PDA

View Full Version : LightWave Update



erikals
05-05-2018, 03:52 AM
...have to admit i got a bit curious


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc


16:40 into the video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc&feature=youtu.be&t=16m40s


and hey, no speculation. (if you can resist)

50one
05-05-2018, 04:52 AM
...have to admit i got a bit curious


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc


16:40 into the video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc&feature=youtu.be&t=16m40s


and hey, no speculation. (if you can resist)

Seeing is believing, definitely will be willing to upgrade once something solid is shown

hrgiger
05-05-2018, 09:24 AM
Maybe its because I've been around too long but how gullible are people? When do you stop taking everything a company says for faith and looking at what they deliver? They just put out a very unplanned and unprepared 2018 release after a year of silence, the developers working on the product or people working support didn't even have any idea when this version was going to be released, they just fired a handful of people, one of whom was the man who was partly behind the new rendering system in the newest release and now people are believing they're working on something unbelievably cool after just a few months? Dont' worry, they have a bridge to sell you also.

-FP-
05-05-2018, 12:27 PM
Charlie Brown = Lightwave user
Lucy Van Pelt = Newtek

tischbein3
05-05-2018, 01:37 PM
beeing innovative was never the problem, to communicate the innovations has become more and more a problem
i mean its 4 month after the release and instead of capitalizing on the release with examples training etc,
they already start to advertise the next version.
I mean its a running theme through lw history, but from version to version this becomes more the modus operandi

Kaptive
05-05-2018, 02:08 PM
http://wallpaperen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/elegant-running-away-meme-the-gallery-for-run-away-monty-python-meme-running-away-meme.jpg

:)

prometheus
05-05-2018, 03:02 PM
beeing innovative was never the problem, to communicate the innovations has become more and more a problem
i mean its 4 month after the release and instead of capitalizing on the release with examples training etc,
they already start to advertise the next version.
I mean its a running theme through lw history, but from version to version this becomes more the modus operandi

was innovative was just that...was, I donīt agree with you here, as Andrew Cross himself says, they have lost some of that innovative edge..It doesnīt mean lightwave isnīt good, itīs just that when you look at history..hypervoxels for instance was innovative at that time..without any real rivals I would say for those effects at that time.

If the team pull of things like instancing but with Unique instances for example, meaning a figure has several morphs to change it looks, but it only uses the original poly character, but before instanced ..it would fetch any level in between within the morph, for creating characters that doesnīt look the same, things like that I reckon would be a bit innovative if it isnīt already out ther :)

or why not rigs that performs motions based on AI, not using any motion capture data, but data based on how humans walk and move, and even how a horse is running..it would all be controlled within the AI based on research on how bones and ligaments actually is moving, but with a controll for setting up various motion it may contain.

Just brainstorming..

Chris S. (Fez)
05-05-2018, 03:45 PM
LW is massively more powerful this week due to 3rd Party plugs. Uberpass and Nodemeister and Metamorphic were supposedly not possible or practical in 2015. The LW team deserve some credit for this but I'd like to see such tools developed inhouse.

SBowie
05-05-2018, 03:53 PM
i mean its 4 month after the release and instead of capitalizing on the release with examples training etc, they already start to advertise the next version.Oh for heaven's sake. Please post a link to show me the 'ad for the next version'.

I'm sure you're not referring to the conversation Andrew had with the people from PTZ Optics. Pressed to say something about LW, Andrew made a few entirely non-specific but enthusiastic comments about future developments. And, as I wrote in the other thread on this topic, the context of his comments need to be considered. Or we could blow them out of all proportion - yeah, let's do that.

His casual remarks hardly constitute an 'ad for the next version', and attempting to paint them as such is ridiculous. As if it needed to be demonstrated again, this is why we virtually never say anything substantive about future development, and why those actually involved seldom venture into the forums. Apparently now simply indicating any interest in its development or aspirations for its role in our plans is an 'ad' (or even a con job).

You know, there are those at NewTek who, for exactly this sort of reason, have long argued that we should just close these forums. Today, I wonder if they aren't correct.

hypersuperduper
05-05-2018, 04:12 PM
Wait! Are you suggesting that the internet is full of misinformation, exaggeration, and baseless conjecture????

prometheus
05-05-2018, 04:14 PM
You know, there are those at NewTek who, for exactly this sort of reason, have long argued that we should just close these forums. Today, I wonder if they aren't correct.

They are not, itīs just some of the newtek frustration that takes a stronghold, while understandable...shutting down a forum to exclude all communication would be a highly excessive move, then again I think that statement is more of a frustration :)
Unless facebook or other media somehow would filter all that speculation etc...count my participation on Facebook out of the equation.

- - - Updated - - -


Wait! Are you suggesting that the internet is full of misinformation, exaggeration, and baseless conjecture????

Itīs all true, all is alternative facts in a quantum reality. :)

SBowie
05-05-2018, 04:28 PM
...shutting down a forum to exclude all communication would be a highly excessive move, then again I think that statement is more of a frustrationI have never personally agreed with the idea, but I am certainly not exaggerating.

I have had to defend the continuation of the forums repeatedly over the years. Maintaining them is a time consuming exercise, and every time I start to think "Great, the tone has become more civil, and most current members are using the forums for their intended purpose", we wind up off on one of these silly tangents where someone takes something trivial, blows it out of all proportion, and those who never miss an opportunity for a jab rise to the occasion once more. I am seriously questioning whether my positive view of the value of the LW forums might be obsolete.

shrox
05-05-2018, 04:35 PM
I have never personally agreed with the idea, but I am certainly not exaggerating.

I have had to defend the continuation of the forums repeatedly over the years. Maintaining them is a time consuming exercise, and every time I start to think "Great, the tone has become more civil, and most current members are using the forums for their intended purpose", we wind up off on one of these silly tangents where someone takes something trivial, blows it out of all proportion, and those who never miss an opportunity for a jab rise to the occasion once more. I am seriously questioning whether my positive view of the value of the LW forums might be obsolete.

I concur, if you are here just to complain and whine, go away.

prometheus
05-05-2018, 04:38 PM
I have never personally agreed with the idea, but I am certainly not exaggerating.

I have had to defend the continuation of the forums repeatedly over the years. Maintaining them is a time consuming exercise, and every time I start to think "Great, the tone has become more civil, and most current members are using the forums for their intended purpose", we wind up off on one of these silly tangents where someone takes something trivial, blows it out of all proportion, and those who never miss an opportunity for a jab rise to the occasion once more. I am seriously questioning whether my positive view of the value of the LW forums might be obsolete.

Well...You defending it, is a good thing, but if it really has been under such debate withing newtek to shut it down, depending on which people and how many, that would be seriously worrying.
No communication at all, nor providing a forum for people to engage in interesting topics, helping etc..that I seriously believe would kill lightwave off as well as other products...and that is Seriously not a joke.
If I had no forum to go to...I actually think I would give up on the products which it pertains, there are other products and forums that doesnīt fear communication.

Havenīt newtek learned what little and hardly any communication does to peoples trust in a company?

- - - Updated - - -


I concur, if you are here just to complain and whine, go away.

Thatīs a different story.

SBowie
05-05-2018, 04:42 PM
p.s., I am not saying that NewTek (or LW3DG) has not fallen significantly short at times, nor have I ever. But there are good reasons my car's windshield is a lot bigger than its rearview mirror. There are certainly reasons why one might reasonably question our collective judgement in the past, and no doubt there will be valid reasons to raise questions again in future. But it is bone-wearying tiresome and also counter-productive for a few people to leap on every little opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill, dredging up every real or perceived misstep endlessly, and frankly often with completely wrong interpretations of what went down in the past.

prometheus
05-05-2018, 05:16 PM
p.s., I am not saying that NewTek (or LW3DG) has not fallen significantly short at times, nor have I ever. But there are good reasons my car's windshield is a lot bigger than its rearview mirror. There are certainly reasons why one might reasonably question our collective judgement in the past, and no doubt there will be valid reasons to raise questions again in future. But it is bone-wearying tiresome and also counter-productive for a few people to leap on every little opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill, dredging up every real or perceived misstep endlessly, and frankly often with completely wrong interpretations of what went down in the past.

Solution if you do not have time and it is to frustrating to answer and correct them, BANN Them, Bann them all to h...
Censorship towards those who do not deal with facts :D

vpii
05-05-2018, 06:17 PM
You know, there are those at NewTek who, for exactly this sort of reason, have long argued that we should just close these forums. Today, I wonder if they aren't correct.

I Hope you never close down your this website as long time users such as myself (1.0) come to read about developments in Lightwave. You have some problem users from I gather just reading posts that are feeling entitled from your core days that complain a lot. I see Lightwave moving in a positive direction with opening up there code to 3rd party. That alone is well worth the upgrade to 2018. I have watched over the years Mr. S Bowie and you have a lot of patience's not to just ban as soon as you see pattern offenders.

SBowie
05-05-2018, 06:31 PM
... Censorship towards those who do not deal with facts :DSlippery slope. Mature self-moderation is vastly superior. In a lot of cases, it takes little more than not stating either supposition or opinion as if it were fact.

I've been part of many online communities, and appreciate how valuable they can be. But, even with recent improvement, this one has long been the most challenging one of all. There has been a long line of dedicated trolls in these forums, not to say everyone who ever raised a complaint is a troll; but this fact has certainly driven many away from the community. Being honest, it's about as good now as it's ever been, but even at that it's still disheartening to read at times. "Oh look, a possible misstep, bug, delay, zit or wart - light the torches, it's time to pile on!". Good grief.

shrox
05-05-2018, 06:52 PM
Slippery slope. Mature self-moderation is vastly superior...

I fully concur.

shrox
05-05-2018, 08:07 PM
One main reason I don't post many questions or comments about Lightwave itself much is because of nonhelpful answers, like another software could do it better, use X-product instead, etc. Not that long ago there were Lightwave gurus offering help and support that no other forum could dream of, now many do little but bemoan it. You don't like Lightwave as much anymore, we get. Can't you still share your expertise in Lightwave with those that still do like it, people like me?

Steve is our advocate, and we make tougher for him if we make him police the forum, rather than just run and moderate it. We are all obviously smart and talented people, I'd like to see more of that.

Not sure if I should have posted this, and tarnish my sterling record, well since 2009 anyway...

jeric_synergy
05-05-2018, 08:20 PM
The LW team deserve some credit for this but I'd like to see such tools developed inhouse.
Well, the credit is CERTAINLY their's for extending the infrastructure in a way that makes those add-on possible.

OTOH, while I'd welcome native functionality (I'm as cheap, or cheaper, than anybody) I'd say: third party people have distinguished themselves in giving us tools that work EXTREMELY well, and perhaps show a greater knowledge of actual production issues. Look at the recent torrent of useful utilities from Oliver alone. It's possible that the wisest strategy is for LWG to concentrate on robust and flexible infrastructure, while maintaining good relationships with third party producers who are FOCUSED on very specific problems.

How long have we been requesting corrective morphs? Five months after 2018 is released, Metamorphic is released. And it looks like it would not have been possible before.

While I certainly have many issues with LW/LWM's design, especially the LHF all over Modeler, it may be that this is the correct play, the correct allocation of resources. In-house folk build strong foundations, plugin writers get to concentrate on the issues that interest them, using these new and stronger foundations.

Now if only someone would rationalize LWM's Layers panel.

Snosrap
05-05-2018, 08:33 PM
I Hope you never close down your this website as long time users such as myself (1.0) come to read about developments in Lightwave. You have some problem users from I gather just reading posts that are feeling entitled from your core days that complain a lot. I see Lightwave moving in a positive direction with opening up there code to 3rd party. That alone is well worth the upgrade to 2018. I have watched over the years Mr. S Bowie and you have a lot of patience's not to just ban as soon as you see pattern offenders.

Yeah I'd hate to see them go too. I come to see whats happening and ask and help on the occasional question. Community is important. Unfortunately NT doesn't seem interested in investing in it. They need to restructure it and bring it up to date (Lightwave 11 Gallery :)) and hire a LW evangelist. Basically they need to invest in LW and the latest round of layoffs seems like just the opposite. Granted a steady flow of income is needed to keep things afloat and a three year update cycle was a bit long, but surely NT HQ understood the circumstances of this long cycle and to dump people just as the ship was righting seems somewhat nuts.

Snosrap
05-05-2018, 08:43 PM
One main reason I don't post many questions or comments about Lightwave itself much is because of nonhelpful answers, like another software could do it better, use X-product instead, etc. Not that long ago there were Lightwave gurus offering help and support that no other forum could dream of,

I do what I can to help - it's just that I don't know much. :) But I get what your saying about "use X-product instead". One guy in particular who always brings up Modo - he's seems like a decent chap, but come on. :) I'm okay with bringing up other apps when your working in conjunction with LW to solve a problem. But the "why are you still using LW" comments need to go. Those people need to go if you ask me.

hrgiger
05-05-2018, 09:02 PM
One guy in particular who always brings up Modo - he's seems like a decent chap, but come on. :) I'm okay with bringing up other apps when your working in conjunction with LW to solve a problem. But the "why are you still using LW" comments need to go. Those people need to go if you ask me.

I'll assume you mean me. I don't recommend to anyone they use Modo or anything else. What works for me is just that and I expect people are functional enough to figure out what works for them. My comments in regards to Modo have mainly been about what NT has not done about modeling in LW in the last 20 years. Its downright embarassing. They can give out more modeler surveys or have Andrew Cross talk about the 'amazing' things happening in LW development but NT has flapped its lips before about actions that never happened. When they have something to show, then we can talk about it then.

SBowie
05-05-2018, 09:05 PM
... and to dump people just as the ship was righting seems somewhat nuts.This is the kind of supposition posed as fact that I was referring to. There have been a few personnel changes in the last 6 months or so, yes. But imagining you understand how these things came about, what they mean, or what their effect might be is just presumptuous.

Snosrap
05-05-2018, 10:11 PM
This is the kind of supposition posed as fact that I was referring to. There have been a few personnel changes in the last 6 months or so, yes. But imagining you understand how these things came about, what they mean, or what their effect might be is just presumptuous.

Sometimes things are what they appear to be - and of course sometimes they are not. :) What is it that every HR director at most firms preach to the managers on staff when it comes to sexual harassment and other employee issues - perception is reality. :)

Anyway things are looking better than ever on the LW front. Bug fixes on a regular basis and some great new plugins by some genius 3rd parties that all go along with the fantastic new render engine. Times are good LW users. :)

Nicolas Jordan
05-05-2018, 11:10 PM
I feel this forum is still very important even with other social media sites like Facebook the forums offer a sense of community and a format that Facebook can't. Social Media is similar but just not the same as a good forum. If this forum was ever shut down I can easily see someone starting one up for Lightwave. I remember many years ago these forums were way worse than they are today. Things are generally much more civil on here these days for the most part that I've noticed.

Ernest
05-05-2018, 11:12 PM
If it does get to that point of closing some forums, can we please keep at least the LW 3rd party?
How else are we going to find out about the new plugins getting released, or the new OD tools added to the arsenal, or all other updates and patches?
I don't recall seeing any troll/salty posts in that forum.

It's not like if we refused to use Facebook when all the privacy breaches were suppositions, we're going to start using it now that they've been confirmed as realities.

tischbein3
05-06-2018, 12:58 AM
Oh for heaven's sake. Please post a link to show me the 'ad for the next version'.

I'm sure you're not referring to the conversation Andrew had with the people from PTZ Optics. Pressed to say something about LW, Andrew made a few entirely non-specific but enthusiastic comments about future developments. And, as I wrote in the other thread on this topic, the context of his comments need to be considered. Or we could blow them out of all proportion - yeah, let's do that.

Sure I do, and I stand to this, that these talks about the new version ultimatively harm the current version. it has in the past and it does now. And I stand to the fact that Newtek fails to communicate the advantages the _current_ version has and that it has become worser from version to version. Newtek does not have William anymore who invest his time into demonstrating the potential of the tools at hand for free. New users need to be fetched and introduced to the workflow LW offers. Especially since lw is a entry level product into the 3d realm.

Yes I do see, Andrew beeing enthusiastic about the new version is ok, but for a potential new user wich do not have access to these features this message could be also read as:
- Current LightWave is not as innovative
- Wait for the next version

If this would just a single event I would also say I blew it out of proportion. But the whole last years it was all about the new version. Instead of harvesting the strenghts of the current version. Whats the use of a feature if half of your potential _new_ customers don't understand it ?

Maybe things look better with access to the closed beta (wich I do blame for the brain drain)



You know, there are those at NewTek who, for exactly this sort of reason, have long argued that we should just close these forums. Today, I wonder if they aren't correct.
Sure close it. The product will sell itself doesn't it ? People "somehow figure it out" doesn't they ? Communicating / salesmanship is something for toe dippers.

tischbein3
05-06-2018, 02:13 AM
If the team pull of things like instancing but with Unique instances for example, meaning a figure has several morphs to change it looks, but it only uses the original poly character, but before instanced ..it would fetch any level in between within the morph, for creating characters that doesnīt look the same, things like that I reckon would be a bit innovative if it isnīt already out ther :)
or why not rigs that performs motions based on AI, not using any motion capture data, but data based on how humans walk and move, and even how a horse is running..it would all be controlled within the AI based on research on how bones and ligaments actually is moving, but with a controll for setting up various motion it may contain.
Just brainstorming..

I strongly believe that today its less about new features per se (especially if you have a multi-application environment) but more on how accessible these are:
In short: how fast I can churn out the look I want in what time.

Thats also why I'm a bit on a rant mode on this thing. Except for modeling I'm pretty happy with LW's development, but you need to communicate those features.
I'm in no way a marketing expert, but the thing about 3d marketing I do know about is that it is all about getting enough high quality artwork affiliated with your product, so potential new users get interested in it.

An AI controlled rig will not have an impact if no one knows how to use it / there is no marketable results. Look how well it went with
endorphin.

prometheus
05-06-2018, 03:35 AM
I strongly believe that today its less about new features per se (especially if you have a multi-application environment) but more on how accessible these are:
In short: how fast I can churn out the look I want in what time.

Thats also why I'm a bit on a rant mode on this thing. Except for modeling I'm pretty happy with LW's development, but you need to communicate those features.
I'm in no way a marketing expert, but the thing about 3d marketing I do know about is that it is all about getting enough high quality artwork affiliated with your product, so potential new users get interested in it.

An AI controlled rig will not have an impact if no one knows how to use it / there is no marketable results. Look how well it went with
endorphin.

Endorphin...AH, liked that one, and may even have purchased it if it wasnīt so expensive...that was more about cost for the the softare and the fact it didnīt have stamina to stay on the market I think, at least from my standpoint on taking a decision for a purchase.

I sort of agree to your first line, that still doesnīt validate the term and the situation about less innovative, you can argue if Lightwave should focus on Innovative New unseen stuff...or simply have a strong backbone with what it got, and what it does lesser good today ..in order to catch up etc.

tischbein3
05-06-2018, 05:48 AM
Endorphin...AH, liked that one, and may even have purchased it if it wasnīt so expensive...that was more about cost for the the softare and the fact it didnīt have stamina to stay on the market I think, at least from my standpoint on taking a decision for a purchase.

Yeah price was also factor, agree



I sort of agree to your first line, that still doesnīt validate the term and the situation about less innovative, you can argue if Lightwave should focus on Innovative New unseen stuff...or simply have a strong backbone with what it got, and what it does lesser good today ..in order to catch up etc.
Hey nothing wrong about beeing innovative, but I won't downplay the stuff wich was good in their previous releases. And sometimes having a hastle free workflow is much more appreciated in long term than a one shot killer feature.

Also I do think the times where you could create something like hypervoxels and beeing market leader for a few years are gone.

Kaptive
05-06-2018, 06:02 AM
One main reason I don't post many questions or comments about Lightwave itself much is because of nonhelpful answers, like another software could do it better, use X-product instead, etc. Not that long ago there were Lightwave gurus offering help and support that no other forum could dream of, now many do little but bemoan it. You don't like Lightwave as much anymore, we get. Can't you still share your expertise in Lightwave with those that still do like it, people like me?

Steve is our advocate, and we make tougher for him if we make him police the forum, rather than just run and moderate it. We are all obviously smart and talented people, I'd like to see more of that.

Not sure if I should have posted this, and tarnish my sterling record, well since 2009 anyway...

Shrox, it's actually a good post and on the money.

robertoortiz
05-06-2018, 06:54 AM
I strongly believe that today its less about new features per se (especially if you have a multi-application environment) but more on how accessible these are:
In short: how fast I can churn out the look I want in what time.

Thats also why I'm a bit on a rant mode on this thing. Except for modeling I'm pretty happy with LW's development, but you need to communicate those features.
I'm in no way a marketing expert, but the thing about 3d marketing I do know about is that it is all about getting enough high quality artwork affiliated with your product, so potential new users get interested in it.

An AI controlled rig will not have an impact if no one knows how to use it / there is no marketable results. Look how well it went with
endorphin.

This is why a lot of 3d development is tide in with short/ movie production.
During the 90s PIXAR used their short films as test beds that led into Toy Story.
Also in the 90s Maya animation tools were polished during the development of Bingo the Clown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h-O1R7iXqk

The now forgotten movie "The Wild" was also used as a testbed to develop Houdini's Animation pipeline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S5d-I-1jvc

Hell the Blender foundation has been doing this recently with
Big Buck Bunny and Cosmos Laundromat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drLdsOnh7nI


More recently concept artist Goro Fujita has been helping the development of VR animation tools, and he not a freaking animator.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=goro+fujita




I always have believe that if NT wants to improve LW it needs to get NON LW users in front of it. Plan vanilla Graphic Designers, Filmmakers and heck even stop motion/traditional animators, and see what they say about the user experience.
Encourage them to do SHORTS using Lightwave and LISTEN TO THEM.

Why not a shorts initiative that pays 5k using LW ONLY for a 1-2 minute short, donve ofer a week and have as part of the rules that NT get USER FEEDBACK. You could even do this as an invitation only event. there is certainly ENOUGH talent in Austin that you could pull this off.

TheLexx
05-06-2018, 07:17 AM
Endorphin...AH, liked that one, and may even have purchased it if it wasnīt so expensive...that was more about cost for the the softare and the fact it didnīt have stamina to stay on the market I think, at least from my standpoint on taking a decision for a purchase.

To me, Endorphin was the internet equivalent of the unicorn - I used to see references to it and the odd tutorial listed for it, but never saw the software itself or knew what exactly it did. From a purely observational viewpoint, 2017 seemed to be see a few "reverse-extinctions" - Hexagon, Silo and LW itself. Even Curvy 3D ver 4.0 (http://www.curvy3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3033) has now been announced. I have no idea why I find that so amusing - the pure mythos of it I guess. :)

SBowie
05-06-2018, 07:34 AM
Sure I do, and I stand to this, that these talks about the new version ultimatively harm the current version.You are free to do so. I could even have agreed with you that discussing future development can be misplaced (and in fact Andrew himself is absolutely opposed to doing so) if there was any basis in fact for to claim there is (or ever was) an "ad" for a "new version" in the first place. But instead, you have leapt to a conclusion, and in doing so attempting to makeyour point based on a fallacy.

Fourteen minutes into an interview completely about our video line by representatives of a company that makes video products, and following two minutes of talking about how important video, and in particular, making it accessible to everyone is to NewTek, Tess (who I truly suspect had never heard of LightWave before) passed on a random chat room question asking about any LightWave announcements.

To this, Andrew clearly said:

"I have not made any LW announcements"
Then he repeated that a second time.
Then he said "I'm not going to say what we're working on"
Then he allowed himself to go just a bit beyond this "I will say this ..." and went on to talk briefly in completely opaque but enthusiastic terms about some very cool stuff that "we are working on with LightWave"
Then he repeats that there is no announcement.
After this, he reminisced about LW's legacy a bit, showing his clear appreciation for its contributions to the industry.

This is exactly what I mean about context, and baseless assumptions. A little discernment is helpful. Note the underlined word in item 4 above. There can be a very big difference in meaning between speaking about "what we are doing with LightWave" and saying "what we are doing to LightWave". Seriously, what are the chances that, if we wanted to "advertise" a new "version" of LW, it would be done in the above off-the-cuff manner, in a discussion about video, at a video trade show, where we not only didn't show LW, but we specifically said there was nothing to announce? In fact, where in that entire video does Andrew even use the word "version", save when discussing NDI?

I have said that I don't know much about LW development ... about that, I only get the odd glimpse. But I do know very well what we (the video group) are doing with it, because it my team is intimately involved in the effort. And I know with absolute certainty that Andrew is very, very excited about it. So when I said earlier, 'pay attention to context', take that suggestion to heart. I don't drop hints lightly.

There was nothing in this video to legitimately make anyone think we were 'advertising a new version of LW'; a discriminating listener taking context into account might even have refined his or her speculation accordingly. But of course, we are in the LW forum here, where careful consideration isn't even a concept, so rampant discord flows from the barest snippets of information like fake news spews from the internet.

(The next thing that usually happens in a case like this is someone will pop up to say "This is all NewTek's fault because this kind of thing happens when you don't take positive steps to communicate. Nature abhors a vacuum. We want a roadmap! We want a roadmap!" Which, if you stop and think for just about a nanosecond, is completely the opposite of what tischbein is saying in the first place. His complaint is we should be talking about what we have, not what we might have in the future. And on this point, if perhaps nothing else, we agree. As has often been said, 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't.")

prometheus
05-06-2018, 07:52 AM
To me, Endorphin was the internet equivalent of the unicorn - I used to see references to it and the odd tutorial listed for it, but never saw the software itself or knew what exactly it did.

Personally..I found out about Endorphin through various vfx articles, googled it and went to the site and downloade demos, so I could see how it worked and performed, just wondering why you didnīt...if it by any chance wasnīt anything of interest then I understand.
What I would have liked to though...is to try fbx imports to lightwave, and I think that was a limit in the demo which also put me off a bit, endorphin as standalone without any option to try it with other software is a bit of no use really.

TheLexx
05-06-2018, 08:42 AM
....just wondering why you didnīt...if it by any chance wasnīt anything of interest then I understand.Was intrigued from a distance - I think it was by NaturalMotion, but didn't seem to be on their website at the time. I get distracted easily, and am discovering in practice that I haven't explored LW anywhere near enough to go software hopping too much, but general reading is interesting. :)

prometheus
05-06-2018, 08:55 AM
Was intrigued from a distance - I think it was by NaturalMotion, but didn't seem to be on their website at the time. I get distracted easily, and am discovering in practice that I haven't explored LW anywhere near enough to go software hopping too much, but general reading is interesting. :)

I understand you, I was about to try fusion 360, and went to the site since I heard it was free..but then found out the demo was a limited trial, but in small text..you could check if you are eligable for a free working non limited non commercial edition, then I stopped there and didnīt bother if they wrestle in their versions like that, depending on personal preferences..we all may loose interest based on certain factors or ways the software is marketed, you do not want to get distracted and loose interest by vague information etc.

I hope..and I think newtek does provide demos and information in a good way...making it easy to find download and try, currently I have had an issue with the modo trial..which demo period ended without I even had the chance to try , sent them 3 mails without them getting in touch...thus, I lost interest for now, eventually when their next update I might have the time and try it, at least now I am aware of that their demoversion starts ticking the date you download it..unlike Lightwave which starts when you install it.

Edited..just checked my mail, and indeed got a better reply from foundry regarding modo trial, they confirm that the trial period starts ticking once I sign up for the trial, and they agree on my advice on making it more clear on their website, so they are about to contact their web team about that.

I didnīt got a new trial link, just an advice to check if my trial was older than the newest release..which I currently do not know, or simply sign up for the inexpensive modie indie version, but that is not an option until I have tried the demo.

Sorry for the slightly offtopic, it may serve as advice on how to not market Demo trials though :)
Then out of the blue...why not some kind of indie version for lightwave? not sure if that may be applicable for Lightwave and if that would gain users? just thinking since modo, houdini etc does it.

tischbein3
05-06-2018, 12:13 PM
I always have believe that if NT wants to improve LW it needs to get NON LW users in front of it. Plan vanilla Graphic Designers, Filmmakers and heck even stop motion/traditional animators, and see what they say about the user experience.
Encourage them to do SHORTS using Lightwave and LISTEN TO THEM.


Maybe some kind of approval system, where people can file in their project and get lw for free, as long as they give some kind of monthly feedback ?

tischbein3
05-06-2018, 12:35 PM
(The next thing that usually happens in a case like this is someone will pop up to say "This is all NewTek's fault because this kind of thing happens when you don't take positive steps to communicate. Nature abhors a vacuum. We want a roadmap! We want a roadmap!" Which, if you stop and think for just about a nanosecond, is completely the opposite of what tischbein is saying in the first place. His complaint is we should be talking about what we have, not what we might have in the future. And on this point, if perhaps nothing else, we agree. As has often been said, 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't.")

Steve, there is a difference showing of a new feature or a "roadmap" (I know this is not going to happen) of a coming version, and saying "we want to be as innovative as we once were" 4 month after the release of a product _he was asked about_. While a lot people in the forum still figuring out how to deal with the render engine of the current version.

And _again_ its not about Andrews comment per se, but it falls in line with a tendency I saw in the last few years. Maybe my perception is wrong, could be. Maybe its a language problem - pretty much possible. But maybe I'm not the only one who got the same message from this. And maybe the intention of my posts is to point out that this "they figure it out by themself" strategy and "wait until you see the next version" marketing objective is not very good in attracting new users or communicating fundamental changes. And therefore a lot of the development effort is actually wasted, -especially on the innovative stuff. (IKBoost syndrome)

Don't get me wrong, those who did the manual / video tuts do have my deepest respect, especially since some of those are not trained in doing so.

Wickedpup
05-06-2018, 01:17 PM
p.s., I am not saying that NewTek (or LW3DG) has not fallen significantly short at times, nor have I ever. But there are good reasons my car's windshield is a lot bigger than its rearview mirror. There are certainly reasons why one might reasonably question our collective judgement in the past, and no doubt there will be valid reasons to raise questions again in future. But it is bone-wearying tiresome and also counter-productive for a few people to leap on every little opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill, dredging up every real or perceived misstep endlessly, and frankly often with completely wrong interpretations of what went down in the past.
Not directed at you, SBowie but when I read what you wrote about the rearview mirror I could not avoid thinking about how some people in this place react to the word "Modo" after close to 20 years...... :foreheads

SBowie
05-06-2018, 01:20 PM
Not directed at you, SBowie but when I read what you wrote about the windshield/rearview mirror I could not avoid start thinking about how some people in this place react to the word "Modo" after close to 20 years...... :foreheadsPersonally, it affects me not at all, apart from being as irrelevant to the purposes of this forum as Maya, C4D, etc. are.

Chuck
05-06-2018, 03:18 PM
Steve, there is a difference showing of a new feature or a "roadmap" (I know this is not going to happen) of a coming version, and saying "we want to be as innovative as we once were" 4 month after the release of a product _he was asked about_. While a lot people in the forum still figuring out how to deal with the render engine of the current version.

And _again_ its not about Andrews comment per se, but it falls in line with a tendency I saw in the last few years. Maybe my perception is wrong, could be. Maybe its a language problem - pretty much possible. But maybe I'm not the only one who got the same message from this. And maybe the intention of my posts is to point out that this "they figure it out by themself" strategy and "wait until you see the next version" marketing objective is not very good in attracting new users or communicating fundamental changes. And therefore a lot of the development effort is actually wasted, -especially on the innovative stuff. (IKBoost syndrome)

Don't get me wrong, those who did the manual / video tuts do have my deepest respect, especially since some of those are not trained in doing so.

Yes, I think there is a language problem in this instance. You are not wrong that too many of our marketing communications about the product in past generations have made what's coming in LightWave the focus instead of what's in LightWave now. That in turn has in effect trained a lot of the community to also focus that way, and many of them wish us to persist with that focus, but we will not be doing that. Andrew's off-the-cuff reply to the LightWave question is neither part of that nor even remotely near being that type of behavior. And I would sincerely hope that with due consideration you might decide that the fellow at the top of the company setting its direction having some enthusiasm for the product you happen to be using is not a bad thing, nor is his publicly admitting that there is active development on the product. It's not an ad, it's not a formal marketing statement, it's just an informal answer to a impromptu question, and it's simply not correct to make anything more of it than that.

NewTek marketing is focused now on selling LightWave as it is. NewTek will talk about versions of the product only as we release them, or are at least in final preparations to release. NewTek is working on developing more learning materials for the current version.

balkanman
05-06-2018, 03:30 PM
I have been away from LW for about 15 years, and looking over LW2018 I miss any basic maintenance, eg the cameras in real camera settings are at least 10 years old ( the newest ) or its not possible to apply a shortcut to the eg bullet dynamic window as its just not in the list or in the list for edit menu; to me as noob it seems very easy to renew some lists, its just have to be done.
I am in LW since the first release for PC, 4 (or maybe 4.5) and what I remember LW wasnt treated like a unloved child what seems to be reality today.

PS: havent seen last post before writing

"..having some enthusiasm for the product .." exactly what I am missing^^

digimassa
05-06-2018, 03:59 PM
I just remembered my old username, so balkanman is outdated.
and to "having some enthusiasm for the product", just watched this mars rover, meshes in the shock absorbers ( or what this funny things are named) run out sideways and nobody cares, and alltogether you cannot build suspensions like in irl cars, just absorbers, its all just soso lala, so please dont use the words "...having some enthusiasm for the product ..." and "...the fellow at the top of the company.. "
in one sentence, or maybe you have a very special definition of enthusiasm,

50one
05-06-2018, 04:08 PM
The only issue I see here is that similarity to politician statements...

Guy beibg enthusiastic about a X product, saying there's some amazing stuff they working on and people will be blown away...

"No, that's not what he said, don't hope for too much, he was just enthusiastic..."

Seriously, wth is going on in here.

hypersuperduper
05-06-2018, 04:44 PM
This thread has metastasized. That’s what’s going on here.

SBowie
05-06-2018, 06:38 PM
Seriously, wth is going on in here.Same old thing. People take something out of context, and speculate wildly about what it might mean. Newtek says, no, that's not right. Everyone ignores this. Then, other people take issue with the speculation, and still other people complain that Newtek is opportunistically raising false hope based on nothing. Still more people wander in later, after things get sort of half sorted out, and start it all over again. Just another typical day in the forum.

shrox
05-06-2018, 08:33 PM
This thread has metastasized. That’s what’s going on here.

Stage 4 too.

devin
05-06-2018, 09:37 PM
NewTek is working on developing more learning materials for the current version.

I think this little nugget of info will make a lot of users happy. The eventual release of the training will help further restore faith in LW’s continued development and will go far in assisting with marketing the product to potential new users as well. Thanks for sharing this, Chuck.

jeric_synergy
05-06-2018, 10:45 PM
NewTek is working on developing more learning materials for the current version.
Chuck, this is ALWAYS a Good Thing. I was very cheered when the various Cody videos released, because it clarifies a lot of things that might seem self-obvious inside the offices, but not so much out here.

Conversely, I was quite disappointed that was not an on-going effort.

A monthly schedule of educational releases shouldn't be TOO onerous. Monthly, pick the thing that most seems to be confusing users, or neglected by users, and give it a whirl.

samurai_x
05-06-2018, 11:49 PM
Soft like Charmin...

Julez4001
05-07-2018, 12:57 AM
I have long said that the people who complain and ****** and moan even after the new LW come out will continue to do so.
No one has fully taken advantages of the 2015.x cycle let alone the new 2018.x version but they still whine about the stupid merits of integration and produce nothing and offer no help.
LIGHTWIKI Facebook board is the place for folks to get help now. I offer and recieve it. The whiners show up there a little but I dont think ppl will suffer them long.

How about use the friggin software, man. If you are in production then its agreat tool. If you are feature matching to other apps then you will whine indefinite.

tischbein3
05-07-2018, 02:39 AM
Yes, I think there is a language problem in this instance. You are not wrong that too many of our marketing communications about the product in past generations have made what's coming in LightWave the focus instead of what's in LightWave now. That in turn has in effect trained a lot of the community to also focus that way, and many of them wish us to persist with that focus, but we will not be doing that.
Thats the thing my fuzz was all about, or to be more detailed: neglecting the current version marketing and training wise for the sake of a new unreleased future version. Andrews remark might not be intended in that way, but from my pov it fit into this. Since you clarified your strategy on this I'll try to see his comments not in that light, and more on the positive side.
Thank you for take your time on this.



NewTek marketing is focused now on selling LightWave as it is. NewTek will talk about versions of the product only as we release them, or are at least in final preparations to release. NewTek is working on developing more learning materials for the current version.
Thats really great to hear. Thanks !!

mav3rick
05-07-2018, 03:54 AM
...have to admit i got a bit curious


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc


16:40 into the video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFe7WlnPMc&feature=youtu.be&t=16m40s


and hey, no speculation. (if you can resist)

yea yea we heard that in past.. amazing, mind blowing , game changing, awesome, killer, cool... and loop that for past 20 years

Ztreem
05-07-2018, 03:59 AM
How about use the friggin software, man. If you are in production then its agreat tool. If you are feature matching to other apps then you will whine indefinite.

It's when you use it in production you realize that many workflows and tools is not very efficient and doesn't work very well and that missing features make your daily life harder instead of easier. We all do different things but for me doing a lot of visualisation and VR with CAD data the lack of vertex normal support in fbx is enough for me to not use Lw anymore.

fishhead
05-07-2018, 04:59 AM
guys, you all made your statements - can we now put it to a rest? please...
So much fuzz about a few vage sentences uttered by someone in a relaxed atmosphere chit-chatting. What was he supposed to reply: "no comment..."?!?
come on, guys... not much to see here - walk on...

50one
05-07-2018, 06:16 AM
:stumped:

50one
05-07-2018, 08:59 AM
:stumped:

Edit:

As in confused, thought this thread was quite positive and optimistic look at some cool statement made by someone who is close to Lw devs.

Obviously nothing set in stone, just some general indicator, but cool nevertheless to hear.

I'm fully aware (and prolly everyone here) this wasn't an official developer statement, just a small nugget from behind the scenes, that not necessarily will come to fruition for whatever reason, or could be a total Joke on behalf of Dr Cross who knows, we're not 4 yr old, besides the dude said nothing specific.

Anyhow, bit surprised by hostility, no one in this thread stated that they're taking his words for granted, yet we're being reminded not to set our hopes to high, it probably wasn't even about LW at all (WTH, the guy clearly says LW LOL) and generally gtfo cause we're moaners and waste times on forums, which can be closed anytime.


So, the conclusion is, you can't be happy about software future....and you can't be pessimistic about it too because in both cases you're a moaner who is not using the software and Lightwiki page is so much better :D.

LOL:D

SBowie
05-07-2018, 09:29 AM
Without any possibility of contradiction, some clearly took Andrew's comments as a claim that LW was going to knock the 3D industry on its keester in the near future. Guess what - that's unrealistic, and not what he said. Not surprisingly, some mocked (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?157006-LightWave-Update&p=1545333&viewfull=1#post1545333)this (wrong) idea. So, the conclusion is "be reasonable".

sadkkf
05-07-2018, 11:48 AM
You are free to do so. I could even have agreed with you that discussing future development can be misplaced (and in fact Andrew himself is absolutely opposed to doing so) if there was any basis in fact for to claim there is (or ever was) an "ad" for a "new version" in the first place. But instead, you have leapt to a conclusion, and in doing so attempting to makeyour point based on a fallacy.

Fourteen minutes into an interview completely about our video line by representatives of a company that makes video products, and following two minutes of talking about how important video, and in particular, making it accessible to everyone is to NewTek, Tess (who I truly suspect had never heard of LightWave before) passed on a random chat room question asking about any LightWave announcements.

To this, Andrew clearly said:

"I have not made any LW announcements"
Then he repeated that a second time.
Then he said "I'm not going to say what we're working on"
Then he allowed himself to go just a bit beyond this "I will say this ..." and went on to talk briefly in completely opaque but enthusiastic terms about some very cool stuff that "we are working on with LightWave"
Then he repeats that there is no announcement.
After this, he reminisced about LW's legacy a bit, showing his clear appreciation for its contributions to the industry.

This is exactly what I mean about context, and baseless assumptions. A little discernment is helpful. Note the underlined word in item 4 above. There can be a very big difference in meaning between speaking about "what we are doing with LightWave" and saying "what we are doing to LightWave". Seriously, what are the chances that, if we wanted to "advertise" a new "version" of LW, it would be done in the above off-the-cuff manner, in a discussion about video, at a video trade show, where we not only didn't show LW, but we specifically said there was nothing to announce? In fact, where in that entire video does Andrew even use the word "version", save when discussing NDI?

I have said that I don't know much about LW development ... about that, I only get the odd glimpse. But I do know very well what we (the video group) are doing with it, because it my team is intimately involved in the effort. And I know with absolute certainty that Andrew is very, very excited about it. So when I said earlier, 'pay attention to context', take that suggestion to heart. I don't drop hints lightly.

There was nothing in this video to legitimately make anyone think we were 'advertising a new version of LW'; a discriminating listener taking context into account might even have refined his or her speculation accordingly. But of course, we are in the LW forum here, where careful consideration isn't even a concept, so rampant discord flows from the barest snippets of information like fake news spews from the internet.

(The next thing that usually happens in a case like this is someone will pop up to say "This is all NewTek's fault because this kind of thing happens when you don't take positive steps to communicate. Nature abhors a vacuum. We want a roadmap! We want a roadmap!" Which, if you stop and think for just about a nanosecond, is completely the opposite of what tischbein is saying in the first place. His complaint is we should be talking about what we have, not what we might have in the future. And on this point, if perhaps nothing else, we agree. As has often been said, 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't.")


It's days like this I'm glad I don't have your job...at least this part of it. ;)

shrox
05-07-2018, 12:09 PM
141594

SBowie
05-07-2018, 12:19 PM
It's days like this I'm glad I don't have your job...at least this part of it. ;)I could pass on the daily floggings, too, but at least my co-workers are great. :)