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Beamtracer
12-23-2003, 04:50 PM
Did everyone catch Chuck's announcement (in the General forum) that Lightwave 8 won't come before 2004?

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15571

I have the impression that some of the Mac users may have missed it.

Turner
12-23-2003, 05:16 PM
Well, I'll tell ya....

As a person who uses... ah... software, I'm always reading about software to find out if what's in it interests me, and, as you may know (since you've responded to a few of my threads) I'm reading a bunch about LW.

Now, the fact that the latest version is somewhat buggy on Mac is certainly something that makes me wonder a bit; if these issues are resolved in version 8, I'm just about there for the purchase.

But the thing I like the most, and would like to see more of, is waiting to release software (of whatever type - utilities, games, etc.) until they're ready.

So, a note to NewTek: TAKE YOUR TIME and get everything working as it should for every platform you're releasing to.

I'd rather wait an extra 6 months for clear sailing than hack my way across an island of bugs.

archiea
12-23-2003, 05:22 PM
Heh heh heh.. 6 months... Heh he... Nt, don;t listen to Turner, he's been drinking again... i think he meant six weeks, damn that Tequila!!! :p

drclare
12-23-2003, 05:53 PM
No, i agree, if it takes an extra six months to get rid of all the bugs, and they really do get rid of all the bugs, then i'd say the wait would be worth it.

archiea
12-23-2003, 07:01 PM
heh heh.. if you thought Turner was drunk, well drclare is just plain crazy!! I heard backin the army days, Drclare was the sole volunteer for the parachutless paratrooping division....

I mean, those guys jump outta planes without parachutes!!!

Beamtracer
12-23-2003, 07:59 PM
Turner, the LW 7.5 "bugs" are all just incompatibilities with the new Panther OS. If you run OS X 10.2.7 on your G5 then Lightwave 7.5 will be more stable than it is on Windows. It will work very well.

When you purchase your G5, I still think you should ask the Apple dealer if they can give you a 10.2.7 disk in addition to Panther.

Alternately, I think Lightwave 8 is pretty close to release. Newtek tried to get it out before Christmas. They didn't make it, but I think it's not far off.

Turner
12-23-2003, 08:05 PM
Well, I can wait.. from what I read, the benefits of Panther outweigh the inconsistencies in LW... I haven't fired up the G5 yet so I don't know what's installed, but it came with a 10.3 disc.

As far as the wait goes, I'm certainly not jumping at buying anything just to scratch an itch (and a big itch it is!) and I'm hoping that as NewTek posts their LW 8 info/screens/movies I find some of the "extras" I'm looking for as far as particles and physics go.

Cheers,
Andrew

drclare
12-23-2003, 08:33 PM
so archiea, you're happy with buggy software? You're excited about wasting days or weeks trying to find workarounds? Obviously i know that there will always be bugs no matter how long they take, but wouldn't you rather they make a usable piece of software rather than give you a piece of junk early? Besides, you still have 7.5

archiea
12-23-2003, 08:37 PM
thats the best part, andrew.. the mac has all of this software built in... iMovie, iDVD, iPhotos, iTunes, iPorn...

I recommend the .mac thingie too, especially since you can get it for $70 instead of $99 since you just got your machine....

I find it convenient to have a mac friendly FTP-like service and the extra mail account.. I use it for all things apple to not clutter my current email with mac geekfest.... yOu also get some free software... the iDisk stuff is so transparent, especially in panther... you get Back-up 2 for .. well.. backing up.

Take beam's advice, stick with .7, stay wasy from panther for now... Panther really isn't worth it if you are a LW user, and you can still use the iLife software... just ignor updates for the next month or so until LW 8 is out...

archiea
12-23-2003, 08:49 PM
Dclare....

I have 7.5, but it had to be on a panther system... and the graph editor is not useable... so no, i don't like buggy software....

NT should have not placed such an emphasis on the date... I assume it was to get revenue in with the prerelease.. I think this is the main cause of the frustration.. people got personal emails that said, "LW 8 is out in 72 days... order it now!!!" yes we did get DFX +, and I have a PC too that I can use that on...

But condider the avg mac user...

Apple likes to move fast on their software, so when panther came out, all of these updates came out for FCP, shake, DVDpro...especially for G5 users... So you are forced to either not update FCP.. which really needed it, or running LW...

Add to that that the sale offered no benefit to mac users other than the abilty to sell the DFX + package...

So its a bit of a bind....

If LW 8 is 6 months away, I say people have a right to be angry, as that is not 72 days, and I doubt a fix for the graph editor is in place.....

I still wish NT the best in gettingit out though.... But considering that previously Nt policy was not to announce software until its released, it seems that this recent change it policy was to lure more revenue in early on/....

Beamtracer
12-23-2003, 09:18 PM
Archiea, I thought you'd posted long ago on other forums that you had switched to a Windows box for Lightwave. I thought you'd switched long before Panther came out.

Darth Mole
12-24-2003, 02:42 AM
I'd much prefer that LW8 was finished and slick and bug-free, but I'm disappointed that NT have managed to miss a self-appointed deadline yet again. Especially after publically and on record stating that it would, definitely, be available this year.

I know software developemnt is a shifting sands type of situation - but NewTek are past masters at deadline avoidance.

Its sig should be that quote from Douglas Adams: "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past..."

archiea
12-24-2003, 02:48 AM
Nope. I got a windows system for games and use it an aux system for graphics. being that I'm primarily Shake, and now Inferno again, at least for Shake, Apple is a bit of a wiser choice...

At my jobs we use linux still, and perhaps for a while..

riki
12-24-2003, 04:10 AM
Gives me more time to keep saving.

Beamtracer
12-24-2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by archiea
At my jobs we use linux still, and perhaps for a while.. Are you still compositing for Disney?

How are you finding Linux on the job?

strongarm27
12-24-2003, 02:01 PM
I posted in another thread so I will make this
short they need to fix 7.5 because you can't
get 10.2.7 from apple anymore. They will
not give it out. So Newtek's present product
is incompatible with new hardware. I have to
jump to my pc to make a ajustment to a dam
key. That should be fixed and the greater the
delay for 8 the greater the economic need to
fix it.

shawn ogle

riki
12-24-2003, 06:40 PM
Does this mean you've just bought your first Mac and it came with 10.3 and no other soft options. My Apple Dealer always asks before installing an OS.

riki
12-24-2003, 06:42 PM
Check ebay lots of cheap copies of 10.2 on offer.

archiea
12-24-2003, 10:25 PM
Beam...

disney dumped us all out on the street over a year ago when The Secret Lab closed down :mad: Then disney went produce films like the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Carribean and sub-contracted all of that work... work that we were geared to work on after Reign of Fire and kangaroo jack...

then i went to Cinesite, and then they closed down last Spring after X-men 2 !!! :mad: :mad:

Then I went to DD and worked on a show that left the artist planning careers outside the biz like real-estate and so forth 'cause it was just so bad....

its been.... interesting.....

it was great seeing all of the 'wavers at DD though... real talented, those guys.. alot of cross polinating with Maya. Nuke was a pleasant surprise as far as home brewed software.. I hope they plan to market it more aggressively and competatively...

Linux behaved itself for the most part... alot of what we didn't like were the lack of ameneties available on windows and mac.. like flash and streaming ability... Linux is exactly what the studios wanted.. a lowest common denominator OS to slap on a Xeon 2ghz DP and call it a no frills artist station.

I think OS-X people, especially script and irix savy people would like linux... I found my transition from using SGi to linux workstations as easy, though I'm not one to tinker under the hood....

But I'll take an aqua run Shake station any day....

strongarm27
12-25-2003, 02:34 AM
The mac came directly from apple and 1.5hrs on
the phone got me take it or return it. And no
version of 10.2 wil run on g5's except 10.2.7 or
above so going out and buying 10.2 will not work,
got to get it in the mac or your done. This isn't
my first mac. I think I can dig up a copie o.s. 6
some were on flopies. I even have a mint copie
of aldus freehand 1.lol if anyone really needs a
bitchen vector drawing program.

oh ya merry christmas!

shawn ogle

Turner
12-25-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by archiea
disney dumped us all out on the street over a year ago when The Secret Lab closed down

Didn't have anything to do with Treasure Planet, did it?

tumblemonster
12-25-2003, 01:45 PM
Flay Linked to some videos about new features in LIghtwave 8.

I'm downloading the other three direct FTP, for some reason they wont go through the borwser.

-tm

NonPlanar
12-25-2003, 07:59 PM
It will go through the browser if you do one at a time... must be a bandwidth regulation thingamajig

archiea
12-26-2003, 04:43 AM
Turner...

it has to do with Eisner, story by committe, and greed...

Turner
12-26-2003, 04:56 AM
And I thought greed was good!


Originally posted by archiea
Turner...

it has to do with Eisner, story by committe, and greed...

Beamtracer
12-26-2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by archiea
Linux is exactly what the studios wanted.. a lowest common denominator OS to slap on a Xeon 2ghz DP and call it a no frills artist station. It sounds like these studios are rather stingy. They don't want to spend much money on artists' workstations.

Maybe they won't want to fork out the money to give their artists G5 Macs.


Originally posted by archiea
disney dumped us all out on the street over a year ago I'm sorry to hear that times have been tough.

I think that the film industry will pick up for US based crew. This is because the US dollar is in freefall. Particularly relevant is that the US dollar has fallen substantially against the Canadian dollar and the Australian dollar. These two countries grabbed a lot of work, but the currency changes will now make them expensive and uncompetitive. Work will now come back to the US.

archiea
12-26-2003, 07:44 AM
yeah that does play a part....

But I think the problems plaguing our biz is on several fronts...

1) production: its become sloppier and sloppier.. with a more compressed shooting dates, more complex visual effect, and more hacks that call themselves visual effects sups.. I mean I can take a class in "visual effects suping" and IMHO that is a dis-service to the veterens of the past.. because they were constantly learning their craft, and a "visual effects class" back then meant a degree in photography or physics or mechanical engineering and you may want to throw film in there some where...

2) post production: Compressed because production was late in delivering plates for the above reason.. Or, if you are dreamworks or disney, you spent 20% to 50% of your time and resources redeveloping a pipeline.. yet again... redoing crap as decided by commitee, and doing a complete overkill of a 5 - 7 min trailer that doesn;t even realistically test the pipeline.. now you have 50% of your time left to, well, do the whole movie...

3) managmenet in general..... Producers too weak to wrangle in their going-in-circles visual FX sup because they were pals at their last gig or because who cares what.. point is nobody is out there playing bad cop and asking if we really need to change the animation of the tail in the two frames that it motion blurs by since that was approved two months ago and we are trying to meet our filmout date... In english it means that I've seen alot of staff Vfx sups eat time in a production like Anna nicole Smith going through the complimentary muffins at a holiday in... I've seen a complete lack of an understanding of going from broad strokes to fine strokes.. I've seen too many idiot savant wanna be's who don't even have an eye, and sprout techy jargon or just plain buz words that makes you think if you read bumnper stickers in a review sessions, you'd get farther...

4) Philosophy of talent by management.. Visionaries have been replaced with bean counting MBA's. Two to five year contract have been replaced with at-will contracts.. So, as an artist, as soon as you walk in the door, you are considered cost, and from that point its a race to unload the talent as soon as possible. So there is a constant rotation of talent.. sometimes right smack in the middle of a show.. So no consistancy in talent.. Then its how that talent is managed both in workflow and in scheduling..

Workflow-wise, shows have become as top heavy as typical LA stripper.. There are endless parades of stupid-visers that, when they are not fighting amonst themselves and marking their territory, they are often adding to a new beareaucratic layer in production complete with power trips and the micro managing of artist.. The noose has been so tight sometimes that they crticise the fawking nodes you use in a script without ever looking at the comp... meanwhile the sky was supposed to be orange and its been blue for four months because, again, no sense of broadstrokes first.. I blame this on Cinefex and DVD interviews because everybody want to get into those now and say how they saved the day with their idea...

Scheduling wise, supposedly more is better... where if you work 36 hours straight,... its better than over three days... now its 10 hours minimum in places with a tendancy to go to 12 to 14 hours along with six day weeks... Seven day weeks have been know to happen over months... this is a complete and utter failure in management....

At disney we worked on a quota system.. say 150 feet were due a day.. if you missed 25, then 175 was due next week.. point is even a year before the due date, you'd know if you were behind... this is perhaps because disney has had 60 years in the business of handling hundreds of "effects" shots.. In many VFX companies, I've seen deadlines bulldozed over so many times... in fact they consider the last two or three months of all nighters a tradition.. In the optical days I can see that.. and yeah, with 3D heavy shows things can ge crazy, but in general, this has got to change...

5) Revenge of the nerds: back in the mid '90's, defense contracts shrunk and the govt paid for alot of classes for displaced tech people.. alot of them came into the vfx biz... well it was booming at the time.. Now propeller heads have entrenched themselves everywhere.. Now alot of them are kewl and I consider them as valuable as my right hand, but some, enough, have made the companies i;ve worked for reinvent the wheel so many times.. this "pipeline" buzz word makes me want to choke someone... part of it is because now everybody has their own lighting package, compositing package, shader editing, whatever.. And its needed to be flexible enough to be cutting edge.. But some of that stuff can;t compete with the commodity FX out there.. i've recalled having far more options and tools and features in the commercial pacjages that I used at home that in the proprietary stuff I used at work.... And i;ve seen too many people with tunnel vision, who have worked on their precious pipeline and dare not to look outside..

I recall disney spending a ton of cash to develop alot of custom tools and technologies. then I saw Blood the last Vampire.. done on Animo, After Effects and Lightwave and.. well... Disney film cost 140 million and Blood was like 4 million ... now was the disney movie 35x better than blood.. well....

best thing that could happen to disney is to use off the shelf software and hire the kewlist artist on the planet...

I can go on, but i'll just bore you all... in a word, we're fawked...

Beamtracer
12-26-2003, 05:28 PM
Wow! Bad management, bean counters making creative decisions, pipelines, sups and wankers, proprietary software.

Sad that it's true.

euge04
12-26-2003, 08:26 PM
Will Lightwave 8 be optimized for the G5 like FCP 4, DVDSP were?

MStrickland
12-27-2003, 03:27 PM
I'm impressed with your patience, you guys. It's admirable. I agree that buggy software is not the best. But it's almost always BEEN buggy, if you look back. My problem is that there are no workarounds to the fatal issues with 7.5c and Panther.

I'm really trying to be positive about this, but I just can't seem to muster good feelings about not being able to use the latest LW on the latest Mac OS. I'd really like to just sit happily and wait for Newtek to create a patch for 7.5c so it will work on 10.3.x, but in the mean time, we're forced to use other methods, and it's costing us dearly. (And there seems to be some doubt as to whether Newtek is going to support 7.5x/Mac AT ALL.)

I wasn't feeling all that great about being forced to pay $495/seat for a fix either, (8) although we'd probably do it, just to keep going. Then you have the unforseeable headaches (and their associated costs) of converting projects to a newer version midstream. I feel very strongly that Newtek should have been working closely with Apple, and created and released a Panther patch for 7.5x concurrently with Panther's release. And I'm surprised that they haven't done it YET! Which is why I'm disappointed.

If they were actually supporting the Mac OS (not just talking about it), then they wouldn't have been caught with their pants down when Panther was released. Would they do this to their Intel users? I wonder.

IMO, Newtek needs to renew their commitment to the Mac OS. And they need to redouble their efforts to be working with Apple. As it is, Newtek may go to sleep, but Apple never does.

Michael

archiea
12-27-2003, 10:13 PM
I agree, MStrickland....

I was in the middle of learning animation in 7.5c, but I had to upgrade to panther on my desktop mac for FCP since I needed to redo my reel, and I was having QT problems, I think....

Now the graph editor is out in 7.5c....

Had I been in production with 3D and doing tutoirals in FCP, I would have stayed in jaguar...

From entirely just a paying customer's perspective, despite what chuck assures us, The mac support is clearly secondary, or suffers from a lack of resources... From the 7.5 b debacle, to the lack of a fix for 7.c on the mac in the imminet release of 8... On top of all that, 8 was going to be out in october, then late November, then in december, and now indefinitly in 2004, as far as I'm concerned...

The fact is that Apple releases OS changes that do sometimes drastic changes to certain foundation areas of OS-X.. however, everyone from Adobe to Kensington has released updates. Heck even the free utilities Menu Meters and Desktop manager (which recently changed authors I think!!!!) have released updates.. within weeks of panter's release. this says two things... yes that Panther was enough of a significant upgrade to affect alot of apps... it also says that everyone from Graphics giants to freeware have addressed this issue...

Now the Nt angle was that 8 was on the horizon.. why remove resources from that... the 'fanboy" in me says.. 'sure, plow forward, lets make 8 rock!!! the customer in me says, "why is that my problem. I prepaid for 8.0".

So , I'll make the humble assumption that its a resource issue...

So, what would it take for Newtek to have the resources to staff enough mac developers to stay on top of the ever changing mac OS updates (because I don't see this changing especial with the 32bit to 64bit transition in the works) and continue development of future LW releases....

perhaps it means charging for the x.5 releases.. its become part of the marketing engine at NT to state that they don't charge for point releases, isn;t that kewl!?!? But in turn we have the 7.5 b and the Panther debacle... don't go Hash on us NT....

I remember paying like $250 for just the hypervoxel feature... it was the first time that you were able to do volumes in LW, I mean that was a big deal at the time... i didn't have a problem paying for it....

I mean, I wouldn't have a problem paying $300-$400 for the x.5 release if it meant..

1) slightly faster development cycle
2) never again fearing an apple update knowing that there was an NT mac programmer as my guiding angel...
3) More consistancy in quality control regarding NT's own releases...
4) more consistancy in LW development.. i.e. being able to budget and plan for major architeture changes/or big features as far back as prior to the x.5 release and avoid the clunky, tacked on potpourri feel of alot of LW's features.. i.e this plugin for soft bodiy, that plugin for fur, etc... though i'm impressed with the integration of cloth, soft and hard FX so far....

I mean, lets be honest.. development Salaries aren't really going to go down.. at least not drastically... Competition in 3D apps is increasing, prices are decreasing.. in the case of maya, houdini and SI that means a growth in user base, I don't think its as significant in LW.

I mean, Photoshop had no problem charging for their x.5 releases... the last significant release for PS in my opinion was 5.0 to 7.0.. 8.0 should have been a 7.5... Heck, they charged $100 for their RAW compatability plug-in after v 7.0 knowing that it was hot and included it in 8.0, hence having to pay for it twice!!!!

meanwhile, Nt tries too hard to accomodate our wallets, and its appreciated, but the trade off are the problems with the mac releases.. I don't even count the 8 delay.. that happens to everybody... I would say, though, to never plan a release Q4 with the holidays and all... eeesh!!!

MStrickland
12-27-2003, 11:39 PM
Thanks for your reply. I've received personal email also, agreeing with the perspectives in my rant. One G5 user who is not able to run anything but Panther says he is being forced to move to Maya because of this. He points out the scores of other developers who have all released Panther-compatible patches for their products. (I don't mention this because I'm particularly in favor of Maya; I mention it only to point out that ignoring the real needs of your market has bottom-line consequences for YOU. It's not good for ANY LW user when Newtek turns turns its back on a segment of their market.)

So why isn't Newtek doing right by their Mac supporters and releasing a 7.5x patch for Panther?

Chuck? You there? How about some input from Newtek?

Michael

Scott Gammans
12-28-2003, 09:44 AM
Oh please. We've been screaming and hollering at NewTek for months to get them to say one way or another whether 7.5 will be patched for Panther with nary a peep from Chuck, other than his repeated assertions that NewTek is trying to decide what to do.

I'm not saying that Chuck is blowing smoke up our collective posteriors; I'm merely pointing out that the corporate decision-making process at NewTek apparently moves slower than tectonic plate shifts.

archiea
12-28-2003, 04:55 PM
well.. latley.. tectonic plates shifts haven't been slow!!! :mad:

Scott Gammans
12-28-2003, 06:50 PM
Er, sadly, yes... an unintended and perhaps poorly timed choice of metaphor on my part. Nonetheless the fact still remains that NewTek has taken an unconscionably long time to announce their decision regarding a patch for Panther/7.5. Does it really take more than two months to make a decision in South Texas?

watts
12-31-2003, 08:36 AM
hey archiea,

I'm one of those hacks (well, 10 yrs practice) that had a show in some of those places at the same time. We should chat & see if we crossed paths- there are a few things that I gotta know!

cw


Originally posted by archiea
yeah that does play a part....

But I think the problems plaguing our biz is on several fronts...

1) production: its become sloppier and sloppier.. with a more compressed shooting dates, more complex visual effect, and more hacks that call themselves visual effects sups..

snip

archiea
12-31-2003, 06:40 PM
watts as in chris watts?

watts
12-31-2003, 07:47 PM
Yeah that's me. Also known as cw at bake. org. I don't recall meeting any artists named archie, but certan facilities have a rule against letting the supervisor actually interact with the people doing the work.

cw

archiea
12-31-2003, 08:12 PM
Nope, we didn't work together... I was almost on Looney tunes at WB but the recruiters there are a bunch of fawk-ups. I guess you know Jimbo over there... would have been fun ... like the good old days... Since I finished on Dino and moved thoughout the different facilities, I've been shocked by what I've seen. and yeah.. that rule about VFX sups talking to artist.. I guess its a bit necessary with the size of the shows these days.. but then you can end up with a bad case of Chinese whipsers. On Dino.. during the shot reviews, it was the dir, the vfx sup and the artists.. with the production manager present wrangling control over time.. That worked best... Today, its layers and layers of people tripping over each other.. WTF?

I just met up with some boutique houses... and I'm starting to prefer the more intimate manner of working there.. and the efficiency....

What are you working on next?

Turner
12-31-2003, 10:50 PM
While you guys are busy hugging, let me remind you that the topic of this thread has become somewhat misleading...

Unsubscribing.....

now!

:p