You can buy Octane with the LW plugin from Otoy for a reasonable price without the need for subscription.

For a machine with decent render times in a GPU render engine like Octane you should at least have a dual GPU rig like 2x GF1080 but that should be way below 3k.

Marander
05-12-2018, 03:15 AM
Hey Jaxtone,

The 780 is still a decent card, you can check the comparison here, single 780 vs single 1080ti. It looks 780 is still able render in Octane.

https://render.otoy.com/octanebench/summary_detail_item.php?v=3.06.2&systemID=1x+GTX+1080+Ti+%2B+1x+GTX+780+Ti

Of course a 2x - 4x GPU can be great but at the moment GPU prices are very high.

But besides that I would consider an upgrading your base system, for displacements or landsdcapes, 16GB RAM is quite limiting (as well as a 3rd Gen i7 Quadcore in some situations). But as you mentioned, working with passes / compositing allows smaller renders with lower RAM.

erikals
05-12-2018, 03:27 AM
When Lightwave takes new paths in the future it could as well exclude third party suppliers like Otoy
Better to have the fast speed render features baked in to avoid threads like this one once and for all   :)
true, an inevitable path. better for NT to make it sooner, rather than later. totally agree.
through in additional LightWave Cpu/Gpu support also.  https://i.imgur.com/GUaE92k.gif


The 780 is still a decent card,
yep, just add one more card, or an additional 780Ti/980Ti  (buy used, cheaper)

Marander
05-12-2018, 03:50 AM
A problem with the GF9xx cards is that the have a bit few memory, the 10xx series have up to 12GB. On the other hand my 2x GF970 render faster than my 1080 for smaller scenes.

Marander
05-12-2018, 03:57 AM
yep, just add one more card, or an additional 780Ti/980Ti  (buy used, cheaper)

Yes but one has also to consider 1) how many GPU lanes / PCI-E the mainboard has and 2) that the power supply and cooling is sufficient.

erikals
05-12-2018, 05:42 AM
indeed, i'd probably not use more than 2x cards in the 780/980 series.
they draw a lot of power.
regarding lanes, bit more info here >
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48564

using 3 or 4 cards looks to be easier with the 1080's (?)

Marander
05-12-2018, 08:45 AM
indeed, i'd probably not use more than 2x cards in the 780/980 series.
they draw a lot of power.
using 3 or 4 cards looks to be easier with the 1080's (?)

Yeah I agree, power consumption is a lot lower in the 10xx series but already the 9xx series are more efficient then the 7xx.

Oh man this thread is derailed from fiberfx tutorials to GPU power ;-)

erikals
05-12-2018, 09:06 AM
all threads at NT derail... :hey:

that's what keeps this forum more active...

though, i think it is impossible for the threads not to,

there's always a question leading to an answer, followed by another question, leading to... and so on... :)


often, a lot is learned from info-derailing threads

jaxtone
05-12-2018, 02:10 PM
It was easy to distinguish the issue when someone posted pricing and links for purchase. That's not inspiration.

To me it was both inspiration and information!

I respect your opinion but why pick on details when the big issue is lack of information of how to do it and how come Lightwave doesn't fix the FiberFX once and for all. Meaning that the lack of functions and crashes have been known for years. I repeat myself now but donīt you agree on that if the FiberFX had been fully functional and easy to use from scratch no discussions had been necessary of how other software have solved their problem to get inspired from!

I am no salesman or promotor for other software, I am desperate and my whiskey bottle is empty, kind of :)

Regards, Jack

jaxtone
05-12-2018, 11:39 PM
Marander, derailing is this threads middle name, and I really like since all information that you guys have may fill gaps that exist in my own ignorance!

My mind is wide open for any subject that makes me less stoopid :)


Yeah I agree, power consumption is a lot lower in the 10xx series but already the 9xx series are more efficient then the 7xx.

Oh man this thread is derailed from fiberfx tutorials to GPU power ;-)

jaxtone
05-12-2018, 11:41 PM
So have any of you guys tested the Octane demo yet?

In that case may I ask you under which folder the plugin and necessary content is supposed to be placed?

I am not familiar with the Lightwave 3D 2018 yet and don't know if its in the program folder or plugin folder things have to stay to make it work!

jaxtone
05-13-2018, 02:00 AM
I correct myself here since the plugin shows up in Lightwave after I put all the necessary Octane files in the plugin folder for Lightwave plugins.

As I remember there used to be some plugins and programs that had to be placed direct under the program folder in Lightwave. But things may have changed at bit since then.



So have any of you guys tested the Octane demo yet?

In that case may I ask you under which folder the plugin and necessary content is supposed to be placed?

I am not familiar with the Lightwave 3D 2018 yet and don't know if its in the program folder or plugin folder things have to stay to make it work!

erikals
05-13-2018, 06:51 AM
So have any of you guys tested the Octane demo yet?
nope   :)

not sure how many has...
looking forward to hearing about it
could be LightWiki has a test or two...