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View Full Version : 7.5b screws up lighting!



roberthurt
03-07-2003, 04:24 PM
Yikes, I should know better... Installed the 7.5b update and now all my lighting is blown out in older scenes from 7.5.

Here's hoping I can run the 7.5 installer over 7.5b and recover my old settings for lighting...

Sigh.

roberthurt
03-08-2003, 12:23 AM
Here is a more complete discussion of the problem. I've included two renders to show the difference between 7.5 and 7.5b.

I've verified the lighting bug on two separate Macs on two separate Lightwave installations (home and work). Both systems are running OSX 10.2.4, fully updated and both are G4 Quicksilvers DP (one is 2x800 MHz and the other is 2x1 GHz).

First, the image as it renders under 7.5:

http://homepage.mac.com/rhurt/temp/good_render_45.jpg

Now, the image as it renders under 7.5b:

http://homepage.mac.com/rhurt/temp/bad_render_45.jpg

This scene has several lights (point and spotlight) and uses both raytraced and shadow mapped shadows (reflections are raytraced as well). I can't fully characterize what's wrong; parts of this both in shadow and in direct light are overbright. It isn't likely ambient trouble as the dark side of the planet is still dark.

For reference, I've tried rescanning the plugins, and installing the 7.5b update over both fresh 7.0 and 7.0->7.5 installations.

Has anyone else had luck with legacy files?

mbaldwin
03-08-2003, 06:12 AM
my lighting setup is also whack. very similar problems to yours--haven't had time to see what's wrong, but it's a complex scene, and I'm gonna have to re-install 7.5 until i'm done with it.

I AM dissapointed that a .b patch would wreak so much havok.

Dany
03-09-2003, 03:18 AM
The same here,
All my own presets that used to work properly, are rendering "Over Exposed"

mlinde
03-09-2003, 11:36 AM
I noticed this as well.

Rather than tweak all my existing lights, I've started by lowering the global ambient light even lower (I normally work with it at 5%), and as a second option you can lower the global light intensities from 100% to something that comes closer to your original lighting situation.

Not an answer, not exactly a solution, but another work-around if you've upgraded and you want to stay that way...

roberthurt
03-09-2003, 12:35 PM
Alas, that tip doesn't help much if your ambient is already at 0%! :) Plus in scenes like mine that use complex interactions of positive and negative diffuse settings along with luminosity... oh well, I suppose I can wait for 7.5b2/7.5c/whatever...

Scazzino
03-09-2003, 01:24 PM
I had just upgraded to 7.5b and noticed all sorts of lighting problems... (Mac OS X.2.3, DP 1GHz G4, 768MB RAM)

I've had problems with things like translucency rendering only at 100%, regardless of what it's set to.

In a new scene I make a sphere and set the translucency to 100%

Render it for a benchmark. Looks normal...

Then lower translucency to 50%, the translucency effect looks about half as bright in the OpenGL preview as well as in the surface editor.

Render it and wham, the render is identical to the one where it's set to 100%...

Lower it down to 10% and try again, both the OpenGL and surface editor preview look like the translucency has dropped to 10%...

Render it and wham-o, it's still identical to the 100% setting.

I've also had similar issues with diffuse lighting getting added to reflections with 100% color specular setting now completely over exposing everything... that didn't before in 7.5... same surfaces I was using in 7.5 are now all over exposed...

I tore apart my scene looking for what I did wrong... then I remembered I had just upgraded to 7.5b from 7.5. I went back and rerendered an older scene in 7.5b and it too was now all overexposed compared to the render from the same scene in 7.5...

Time to trash 7.5b, reinstall the original 7.5 version, looks like 7.5b is not yet ready for prime time... I'll post a followup to let you know if my lighting goes back to normal after I downgrade to 7.5 or not...

-MikeS

roberthurt
03-09-2003, 03:46 PM
What kind of hardware/OS setups do people have who are noticing these problems? I'm wondering if this might be a DP problem which could have been missed if it were not tested on any dual systems... As noted above, I've found the same problem under OSX 10.2.4 on 2x800 MHz and 2x1GHz systems, one with 500 MB RAM, the other with 1GB.

Scazzino
03-09-2003, 04:10 PM
It's possible, mine's a Quicksilver (Mirrored Drive Doors) dual 1 GHz G4 with 768MB RAM. Running Mac OS X.2.3

I've reinstalled 7.5 and everything is back to normal... I think I'll wait for 7.5c before I try to update it again... ;-)

Normally I wouldn't have installed the patch in the middle of a project, but I was hoping it would have fixed some of the screamer net crashing bugs... it didn't, and it messed up the lighting, so I'm back down to 7.5 now...

I'll post bug reports with specific info on the screamer net bugs as soon as I can... these are not configuration problems, they are serious crashes on scenes that render fine in LW itself...

-MikeS

Dany
03-09-2003, 04:20 PM
Sorry,
Sure not a dual processor issue!
I have it on an iMac 800MHz G4 and on a 1GHz G4 PowerMac AGP (Was 500MHz at birth), both single processor.
The only other thing is that I also use a lot of RAM (1GB iMac and 1.5GB PowerMac).
Do not tell me that we have to reduce the RAM amount:)

Zarathustra
03-09-2003, 09:34 PM
Yeah, I boldly switched in the middle of a project, too. Here's my headache.

Zarathustra
03-09-2003, 09:39 PM
uh, needless to say I finished up my settings on 7.5b, then went to another machine that was still 7.5 and I realized there was a problem.

mbaldwin
03-09-2003, 10:28 PM
as I said before, this type of glaring bug gets me a little tweeked. I can't help it, but I want to peel back the Newtek curtain and see just how many beta testers they have there--not nearly enough, for this over-lit elephant to escape.

will call Newtek tech tomorrow.

Chuck, any comments?

roberthurt
03-09-2003, 11:17 PM
Zarathustra's image is telling; clearly it's more than whacked ambience since the shadows within the ring are still intact.

I'm also starting to think this must be a dual processor problem since everyone who has listed their hardware config seems to be DP; does anyone out there see this on single-processor macs?

Out of curiosity, Zarathustra, how many lights (and what types) are in that scene?

Zarathustra
03-09-2003, 11:31 PM
Danny has a single processor.

I'm using Overcaster.

As I've switched back, I've also noticed a difference in diffusion on one object. I had the setting cranked to 350% in 7.5b, and now back in 7.5 150% is more than enough (layer opacity).
I'm in the middle of a project RIGHT NOW, at 12:30am because I wasted a whole day setting something up in 7.5b and now I have to redo it. That's how I just noticed the diffusion issue.

Dany
03-10-2003, 12:28 AM
Are people really reading?

1) I have the problem on 2 Single Processor (SP) machines! not Dual processor (DP)
2) My name is Dany not Danny

P.S. I'll repeat: Not DP but SP

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 08:37 AM
I've noticed problems with diffuse and translucency...

Any setting other than 0% translucency renders as 100% in 7.5b... So in 7.5b you have the choice of 0% or 100%, nothing in between works... it looks fine in the viewport and in the surface editor's preview, but renders out as if it were set to 100%...

It also screwed up diffuse rendering when used in combination with a reflection map and 100% colored specular, set on the advanced tab...

Didn't do any further testing, since at that point I simply bailed on 7.5b and downgraded back to 7.5...

-MikeS

Miles
03-10-2003, 09:53 AM
I've just downloaded the MAC 7.5b update and wanted to confirm the DVView feature, but I'm not too excited about updating just to find out I'll have to re-install down to 7.5 in order to keep the lighting of my scene files correct.

Is this something NT will need to address and then re-release the MAC version?

This sort of thing was reason enough I had decided to build a PC work station strictly for LW use because MAC end users are constantly having to deal with more issues and/or lack of third party support among the LW developer community.

I'm hoping by this time next year if Apple gets their CPU upgrade path squared away I can go back to making OSX my main 3D platform (since I use OSX for everything else) and just make this year's PC a render node, but if NT and its 3rd party developer support both are going to keep up the usual MAC delayed functionality Apple may never regain my 3D business. NT themselves almost lost my sticking out with LW since I really did not want to move to a PC platform. Sorry for the rant, here I'm working full blown with PC-LW now and I still find myself getting worked up about these MAC issues. NT should give every MAC-LW user a free upgrade to LW8 MAC or PC just for sticking it out with them. LOL!!! :rolleyes:

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 09:57 AM
Wow! This is really becoming pathetic. Well, I suppose this shows that the Mac community isn't just a bunch of paranoid, conspiracy theorists. Newtek really did let us down this time, from the initial posting of an unrecognizable file format through the ".exe" jargon and Unix renderer tied to the PC download to an "F"ed up update.

Geez:(

IversonDesign
03-10-2003, 10:31 AM
I am having the same "blown out" lighting problem using a single processor G4,1Ghz, 640 MB RAm running OSX10.2.4.

Does anyone have simple instructions to get rid of 7.5b update and revert to 7.5 with out too much of a headache?

Thank you, Michael Iverson

P.S. You might think that NewTek would have at least one person beta test the Mac update before screwing with users.

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 10:39 AM
Well, luckily I made a copy of the LW folder (sans content folder) along with my config files (user-library-preferences-) and placed them on another drive. To switch back, I just dragged and dropped the items back to where they used to be, replacing anything new from 7.5b.

Easy-Peasy.

If you weren't prepared, you'll have to re-install. Before you do, you could try and see if the configs for 7.5b will work when you put 7.5 back. If not, then get ready for a lot of time wasted adding plug-ins, customizing your keyboard shortcuts and menu layout abck to the way you used to have it.

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 10:46 AM
Since I hadn't customized LW7.5 at all, it was really easy to go back...

Just trashed 7.5b's entire LW folder.
Trashed all the LW prefs in the user/library/Preferences folder.
Then reinstalled 7.5 from the CD...

When I try to udate to 7.5c (assuming that's what they call a fixed version...), I'll first make a complete duplicate of the prefs and old LW 7.5 folder to a safe location, before updating... Then a downgrade should be a simple drag & drop procedure...

-MikeS

PS. If NewTek would like to add to their Mac beta testers, just let me know... I recently helped Strata test their 3.8.1 release and have been a long time Macromedia beta tester... At least I could have warned them about some of these 7.5b problems before they released it...

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 10:57 AM
I think an untrained monkey could spot the difference in renders. I think anyone could become a Mac beta-tester because apparently there are NONE at the moment.

mbaldwin
03-10-2003, 11:03 AM
Mac OSX users. want resolution to this problem? this is the important part:

Let Newtek Lightwave tech support know of this issue! We need to formally log this and give Ntek some sense of the width and breadth of the problem. On a personal level, I'm sure you find extreme workability issue galling--but that's a sidebar. if anything channel your frustaded energy into actual feedback with Newtek. This info needs to be sent to the Lightwave development team.

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 11:09 AM
Aside from calling, what's the best way of doing that?

mbaldwin
03-10-2003, 11:18 AM
I'm not sure i understand your question. but newtek's contact info can be found here:

http://www.newtek.com/support/tech/contact.html

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 11:22 AM
Here's an image test that shows the problems...
(just incase there are any "untrained monkeys" following along ;-)
-MikeS

PS. I've attached an image, but it doesn't show up in the "Preview Reply" so I'm not sure if it will show up on-line... maybe I'm a monkey that needs some further training... ;-)

Chuck
03-10-2003, 11:26 AM
Actually, posting here is just fine. The beta coordinator is working with our Mac testers on confirming the issue and on determining how it was missed.

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 11:35 AM
Oops, Sorry for stretching out all the messages in the table, I thought it would scale down the image I posted. First time I posted an image to the list... next time I'll use a smaller image... I appologize to any users reading the messages on a small monitor...

-MikeS

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 11:36 AM
Well, confirmation should take all of a minute. The "determining how it was missed" issue will be interesting.

cremegg
03-10-2003, 01:00 PM
Howdy folks,

I have sent a report to Newtek via the technical support email address and just thought i'd raise my hand at these forums as another user to have 'experienced' these gremlins.

As a matter of interest have any Mac users glanced at the PeeC Downloads page? A nice list of updates compared with the 'Missing Legacy Plugins' and 'LWSN update' etc that is strewn all over the Mac download page.

Methinks the Macintosh team needs to pay a wheeee bit more attention to update files ;) .

Heres hoping the 'recompile' comes very soon.

Zarathustra
03-10-2003, 01:08 PM
Deuce at Newtek apparently can't recreate any of the issue presented here. He urges you to send him scenes to prove the claims made here. I only had one scene that I was working on before switching back (see beginning of this thread) but it involved Overcaster and I don't want that to be blamed.
MikeS has already agreed to send at least one scene as proof.

I have both of my boxes rendering until Wednesday night, so I appologize for not being able to contribute other than these postings. If this is still an issue by then, I'll whip some scenes up.

Deuce's comment:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48223&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

fronzel
03-10-2003, 01:26 PM
I have also experinced blown out lighting. Which is'nt such a big deal. The thing that really gets me is the translucency. It renders like as if were at a 100% for me to. The really cool thing is the render time. Its been quadrupled. I have no transparency in my models. yet while I'm watching my render it says rendering transperant polygons and really hangs there. I reinstalled 7.5 and everthing is back to normal. I shall be more careful about updates in the future.
oh yhea and I'm running a single 933 g4.

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 01:31 PM
Here are steps to reproduce the translucency bug in LW 7.5b Mac:
Power Macintosh G4 Dual 1GHz, 768MB RAM.

Steps to reproduce...

Renamed original"LightWave 3D 7.5" folder to "LightWave 3D 7.5 BK"

Ran the "LightWave 3D 7.5b Mac Update" which created a new folder:
"MikeS_SYS:Applications:LightWave 3D 7.5"

Copied my original Content folder and license.key to the new folder...

Launched LightWave 7.5b

Add->Objects->Load Object... Objects/Toys/Ball.lwo

Go to Surface Editor and set the translucency to 100% and render...
Then change it to 50% and render...
Then 1% and render...
Then 0% and render...

What I get here (and you can see attached) is that they all render as 100%, or 0%, nothing in between...

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 01:37 PM
Looks like the image didn't post... (from safari) here's another try from ie...
Also, if I didn't mention earlier in the thread, I'm on Mac OS X.2.3
-MikeS

cremegg
03-10-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by MikeS
Renamed original"LightWave 3D 7.5" folder to "LightWave 3D 7.5 BK"

Ran the "LightWave 3D 7.5b Mac Update" which created a new folder:
"MikeS_SYS:Applications:LightWave 3D 7.5"

The 7.5b update does NOT install a full copy of LightWave. You must have your 'LightWave 3D 7.5' folder in place. Like the upgrade says 'You will need LightWave 3D 7.5 installed.'

Not sure if this relates to the Transluceny issue but for future reference.

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 02:00 PM
Thanks,

It shouldn't matter since I did install it over my original 7.5 the first time, when I originally noticed these problems...

Then I trashed 7.5b... and went back to 7.5...

I reinstalled 7.5b again this time to only get some steps to reproduce for NewTek..

But anyway, just to be sure, I just went back and reinstalled 7.5b over my original 7.5 folder (after first making a backup copy of the 7.5 folder to a safe location... ;-) I then performed the same steps, with the same results...

Then to document proper behavior...

I then renamed the 7.5 folder 7.5b and copied my backup 7.5 folder back into the applications folder and performed the same test in 7.5 which looks as it should, attached you can see how the 50% and 1% don't look like 100%...

cremegg
03-10-2003, 02:12 PM
No problem I just wanted to be sure that you wouldn't be running an incomplete version of LightWave as I had allready experienced plug-in problems related to not installing over the original 7.5 install :) .

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 02:36 PM
Now on to the Diffuse/Reflection Bug:

Now in 7.5b perform the following on the ball.lwo...

On the surface editor

Remove the Luminosity texture and set luminosity to 0%
Set Reflection to 100%
go to: Environment
Set it to Ray Tracing + Spherical
Reflection Map: load image: Images/Reflections/Chrome.tga
On the advanced tab: set 100% color highlights:

Render the image... looks fine...
Now lower Diffuse to 50% (notice surface editor preview darkens quite a bit) and render again... Renders as if Diffuse were still close to 100%
Lower diffuse to 1% and render... still looks close to 100%
Lower diffuse to 0% and render... Now it renders as 0%

Perform the same steps in 7.5 and compare...

So, it looks like this may be two manifestations of the same bug where diffuse and translucency only render as 0% or 100% (or close to 100%) with nothing in between...

cremegg
03-10-2003, 02:55 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if infact there is no lighting bug and if it is just a diffusion bug. I believe, although not confirmed, that the scene I tested with 7.5b, the main object had a diffusion setting lower than a 100% and the 'blown out' feel could then be caused by the diffusion rendering closer to 100% than the value I gave it.

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 03:06 PM
I don't think anything that I've seen is a "lighting" bug. I've seen the diffuse and translucency render only at 100% (or close to it) in certain instances. If all your using is diffuse, though, it seems to work OK.

My diffuse gets messed up when used in conjunction with reflection maps and colored specular highlights as shown in my steps to reproduce.

The same problem could also affect other surface channels, and/or in other circumstances, but I haven't tested them specifically...

Well, it's been a ball... ;-)
Now I need to get some work done... in 7.5...

-MikeS

dpartridge
03-10-2003, 06:20 PM
im getting similar problems as MikeS, with diffuse and translucency. renders 7.5b update unusable.

roberthurt
03-10-2003, 07:24 PM
I'm pretty convinced that diffusion IS the culprit. I've looked over my original scenefile for the images that started this thread and think that I've matched every overilluminated surface to an intermediate diffusion setting.

Kudos to the keen debuggers out there!

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 07:53 PM
Was NewTek able to reproduce this problem?
Is it only on the Mac?
Any idea when a fix might be available?

7.5b is not useable (for me anyway) until a fix is available...

I'd like to move up to 7.5b so I can do some screamer net bug chasing... There are a few crashing bugs in screamer net that I want to verify exist in 7.5b so I can isolate and report them... so they too can be fixed... ;-)

-MikeS

cremegg
03-10-2003, 08:01 PM
Deuce was attemtping to recreate the problem last i heard from him. I also sent him a small scene file and some test renders to highlight the problems with diffusion and translucency. I will let you know if i hear anything from him or Newtek ;)

Here's hoping for a swift recompile.

luka
03-10-2003, 08:04 PM
I just had the same problem all my scenes where completely unusable as I had a few lights in the scene which took a while to tweak in 7.5. I think there could be a problem with the transperency/diffusion/raytrace

Scazzino
03-10-2003, 08:13 PM
Looks like someone is having similar problems with the glow setting, but in 7.5 Mac, not 7.5b. My guess is that these are all related bugs, or multiple manifestations of the same bug...

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=10663#post10663

I'm at home right now and don't have LW installed to test...

-MikeS