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eggy
12-27-2003, 11:32 AM
Sorry to post this “of topic” thread, but we all saw the terrible news about the earthquake in Iran on the 2nd Christmas day.

My brother works for the “German THW” (German disatser control) and went down to Iran last night so I’m a little bid connected and wanted to help too.

So I wanted to call for donation on this board, sorry I know of topic, but if anybody wants to donate some money for the people of Iran you will find donating account on your local newspaper or news station homepage.

Thanks, and sorry for my bad english, who cares about that.

Beamtracer
12-27-2003, 06:03 PM
The number of lives lost in Iran is so many it is difficult to comprehend. Possibly equivalent to ten 9-11s.

Some of the donations that "Western" governments are giving are so pathetically small, considering the magnitude of the disaster.

Find out what your own country has given. Then divide that amount by the population of your country, to find out how much is given person has given. It's not much, usually a few cents each.

I think they will rely a lot on non-government donations.

jjburton
12-27-2003, 07:53 PM
The problem I have is in having faith that my donation will actually get to help the people I want to help in donating. I'm gonna see if I can find one I can trust.

Wade
12-27-2003, 10:31 PM
Great idea Eggy, and thanks to your brother for his willingness to give of himself!

archiea
12-28-2003, 12:42 AM
whats going on in the world.. first cali, then iran?

And all of those old stone buildings....

Beam, careful with those 9/11 comparisions... an act of nature... even one as tragic as in Iran.. not worse or better.. just different... terrorism is terrorism...

Beamtracer
12-28-2003, 02:05 AM
Sorry, just looking at the numbers. I didn't want to compare causes.

What happened in California a few days ago was tiny compared to what could happen. Don't people worry about this???

Doesn't Apple Computer sit right on top of the San Andreas fault line?

------------


Eggy, it's wonderful that your brother is going to Iran to help out. I hope lots of people give money to this cause.

I still believe the governments of nations around the world should give more cash.

I was reading some figures on the news wires:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=7&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_iran_earthquake (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=7&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_iran_earthquake)
"The European Union (news - web sites) said it provided $2.85 million in emergency assistance for Iran. Ireland, Norway and Australia pledged more than $1 million. "

While I'm sure all donations are helpful, I thought these affluent nations could afford to give a bit more cash.

Norway: Population 4 million
National cash donation: 25c per person (US cents)

Australia: Population 20 million
National cash donation: 7c per person (US cents)

European Union: Population 380 million
EU cash donation per person: 0.7 cents (US cents)

Rich
12-28-2003, 07:38 AM
Here is some info on what the U.S.A. is sending to Iran.

(Bam, Iran-AP) -- A U-S military official who flew to Iran with
supplies for earthquake victims says "the reception was beyond
expectations."
The U-S planes that arrived in Iran today were the first
American aircraft to land in the country in more than a decade. The
U-S has no diplomatic relations with Iran but is sending 75 tons of
medical supplies and about 200 rescue and medical experts to assist
in relief efforts.
Air Force Master Sergeant Jeff Bohn was on the first American
transport plane to land in Iran. He says, "the warmth that the
Iranian military and civil aviation workers gave us was truly
incredible."

DigiLusionist
12-28-2003, 10:10 AM
Some reports say that almost half the populace is dead or injured from the earthquake. Staggering loss of life.

Aside from practical assistance (i.e., cadavre dogs, experienced rescue workers, medical supplies, and food), I'm not sure how other countries are obligated to send tons of money there.

We're not going to rebuild the place for them. It was an earthquake. If that happened in Ireland, I'm sure they wouldn't have a sense of entitlement to world aid. That other countries send anything would be appreciated, I would hope.

And whether Apple falls into a fault or not is the least of my concerns on the matter.

anieves
12-28-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Sorry, just looking at the numbers. I didn't want to compare causes.

What happened in California a few days ago was tiny compared to what could happen. Don't people worry about this???

Doesn't Apple Computer sit right on top of the San Andreas fault line?

------------


Eggy, it's wonderful that your brother is going to Iran to help out. I hope lots of people give money to this cause.

I still believe the governments of nations around the world should give more cash.

I was reading some figures on the news wires:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=7&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_iran_earthquake (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=7&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_iran_earthquake)
"The European Union (news - web sites) said it provided $2.85 million in emergency assistance for Iran. Ireland, Norway and Australia pledged more than $1 million. "

While I'm sure all donations are helpful, I thought these affluent nations could afford to give a bit more cash.

Norway: Population 4 million
National cash donation: 25c per person (US cents)

Australia: Population 20 million
National cash donation: 7c per person (US cents)

European Union: Population 380 million
EU cash donation per person: 0.7 cents (US cents)

beam: is not like the governments of the world cannot give more, the problem is that it is the responsability of private citizens not governments. Governments have budgets for this kind of situations. Most of the funds for natural disasters come from individuals. Just because a government has publicly stated how much they are going to contribute doesn't mean that that's all the funds coming from x/y or z country. Remember, governments don't make money; they take it from their citizens.

I find your statemet unfounded and logic lacking.

Hiraghm
12-28-2003, 12:42 PM
Oh, yes, let's all fall all over ourselves to provide relief money to a terrorist nation.

I just wonder if the members of Al Qaeda hiding in Iran, including one of bin Laden's sons, was killed in the disaster.

I don't expect Europeans to take the war on terrorism seriously, or at least not to support the right side, but I didn't expect my own government to send money we don't have to help our enemies.

I'm trying to picture us sending aid to help Japan after an earthquake during WWII...

So there were 30,000 killed in the Iranian earthquake?
Or is someone unable to do basic math?

TSpyrison
12-28-2003, 12:54 PM
Oh geeze.. Here we go again..
<sigh>

eggy
12-28-2003, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the support guys.


@ Hiraghm

I guess oh geeze is right !!!
If you wanna discuss all these terrorist (civilized) or non terrorist (civilized) bull****, you can private message me, that’s an option you can enable on your User CP.
I don’t wanna start these discussions on this board so pm me….

archiea
12-28-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
Oh, yes, let's all fall all over ourselves to provide relief money to a terrorist nation.

I just wonder if the members of Al Qaeda hiding in Iran, including one of bin Laden's sons, was killed in the disaster.

I don't expect Europeans to take the war on terrorism seriously, or at least not to support the right side, but I didn't expect my own government to send money we don't have to help our enemies.

I'm trying to picture us sending aid to help Japan after an earthquake during WWII...

So there were 30,000 killed in the Iranian earthquake?
Or is someone unable to do basic math?

I think that points to a value system... its as if to say that we are not going to kick you while you are down.. in fact we are going to help you..

I think the best thing to do for the states is to help Iran.....

Beamtracer
12-28-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
Oh, yes, let's all fall all over ourselves to provide relief money to a terrorist nation.
[...]
I didn't expect my own government to send money we don't have to help our enemies.
No compassion. No value for human life. Very sad.

The people of Bam in Iran need assistance just to stay alive. Individuals and countries should help in whatever way they can.

One characteristic that is supposed to set the Human species apart from other animal species is compassion. The ability to help someone else. The ability to value others' lives.

Alan Daniels
12-29-2003, 08:35 AM
My heart goes out to the people of Iran (even if I dislike their govt), but this kind of thread belongs in the "General Discussion" category.

Hiraghm
12-29-2003, 10:09 AM
I guess oh geeze is right !!!
If you wanna discuss all these terrorist (civilized) or non terrorist (civilized) bull****, you can private message me, that’s an option you can enable on your User CP.
I don’t wanna start these discussions on this board so pm me….


Oh, sure, you don't want to start these discussions, so you start a thread illiciting help for a member of the "Axis of Evil".


I think that points to a value system... its as if to say that we are not going to kick you while you are down.. in fact we are going to help you..

I think the best thing to do for the states is to help Iran.....

I'm sure you do. But in spite of fantasies to the contrary, the U.S. is not made of money. We're already billions in deficit, we have our own disasters to deal with, and thanks to nations like Iran, we have to spend billions more defending against terrorism, all the while we're sending money, material and people around the world to protect and aid nations around the world.

Yeah, it points to a value system... the value system of "I don't care what you do to me or my people; we don't matter, we'll help you get back on your feet so your kids can kill more of our kids."

We're in the middle of WWIII, and giving aid to Iran for this disaster is like the U.S. helping Japan rebuilt after an earthquake while in the middle of WWII.


No compassion. No value for human life. Very sad.

The people of Bam in Iran need assistance just to stay alive. Individuals and countries should help in whatever way they can.


I have plenty of value for human life, and lots of compassion. Neither of which has anything to do with this Earthquake. The people who don't value human life are the ones getting all hot and bothered now over tens of thousands dead... 9 people died in mudslides in California, I don't see messages calling up collections for their families. U.S. soldiers are dying making Iraq safe for democracy, I don't see messages calling for contributions to help their families survive. Individuals died and will die over the holidays due to drunk drivers, all alone, I don't see messages taking up collections for their families.
How much financial assistance did Iran send the U.S. after 9/11? How much financial assistance did they send when tornadoes wiped out a section of Moore, OK?

There are people in the U.S., in my town, who need assistance just to stay alive. But, they don't matter, because they're Americans. They can pay taxes or starve. I'm sick to death of liberals anxious to give their compassion to everyone but Americans.

No one can mistake me for a liberal, but by God I want universal, government paid-for health care for every single American before we send 75 tons of medical supplies at taxpayer expense to help our enemies.

I have equal compassion for a single person who is wiped out by a semi on a dark and lonely Montana highway, and his family, and the 20,000 dead Iranians. Men are not potatoes, their deaths do not add up, there is no threshold at which a number of deaths is worse than a single death.

For a bit of perspective, 50,000 died at the battle of Gettysberg, 36,000 died in the fire-bombing of Dresden, similar numbers died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 300,000 Viet Cong alone were killed during the Tet offensive. We kill people in these numbers on purpose, and we're supposed to fall all over our enemies when nature does the work for us?

I, for one, still remember 444 days of humiliation as those people, the people who created the modern Iranian government, held Americans hostage. But beyond that, they want assistance for this disaster, fine, turn over everyone in Al Qaeda hiding in their country. While we help them rebuild after the earthquake, they harbor the people plotting the future deaths of Americans and other citizens of the "affluent nations". That's the value system of "your people are precious, my people are nothing".

If we don't spend the money helping them, they have to spend it themselves. That's money they can't be spending on their nuclear weapons program or funding and supporting terrorists. And financial difficulties would only help bring their regime down faster.
So the obvious, feel-good thing to do is to send aid. The wise thing to do is nothing. Doesn't feel as good, but it accomplishes good.

No, it's not that I lack compassion. It's that I think, rather than react mindlessly to politically correct programming.

And if you have the right to start a thread calling for assistance for Iran, I at least should have the right to post messages in that thread calling on people not to.

kaeptn
12-29-2003, 11:31 AM
... before I decided to jump into this thread. Think about
whether to do or not.

Well. The result is evident.

On topic.

Lives don't sum up. And disaster relief funds don't do
either. There's no countable value attached to death or
the money trying to help to cope with it.

The most controversal posts are those from Hiraghm so I
try to deal with those arguments.

First of all everybody should ask himself what he/she personaly
does to help others in exceptional situations. And he should
do that before comparing mud slides with 9 casualties in a
very rich country to an earth quake with 20.000 or more
casualties in a very poor country.

Further, we are not in the middle of WW3. Where ever you got
that information from, a source would be nice ;).

Also, Iran is not "The Enemy" (tm). A tunnel view like this,
on both sides by the way, leads to extremly explosive
situations. Pun indetended.

The people dying in Iraq, on the Moore or whereever US
american troops, or any other military, are involved are
casualties of their job. Like the firemen dying trying to safe
lifes everywhere on the world, for example. As far as I know
there are funds to help the families. If they don't get any or
to few, ask your local representative why. And express your
opinion by taking political actions - at least vote the others,
who ever they are at the moment of distress.

Think global, act local. This is true for individuals. For countries
and their organisations that's something else. But not really.
Only "local" has another definition. And, that's my opinion only,
the defintion of "global" has to be taught to some people on
this planet very thoroughly.

Helping the people in Iran is good. Nobody is changing his
political way of dealing with Iran because of that help and
providing help may not be interpreted as a change of political
point of view. Your government got that, we got that, do you
get it?

Al Qaeda has nothing to do with the people in Bam and the
"Axis of Evil" goes right through your brain.

For those statistics freaks counting cents of help per citizen.
As the thread starter stated, germany send help through the
THW, which is a governmental institution. Where it get's
the money from is too complex to describe but the people
cost money, the equipement, the transfer, etc.

For those not knowing whom to spend money I'd vote for the
international red cross/red halfmoon.

eggy
12-29-2003, 12:03 PM
Can somebody please close this thread !!!:(
Sorry for having me started the thread.

@ Hiraghm
email me privately if you want a history lesson, looks like you really need one.

Hiraghm
12-29-2003, 12:21 PM
My source for WWIII is only the President of the United States, when he announced the "War on Terrorism". That's a global conflict involving almost every nation on Earth. That's a World War.

I'm tired of the idiotic suggestion that every citizen of every nation (except the U.S.) is an impotent peon. The government Iran has was put there by the Iranian people, I saw it happen. If they don't like it, they can do what the American colonies did in 1776 and the French did in 1792 and what the Russians did in 1907 (?). If they don't overthrow the government, then they're responsible for what that government does. That's part of the American philosophy embodied in "....governments rule by the consent of the governed.".

Also, your suggestion that 9 lives in a "rich" nation (14 now, btw) is different from 20,000 lives in a poor nation isn't a valid comparison is true; 9 members of a "rich" nation are a greater loss to mankind than 20,000 3rd world peasants. Terrible when put that way, isn't it? But you're saying the same thing when you suggest that 20,000 lives lost is worse than 1 life lost. It's only worse if you're not one of the 20,001. Tell me how a man who dies alone suffers less than one who dies amongst 19,999 of his fellows. Tell me how his family is less bereaved, how his family's financial position is somehow better than that of one of the 20,000?

More importantly, the 14 in California who died *are* my countrymen. Equating them with 20,000 of my enemies, who would harm my countrymen if they could, who harbor the enemies of my country who *have* harmed my countrymen, is insane. It would be like equating your wife to a skid-row prostitute because they're both female.

Just because my country as a whole is rich, and just because Bill Gates is loaded, does not mean that every citizen in my country is rich. The supplies we give to Iran, the medical experts we pay to send over there are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer, who is repeatedly reminded (by liberals) that he doesn't pay enough taxes, and that we're in a multi-hundred-billion dollar deficit.

Just where do you expect the money to pay for these things for Iran to come from? We're over budget. What program or policy will Americans have to surrender in order to show "compassion" to our enemies? And why should we?

Iran has been our enemy since they took Americans hostage. That they support terrorism is not in question. That they are harboring members of Al Qaeda is known. That they have been working on a nuclear weapons program is admitted. They want aid? Fine, the U.S. can buy all their nuclear production materials from them at cost. That should give them enough money to deal with the disaster.

Finally, Israel offered Iran help. Iran refused. Fine, if they're not desperate enough to take help from Israel, they don't need our help, either.

I'm not the one who needs the history lesson.

retinajoy
12-29-2003, 12:57 PM
Hiraghm. The thirty thousand dead were not your enemies. The 100 thousand homeless and starving (inc women and children) are not your enemy either.

The current ruling class and their minority of supporters are the problem. When the normal population has complained and demonstrated against their government, they have been arrested or killed.

All countries have problems. Here in the UK I come across homeless people roaming the streets, begging for money and there are many other problems here too. That does not mean that if I choose to, that I can't donate money to my fellow human beings in another country that has faced a catastrophe. The Iran government (sitting in their comfy palace or whaterver) refused aid from Israel, but I am sure the normal average Iranian would have welcomed it.

All life has great value whatever culture or religion that person is from and should not be treated as an axis of evil, just because of their governement. Many governments in recentish history inc Britain and America has innocent blood on its hands, but that does not make the general population evil. I don't expect you to see my POV, but I felt like sharing it.

Anyway, I hope this thread can be move to Gen Discussions.

JDaniel
12-29-2003, 01:46 PM
I think it's great we are helping. It shows we are not what are enemies claim we are. I hope we also teach them how to build more durable homes, so that it's not as bad if it happens again.
I hope nobody is attacked while aiding Iran. That's my fear.

stone
12-29-2003, 02:10 PM
hiraghm, you are making up enemies and arguments based on fiction. i really hope that you are that 14 year old kid you sound like being, otherwise i wouldnt be able to explain the ilogical and incorrect presumption you are making.

to me it looks like the iran people dying would be the 'better' persons compared to people like you - hence their lives worth more.

you being unable to see the greater picture and considering yourself to be a better person and worth more than others, doesnt exactly help to give americans a better reputation. i sure hope you arnt a repesentive of the average american - otherwise only god can save us.

/stone

WizCraker
12-29-2003, 02:26 PM
hiraghm,

I was just about to post what you first stated.

kaeptn
12-29-2003, 04:59 PM
Hiraghm,

some (my) rules about sources and facts ...

1 Make sure you're sources are 110% safe. Still ask questions.
2 If this can not be achieved, try 100%. Ask even more.
3 If this can not be done either, try to find as many sources of variable trustworthyness you need to achieve at least 300% safety in total. Values below 75% don't count.
4 If this can not be achieved either, consider what you've found out an opinion but not a fact.
5 Do not ever stop to question this until you can fulfill at least rule 2.

Now try to fit George W. Bush into this scheme. Taking into
account that he as the president of the US is not some heigher
being which has Rule 1 implied by pure belief.

There's not much I can say anymore but you did not listen (not
to me!), you did not learn (not from me!).

You have all the right in the world to express your opinion. Way
more other people have on this planet. But this does not mean
that they don't have one. I am glad many people here have one
and you're obviously swimming against the stream (here).

kaeptn
12-29-2003, 05:15 PM
Well, somehow I tend to agree with your post but on the other hand you're statement contains the same arrogance as Hiraghms.

Yours, mine, European, Asian, any opinion is just that. Not better
or worse than any other. I understand that democracy in it's
purest intention relies on "opinion clusters". But in a small
world like this here it can be difficult to apply this. On the other
hand we learn even in this small world how fast one can be
considered to be the "Evil One".

The american way of living, talking, making politics is not mine,
too. Speaking about the one currently observable.

What many people have to learn is that when you have beaten
someone down to the floor it is wiser to offer a helping hand
instead of kicking him again.

It is more sporty and helps to forgive. Both sides. And forgiving is
so important in any relationship, it can not be stressed enough.
What to forgive lies within each persons/nations own mind.

Wade
12-29-2003, 05:53 PM
By Christina Ling

" WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The first U.S. military aircraft to land in Iran in more than 20 years carried disaster response experts and tonnes of emergency supplies for victims of the Bam earthquake, U.S. officials said on Monday.

But they stressed the move was strictly in response to the humanitarian disaster and reflected no change in policy toward Iran, which President Bush (news - web sites) has labeled part of an "axis of evil."

"The United States' primary focus right now is assisting the Iranian people with what they need," White House spokesman Trent Duffy told reporters in Crawford, Texas, where Bush is spending the New Year's holiday.

"The U.S. policy remains the same," he said.

In contrast to Iran's rejection of all offers of international assistance after a 1990 earthquake that killed more than 30,000 people, Iranian President Mohammad Khatami (news - web sites) has said help is welcome from everywhere except Israel.

The United Nations (news - web sites) praised Iran for quickly letting in foreign rescue and relief teams, including from countries Tehran views as unfriendly, to help the victims of Friday's earthquake -- the world's worst in a decade.

Shaul Bakhash, a Middle East scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington, said Iran's acceptance of help showed Tehran's changed view of the international community but did not necessarily signal warmer ties with the United States.

"Broadly speaking, this reflects a general maturing of Iran's attitude toward the rest of the world," Bakhash said.

"This is a significant change, but I wouldn't say it is a breakthrough. It's another small step in Iran's efforts to normalize its relations with the international community including the United States," he said.

This month, in a European-brokered deal, Iran agreed to snap U.N. inspections of its nuclear facilities, which the United States says are a front for building an atom bomb.

The United States, which has been torn between engaging or isolating Tehran, generally takes a harder line against oil-rich Iran than its Western allies. But the Bush administration's compromise in accepting U.N. inspections was seen by some conservatives as a softening of its anti-Iran stance.

The United States, still called 'the Great Satan' by Iran's fundamentalist hard-liners, broke off diplomatic relations after the 1979 Islamic revolution.

The State Department said a telephone exchange after the quake between Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and Iran's permanent representative to the United Nations, Mohammad Javad Zarif, marked a rare but not unprecedented direct exchange between the two countries.

Early on Monday, an Air Force C-17 plane from Charleston landed at Kerman, about 100 miles northwest of Bam, carrying 68 medical experts and 40,000 pounds of blood and other medical supplies, the Pentagon (news - web sites)'s joint transportation command said in a statement.

Over the weekend, other U.S. military planes ferried dozens more rescue and relief experts and tonnes more medical and humanitarian supplies into Iran from stocks in both the United States and Kuwait, the statement said.

It added that the planes were the first military aircraft to have landed in Iran since the end of the Iranian hostage crisis in 1981. A spokesman could not say how much the assistance was worth or whether there would be more airlifts.

Deputy State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters the United States was prepared to send more aid if needed. "

World - Reuters
Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!
By Parisa Hafezi and Edmund Blair -

" U.S. military cargo planes were among the first to arrive -- despite the fact President Bush (news - web sites) has branded Tehran part of an "axis of evil" and hard-liners in Iran refer to Washington as the "Great Satan." .... -

Egypt, which like the United States severed diplomatic ties with Iran a quarter of a century ago, has also flown in aid.

For the residents of Bam, help was welcome from any quarter.

"When our own government cannot help, let the Great Satan help us. We pay taxes and yet in cases like this, there is no-one to help us," said Abbas Barkhordar, 45, who lost his entire family in the quake.


-- Just some history -- I do hope some good will come of it all, and as a tax pay-er in the U.S.A. I do hope the U.S.A. will give as is needed and will continue to offer help as long as it is needed and useful. Not a jab but in the past they would not except help from anyone and now it's just Israel that is left out.

Beamtracer
12-29-2003, 07:04 PM
Actually, other countries do send assistance when the United States suffers a major disaster. Aid organizations help. Technical assistance is received from abroad.


Originally posted by Hiraghm
For a bit of perspective, 50,000 died at the battle of Gettysberg, 36,000 died in the fire-bombing of Dresden, similar numbers died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 300,000 Viet Cong alone were killed during the Tet offensive. We kill people in these numbers on purpose, and we're supposed to fall all over our enemies when nature does the work for us? "nature does the work for us?" ?????

It is not our work to be destroying cities and lives in the way an earthquake does. It almost sounds like you think it saves "us" the trouble of doing it, like you think an earthquake is a good thing.

An astounding concept.

People should ignore the misfacts presented by Hiraghm and donate to the earthquake appeals. Donating to the international aid agencies does not send money to terrorists as Hiraghm suggested. That is a ridiculous and incorrect suggestion. Donating saves lives.

The people in the earthquake rubble in Iran have suffered one of the worst disasters of the past century. They have no shelter, blankets, food or clean water.

Donating to the aid agencies (ie Red Cross / Red Crescent) helps to provide them with a few basic human necessities for survival.