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archiea
12-23-2003, 06:38 PM
hey gang,

Just DL the new tutorials.. at least one.... Bandwidth orgy is at it again....:mad:

Anyway, I see that NT has responded to the numerous interface post, and I salute them for doing so...

Still, looking at 7.5 on one monitor and looking at the demo on 8 in the other, I can;t help but think as to how the interface on 8 looks "older" than 7.5.

Its more contrasty, which some would argue that its easier to see.

It appears that the buttons have an outline and a bevel. Compared to 7.5's simple outline it feels like an overkill. Also the main layout window's suble bevel of a boarder has been replaced with a hard outline. Infact, all throughout the interface, alot of subtle, bevel only designs that defined the outlines of input fields, tabs, display windows have been replaced with dark outlines, sometimes combined with a bevel (overkill).

It somehow give 8 a dated look. Overall, 7.5 has a less contrasty look. and a more modern feel. The grads softened the buttons, and the lighter outline softened the whole interface... yet it didn't affect the clarity.

How does everybody else feel?

Dillon
12-23-2003, 07:56 PM
This topic has been talked to death already.

Enjoy the holidays!

Dillon

jr_sunshine
12-23-2003, 08:10 PM
:rolleyes:

wgreenlee1
12-23-2003, 08:21 PM
we dont need no interface.....


we need marking menus:p

archiea
12-24-2003, 03:13 AM
Alot of things have been talked to death, Dillon, but in this case its a personal opinion which varies from person to person. the interface is exactly what it says.. its the interface.. so I think there are some valid reasons for discussion...

also, people ha ve shown how resourseful they are by posting their own mock ups.. In some cases better that what NT offered.

cresshead
12-24-2003, 06:11 AM
Hmm well the u.i is okay for lw8 and i hope that it's not what's holding up the release!...if so just revert back to 7.5 U.I as i think it looks VERY "pro" and my students comments are that lightwave looks the best looking U.I out of max,maya,cinema,combustion and lightwave 7.5

maya looks very child like with "chad valley" sized icons and too much blue in the whole deal...

combustion is second in the U.I winners after lightwave 7.5


i hope we can still get the 7.5 look if we want to..maybe just different colors so we know we're in "eight" rather then 7.5

steve g

archiea
12-24-2003, 11:51 PM
i think the "Lightwave 8.0" on the menu bar is all thats needed to say that its a new version. As I have posted in other forums, unless you are adding to the workflow of the UI, why change it? Adobe added tabs to photoshop, greatly aiding in managing w/ screen realestate and workflow. What has LW 8's GUI design added to workflow or funtionality? nothing. so why change it......

aethetically, whats come out of NT for the past few months as far as gui is dated, lacked any innovation, and reeks of an inbred approach. i.e. with all of the proposed screens looking like DF or shake by what seems like people who are not GUI desingers.. In fact, i have seen at least three or four proposals by members here that, while some radical, at least offered a more modernized look to LW.

The demos just posted look alot like the Mirage interface. When I recommended the demo of Mirage to a few friends they were taken aback by the interface..saying that it looked like "old software".

NT, is that the impression that you want from people who see 8? Especially hearing that the whole purpose of changing the interface is for marketing reasons?

For the sake of all of us, hire an independant designer, or several, and have them do mock ups... As radical as it may look at first, its like the conceptual art for cars.. while they may not make it into production, they are there to inspire...

Or just leave it alone.. or open it up for more flexibility by the artist...

stef
12-25-2003, 12:16 AM
UI not bad at all - go NT, go...
Archiea et al. please let NT finish their job (features, stability) and pester them for UI (if you need to) in the next update.
'nough said...
Happy holidays to you and everyone else.

dualboot
12-25-2003, 06:43 AM
Archiea, agreed completely.

I can't wait to see what are reviewers going to say about this.

It seem that Newtek thinks this will somehow benefit Lightwave (or there is secret agenda to loose users), who knows.

What is the first thing You look when buying a car?

Chazz
12-25-2003, 09:01 AM
While I'm not too wild about the look of the interface myself, I think that (having done a lot of interface design myself) we really need to use it to determine if it's a step in the right direction from the 7.5 interface.

Anyway, this has been discussed to death... Newtek probably has bigger things to worry about than the interface anyway. Hell...maybe it'll be skinnable and then we can all be happy.

Enjoy the holidays everyone! :D

Kvaalen
12-25-2003, 09:14 AM
This is just my personel opinion. To me the interface looks like it's as basic it can get as if it is what is being used temporarly to not show the real interface that is maybe still in progress. Doesn't it look like that?

BTW, don't you guys think the text on the buttons should go down one pixel (like matt [I think] once mentioned)?

anieves
12-25-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
This is just my personel opinion. To me the interface looks like it's as basic it can get as if it is what is being used temporarly to not show the real interface that is maybe still in progress. Doesn't it look like that?

BTW, don't you guys think the text on the buttons should go down one pixel (like matt [I think] once mentioned)?

That wouldn't surprise me and I would actually get a kick out of it and I would laugh at all these ppl. argueing about the UI!

ha, ha, ha please NT go for it!
there would be a lot of ppl feeling pretty silly if NT actually does that!:D

shermanlu
12-25-2003, 10:35 AM
The interface of LW[8] is ok to me... however, let's compare it to the other competetors...(MAYA, MAX, XSI...etc.). what will you pick when you see these apps for the first time (let's put those tools & functions away for a while...). I don't think LW[8] can win the competition!!!

Even though I feel quite positive when NT showed those previews of LW[8], NT's marketing ability really s**ks!!!

The Interface dsign is the MAJOR marketing appearance of all applications IMHO. Most of people would love to have a pretty clumsy girl friend but won't treat a dull face smart guy as a friend at the first place!!! Focus on work flow and functionalities are not the excuses for comes up a Interface that lack of competitive appearance.

If the interface of LW[8] that has showed to us is the best NT can provide... then... I can take it anyway!!! I just wanna say... please, give us some thing better to make all of LW users feeling proud of when LW[9] has announced.

milkman
12-25-2003, 11:32 AM
wait... what new tutorials?

archiea
12-25-2003, 01:57 PM
Nope, no calming down for me...

I bagged on NT for their Siggraph two years ago because it dovetailed into the circa mid ninties shout-a-thon, where toaster demo artist were shouting how they are not artist, how the toaster was better than an inferno, and how to cheat your clients by telling them that it it still takes as long as an inferno and how that equals to more pizza and beer for you....

And this was at siggraph with graphics professions..

That behavior would be questionable at a dinky DV world expo, much less at a siggraph ....

I had friends and collegues laughing out of their chair because they couldn't believe how amataeurish things had become...

I remember trying to sell the toaster to my boss in '92.. I had it in an old quantel paintbox room with an abecus and a downshooter that wasn't being used anymore.. I hooked up a toaster and had Lw feeding the abecus animations, the downshotter feeding the toaster textures, and i had the toaster A/B-ing version for clients with the wipes and dissolves... something you couldn;t do in realtime with the paintboxes...

Alot of my peers as artist really dug it... For all of the excitment generated by the new work and what seemed like feasable 3d, both the client and my bosses couldn't get past the whole amataeurish show NT would put on at the exhibits.. They could not shake the loudmouth demos that gave the impression that the toaster was a tool for hacks...

meanwhile, Avid was up and coming, so was after effects and the mac quadras.. they insisted on getting quadras and AE and then our work slowed down to a crawl.. and we had no 3D.. but they were impressed with the professional demos that they had seen... wow, photoshop 2.5... every try to use that as toaster paint in those days?:mad:

being that i was the guy in the trenches, I understood the difference.. at that time, the mac was a hack for video.. it was a print machine that had alot of print software that was the square peg trying to fit into the found hole of video. But it was slick, it was a mac.. $5000 without the keyboard... and those demos with the pretentious artist with french accents :rolleyes:

point being that it was marketing that convinced my bosses that the mac was better, even though I was producing stuff right there and then on the toaster in the studio.... they feared the image that NT gave with the toaster that it wasn't a professional tool like the macintosh.. uh, yeah.. we know better but thats the power of marketing...

...and now we have these new gui designs for no apparent reason.. other than giving the impression that LW 8 looks "dated" or "old". Sorry, this may seem subtle and unimportant.. but trust me.. it is.. the best thing that NT can do for LW right now, is to leave that 7.5 GUI.

prospector
12-25-2003, 02:09 PM
What's wrong with a clean and simple UI ??
It's what the buttons will do when you click them that counts.
I'd be more interested in what's going on in the 4 window views that the shape or color of the buttons.

riki
12-25-2003, 05:07 PM
I haven't been able to install the codex on my Mac, tried a few times.

Philours
12-25-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by prospector
What's wrong with a clean and simple UI ??
It's what the buttons will do when you click them that counts.
I'd be more interested in what's going on in the 4 window views that the shape or color of the buttons.

Oh, come on ! This is obvious for everyone here that functionalities are just crucial, but is this a reason to be blind enough to ignore the other points ?

Do you say when you buy a car "i don't mind the look and color of it, i just want to know if i can circulate with it", certainly not, so don't do this whith softwares you are using.

As someone said the "actual" [8] UI might be a temporary one, and i hope so cause it's really not that good.

Why do bother about building a crappy proprietary UI when you can just use windows or OSX widgets (that are skinable by semleves). Honnestly, if Newtek doesn't mind about UI design, i think this is the best thing to do as the current UI shown for now on really isn't that popular.

Matt
12-26-2003, 09:21 AM
I know this has been talked to death, but I agree with those fighting for a slick, pro-looking interface.

If I'm gonna be working in LW8 and showing clients stuff on screen, I want it to look good too, assuming the workflow side of things is sorted, why can't it look the business too?

You can have both, having one doesn't mean you can't have the other! This is why I did the whole vX thing, I'm not saying it is the best solution, just my interpretation of one possible solution.

A good looking (don't read that as OTT, simple is the way to go) won't detract from your workflow, in fact it can only help.

Just my (probably now well known!) thoughts!!!

Matt

P.S. Hope everyone had a great Xmas, I did!! :)

P.P.S. Yes Kvaalen it was me who said the text should be lowered by 1 pixel, this might sound anal to some, but it looks wrong, it's the first thing you notice!!!

CB_3D
12-26-2003, 09:37 AM
VX is the best designed solution iīve seen so far. And yes, the 1 pixel thing is for real, so donīt worry;)

prospector
12-26-2003, 10:29 AM
I take it as 'Classic'
like Classic Coke

and not a step back.


Do you say when you buy a car "i don't mind the look and color of it, i just want to know if i can circulate with it", certainly not, so don't do this whith softwares you are using.
Actualy YES

I want a heavy duty pick-up

I want a Dodge Diesel

I want it to haul things

I don't want to wait if they don't have the exact color I want for them to produce 1
I need the truck when I go to get it.

Let's not hold up LW just because the buttons aren't 'cute'

Philours
12-26-2003, 10:34 AM
Prospector.. hopefully, everybody's not like you.
:)
I like to choose the colors of my cars.

Matt
12-26-2003, 10:49 AM
Thing is, you have to have code that draws a button on screen, why can't that code draw something that looks professional?

I'm saying this knowing that the UI designer over at NT is bound by legacy code that doesn't allow him to change everything, let's hope future versions of LightWave allow more customisation.

jr_sunshine
12-26-2003, 01:10 PM
Button color and bevel width.....

They are going to destroy [8]...


lol.....


lol.....



falling out of my chair....



lol.....

Kvaalen
12-26-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Matt
I'm saying this knowing that the UI designer over at NT is bound by legacy code that doesn't allow him to change everything, let's hope future versions of LightWave allow more customisation.

Do you happen by any chance to know what he can't change?

Based on the fake screenshots posted a while ago showing suggestions for the new interface, it looks like he has quite a bit of control.

anieves
12-26-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by CB_3D
VX is the best designed solution iīve seen so far. And yes, the 1 pixel thing is for real, so donīt worry;)

I love what Matt put together looks very nice indeed, I try to stay away from UI threads since to me seems pointless at this point but I agree that needs to look slick and professional because clients see them. We at work sometimes invite clients over to see us, the animators at work since most of the time they are clueless of the amount of work that goes behind the scenes. When they see us work you can tell in their faces that they are in awe and get excited, never fails.

sailor
12-26-2003, 02:20 PM
Button colors or interface design are not alone destroy LW but i remind you how many threads has been posted here about how beautiful LW interface was compraed to Maya for instance...now you LW fanboys have to make up your mind...is it or is it not important? or to be more accurate it is important when LW interface is beautiful but it is less important when it is not?

this is for me another proof that LW fanboys despite their love for LW are going to destroy the software by constantly hiding any flaw that could destroy the image of their favorite toy...

so no...colors or interface design wont destroy LW....LW fanatics will...

archiea
12-26-2003, 05:55 PM
I'm griping because NT made all of this noise about updating the UI, and it was not an improvement..

JR, you can laugh all you want.. but the advertising industry spends millions on image alone... yeah, yeah, its whats under the hood that counts.. but did that help Beta in comparison to VHS? Or Amiga compared to PC or mac? Nope. it was marketing of their competitors that allowed them to be bulldozed...

And NT posted the new GUI stating that it was soley to indicate that it was to signal a new relase of LW... hence marketing...

But that new GUI makes LW look like old software.. so, again, how does that help marketing? Especially if there isn't any new funtionality for the user?

prospector, comparing LW's 8 interface looking like 5.6 as classic coke... you're kidding me here, right?

its interesting to see that under Brad's regime, yeah the price of LW went up, but there was a real desire to push LW forward... yeah perhaps at the expense of sound code... now that we have the old regime back.. LW is looking like 5.6 again... hmmmm.... like I said it was looking inbred....

people were saying here that considering the release date was pushed back, don't pressure NT about the interface.. I agree!!!! In fact don't change a thing and leave it as 7.5!

I'm just so surprised, with the variety of examples that people have posted here as designers themselves that NT has remained so steadfast and hard headed about making LW 8 look.. well.. old.

jr_sunshine
12-26-2003, 07:42 PM
archiea,


JR, you can laugh all you want.. but the advertising industry spends millions on image alone... yeah, yeah, its whats under the hood that counts..

Sorry but image is not everything. A clear cohesive message and powerful image is what marketing is ALL about. Good design is form and function. Marketing requires this balance as well.


but did that help Beta in comparison to VHS? Or Amiga compared to PC or mac? Nope. it was marketing of their competitors that allowed them to be bulldozed...

Please.... please... The key ingredient is message. One way or another your message gets across. The question is: What message did my consumer get? The marketing failures did not get their message across. There are other factors that play into this as well. You mention the beloved SONY Beta.

Beta lost because SONY was stupid. Follow the money. SONY wanted it all and that is why they lost. BETA is better. Yep, I agree. SONY, in very artistic fashion, looked down on VHS. BETA's demise had nothing to do with marketing; it was the smug over-confidence of a big company.

The PC won because of the same thing that caused BETA to fail. IBM's smugness caused them to not see the forest for the trees. The open architecture and a little geek named Bill Gates turned the PC into a business revolution. MAC's lost because Steve Jobs cared more about the color and bevel width of buttons. I don't know enough about the amiga to comment but I would guess it bascially had to settle for third and that is why it never could catch on except for select types of users.


But that new GUI makes LW look like old software.. so, again, how does that help marketing? Especially if there isn't any new funtionality for the user?

I still dont understand this argument. What about the [8] interface will make your clients go running for the door? What will your clients use as a reference to look down their noses at your Lightwave [8]?


its interesting to see that under Brad's regime, yeah the price of LW went up, but there was a real desire to push LW forward... yeah perhaps at the expense of sound code... now that we have the old regime back.. LW is looking like 5.6 again... hmmmm.... like I said it was looking inbred....

Not sure what to say about this, but the videos posted by Proton are evidence that NewTek is serious. But then again, the color and bevel width of the buttons is in question here.

Happy Holidays.

Matt
12-27-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
Do you happen by any chance to know what he can't change . . .

Exactly, they were fake.

It appears button colour / style, general interface colours and general gadget layout.

But not anything drastic like font sensitivity or features like drag and drop, tear off menus, docking etc. etc. that would have to be done by the programmers I would imagine.

I am speculating here, but I know Kevin doesn't have a complete free reign, shame really.


Originally posted by jr_sunshine
I still dont understand this argument?

It's not an argument, it's a discussion ;) What I don't understand is why people are opposed to a professional looking interface? Ignore 8, I'm talking way, way beyond 8, they can only do so much in the short term.

The way I see it, LightWave has to have an interface, it has to work well, why can't it look the part too? What's wrong with it looking great to match it's great functionality?

Matt

archiea
12-27-2003, 09:27 AM
JR,

Show me a budwiser or Ford Focus or Mitubishi Eclipse commercial that is actually telling me about the product instead of bombarding me with *****. ell me, what was the message there? What do talking frogs have to do with beer, or a woman shattering a screen in a 1984 orewellian commercial has to do with a computer?

The "message" that the interface gave to some people when they looked at Mirage was that its "old". LW 8 screens are basically 5.6 screens which is like 7 years old....

And how did mac "lose" if it occupies the equivalent market of Mercedes or BMW? And jobs worried more about the bevels and the buttons... Are you going to argue even that, JR? For christ sakes... what did you see happen after iMacs came out? Colored PC's... who'd a thought... Same with Windows after I recall MSdos afficionados called mac's window system as inferior and unnecessary...

Mac "lost" the game of Market share when they didn't clone early enough like IBM, and almost lost their shirts when they cloned too late and took their own hardware sales out the door....

Amiga failed because commodore never marketed it.. meanwhile commodire as a company was run into the ground by its own management.. the way apple almost went in the mid 90's...

Its not clients that run out the door, its nothing as literal as that....

Take the recent events and news about NT from the past couple of years.. with the release of 8, its like a window into the company for outsiders.. and looking in the first thing tghey see is dated interface.... its just not the smartest of moves.. I mean 5.6 in 97 then 6.0 in 2000 or so... ok.... and now back to looking like 5.6 again in 2004... Explain that to me.. I'm all ears....

Philours
12-27-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by sailor
Button colors or interface design are not alone destroy LW but i remind you how many threads has been posted here about how beautiful LW interface was compraed to Maya for instance...now you LW fanboys have to make up your mind...is it or is it not important? or to be more accurate it is important when LW interface is beautiful but it is less important when it is not?

this is for me another proof that LW fanboys despite their love for LW are going to destroy the software by constantly hiding any flaw that could destroy the image of their favorite toy...

so no...colors or interface design wont destroy LW....LW fanatics will...

100000% agree !

This thread is the evidence that fanboys, even when they say they don't care about the look and feel (you know the thing that major companies put dozens of thousands of dollars in to win the competition, but sounds like a trivial detail for you), are always here to claim that people who just want a legitimate thing (a nice and useful UI) are childs or some kind of funny people.

I pay about 2000$ for this software, i'm a client, i have some desire as a client, the request is serious cause this product has some really serious competitors out there, and if i really feel frustrated with the global package [8] has to offer (functionalities + UI), i might really seriously consider switching as long as i'm not a blinded fanboy, and please don't tell me i would'nt find the functionnality into the other packages cause that's wrong, i'v used other packages for years and i choose LW mainly for the its price, now take a look at Maya's complete price and functionalities...

Here is the thing : if you don't bother working with a crappy and old looking UI, don't bother take part in the discussion cause you are not constructive at all, the only thing you do is stupidly laughing at people. If i follow your logic, as you don't mind the UI look, you won't mind if it'll be good looking, be coherent...

Leave us try to work on the subject and stop deny it.

Thanks.

bloontz
12-27-2003, 10:12 AM
In addition to the look of the interface, which I feel is important, it would be nice to see some adherance to established guidelines for interface interaction. It's confusing when an application ignores conventions set forth by the OS UI guidelines or widely established by a majority of other popular apps. At the very least there should be uniformity between modeler and layout.

cresshead
12-27-2003, 10:20 AM
can you imagine the threads if all the pre release screens of lightwave 8 were the same U.I as lightwave 7.5.....the uproar!
...comments like hey how come they [newtek] havn't changed the u.i!!!!

or how will people know it's ligtwave 8 if it looks the same as lightwave 7.5!!!! [except for the top left text that reads lightwave 8]

..geez you just can't please some people!;)

jr_sunshine
12-27-2003, 10:50 AM
archiea,

I think we are saying close to the same thing. I totally understand all of the valid points made in your last post. And... I do care about the interface and the image it conveys. I just never thought it looked that outdated. But... I never had LW 5.whatever to compare it to. That what I was saying about clients. What reference will they have?

If you look through all of my responses you will see I have been consistent in my stance as I focused just on the button color and bevel width. Even though I throw those lobs out no one ever hits it out of the park. Is there more to your complaint about the interface than just the color and bevel width of the buttons? What else about the interface makes it outdated? I have asked this a few times with no response.

Anyway, this is like beating a dead horse. Take care fellas. I hope you get the button color and bevel width you're looking for. I think LW [8] is going to be a great release. I wish it would have made it into our hands this year, but .....

Peace.

jr_sunshine
12-27-2003, 10:59 AM
matt,

I am not against a great looking interface. As I said in my post to archiea, I just felt the complaining about the color of the buttons seemed trival to me. It's still the same LW. But regardless....

I like the designs you have posted. But they are still YOUR interpretation of pro looking interface. You guys are assuming MOST people would choose your design over the current LW. Maybe most people like the current LW interface just fine. For example, I typically DONT like tabbed interfaces. I know they are necessary for apps as complex and large as LW but I just dont like them.

Anywhoo... I hope we all get what we want... the best LW ever in [8].

Happy holidays.

Kvaalen
12-27-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Matt
Exactly, they were fake.

It appears button colour / style, general interface colours and general gadget layout.

But not anything drastic like font sensitivity or features like drag and drop, tear off menus, docking etc. etc. that would have to be done by the programmers I would imagine.

I am speculating here, but I know Kevin doesn't have a complete free reign, shame really.

OK, thanks. That is what I expected. Just wanted to make sure it was possible to have the style or the look of your vX project (the darker ones, he he :) ).

One last question (I hope), if you don't mind. In your opinion is the interface Proton showed in the videos the final one (or more or less final)?

With the amount of books about LightWave [8], I suppose they should have an interface so that they can have screen shots in the books. Maybe the screenshots are made at the end, I don't know. Or maybe the people writing (and I suppose beta testing too) books about LightWave [8] have the fianl interface but Proton was showing us a basic interface to keep the final one a surprise. Just some ideas. :)

DaveW
12-27-2003, 11:27 AM
Aside from some of the issues Matt has pointed out (raised text, huge scrollbars) I think the LW8 interface looks a lot better than teh 6.x/7.x interface. Opinions are like armpits, everyone has one and they all stink! Rather than argue (*ahem* discuss) about the interface I think we should just push for a skinnable interface. Obviously there are limitations to what can be done with LW's interface so it wouldn't be as powerful as Matts vX idea, but at least it would allow those of use who like the ugly 8 interface to use it, and those who like the ugly 7 interface can use that, and people can design their own ugly interfaces and share them. A skinnable interface was planned for 6.0, pity it was scrapped.

Brett H.
12-27-2003, 01:39 PM
My wife had grown accustomed to seeing me work in Max. When I first brought LW7 home and loaded it up, she said "what the heck is that? It looks so professional!" I recently showed her some of the LW8 demo videos, and she could not believe that they had "ruined" (her word) the interface. She has no involvement in 3D, but the impression of the new UI counts in my mind (doesn't anyone have clients?).

To me it's a step backward.

Brett

WilliamVaughan
12-27-2003, 02:17 PM
My puppy Jack doesn't use LightWave but he seems much happier ever since I brought home LW8...:D

TSpyrison
12-27-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by proton
My puppy Jack doesn't use LightWave but he seems much happier ever since I brought home LW8...:D

Thats cruel..
:)

jr_sunshine
12-27-2003, 04:15 PM
Guys... stop... my side is hurting.

I cannot believe your clients are going to refuse your Kick-A work just because they don't like the LW interface.

I cannot even believe you are using that as the argument.

Mr. Client: We'll I would love to see what you have for my Branding campaign but my eyes hurt from looking at that horrible interface.... can you convert that to something MAX or Maya will load and then I can look at it...

Mr. Button color and bevel width loving LW artist: DANG !! Stupid jr_sunshine was wrong all along. Grrrrrr.

:D

dualboot
12-27-2003, 04:23 PM
For those who say let Newtek put all their efforts in bug fixes features etc. Since when does INTERACE DESIGNER does these things? His job is interface and programmers job is features, bugs

..... So how will interface designing interfere with actual programers job? Will it sudenly disrupt Newtek efforts on implying new features.

So all those saying let Newtek concentrate on program(like NT is one person), think twice before You write silly assumptions.

Proton, man don't be rude.Hear what Brett and more important his wife is saying, dont dismiss it so fast.

moje dve pare.

archiea
12-28-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
can you imagine the threads if all the pre release screens of lightwave 8 were the same U.I as lightwave 7.5.....the uproar!
...comments like hey how come they [newtek] havn't changed the u.i!!!!

or how will people know it's ligtwave 8 if it looks the same as lightwave 7.5!!!! [except for the top left text that reads lightwave 8]

..geez you just can't please some people!;)

7.0 didn't change much from 6.5... there waws no uproar... Much of the uproar regarding LW's gui is that some people feel that both modeler and Layout should be combined.....

archiea
12-28-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
archiea,

I think we are saying close to the same thing. I totally understand all of the valid points made in your last post. And... I do care about the interface and the image it conveys. I just never thought it looked that outdated. But... I never had LW 5.whatever to compare it to. That what I was saying about clients. What reference will they have?

If you look through all of my responses you will see I have been consistent in my stance as I focused just on the button color and bevel width. Even though I throw those lobs out no one ever hits it out of the park. Is there more to your complaint about the interface than just the color and bevel width of the buttons? What else about the interface makes it outdated? I have asked this a few times with no response.

Anyway, this is like beating a dead horse. Take care fellas. I hope you get the button color and bevel width you're looking for. I think LW [8] is going to be a great release. I wish it would have made it into our hands this year, but .....

Peace.

Regarding your first point.... yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and if you personally don;t have an issue with the proposed 8 interface, I'm not out to change your personal opinion...

But you were attempting to belittle this discussion by simplifying my points and mocking the discussion as just being about bevels and outlines. You were also oversimplifying my points by claiming that I said 8.0's bevels and outlines will make you loose clients...

Are you going to argue even that?

JR you made it clear that UI design, especially the aesthetics, is not as strong an issue as whats under the hood. Noted.. So why do you feel compelled to reply.. especially if you are just going to mock and belittle us?

archiea
12-28-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
Aside from some of the issues Matt has pointed out (raised text, huge scrollbars) I think the LW8 interface looks a lot better than teh 6.x/7.x interface. Opinions are like armpits, everyone has one and they all stink! Rather than argue (*ahem* discuss) about the interface I think we should just push for a skinnable interface. Obviously there are limitations to what can be done with LW's interface so it wouldn't be as powerful as Matts vX idea, but at least it would allow those of use who like the ugly 8 interface to use it, and those who like the ugly 7 interface can use that, and people can design their own ugly interfaces and share them. A skinnable interface was planned for 6.0, pity it was scrapped.

well put!!! ...and funny!!!!

DigiLusionist
12-28-2003, 12:21 AM
I'd like a skinnable UI, too. The one in the L8 demo vids are really a step in the wrong direction.

I'm an artist. I like to look at things that look well designed and subliminally attractive. A dark, blocky interface doesn't focus my eyes on my work, it makes me want to puke after five minutes.

So, for me, a sleek, tabbed interface with neutral tones and clean design elements are preferred.

I still think Matt's designs are the epitome of next generation LW.

archiea
12-28-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Brett H.
My wife had grown accustomed to seeing me work in Max. When I first brought LW7 home and loaded it up, she said "what the heck is that? It looks so professional!" I recently showed her some of the LW8 demo videos, and she could not believe that they had "ruined" (her word) the interface. She has no involvement in 3D, but the impression of the new UI counts in my mind (doesn't anyone have clients?).

To me it's a step backward.

Brett

Again, this is just brett's wife's opinion.. a wife with taste :D

I'm just curious, Brett, could your wife elaborate as to WHY 7X looked more professional?

I recall a significant number of people in the forum not liking the proposed GUI.. and yes there were many that liked it, or just didn't care....

So its safe to say that, as a vote, its all over the map... as the "don't cares" aren't the same as "yes we prefer the 8 screens".

I don't know.. especially since it is such a subject of preference...

But, at the expense of repeating myself, to address the practical issues...

As of the recent demos, there hasn;t been a FUNCTIONAL change in the gui, ala Photoshop Tabs or borwsers, right? and it was stated earlier that one, if not the, reason to change the interface was marketing: so that it looks different from 7.5 and says "new Lightwave". So where is the logic of making it look like a previous version of LW from 8 years ago?

I mean, yeah, ha ha, proton, your dog and all.. But instead of cracking jokes, could you just explain to me what stragedy is there behind NT wanting to make LW look like the way it did in 1997? And please, no more cracks.. I prepaid my $500 for 8.0... just share with us what the stragedy is behind NT with the particular interface change...

tasmanian
12-28-2003, 04:45 AM
I was okay with the 3.5/5.0 interface.
I liked the 5.5/5.6 interface.
I don't like the 6.0/7.5 interface.
I may or may not like the 8.0 interface.

But I will still be using LW as long as it has all the features I need.

I have worked with interfaces that were only two-bit, just a square with a text in it. Never did that cause us or clients to panic that maybe the apps we used were not professional, they did the job, that's important.

Some people might go by the look of things to buy or not buy and I'm sure NT would do well to market their product right but for me it won't make any difference. It's not the interface that does the job.:)

badllarma
12-28-2003, 04:53 AM
To be honest so long at it works I do not really give a toss about the interface the only thing I would say on the matter is it has to be easy on the eyes and let the actual work stand out which looking at the new interface it does on both accounts :)

stone
12-28-2003, 05:13 AM
looks does matter though. when people have to go out and buy the software much of their judging and setting their mind is based on looking at screenshots as well as features.

only when people actually have the software in their hands will they judge the workflow, and often people will put up with a lacking interface if it looks good enough.

i wont judge lw8 just yet. we all know how lightwave works and that we (mostly) like the workflow. others looking from the sideline perhaps considering to buy it doesn't have the knowledge we do.

a customisable interface would obviously be a good thing but hardly make or break 8. hopefully it will be a feature of an upcomming version.

/stone

RiGLEY
12-28-2003, 05:31 AM
What do you think about this, i have changed the position of the text on the buttons, and removed a gap. I think it looks better this way.

anim. gif:

Philours
12-28-2003, 07:07 AM
I agree with the comment saying we need a clean and no fancy design UI.
To answer to JR, concerning some precise points about what i dislike in the current UI are :
- stop using colors, and in particular clear ones like light blue or light green, it hurts. :) I prefer a monochromatic UI with real separators that makes it clear, a basic grey tones one (with the possibility to lighten or darken is a plus) lets me focus on my work.
- stop using bevels and other graphical stuff that avoid the eye to focus on the work panel.
Generally speaking i think we misanderstand ourselves, what we are asking for (at least what I am asking for :) ), is not a pink/yellow/blue eye candy dinky-toy UI, we just want something looking clear and modern, something that lets us focus on the work panel and not on all the oldies "star-trek" like buttons. Using some modern cut in the shapes of windows (like Matt presents in the vX mokup) are just something making all the stuff more modern, slick and usefull.
I still don't understand why people react as proposing tons of colors or effects where we just need something CLEAN and SIMPLE, something professionnal...

Hope this helps...

Matt
12-28-2003, 07:22 AM
jr_sunshine, just wanted to point out I am in no way replying to these threads to push any ideas I have come up with, every time I mention it I try to point out that it's _one_ idea, not the ONLY idea, I'm not after praise, if people liked what I did, great, if not that's fine too.

I merely frequent threads about the interface because I have a strong interest in the subject, that's all, I really hope people don't think I'm trying to be all high and mighty on the subject, I enjoy interface design, but by no means am I an authority on the subject.

Nobody is saying that the v8 interface will make clients run for the door at all, apart from some small issues with some of the interface redraw, and (IMO) oversized buttons / scrollbars I prefer it to v7.5. We're simply saying that these small tweaks will help v8 look more professional, and it's for _our_ benefit when showing stuff to people, it makes us feel better!

That's all really, if there's stuff we can do in simple manner to help improve the look then we'd be fools not to voice our opinion now.

:)

Matt

anieves
12-28-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
Guys... stop... my side is hurting.

I cannot believe your clients are going to refuse your Kick-A work just because they don't like the LW interface.

I cannot even believe you are using that as the argument.

Mr. Client: We'll I would love to see what you have for my Branding campaign but my eyes hurt from looking at that horrible interface.... can you convert that to something MAX or Maya will load and then I can look at it...

Mr. Button color and bevel width loving LW artist: DANG !! Stupid jr_sunshine was wrong all along. Grrrrrr.

:D

but clients do compare! we have 2 animation teams where I work, the first team uses XSI the second (where I'm at) use mainly LW and a bit of Max. When clients pass by thet do notice.
I still think that we have seen after the DFX inspiered designs are just place holders... at least I hope so. Why don't we just wait for the release of 8 and then we can take it appart all we want.?:confused:

sailor
12-28-2003, 12:05 PM
"Guys... stop... my side is hurting.

I cannot believe your clients are going to refuse your Kick-A work just because they don't like the LW interface.

I cannot even believe you are using that as the argument.

Mr. Client: We'll I would love to see what you have for my Branding campaign but my eyes hurt from looking at that horrible interface.... can you convert that to something MAX or Maya will load and then I can look at it...

Mr. Button color and bevel width loving LW artist: DANG !! Stupid jr_sunshine was wrong all along. Grrrrrr. "


yea sure you are trying to understimate what you obviously understand that is important...nobody in here is saying that a client will refuse a work because of LW interface...no need to exagerate NOR understimate....this constant behavior of some kind of fanatics pisses me off really...if you want to kill somebody elses argument, then making them look obviously childish by your post is in lesson 1, page 1 of the manual...and gives a good idea of your difficulty of making a mature and constructive argument.
There are certainly lots of arguments for the LW 8 interface design but as far as it goes you haven't pointed any.

period.

jr_sunshine
12-28-2003, 02:52 PM
sailor,

Not even sure what you said.... but nice to meet you.

matt,

Please don't take any of my comments as criticism. I really do like your interface designs and was just using you as an example. :)

Philours,

I am all for CLEAN and SIMPLE. I think we are all on the same page. I felt the need to be the voice of opposition. It just seemed like a lot of people were complaining about the interface and it seemed like it was just the color of the buttons.

Anyway... take care all.

sailor
12-28-2003, 03:04 PM
Jr sunshine,

nice to meet you too....:)

"I felt the need to be the voice of opposition"

maybe this is the problem...nobody asked you to be the voice of any "opposition" and if you are hearing voices that tells you to do so please think of changing your nickname to Joan of arc or something similar...

take care

archiea
12-28-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by tasmanian


I have worked with interfaces that were only two-bit, just a square with a text in it. Never did that cause us or clients to panic that maybe the apps we used were not professional, they did the job, that's important.

Some people might go by the look of things to buy or not buy and I'm sure NT would do well to market their product right but for me it won't make any difference. It's not the interface that does the job.:)

I have also worked with two bit interfaces... 15 years ago.... its funtional, but that doesn't make it preferable

there isn't an issue of funtionality here.. its aesthetics... and if there is an effort with the aesthetics, then why make it look old?

Taking all of the recent criticisms of Lw and NT... where they feel that the features and workflow are outdate.. it looks like the aesthetic of the interface now are going to match that,....

riki
12-28-2003, 05:39 PM
No 2 bit interfaces now, it's all going 64 bit.

sorry in a finny mood today :)

Brett H.
12-29-2003, 05:00 PM
While the "puppy joke" at my expense was a bit funny (if a bit lowbrow), I think this is more a more serious issue than some are making it out to be. Yeah, I know, clients aren't going to run out the door when they see the interface of your chosen app, but do you really think that it doesn't matter at all?

Let's just say I was writing a manuscript for someone, and I showed them samples in notepad. Not too professional. And let's remember, these clients usually are relatively computer savvy. The look of the app I'm working in sends a definite vibe to an observer. Just as someone can walk into a clean, modern office and say "hey, this is nice": it might not directly effect their decisions, but it leaves an impression that "these people are pro".

As for my wife's opinion on the UI, she says that the 7.x interface is "just cleaner, easier to look at, looks like it wouldn't hurt your eyes to work in it all day long. It looks professional." So, love of my life, what's so wrong with the new UI: "it's way too contrasty[sic], what's with all the black and cyan? It hurts your eyes to look at it. It looks old!" This woman is a webmaster, someone I always look to for her opinion on design decisions, so I do not take her words lightly, nor do I compare her to a puppy.

Brett

WilliamVaughan
12-29-2003, 05:28 PM
I take my puppy very serious...he has helped me over the past few months keep my sanity when reading the forums. And in no way was I comparing your wife to a dog.

Robert Zeltsch
12-29-2003, 05:34 PM
I work closely with my clients. And it`s a good feeling to show cool features implemented in a cool interface. That is an interesting effect - because most of them don`t know how a 3D application really works. So they are looking at the interface and wait until something happens.
And there is the point. With LW7 they are looking on the screen and the next what they say is: "cool..." :-)
The same effect appears with Digital Fusion. With realtime tools this effect is stronger. The clients are confronted with an interface they have never seen before. But it looks "cool" and shows in what "cool" environment the job will be created or finished.

In the current state of the LW8 interface - most of my clients will think: "Is this an old version??" This question appears, because they don`t know about LightWave8. But they have seen Combustion, Digital Fusion and XSI. (even if they don`t know how these programs exactly works.)

What I want to say: When you work closely with your clients - the result is not the only thing wich counts. In the eyes of the client, it is the way how you built up the result. And this effect have an impact if you get an further job from this client or not.

I know - everyone have an own opionion of how the interface should be created. It is the best way that the user can define the colors. (or make a "skinable" interface, if it is possible)

Thank you for reading...



(...and sorry for my humble english)

Brett H.
12-29-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by proton
I take my puppy very serious...he has helped me over the past few months keep my sanity when reading the forums. And in no way was I comparing your wife to a dog.
Thanks, I appreciate that proton.

I agree with Robert, the "cool" factor just isn't there in this latest UI. Every program gets an "updated" UI with a new version, while tools tend to stay where the users expect to find them. But, unless it improves workflow, a change this drastic isn't usually seen. It just seems a shame that an interface that I and others I work with considered ahead of its' time seems to be moving backward. This is all, however, subject to opinion, and we all know how that goes.

Brett

Karmacop
12-29-2003, 06:08 PM
I know everyone, especially at Newtek, are probably getting sick of the UI posts on here but I just thought I'd say why I thought the 6+ interface was good.

It took the old looking interface (version 5)and made it look better, as far as having 'interesting' gradients and a brushed metal look (I can hardly notice it though), while keeping alot of the old interface look in terms of placement/colour/size etc. LW8 seems to going back to this LW5 look, which was there because of old interface limits.

Anyway, that's all I'll say. I'll get LW8 no matter what. And we should all stop whinging, because at least LW isn't using standard windows beveled buttons like some programs, that'd be really embarrassing to show a client ;)

wgreenlee1
12-29-2003, 09:35 PM
get rid of the UI
"deleteUI -window $window;"....lol

you should be able to run any 3D program with little or no interface fluidly

Tesselator
12-29-2003, 10:02 PM
Oh my,
One pixel up or one down. Beveled or flat, Round edges or
square corners, etc. etc. etc. How about the font set? or gadget
style and bg image selection? How about radio buttons vrs
the usuall check boxes -- and in ten different shapes? What
about coordinated sets or presets so you can get the app to
look any way you want? Tear-off menu strips? Drag and drop to
build your own custom control pannels I agree with all of your
interface ideas! But I only know of one to way that you'll all be
satisfied. Customizability :D And I'm not "taking" this idea from
some "other" specific place. Well I am but not the place you
might be thinking of. Anyone reading this from the old Amiga
days? Or still working with an Amiga? Ever hear of an OS GUI
add on called MUI from sasg www.sasg.com ? What about
something like that for LW? I bet maybe even an MUI tool set
code base could be licenced or purchased from Stefan Stuntz the
developer of MUI. Anyway wheather it's purchased and ported
or developed anew Amiga users have had the ability to totally
customize on-the-fly, nearly every aspect of thier GUI for a long
long time and it's very popular not to mention easy to use. It's
OOP which means speedy and smooth too.

Anyway when all is said and done no two will ever agree on
how the GUI "should" look as is evident by the very existance of
this this thread. So why not give everyone what they want?
Let them build thier own and/or use a few presets?

Philours
12-30-2003, 04:18 AM
I totally agree with Tesselator, and on top of that it'll give the opportunity for Newtek to set up some UI contests and get tons of customized UI for free. :) And it will make people happy cause, like actual presets, they shall be able just to pick the existing ones that best fits their needs or create the only personnal one they really need.
And on top of that it will give NT a rest... :)

Matt
12-30-2003, 05:16 AM
obviously for v8 they're changing what they can with the old code, so a re-write just ain't gonna happen (which is needed to implement features like drag and drop, tear off menus etc.)

so in the mean time I just wish they'd spend a bit of time tidying up what they're doing now, I've posted this in another thread but may as well shove it here too.

this is the expression editor as it stands, most gadgets don't line up neatly, there are huge gaps that take up valuable screen space (note the huge gap between the scrollbars and the node display, why is that so big?)

Matt
12-30-2003, 05:18 AM
and this is just a quick example showing how it can be cleaned up a little by spending some time on it:

shermanlu
12-30-2003, 05:31 AM
yap, Matt is right!!!

LW8's interface shows NO design at all, NT should do some clean up work just like Matt did...at least!!!

Kvaalen
12-30-2003, 06:21 AM
I totoaly agree with Matt though I still have some crits. ;)

First I'd get rid of the "Expression" and "Element" text you added and give more work space. I'd also put the part on the top (where you can edit the expression manually) on the bottom. I think people are more used to it there. I also don't see why the "Generate Expression" button has so much blank space on both sides. I think it is big enough already. If you take off some of the blank space on both sides of that button, you can have more of a gap between the new, save, delete buttons and it.

Ok... enough negetive stuff from me for now. :)
Did you guys notice the stay on top button and the little triangle (that I think minimizes the window when the mouse is taken off and maximises it when it is put back on)? Really cool!

prospector
12-30-2003, 06:32 AM
Right on Tesselator

MUI..best interface ever made.

But let 8 get out before all this poop about buttons holds up 8 even longer. Easy to redesign in photoshop, but to recode??

If your work is so dependent on button colors and bevels then....

A customer wants what they want (usually yesterday) and doesn't care how they get it. And how will they 'know' if it 'looks' old?
By comparing to other programs?? Like they can 'tell' what's 'old' by colors? Bevels? Maby we should go to silly icony thingys, like other programs.

Let a programmer do an upgrade and sell it on thier own as a plug-in (aka MUI)

But Let LW8 come out and work on bevels and colors later. Production is always more important than bevels.

Philours
12-30-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by prospector
But Let LW8 come out and work on bevels and colors later. Production is always more important than bevels.

And here we go again... :(

Tesselator
12-30-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Philours
And here we go again... :(

No. He's right. Well kinda. Actually i think almost nothing we
say here is going to effect L8 one way or the other. At least
that would be my guess. What he's right about is the near
impossibility of having it in L8 or even considered for L8 at
this very late stage in it's development.

BTW Matt, and here's what I mean... I liked the first pic you
posted better than the one you cleaned up. Hehehe. It's
like my eyes can find the button sets and text gadgets easier
and imediatly precieve some structural or segrigate functionality
to them by thier location and borders.

In all honesty tho I don't care either way really. Both look
usable to the same degree after being there and doing it
once or twice.

WilliamVaughan
12-30-2003, 10:42 AM
As usual Matt has worked up some great mockups....I have sent it in to the dev team and they have it. No promises on anything changing for Lightave Eight but there is a great future for LightWave and it's dev team and there can always be adjustments in future builds.

We always are open to feedback and the best place for feedback like this is in the Feature Request area of teh forums or better yet send the dev team an email at:

[email protected]



Thanx for everyones passion for wanting to make LightWave the best that it can be....I know that is my goal as well!

DaveW
12-30-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Kvaalen

Did you guys notice the stay on top button and the little triangle (that I think minimizes the window when the mouse is taken off and maximises it when it is put back on)? Really cool!

That's probably from the video card drivers. I have Nview setup to have those buttons on my titlebar too, they're very handy.

Alan Daniels
12-30-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
I'd like a skinnable UI, too. The one in the L8 demo vids are really a step in the wrong direction.

Actually I really the new look. :) It stays out of the way, like all good user interfaces should.

A question for Proton, if you happen to read this: Can I take it that Newtek maintains their own cross-platform GUI library for use in LW? Are the any plans down the road, say for version 9 or so, to move to one of the more common cross-platform GUIs, such as QT or wxWindows?

Personally I think it would be a great idea, with many benefits both for Newtek and LW users: It would free Newtek from having to spend effort maintaining their own GUI library and thus would free up more resources for concentrating on pure LW features. The skinnability would be there for free, at least for QT, so all of related look-and-feel debates would simply melt away. It would allow plug-in developers to do much more elaborate control panels. Also, it would allow easy migration to a Linux should the need ever arise... not the case now, but the Linux desktops are getting better all the time, and when Microsoft infuriates the world in a couple of years with their "buy Longhorn or else" strategy, who knows?.

No big deal, just curious.

Matt
12-30-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
First I'd get rid of the "Expression" and "Element" text

I didn't spend a huge amount of time on it at all, it was a quick mockup!

I hear what you're saying though - why add them when removing them will allow more space, well for new users I think it will help seperate the two parts - expression (the whole thing, which is why I put all the expression functions at the top, together) and the elements - sub-part of the expression, which is why they are at the bottom in logical hierarchy.

I'd also put the expression part on the bottom, I think people are more used to it there

As pointed out above, the are all grouped together - all expression functions, and all element functions, it seemed to make sense at the time.

I also don't see why the "Generate Expression" button has so much blank space on both sides.

It's that size because that's that how big it was on the original, I didn't change everything, like I said it was a quick mockup!

Did you guys notice the stay on top button and the little triangle (that I think minimizes the window when the mouse is taken off and maximises it when it is put back on)

I think that is a Windows utility that Proton has on his laptop, not a new feature in LW8!


Originally posted by Tesselator

I liked the first pic you posted better than the one you cleaned up. Hehehe. It's like my eyes can find the button sets and text gadgets easier

I see what you mean, my mockup is quite 'compact', gadgets do need some space to 'breathe', my point was to hilight the extra use of space and the 'untidyness' of the gadget layout, It wasn't meant to come across as "here's the best way of doing it!" :)


Originally posted by Proton

As usual Matt has worked up some great mockups

Why thanks Proton, I was wondering whether I was p!ssing everyone off at NT with my incessant posting about the interface, I'm glad you know I mean well!

Thanx for everyones passion for wanting to make LightWave the best that it can be

This is why I do what I'm doing, I love LightWave, maybe that doesn't come across in my posts but it really is the truth! :)

Matt

WilliamVaughan
12-30-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Matt
[b]

[b]As usual Matt has worked up some great mockups

Why thanks Proton, I was wondering whether I was p!ssing everyone off at NT with my incessant posting about the interface, I'm glad you know I mean well!

Thanx for everyones passion for wanting to make LightWave the best that it can be

This is why I do what I'm doing, I love LightWave, maybe that doesn't come across in my posts but it really is the truth! :)

Matt



Yours is always constructive criticism....we are always listening and do what we can....you seem to understand that and it is appreciated.

The Dev team has all your requests as well as everyone elses....we will continue to make LightWave a tool that is perfect for our users....

Matt
12-30-2003, 08:10 PM
Thanks Proton, make no mistake, I'm looking forward to LW8, the features been shown so far are going to make it a kick-*** version, and it can only get better with every release.

The one thing I love about NT is the fact that they are so close to their users, they listen, more so than any other software writers I know, and that benefits users and NT alike.

I feel very positive about the future of LW and NT, not that I was ever in any doubt, but I feel they are getting back to the essence of what made NewTek the company it is now, and that's a good thing!

:)

archiea
12-31-2003, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by proton
Yours is always constructive criticism....we are always listening and do what we can....you seem to understand that and it is appreciated.

The Dev team has all your requests as well as everyone elses....we will continue to make LightWave a tool that is perfect for our users....

...and had I had and avalon... it would have been posted on the dart board at NT....:p

colkai
12-31-2003, 04:43 AM
Matt,
I can only add a here..here
Plus, the tidying up of the "free-space" you did on the mock up was really nice!

Like you, I'm sure when LW[8] arrives it will be worth the cost of the upgrade, pound for pound .. bang for buck !

Nuff said. :D