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jaxtone
05-01-2018, 02:31 AM
Hi all!

At last I found some spare time to install and open up my version of Lightwave 3D 2018 and agree on what many wavers told me about the fact that some parts could be experiences a totally new software to examine since I still was using my old v. 9.6. and never updated to the 2015 version. Wow, what great news that the bullet have so many presets and that the interface still feels familiar.

I almost never use Lightwave for the render of a total scenery. I guess it was because of time limits and deadlines that the combo with After FX and other vfx suites made things easier and definitely decrease project time as a total. So honestly I have always preferred Lightwave´s sharp and fast render process compared to XSI´s, Maya´s or 3D-Max. Especially for simple scenes or detailed object renders that have been much faster than the others and even if the native motion blur and DOF in Lightwave have been a joke when talking of how much time they have ripped from my life the problem ended when I combined VFX software and LW.

I guess that I am still a rookie when talking of the new version that probably needs a lot of twist and tweaking to make things faster but please, take back the fast render options for simple scenes.

I am kind of chocked of how much slower the new version is compared to my LW 9.6!

erikals
05-01-2018, 04:08 AM
it is difficult / impossible to judge this based on what you wrote.

provide:
rendertimes
rendersettings
lightsetup / types
images
etc, etc...
or even the scene files


that said, the new engine has better quality and is more complex
it doesn't take shortcuts like the old engine

for speed, consider Octane

prometheus
05-01-2018, 04:43 AM
Hi all!

At last I found some spare time to install and open up my version of Lightwave 3D 2018 and agree on what many wavers told me about the fact that some parts could be experiences a totally new software to examine since I still was using my old v. 9.6. and never updated to the 2015 version. Wow, what great news that the bullet have so many presets and that the interface still feels familiar.

I almost never use Lightwave for the render of a total scenery. I guess it was because of time limits and deadlines that the combo with After FX and other vfx suites made things easier and definitely decrease project time as a total. So honestly I have always preferred Lightwave´s sharp and fast render process compared to XSI´s, Maya´s or 3D-Max. Especially for simple scenes or detailed object renders that have been much faster than the others and even if the native motion blur and DOF in Lightwave have been a joke when talking of how much time they have ripped from my life the problem ended when I combined VFX software and LW.

I guess that I am still a rookie when talking of the new version that probably needs a lot of twist and tweaking to make things faster but please, take back the fast render options for simple scenes.

I am kind of chocked of how much slower the new version is compared to my LW 9.6!

9.6? don´t think so...you should have tried 2015, and when talking speed, especially the GI speed was fast in interpolated mode..as for 2018, I myself can not get that speed with interpolated mode in 2018 as I had in 2015, and one important issue is the VPR refreshment with interpolated GI which simply is too slow compared to 2015, tried a lot of reducing settings to get a fast refresment, but at no luck.
Brute force GI though in 2018 seem to be much faster in 2018 than 2015 ..for interpolated mode there seem to have been more options to increase speed in 2015 with multipliers etc, which seem to be gone in 2018.

MonroePoteet
05-01-2018, 11:03 AM
You might wander through the feedback in the fairly extensive thread evaluating and improving performance of Paul Boland's scene. Here are several of the posts which provide specific advice on improving LW2018 render performance:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156573-Show-me-that-Lightwave-2018-s-new-render-engine-is-a-worthy-successor-to-2015&p=1541609&viewfull=1#post1541609
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156573-Show-me-that-Lightwave-2018-s-new-render-engine-is-a-worthy-successor-to-2015&p=1541686&viewfull=1#post1541686
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156573-Show-me-that-Lightwave-2018-s-new-render-engine-is-a-worthy-successor-to-2015&p=1541611&viewfull=1#post1541611
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156573-Show-me-that-Lightwave-2018-s-new-render-engine-is-a-worthy-successor-to-2015&p=1541625&viewfull=1#post1541625
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?156573-Show-me-that-Lightwave-2018-s-new-render-engine-is-a-worthy-successor-to-2015&p=1541646&viewfull=1#post1541646

mTp

P.S. It might be nice to have a locked (i.e. only SBowie can add stuff!) Sticky Thread entitled "LW2018 Performance Hints" where pointers to this type of advice can be consolidated.

jaxtone
05-01-2018, 12:58 PM
Hi!

I am of course not talking of advanced render settings for GI or Volumetrics, Opacity, Motion blur or DOF. I just wanted to render a preview of a sphere on a plane to see in which way LW 2018 has improved from LW 9.6 when talking of faster render processes. If anyone tries to convince me of that 2018 is faster when it comes to fast pre-renders of easy built up scenes I just have one thing to say, "are you trying to kid me"?

What happened to the crispy clear fast render by default option that made a pre shot in seconds doable in earlier versions? I found it better to start with the easiest and fastest previews and build up the render setting piece by piece to reach a desired level. It feels kind of reversed to do it the opposite way. Don´t wanna build the house from the rooftop and downwards. Its definitely the wrong way to go.

If its not possible to make a fast pre-render by pressing F9 to get a view of what and where you are going in a simple scene with a sphere and a plane, isn't it at least a little funny that the PR text tells you that Lightwave 2018 have a new and faster render engine? The render passes for such easy scenes are insanely slow compared to LW 9.6.

What I get is shadows that contains incredibly many dots and look like a total mess if not the render settings reach so high levels that the render times make me pass out. What the heck is the meaning of that?

I would gladly learn how the advanced settings work out later but for now I just wanted to get a traditional LW preview of a simple scenes in seconds, not educate myself and become a render monkey by pressing F9

jaxtone
05-01-2018, 01:00 PM
MonroePoteet!

I read some of these threads earlier and found them to advanced or that they included more questions than answers.

This link is kind of dead since the film clip connected to the link is dead!
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....=1#post1541609

MonroePoteet
05-01-2018, 03:16 PM
Well, I think the new rendering engine has a different primary focus, "physics based rendering" (which definitely has a learning curve), not "a fast pre-render by pressing F9". There's a good Blender description of the new Principled BSDF and the physical-world model(s) on which it's built in that thread. Because it's more physical-world based, Principled BSDF surfaces (and derivatives of it, like Conductor, etc.) can have more complex computational requirements (i.e. slower) than a similar Standard surface.

If you want something akin to prior LW renders, I'd suggest turning off GI (CTRL-p, Global Illumination) and use Standard surfaces rather than the Principled BSDF surfaces.

The links I posted still work, and the suggestions I found informative. The original film posted on YouTube by Paul Boland referenced by that thread was a long, involved, mistaken approach to improving LW2018 rendering speed on a single interior scene. The film doesn't add anything at all to the conversation in that thread or the various performance tuning suggestions made there. In that thread, various scenes are posted for your obversation and analysis, both Paul Boland's original and then modified by others and himself.

Good luck!
mTp

jaxtone
05-02-2018, 12:29 AM
Hi Monroe and thanks for as usual a very clear and pedagogical answer!


I also believe that the new rendering engine has a different focus than to be just fast. What I do not get is why Newtek flash with a new and better "faster" system for rendering processes without mentioning this:

"Hey guys, by the way we found it funny to exclude the old fast and rough render options just because we now wanna leave the Lightwave tradition that were connected to a render solution that used to be way much faster than the competitors. I guess that tradition came out of the fact that Lightwave from scratch were more connected to TV-productions than 3D-studio that had an old render systems that really sucked. Well, times are still changing and I admit that I am to old to get turned on by extremely long render passes for doing the easiest of things in the 3D-world. During the years I have never experienced a long render process as a pleasure. That kind of enjoyment is more for technical aspects and seldom fits into the commercial projects I have been responsible for.

As far as I can see there are two different sides of the coin when talking of humans that work in the world of 3D. Both sides are of course essential for the software companies but when its to much of one side the other feels abandoned. I am not on the technical side and rather get get the plague than getting married with manuals. Sorry to be personal and sounds like a professional whiner but if one built his whole life on "trials and errors" its hard to change especially when you get so old that you feel the smell of "grim reaper" from behind :)

What might be a good but at the moment financially impossible solution would be to invest in a new and way much faster graphic card with additional nine machines to built a render farm Now this was not planned when I updated to Lightwave 3D 2018 and I feel a lack of disappointment when I read that it had a faster render method.

I guess I have to finish off my new showreel and get busy earning bucks for a new system and to now what your speed up the render processes it would be great to hear what kind of graphic boards and RAM do you guys work with to cut down render times? To be clear this question is more probably only for the ones of you that are interested in shorting down render processes! Peace!

Windows 7 64 bit system
Intel Core i7-3827 3.6 Ghz
System disk Toschiba SSD 480 GB
RAM 16 GB
Nvidia GeForce GTX 780
External disks 5 TB



Well, I think the new rendering engine has a different primary focus, "physics based rendering" (which definitely has a learning curve), not "a fast pre-render by pressing F9". There's a good Blender description of the new Principled BSDF and the physical-world model(s) on which it's built in that thread. Because it's more physical-world based, Principled BSDF surfaces (and derivatives of it, like Conductor, etc.) can have more complex computational requirements (i.e. slower) than a similar Standard surface.

If you want something akin to prior LW renders, I'd suggest turning off GI (CTRL-p, Global Illumination) and use Standard surfaces rather than the Principled BSDF surfaces.

The links I posted still work, and the suggestions I found informative. The original film posted on YouTube by Paul Boland referenced by that thread was a long, involved, mistaken approach to improving LW2018 rendering speed on a single interior scene. The film doesn't add anything at all to the conversation in that thread or the various performance tuning suggestions made there. In that thread, various scenes are posted for your obversation and analysis, both Paul Boland's original and then modified by others and himself.

Good luck!
mTp

CaptainMarlowe
05-02-2018, 01:39 AM
Well, it’s only my own experience, of course, but after being used to the new renderer, I don’t find it slower for equivalent quality. Often even faster. But it does have quite a learning curve, especially coming from 9.6. Now, as it has been explained a lot since its release, using very simple scenes for testing purpose with regard to render speed is maybe not the wisest thing to do. Load a complex scene, convert all standard surfaces to principled, set a lighting adapted to the new render engine, and see what it gets, because it gets exponentially better as the scene gets more complex. I didn’t have the feeling at all I had to upgrade my rig because of the new renderer and was able to render scenes with volumetric lights between tree foliage, millions of polygons, hundreds of pbr textures and several characters with fiber fx in print resolution in short times (less than 30 minutes).
But I did spend some time to understand it better, because it is quite a change. I’ll add I had been using pbr surfaces for a lot of time with other render engines, maybe it eased the learning process of the new render engine (which surface I suspect I only scratched).
So don’t get discouraged and before jumping to the conclusion it needs a new powerful rig, be sure you have learned this new rendering philosophy, because it is the real thing behind : a new shading and rendering philosophy. Some will love it, some will hate it. Depends on each one. I haven’t fired 2015 in months and don’t intend to do, except maybe for some projects that would be too painful to move over and convert for the new shading system.

CaptainMarlowe
05-02-2018, 01:44 AM
Also, this video is paramount to understand a lot of tricks about rendering with LW2018.
https://youtu.be/72AAwSFx4nA

jaxtone
05-02-2018, 06:03 AM
Thanks for you answer!

I will repeat this so it will not lead to any misunderstandings!

I would NEVER build one scene that big as you just described and render it all at the same time though I found it faster and gives me a lot more freedom to edit and adjust details in the post production process. I guess I wouldn't be able to catch up with deadlines or make a customer pay for all extra time it takes to work with gigantic scenes. Now every one is of course free to chose which method is best for their purposes but in my world its only a matter of which customers you work with.

I guess I have to think again if this update to 2018 was right for me! At this very moment I still use LW 9.6 and import stuff into my post programs to make them come to life much faster and with a lot more options. I also think about how the future will look like in the 3D-world and I guess that render times will feel like stone age in a couple of years, in my opinion a dream for any 3D guy!

But I will for sure go through you information text again and see if I can learn to use 2018 in a better way when or if an advanced complex render procedure is craved!


Well, it’s only my own experience, of course, but after being used to the new renderer, I don’t find it slower for equivalent quality. Often even faster. But it does have quite a learning curve, especially coming from 9.6. Now, as it has been explained a lot since its release, using very simple scenes for testing purpose with regard to render speed is maybe not the wisest thing to do. Load a complex scene, convert all standard surfaces to principled, set a lighting adapted to the new render engine, and see what it gets, because it gets exponentially better as the scene gets more complex. I didn’t have the feeling at all I had to upgrade my rig because of the new renderer and was able to render scenes with volumetric lights between tree foliage, millions of polygons, hundreds of pbr textures and several characters with fiber fx in print resolution in short times (less than 30 minutes).
But I did spend some time to understand it better, because it is quite a change. I’ll add I had been using pbr surfaces for a lot of time with other render engines, maybe it eased the learning process of the new render engine (which surface I suspect I only scratched).
So don’t get discouraged and before jumping to the conclusion it needs a new powerful rig, be sure you have learned this new rendering philosophy, because it is the real thing behind : a new shading and rendering philosophy. Some will love it, some will hate it. Depends on each one. I haven’t fired 2015 in months and don’t intend to do, except maybe for some projects that would be too painful to move over and convert for the new shading system.

05-02-2018, 06:40 AM
Jaxtone,
This update is quite different. As others have said, don't get discouraged.
Instead, be as your signature says: curious.

Instead of 'having it the same as it was' with 9.6 (and you will always have it as long as it is installed), be curious as to what it might have to offer to enhance your work.
Try the most outlandish stuff you would never have tried but with all the new tools. Try the same in 9.6 to see the difference. You have to defeat the urge to "not add too much". haha.

It's quite a good renderer with the ability to do things like 3D mist within my lifetime. That's pretty potent compared to the flat planes of the past for flythru purposes.

Robert

mummyman
05-02-2018, 07:57 AM
version 2018.04 just hit. Maybe there is some render speed increases? I haven't read up on the fixes or downloaded it yet.

Tim Parsons
05-02-2018, 08:47 PM
Hi!

If its not possible to make a fast pre-render by pressing F9 to get a view of what and where you are going in a simple scene with a sphere and a plane, isn't it at least a little funny that the PR text tells you that Lightwave 2018 have a new and faster render engine?

What I get is shadows that contains incredibly many dots and look like a total mess if not the render settings reach so high levels that the render times make me pass out. What the heck is the meaning of that?

I would gladly learn how the advanced settings work out later but for now I just wanted to get a traditional LW preview of a simple scenes in seconds, not educate myself and become a render monkey by pressing F9

Number one - why are you pressing F9. :) I know you did not have VPR in 9.6 but 2018 offers F9 renders in VPR at almost realtime depending on scene and CPU. The great thing about 2018 VPR is that it is the render engine unlike previous versions where VPR approximated the render engine. Camera samples should be the last thing to raise to get clean renders. If you use anything like 16min/32max samples your render times are going to be high. I have found 2/4 samples to work just fine. To clean up your shadows crank up the light samples - I set my main lights to 32. Lights that are in the background or only contribute to glows or whatever can be real low. There is a lot of flexibility with the new system and I would recommend you take a very small scene (some basic primitives with floor) and take an afternoon and just do test renders to find the sweat spot. I've created a start scene for our guys to use (product shots) that is working out real good - add model hit render. Render times are in line with what we were getting with 2015.

jaxtone
05-05-2018, 05:27 AM
Tim. I notice I made a mistake in the start of this thread!

I didn't go from 9.6 to LW 2018. I actually ran 11.6 and in that version VPR was definitely an option!

sorry!


Number one - why are you pressing F9. :) I know you did not have VPR in 9.6 but 2018 offers F9 renders in VPR at almost realtime depending on scene and CPU. The great thing about 2018 VPR is that it is the render engine unlike previous versions where VPR approximated the render engine. Camera samples should be the last thing to raise to get clean renders. If you use anything like 16min/32max samples your render times are going to be high. I have found 2/4 samples to work just fine. To clean up your shadows crank up the light samples - I set my main lights to 32. Lights that are in the background or only contribute to glows or whatever can be real low. There is a lot of flexibility with the new system and I would recommend you take a very small scene (some basic primitives with floor) and take an afternoon and just do test renders to find the sweat spot. I've created a start scene for our guys to use (product shots) that is working out real good - add model hit render. Render times are in line with what we were getting with 2015.

prometheus
05-05-2018, 07:41 AM
Tim. I notice I made a mistake in the start of this thread!

I didn't go from 9.6 to LW 2018. I actually ran 11.6 and in that version VPR was definitely an option!

sorry!

Personally I believe it is the "slower" GI path tracing that updates VPR quite a bit slower, at least when it comes to interpolated GI, the brute force montecarlo however Is Faster than Any lightwave version before in VPR, and most likely in final render, but it can not beat the speed of interpolated radiosity in 2015, which was useful for stills...though animation would be a different matter.

dwburman
05-11-2018, 01:18 PM
What might be a good but at the moment financially impossible solution would be to invest in a new and way much faster graphic card with additional nine machines to built a render farm Now this was not planned when I updated to Lightwave 3D 2018 and I feel a lack of disappointment when I read that it had a faster render method.

As far as I know, a much faster graphics card will have no effect on the native renderer.

prometheus
05-11-2018, 05:39 PM
As far as I know, a much faster graphics card will have no effect on the native renderer.

Yes..correct answer, but then we could add to that, check in to octane, and maybe both hair rendering of fiberfx And Volumetric rendering with octane will be much much faster, money may talk in this case.

erikals
05-12-2018, 03:47 AM
LightWave + Octane
use an alright Cpu, and a very fast Gpu

LightWave Only
use a fast Cpu, and a mid range Gpu will do fine

jaxtone
05-13-2018, 02:15 AM
Anyone had a chance to test the demo of Octane yet?

I installed it but and thought that the rest was like chewing peanuts... no way! When trying Octane by pressing F9 in a simple scene for ship containers I get two messages I do not now how to handle.

There are no further information about how to solve the problem and to be honest I do not understand the context since I am new to this way of render.

Please see attached images where the first one appears when trying to press ok in the Octane window. The second one appears when I press F9 in Lightwave.

Why must everything be so complicated... all the time :)

kolby
05-13-2018, 03:44 AM
Anyone had a chance to test the demo of Octane yet?

I installed it but and thought that the rest was like chewing peanuts... no way! When trying Octane by pressing F9 in a simple scene for ship containers I get two messages I do not now how to handle.

There are no further information about how to solve the problem and to be honest I do not understand the context since I am new to this way of render.

Please see attached images where the first one appears when trying to press ok in the Octane window. The second one appears when I press F9 in Lightwave.

Why must everything be so complicated... all the time :)

Do you have latest GPU drivers ? Or maybe unsupported card ?

jaxtone
05-13-2018, 04:04 AM
Win 7 Professional 64 bit - Serv Pack 1

Intel Core I7 3820 - 3.6 Ghz - 4 Core processor

16 GB Ram - Nvidia GeForce GTX 780


Do you have latest GPU drivers ? Or maybe unsupported card ?

OFF
05-13-2018, 05:01 AM
You should check the Plugin options settings - at least one video card must be enabled for the "Use For Tonemap" function.

141666

Mr Rid
05-21-2018, 08:28 PM
version 2018.04 just hit. Maybe there is some render speed increases?

I have a scene that takes 33 seconds per frame in LW2018.0.1, and takes up 16Gb ram. But the same scene in LW2018.0.4, takes 2 minutes & 50 seconds per frame, and 41Gb of ram. WTH?! Same major slow down and RAM smash in v.03 Getting worse.

mummyman
05-22-2018, 10:01 AM
I have a scene that takes 33 seconds per frame in LW2018.0.1, and takes up 16Gb ram. But the same scene in LW2018.0.4, takes 2 minutes & 50 seconds per frame, and 41Gb of ram. WTH?! Same major slow down and RAM smash in v.03 Getting worse.

Grrrr... dang

jaxtone
05-27-2018, 11:32 AM
Thanks to you dear mr Rid for paying attention to this matter. I am glad that it is you who react and brings some light over this. Meaning that you must be one of the most well respected users that owns both skills and passion for the software. When a guy like myself that have no interest or skills in programming, coding or scripting and always found Lightwave's native CA as a maze of steps backwards it sound more like pure complains and negativism.

Hopefully the team at Newtek listen more to you than me.

Personally I am fade up with the old users that always are as happiest if things are like they always have been. It seems like they are still going off typing in digits even for stuff that are not connected to the mechanical industry with millimeter measurements or assembly lines.

Today in the aftermath of almost 22 years with LW as one of my tools I am glad to see that almost every gadget, helper and a much user friendlier interface is a reality even if its far from perfect. The strange thing is that every time I have suggested things that are for real today the old wavers have treated me like an idiot.

I am not a victim here but guess that LW has to be aware of that the new generations of users come from a reality far away from the Amiga generations heir where almost everything today is about drag, drop and slide in real time online. I am sure that this is going to be a reality in the future even for Lightwave, the question is how far away that is.

Oops, this was maybe a little bit off topic in my own thread and I am sorry for that!

Jack

jbrookes
05-28-2018, 01:31 PM
I have a scene that takes 33 seconds per frame in LW2018.0.1, and takes up 16Gb ram. But the same scene in LW2018.0.4, takes 2 minutes & 50 seconds per frame, and 41Gb of ram. WTH?! Same major slow down and RAM smash in v.03 Getting worse.

That sounds like a bug.

Have you reported this to NetTek yet?