PDA

View Full Version : A scene from my Modo days now in LW2018



Snosrap
02-27-2018, 10:13 PM
Here is a scene I acquired online while I was mucking about with Modo601 back in the day. I converted to LW2018 and did a render. Modo renders it a lot faster, but the LW version totally rocks! The LW2018 renderer is gorgeous! Some noise in LW version, but it really has a quality to it that I just love.

Modo601
140398

LW2018
140399

Scene

samurai_x
02-28-2018, 12:48 AM
Lw 2018 materials and lights are physically correct from the start that's why it looks good.
Modo 601 has the traditional engine. In later modo versions they added PBR and you can switch from trad to pbr just by a tab. It will look good, too.

gar26lw
02-28-2018, 03:19 AM
i think there is a thread on that render on modo forum

hrgiger
02-28-2018, 01:28 PM
Yeah Modo 601 is old school :)

Snosrap
02-28-2018, 08:16 PM
Lw 2018 materials and lights are physically correct from the start that's why it looks good.
Modo 601 has the traditional engine. In later modo versions they added PBR and you can switch from trad to pbr just by a tab. It will look good, too.

I see. Too bad it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I think they have some great tech there and it's very LWavey. When I first rendered it I thought - Damn that's good. Really clean and fast. But LW2018 made me giggle with glee. Man there is so many great renderers out there now, we are truly blessed to be part of this industry at this time.

Rayek
02-28-2018, 10:24 PM
I see. Too bad it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I think they have some great tech there and it's very LWavey. When I first rendered it I thought - Damn that's good. Really clean and fast. But LW2018 made me giggle with glee. Man there is so many great renderers out there now, we are truly blessed to be part of this industry at this time.

It's only going to get better - mainstream real-time render engines are just around the corner, and being implemented in competing 3d packages as I write this. A path tracer is SO last decade ;-P

samurai_x
03-01-2018, 12:59 AM
It's only going to get better - mainstream real-time render engines are just around the corner, and being implemented in competing 3d packages as I write this. A path tracer is SO last decade ;-P

A pathtracer on cpu only, yes.
But you still need an offline renderer today. And AAA companies will be using it because they need all the flexibility.

rdolishny
03-01-2018, 03:29 PM
Thank you for sharing.

Snosrap
03-01-2018, 09:31 PM
Just wanted to share the results of LW2018.0.1 vs LW2018.0.2. It seems things have changed. Not as fast and not as dynamic. 7min 7sec on .0.1 vs. 7m 39sec on .0.2 with an 8 yr old i7 920. No biggie - just need to lower roughness values to make it pop again I supose. :)

140449
140450

CaptainMarlowe
03-01-2018, 10:35 PM
There must be something changed in your scene, the two renders give different results (shadows, reflections)

mattc
03-02-2018, 12:08 AM
There must be something changed in your scene, the two renders give different results (shadows, reflections)

There were some render fixes between the two versions re: roughness settings....

CaptainMarlowe
03-02-2018, 12:11 AM
Yep, just noticed that.

Axis3d
03-02-2018, 06:43 AM
I just rendered a still from something in 2018.0.1, which rendered clean in 12m 30s.

Rendered the same thing in 2018.0.2, which rendered in 10m 55sec. But I do see the same issue with the roughness value. It seems to be rendering too high.

But the biggest issue I'm noticing is that the 2018.0.2 render has lots of fireflies in the render, where the 2018.0.1 version did not.

CaptainMarlowe
03-02-2018, 06:50 AM
From what I gathered on FB, you have to reduce a lot your roughness value (around 0.2 of your current setting) with the new version.

Axis3d
03-02-2018, 06:53 AM
From what I gathered on FB, you have to reduce a lot your roughness value (around 0.2 of your current setting) with the new version.

Yeah, I figured I could eyeball the roughness setting, but the fireflies are a problem now.

Seems like something more than just a roughness setting that has changed. I can't quite seem to get it to look the same as the previous version render. Still experimenting...

Snosrap
03-02-2018, 09:35 PM
Very nice! I love these kinds of scenes. I just wish I had the imagination to make them. :)

Snosrap
03-03-2018, 09:52 PM
But I do see the same issue with the roughness value. It seems to be rendering too high.

Matt confirmed the change in the roughness. It was done to match Substance. He apologized but said now was the time to do it instead of later.

jwiede
03-04-2018, 04:50 PM
From what I gathered on FB, you have to reduce a lot your roughness value (around 0.2 of your current setting) with the new version.

Odd, for me it feels like roughness is changing in the wrong "direction": In 2018 & 2018.0.1, even at really high values of roughness, the visible effect was never strong enough, and the visible effect max'ed out at too little visible roughness compared to other versions of the principled shader. Now, they've changed it so the value set needs to be much lower (such that using old values yields even higher settings), but even at these magnified settings, the actual visible roughness effect still isn't particularly "strong" (still "maxing out" at too low visible roughness).

It seems like they've "weakened" the visible effect of roughness further, when LW really needed for the visible roughness effect to be "strengthened" (or at least the "max visible roughness" increased). The range of visible roughness effect now seems even less broad than it was for 2018 & 2018.0.1, and the "maximum visible roughness" attainable seems even less rough than it was in 2018 / 2018.0.1.

(The issue's somewhat visible in Snosrap's render, if lower render's supposed to be 5x roughness of the upper render, it sure doesn't look it)

Anyone else noticing this?

Paul_Boland
03-05-2018, 05:55 AM
The LW2018 renderer is gorgeous! Some noise in LW version, but it really has a quality to it that I just love.

A render engine that purposely produces noise is not a quality engine to me. I find working with the new 2018 engine is a battle against creativity. Lightwave 2015 you just rendered and got great clean renders every time. Lightwave 2018 you have to battle against, slowing down the render times, to try and get clean renders. The 2018 engine feels like a downgrade to me which is a shame. I can’t easily recommend Lightwave anymore... :(

Snosrap
03-05-2018, 07:08 AM
A render engine that purposely produces noise is not a quality engine to me. I find working with the new 2018 engine is a battle against creativity. Lightwave 2015 you just rendered and got great clean renders every time. Lightwave 2018 you have to battle against, slowing down the render times, to try and get clean renders. The 2018 engine feels like a downgrade to me which is a shame. I can’t easily recommend Lightwave anymore... :(

It's new and doesn't work like the old one. Learn to use it how it is meant to be used and I think you'll come to appreciate it. The quality of my output has been enhanced and getting great surfaces/materials dialed in is a lot easier and faster. I highly recommend spending the time to learn its nuances.

gar26lw
03-05-2018, 07:16 AM
A render engine that purposely produces noise is not a quality engine to me. I find working with the new 2018 engine is a battle against creativity. Lightwave 2015 you just rendered and got great clean renders every time. Lightwave 2018 you have to battle against, slowing down the render times, to try and get clean renders. The 2018 engine feels like a downgrade to me which is a shame. I can’t easily recommend Lightwave anymore... :(

+1 on this

Marander
03-05-2018, 07:57 AM
+1 on this

Both Snosrap and Paul have valid points to me.

The new render engine looks great in some parts (dialectric, volumetric, lighting), not so good in others (conductors look fake to me with the new material).

It's in the nature of path tracers to produce noise. The problem is that it's slow compared to other path tracers.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-05-2018, 09:29 AM
Paul, I understand where you are coming from but believe you don't like the new renderer because you don't yet understand it. If you want noiseless renders with practically zero learning curve then get octane. Arnold is used in production everywhere and LW 2018 is quite comparable in speed and workflow. 2018 is certainly better than Arnold for interactive surfacing and rendering though as Marander said, not as fast for final quality.

But the nodal surfacing and expanded buffers in 2018 are superb, especially with Global Materials and EXRtrader. Being able to interactively view and render any buffer in the viewport or multiple viewports to tune settings and balance noise/render speed is extremely powerful. I think once you fully understand and follow the workflow for refining noise, your eyes will be opened to the possibilities.

Having said that, I absolutely agree a progressive rendering mode should be added ASAP for ease of use and that Newtek should keep optimizing.

Marander
03-05-2018, 10:42 AM
...But the nodal surfacing and expanded buffers in 2018 are superb, especially with Global Materials and EXRtrader. Being able...
...
Having said that, I absolutely agree a progressive rendering mode should be added ASAP for ease of use and that Newtek should keep optimizing.

Yes absolutely, nodal surfacing and VPR for fast lookdev are certainly LWs strong sides!

Yes progressive rendering for F9/F10 should be possible (as an option).

Are there still advantages for EXR Trader in 2018? (I have it for 2015 and it's great but I was thinking it's not required again in 2018)?

gar26lw
03-05-2018, 02:04 PM
Yes absolutely, nodal surfacing and VPR for fast lookdev are certainly LWs strong sides!

I'd say were at this point until we get a faster VPR, IFW and Dpont nodes


Yes progressive rendering for F9/F10 should be possible (as an option).

I hope so. we really need the old FPrime style back, with MMB zoom and pausing the render.


Are there still advantages for EXR Trader in 2018? (I have it for 2015 and it's great but I was thinking it's not required again in 2018)?

I have it for 2015 also. Its brilliant. I haven't upgraded yet and I haven't needed it atm but I may do if I encounter bugs in the render passes. I think I will eventually as I liked the workflow and I would like to support DB&W so hopefully one day, Shadermeister makes a return.

gar26lw
03-05-2018, 02:10 PM
Paul, I understand where you are coming from but believe you don't like the new renderer because you don't yet understand it. If you want noiseless renders with practically zero learning curve then get octane. Arnold is used in production everywhere and LW 2018 is quite comparable in speed and workflow. 2018 is certainly better than Arnold for interactive surfacing and rendering though as Marander said, not as fast for final quality.

But the nodal surfacing and expanded buffers in 2018 are superb, especially with Global Materials and EXRtrader. Being able to interactively view and render any buffer in the viewport or multiple viewports to tune settings and balance noise/render speed is extremely powerful. I think once you fully understand and follow the workflow for refining noise, your eyes will be opened to the possibilities.

Having said that, I absolutely agree a progressive rendering mode should be added ASAP for ease of use and that Newtek should keep optimizing.

So one thing I don't get, with Arnold everywhere, is why make a pathtracer when everyone uses Arnold and there was an Arnold LW plugin a while back in dev ?

100% on progressive rendering. please, please, please! :)

Chris S. (Fez)
03-05-2018, 03:33 PM
EXR trader is better organized, works with F9 and has a dedicated viewer for buffers. Upgrade is reasonably priced too.

gar26lw
03-05-2018, 04:41 PM
EXR trader is better organized, works with F9 and has a dedicated viewer for buffers. Upgrade is reasonably priced too.

you're selling me :D

Marander
03-05-2018, 11:31 PM
you're selling me :D

Me too ;-)

Yes the DB&W people are very nice!

Thanks Chris and gar26lw.

hrgiger
03-06-2018, 02:43 AM
Haha, the way this thread is being moderated is a joke.

fishhead
03-06-2018, 03:08 AM
So one thing I don't get, with Arnold everywhere, is why make a pathtracer when everyone uses Arnold and there was an Arnold LW plugin a while back in dev ?

100% on progressive rendering. please, please, please! :)

Well, I guess first and foremost you came blame A***desk for Juanjo stopping the LWtoA development... Plus the price for a renderlicense, even while at version 4.xx and before was never really sexy...
So, when our devs do it right: who needs Arnold anymore? ;-}

gar26lw
03-06-2018, 05:46 AM
Well, I guess first and foremost you came blame A***desk for Juanjo stopping the LWtoA development... Plus the price for a renderlicense, even while at version 4.xx and before was never really sexy...
So, when our devs do it right: who needs Arnold anymore? ;-}

oh, is that what happened with AD and Arnold? I was not aware. ok.

hey am i going mad? i thought i posted a link in here to the modo thread with that scene the OP had? can’t remember.

hrgiger
03-06-2018, 09:03 AM
oh, is that what happened with AD and Arnold? I was not aware. ok.

hey am i going mad? i thought i posted a link in here to the modo thread with that scene the OP had? can’t remember.

No youre not going mad, youre just being censored. Youre in the lw bubble.

SBowie
03-06-2018, 11:17 AM
No youre not going mad, youre just being censored. Youre in the lw bubble.No, you're in the LW Forums. Posts that are deemed to be "Promotional messages and material for competing products", without any genuine attempt at a LW context, are going to be scrubbed ... and at this time of the year, deletions happen without further notice or explanation, and certainly not apology. (We've been very open about this standard being applied, and have repeatedly explained the sort of things that might reasonably justify exceptions.)


http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63919-NewTek-Discussion-Forums-Moderation-Policy

And, since "Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion", posts that do that are also subject to removal without further notice (I left yours for context).

prometheus
03-06-2018, 12:18 PM
No, you're in the LW Forums. Posts that are deemed to be "Promotional messages and material for competing products", without any genuine attempt at a LW context, are going to be scrubbed ... and at this time of the year, deletions happen without further notice or explanation, and certainly not apology. (We've been very open about this standard being applied, and have repeatedly explained the sort of things that might reasonably justify exceptions.)


http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63919-NewTek-Discussion-Forums-Moderation-Policy

And, since "Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion", posts that do that are also subject to removal without further notice (I left yours for context).

I have noticed this as a more stricter policy from Newtek, and I fully understand that, I got one of my "infos" of another 3d releases removed, and it was fully understandable..just got me a bit confused since..newtek maybe have been to Generous on such posts previously...but the removal was quite understandable.

I reckon users may need some adaptation to that "stricter" policy, and it can be a bit difficult to filter what is deemed competing product, or just News about a new interesting product...if it is even possible to go to general discussion and make people aware of a different 3d product.
making someone aware of fusion, after effects, photoshop releases, or paint programs..that I think may be more safe sincé it is often complementary, while strictly 3d software like blender...even if they are free (which most likely is irrelevant..as it still is competing) shouldn´t be allowed...Unless we provide help, info or tutorials on how to work with them together complementing each other for a good artist workflow.

hrgiger
03-06-2018, 12:33 PM
No, you're in the LW Forums. Posts that are deemed to be "Promotional messages and material for competing products", without any genuine attempt at a LW context, are going to be scrubbed ... and at this time of the year, deletions happen without further notice or explanation, and certainly not apology. (We've been very open about this standard being applied, and have repeatedly explained the sort of things that might reasonably justify exceptions.)


http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63919-NewTek-Discussion-Forums-Moderation-Policy

And, since "Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion", posts that do that are also subject to removal without further notice (I left yours for context).

Which I fully understand. Except the very subject of this thread was pertaining to a render from LightWave 2018 vs a render from Modo 601 which someone else (not me) went on to explain that one possible reason that you would see a difference in such renders was because physically based rendering wasn't introduced into Modo until after 601 just like it wasn't introduced into LightWave until the now current version. I then posted an example of a more recent render for the benefit of the OP which you went ahead and removed because apparently you felt it was an attempt at promotion which it was not.

The one thing that other software vendors seem to understand is that their users don't live in a bubble (or on a single forum) and that use of other software is not only common but expected and crosstalk is healthy for the promotion of ideas. Apparently, NT is not for that environment. Fair enough.

SBowie
03-06-2018, 12:35 PM
making someone aware of fusion, after effects, photoshop releases, or paint programs..that I think may be more safe sincé it is often complementary, while strictly 3d software like blender...even if they are free (which most likely is irrelevant..as it still is competing) shouldn´t be allowed...Unless we provide help, info or tutorials on how to work with them together complementing each other for a good artist workflow.That's a reasonably balanced description. We've discussed this in past posts, and given notice that standards that we had relaxed a bit in view of the dearth of news last year would now be more stictly enforced.

You shouldn't imagine that this simply reflects a non-competitive forum policy, either. There have been numerous complaints (both offlist and on) from members who come here to learn about LW and who are really tired of threads being overrun with posts campaigning on behalf of other products.

jwiede
03-09-2018, 07:27 PM
Based on the "forum moderation policy" thread/post, the rules against attacking others are now essentially limited to disallowing:


Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members

Apparently personal attacks against anyone or anything that isn't a customer or employee (or their families) are now perfectly acceptable, including competitors employees (and families), competitors' products, and so forth. Pretty much anyone who hasn't given money to or has a fiduciary relationship with Newtek.

The equivalent clause in General Discussion's version of the rules protects even fewer:


Personal attacks against, such as those that target other members, NewTek employees, or their family members


Steve, care to comment? Are those two threads/posts (in the LW Discussion and General Discussion forums) really the entirety of the forum rules now?

If not, where are the rest of the forum rules and policies, and why aren't they mentioned by those threads/posts?

SBowie
03-09-2018, 07:42 PM
Steve, care to comment? Are those two threads/posts (in the LW Discussion and General Discussion forums) really the entirety of the forum rules now?

If not, where are the rest of the forum rules and policies, and why aren't they mentioned by those threads/posts?I'm going to copy this post into a new thread, to avoid sidetracking this one. I'll add a link here when I do.